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Direct Labour Advice. House build.

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  • 07-04-2020 8:52pm
    #1
    psmcano2
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭


    I am currently deciding wheather to go direct labour or contractor,

    - How much roughly did it cost to rent/buy scaffolding? and how was it signed off?
    - How much involvement did your engineer have throughout the build and visit the site? Did your architect also carry out the engineering work? or someone seperate?
    - Did you hire a project manager or do it alone?
    - Did you do your own research for pricing or get a Quantity surveyor? also in what detail did the quantity surveyor go into?
    - What kind of insurance was required or did each contractor have there own?

    - Going direct labour how much of your time was spent onsite..

    Any more info would be greatly appreciated
    Tagged:


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    #2
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,446 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    psmcano2 wrote: »
    I am currently deciding wheather to go direct labour or contractor,

    - How much roughly did it cost to rent/buy scaffolding? and how was it signed off?
    - How much involvement did your engineer have throughout the build and visit the site? Did your architect also carry out the engineering work? or someone seperate?
    - Did you hire a project manager or do it alone?
    - Did you do your own research for pricing or get a Quantity surveyor? also in what detail did the quantity surveyor go into?
    - What kind of insurance was required or did each contractor have there own?

    - Going direct labour how much of your time was spent onsite..

    Any more info would be greatly appreciated

    Have you any experience in construction?
    Do you really think you can make savings with time, quality and planning the build?

    What will you be doing 9-5?
    Can you dedicate yourself to the build or are you hoping to work your normal 9-5 then try arrange the build in the evenings and weekends?


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    #3
    madmac187
    Registered Users Posts: 652 ✭✭✭madmac187


    Gumbo wrote: »
    Have you any experience in construction?
    Do you really think you can make savings with time, quality and planning the build?

    What will you be doing 9-5?
    Can you dedicate yourself to the build or are you hoping to work your normal 9-5 then try arrange the build in the evenings and weekends?


    To be very honest mate, I’m a site manager with a top 5 construction firm and I didn’t even have the time or want the stress of direct labour. In the self build unless you have mates or a trade yourself or family in a couple of trades I would bite the bullet and get a builder. Small **** up or missed material can cost the time or loss the saving.


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    #4
    The chan chan man
    Registered Users Posts: 824 ✭✭✭The chan chan man


    I say this with almost 20 years experience in structural engineering design and please don’t take offence - you will make a balls of this.


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    #5
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,446 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    madmac187 wrote: »
    To be very honest mate, I’m a site manager with a top 5 construction firm and I didn’t even have the time or want the stress of direct labour. In the self build unless you have mates or a trade yourself or family in a couple of trades I would bite the bullet and get a builder. Small **** up or missed material can cost the time or loss the saving.

    Think you quoted me by mistake.


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    #6
    madmac187
    Registered Users Posts: 652 ✭✭✭madmac187


    The chan chan man wrote: »
    I say this with almost 20 years experience in structural engineering design and please don’t take offence - you will make a balls of this.

    Bluntly yup get a builder an engineer for your sign offs and be happy you have one head to Pat and one arse to kick if it ain’t right.


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    #7
    rampantbunny
    Registered Users Posts: 907 ✭✭✭rampantbunny


    Sorry, not answering your specific questions.

    Most recent build project I followed is documented here. Worth a read towards the latter end. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057669142

    Unlike most other posters I'm not in the industry, but I did self-build. Was it tough, yes. Worth it, yes. Enjoyed it for the most part.
    You might be perfectly capable of running a project like this. Your job might actually require managing large projects every day of the week. But one thing rarely mentioned (if ever) in response to this kind of query is how you are going to manage the people employed to deliver your build.
    I don't think it is any revelation to suggest that you're going to meet more than your fair share of professionals that simply won't share your enthusiasm, your standards or expectations. This was the single hardest part of my self-build project.

    This is a construction forum so most self-builders don't want to post anything too inflammatory on here but that's my 2c. If you are capable and are confident you will get tradesmen that meet your standards, a self-build project is tough but rewarding. Otherwise, get a builder.


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    #8
    rampantbunny
    Registered Users Posts: 907 ✭✭✭rampantbunny


    psmcano2 wrote: »
    I am currently deciding wheather to go direct labour or contractor,

    - How much roughly did it cost to rent/buy scaffolding? and how was it signed off?
    - How much involvement did your engineer have throughout the build and visit the site? Did your architect also carry out the engineering work? or someone seperate?
    - Did you hire a project manager or do it alone?
    - Did you do your own research for pricing or get a Quantity surveyor? also in what detail did the quantity surveyor go into?
    - What kind of insurance was required or did each contractor have there own?

    - Going direct labour how much of your time was spent onsite..

    Any more info would be greatly appreciated

    Now to answer you specific questions:
    1. Scaffolding: bought it outright and sold it again afterwards. I knew I would be taking my time on the build and hiring made no sense. Hire price for 10 weeks I think was around €2k. Purchase price approx €2500 from neighbor including boards. Sold it on for €2k. Guy who erected it with me had certification (worked for scaffolding company himself).
    2. Engineer; very very little onsite involvement (presumably because it was a self-build). Very particular about some things (e.g. percolation layout) but less about others (hollow-core support). Sent a proxy to site sometimes or just asked for photos. Did not hire engineer myself but inherited from Architect.
    3. Project Manager; was looking into it but at the time of build no one interested in taking on self-build.
    4. Research on pricing; did my own. Decided against QS because pace of my build was slow (my choice) so QS prices would have been redundant come purchase time. When possible I did price and bought in advance because most proces increase not decrease generally.
      Secondly, did not know what finishes we wanted so impossible to give a QS enough detail to work with.
    5. Insurance: need to organize your own self-build insurance (google). Trades must have their own insurance also.
    6. Time spent on site; every minute I could spare. Sometimes drove 40 mile round-trip during lunch to check things. Came across a roofer trying to nick stuff from site, a delivery of limestone window sills smashed to bits coming off truck, a stone-mason having kicked a stone through a window in frustration..I'll stop there, but point is you need to be there.
      Having one trade onsite at a time is also an approach to consider, otherwise if something goes wrong 'the other lad must have done it' is what you'll deal with.

    If I had my time back I would do it again, but I'd spend time looking for someone to not necessarily manage the build but to be onsite to keep an eye on things. Someone to bark at the lad doing the groundwork that spends most of the day on the phone, or the lads that decide you have too much scaffolding and you might appreciate if they took some off your hands. You don't relinquish control, you manage everything, but you have a contrary article on-site to keep lads honest.


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    #9
    psmcano2
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭psmcano2


    rampantbunny wrote: »
    Now to answer you specific questions:
    1. Scaffolding: bought it outright and sold it again afterwards. I knew I would be taking my time on the build and hiring made no sense. Hire price for 10 weeks I think was around €2k. Purchase price approx €2500 from neighbor including boards. Sold it on for €2k. Guy who erected it with me had certification (worked for scaffolding company himself).
    2. Engineer; very very little onsite involvement (presumably because it was a self-build). Very particular about some things (e.g. percolation layout) but less about others (hollow-core support). Sent a proxy to site sometimes or just asked for photos. Did not hire engineer myself but inherited from Architect.
    3. Project Manager; was looking into it but at the time of build no one interested in taking on self-build.
    4. Research on pricing; did my own. Decided against QS because pace of my build was slow (my choice) so QS prices would have been redundant come purchase time. When possible I did price and bought in advance because most proces increase not decrease generally.
      Secondly, did not know what finishes we wanted so impossible to give a QS enough detail to work with.
    5. Insurance: need to organize your own self-build insurance (google). Trades must have their own insurance also.
    6. Time spent on site; every minute I could spare. Sometimes drove 40 mile round-trip during lunch to check things. Came across a roofer trying to nick stuff from site, a delivery of limestone window sills smashed to bits coming off truck, a stone-mason having kicked a stone through a window in frustration..I'll stop there, but point is you need to be there.
      Having one trade onsite at a time is also an approach to consider, otherwise if something goes wrong 'the other lad must have done it' is what you'll deal with.

    If I had my time back I would do it again, but I'd spend time looking for someone to not necessarily manage the build but to be onsite to keep an eye on things. Someone to bark at the lad doing the groundwork that spends most of the day on the phone, or the lads that decide you have too much scaffolding and you might appreciate if they took some off your hands. You don't relinquish control, you manage everything, but you have a contrary article on-site to keep lads honest.


    Thanks for answering my questions! Thats exactly the sort of answer I was looking for.
    My job is flexible and I do have someone who will be on site every day to keep an eye also.
    I am not in any rush or have a timeframe to get the house complete so that is not an issue. I'm sure it will be very rewarding in the end.


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    #10
    madmac187
    Registered Users Posts: 652 ✭✭✭madmac187


    rampantbunny wrote: »
    Now to answer you specific questions:
    1. Scaffolding: bought it outright and sold it again afterwards. I knew I would be taking my time on the build and hiring made no sense. Hire price for 10 weeks I think was around €2k. Purchase price approx €2500 from neighbor including boards. Sold it on for €2k. Guy who erected it with me had certification (worked for scaffolding company himself).
    2. Engineer; very very little onsite involvement (presumably because it was a self-build). Very particular about some things (e.g. percolation layout) but less about others (hollow-core support). Sent a proxy to site sometimes or just asked for photos. Did not hire engineer myself but inherited from Architect.
    3. Project Manager; was looking into it but at the time of build no one interested in taking on self-build.
    4. Research on pricing; did my own. Decided against QS because pace of my build was slow (my choice) so QS prices would have been redundant come purchase time. When possible I did price and bought in advance because most proces increase not decrease generally.
      Secondly, did not know what finishes we wanted so impossible to give a QS enough detail to work with.
    5. Insurance: need to organize your own self-build insurance (google). Trades must have their own insurance also.
    6. Time spent on site; every minute I could spare. Sometimes drove 40 mile round-trip during lunch to check things. Came across a roofer trying to nick stuff from site, a delivery of limestone window sills smashed to bits coming off truck, a stone-mason having kicked a stone through a window in frustration..I'll stop there, but point is you need to be there.
      Having one trade onsite at a time is also an approach to consider, otherwise if something goes wrong 'the other lad must have done it' is what you'll deal with.

    If I had my time back I would do it again, but I'd spend time looking for someone to not necessarily manage the build but to be onsite to keep an eye on things. Someone to bark at the lad doing the groundwork that spends most of the day on the phone, or the lads that decide you have too much scaffolding and you might appreciate if they took some off your hands. You don't relinquish control, you manage everything, but you have a contrary article on-site to keep lads honest.

    I’m interested to hear about the roofer robbing stuff, what he try to take and what you do to him when paying him and same for the mason. I’m intrigued tbh


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    #11
    rampantbunny
    Registered Users Posts: 907 ✭✭✭rampantbunny


    madmac187 wrote: »
    I’m interested to hear about the roofer robbing stuff, what he try to take and what you do to him when paying him and same for the mason. I’m intrigued tbh

    Sorry OP, off topic.
    Roofer was second roofer onsite. Technical issue with slates so needed them replaced. Existing slates were to be disposed of. New roofer didn't want to spend time salvaging them even though I was prepared to pay and also let him keep half.
    Come time to do the job, he tried to take all the salvaged slates. Brought a trailer to site with some equipment but loaded slates into the van during the day when no one around (an effort to hide the slates maybe?). IMO, the slates were mine. Technically they belonged to the slate company but I'd already asked if any problem me re-using them on old shed and they agreed. Neighbor had same batch of slates and he kept all his. I wasn't being greedy, just needed enough for small job.
    Roofer had charged for skip hire (multiple) so was creaming money for this and other sundries not needed. I'd no problem with these bits, I'm sure it is the done thing..but taking the slates...a dick move.
    Confronted him about it. Told me he was disposing of them but relented and said he wanted them himself. I asked for remaining slates on garage..that's all I wanted and that was agreed. Days later he was leaving site with the slates in the van. Turned him around and told him to unload. Couldn't threaten to not pay him because he was being paid directly but the roofing company which IMO is a complete ass-ways process.
    Job all done and moved on..discovered 30 scaffolding planks missing. No proof but only trade onsite at the time.

    Stonemason; well, that man had some issues of his own. He paid for the glazing but couldn't fix the damaged alu frame. He did a top class job but needed to be handled with gloves.

    You meet all sorts when building. You could say like any job, but I've worked in about 8 different companies here and in UK. No, you don't meet anywhere near the characters you'll meeting on the Irish building site.


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    #12
    arctictree
    Registered Users Posts: 4,285 ✭✭✭arctictree


    We just finished a house build. Started April '19 and moved in just before XMas. Getting a trusted builder was the best decision we ever made. Contract was 6 stages and builder only paid when architect signed off each stage. No advance payments. The only thing we had to do during the build phase was choose slates, windows, doors etc. If you have a good builder thats paid in contractual stages then in my opinion you dont need a PM. Its in the builders interest to get the work done well and fast. Also, I think we actually saved money in the long term.


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    #13
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    arctictree wrote: »
    We just finished a house build. Started April '19 and moved in just before XMas. Getting a trusted builder was the best decision we ever made. Contract was 6 stages and builder only paid when architect signed off each stage. No advance payments. The only thing we had to do during the build phase was choose slates, windows, doors etc. If you have a good builder thats paid in contractual stages then in my opinion you dont need a PM. Its in the builders interest to get the work done well and fast. Also, I think we actually saved money in the long term.

    Can you give us a break down of costs? Sounds like the arch provided full service and if you only selected the above s/he had full reign.

    Edit: what was included / not included and where in the country is the house?

    Thanks


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    #14
    arctictree
    Registered Users Posts: 4,285 ✭✭✭arctictree


    BryanF wrote: »
    Can you give us a break down of costs? Sounds like the arch provided full service and if you only selected the above s/he had full reign.

    Edit: what was included / not included and where in the country is the house?

    Thanks

    Architect designed the house and submitted planning. He then provided builders drawings and a contract for the build. He then signed off on each stage. There was very little input from him during the build, I think apart from the stage visits about 3 or 4 phone calls.

    House was built to standard builders finish Inc bathroom sanitryware. We arranged the tiling, flooring and kitchen. House is in Wicklow and price was about 120/sq ft.


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