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Vegan , concerned about deficiencies , confused about the science

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  • 17-12-2018 4:04pm
    #1
    barrymanilow
    Registered Users Posts: 548 ✭✭✭


    I have been Vegan about a year but am becoming a little concerned about deficiencies , particularly omega 3s , Iron , healthy fats. I fell down a youtube hole of ex vegans who put up videos saying why they quit. That didn't help.
    Either did Joe Rogans podcasts where he suggests Vegans need animal cholesterol and that the iron for plant sources isn't bioavailable.

    Obviously I know where peoples allegiances will fall on this particular forum. I am a vegan who is looking for the healthiest way I can live my life without harming or killing animals to do it. But to be honest I am extremely confused by the amount of anti vegan articles and contradictory pro vegan articles out there on the internet.

    It seems that there is an enormous amount of misinformation out there . There has to be. For every well written article confidently citing studies that show how veganism is a fundamentally flawed road to malnutrition I can find an equal number defending it. They can't both be right.

    You'd expect that being Vegan Id naturally just be biased toward the pro Vegan stuff but I have to suspect that just like the anti vegans are capable of propoganda so are the Vegan sources. I can't ignore the possibility that there is some vegan propaganda out there too.

    For an average time strapped joe like me who is not a nutritionist and is average to lazy about cooking/food prep it is very confusing and a bit daunting to wade through this stuff and try to figure out what is BS what is true and what I need to eat and how much of it so that I don't get "dementia " down the line .

    See perfect example of what I mean in this article below suggesting vegans can't get creatine from plant sources(thought it was something rugby lads took in the 90s) and that I must pop a microalage supplement while simultaneosuly managing the ration of my omega 6 unless I want to get , heart disease, obesity, depression, and cancer if you don't mind.

    https://tonic.vice.com/en_us/article/gqynxw/the-fatal-flaw-of-the-vegan-diet

    Reading stuff like that makes me feel that staying healthy on a Vegan diet is difficult and at least very high maintenance , and almost has me thinking about going back to dairy and eggs as I don't have the discipline to be ordering loads of supplements and tracking my omega 6 to omega 3 ratio while working out my absorption ratio from milled chia.

    It feels like when the climate change debate first kicked off. There was confusion and misinformation but eventually the scientific consensus was reached and know we all know where we stand and climate change deniers are easily defeated with fact and clear evidence.

    With this Vegan V Ominivore debate I don't feel like we have reached that stage of decisive scientific consensus yet. We are still in the initial confusing stage where both sides are making bold claims and backing it up with their own carefully selected interpretations of this study or that from somewhere or another.

    Has anyone got a very simplified guide or a link to one on how to do veganism safely and reasonably conveniently ? If you could share that I would be very grateful.


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    #2
    davidjtaylor
    Registered Users Posts: 755 ✭✭✭davidjtaylor


    barrymanilow wrote: »
    Obviously I know where peoples allegiances will fall on this particular forum.

    The most vocal are anti-vegan.


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    #3
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    https://www.vegansociety.com/society/whos-involved/partners/british-dietetic-association

    Might be of some help.


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    #4
    Gumbi
    Registered Users Posts: 4,698 ✭✭✭Gumbi


    Michael Greger's Daily Dozen is a good starting point. There are nutrients on a vegan diet which are harder to get than on an omnivorous one, so one needs to account for that accordingly.

    Iron isn't a major issue. Make sure you have vitamin C rich foods with your iron foods (ie fruit with oatmeal, peppers or tomato sauce with beans etc etc it's basically by default if you're eating whole foods).

    Omega 3s, have some ground flax/ chia daily. In your oatmeal or a smoothie is good. A tablespoon is a good amount, but even a teaspoon counts. Getting Omega 6 fat is incidental, and not something one needs to worry about. Some might need to consider a DHA supplement as they get older.

    Dark green leafies (think kale) are loaded with calcium, and typically absorb better than the calcium from milk.

    Creatine is not an essential nutrient, nor is carnitine. The latter of which we make ourselves. Creatine is found in very small amounts in red meat and other foods. It's not necessary.

    Don't over think things. Stick to whole plant foods as much as possible and you'll be fine. Like I said above, Greger's Daily Dozen is a very good starting place.


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    #5
    davidjtaylor
    Registered Users Posts: 755 ✭✭✭davidjtaylor


    I agree about not over-thinking things. A full blood test every few years might be a good idea but essentially, eat as wide a variety of food as possible, incuding a proportion of raw food either as salads or smoothies/juices.

    The omega 3 hysteria is a bit daft overall - modern humans get too much omega 6 rather than too little omega 3. It’s balance that counts. There’s no money in getting people to cut back omega 6 intake!


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    #6
    Gumbi
    Registered Users Posts: 4,698 ✭✭✭Gumbi


    davidjtaylor wrote: »
    I agree about not over-thinking things. A full blood test every few years might be a good idea but essentially, eat as wide a variety of food as possible, incuding a proportion of raw food either as salads or smoothies/juices.

    The omega 3 hysteria is a bit daft overall - modern humans get too much omega 6 rather than too little omega 3. It’s balance that counts. There’s no money in getting people to cut back omega 6 intake!

    I partly agree with the second part. Most people do get too much Omega 6 (it competes with the enzyme that we use to make EPA/DHA from Omega 3 ALA, but there isn't much evidence to suggest we need a "balance".


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    #7
    davidjtaylor
    Registered Users Posts: 755 ✭✭✭davidjtaylor


    I go by Stephen Walsh's Plant Based Nutrition and Health. It might be out of print; you used to be able to buy if from The Vegan Society. You might want to search out a second-hand copy or get it from the library. It is (IMO) by far the most useful book ever on following a vegan lifestyle.

    His entries on omegas 3, 6 and 9 are too involved to replicate here in full but, in summary, certain omega-6s inhibit absorption of certain omega-3s. To quote:
    Linoleic acid intake should be around three times alpha-linolenic acid intake to ensure a good supply of all the omega-3s. The recommended 1% to 2% of calories as alpha-linolenic acid combined with 4% to 5% of calories as linoleic acid gives a good balance between the benefits of both without leading to excessive polyunsaturate intake.

    All vegans should have this book to hand and all critics of veganism should read it too - with their usual open mind of course. :rolleyes:


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    #8
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    barrymanilow wrote: »
    I have been Vegan about a year but am becoming a little concerned about deficiencies , particularly omega 3s , Iron , healthy fats. I fell down a youtube hole of ex vegans who put up videos saying why they quit. That didn't help.
    Either did Joe Rogans podcasts where he suggests Vegans need animal cholesterol and that the iron for plant sources isn't bioavailable.

    Why are you becoming concerned? Have you reason to be or are you just thinking about it? If you want to eat more of something like Iron, just look up what foods have that. You could also try and put your diet into myfitnesspal or chronometer and see how you are doing. I'm not sure why anybody would listen to Joe Rogan of all people for nutritional advice. Your body create cholesterol, it doesn't need to eat it. It's quite a controversy if eating it at all can be bad for you. As for iron, what he means is that non-heme iron is less bioavailable than heme iron, not an issue for people generally. If you are concerned you should go get a blood test and see if there is anything amiss. You can ask the doctor to test for whatever you want.
    Obviously I know where peoples allegiances will fall on this particular forum. I am a vegan who is looking for the healthiest way I can live my life without harming or killing animals to do it. But to be honest I am extremely confused by the amount of anti vegan articles and contradictory pro vegan articles out there on the internet.

    It seems that there is an enormous amount of misinformation out there . There has to be. For every well written article confidently citing studies that show how veganism is a fundamentally flawed road to malnutrition I can find an equal number defending it. They can't both be right.

    You'd expect that being Vegan Id naturally just be biased toward the pro Vegan stuff but I have to suspect that just like the anti vegans are capable of propoganda so are the Vegan sources. I can't ignore the possibility that there is some vegan propaganda out there too.

    For an average time strapped joe like me who is not a nutritionist and is average to lazy about cooking/food prep it is very confusing and a bit daunting to wade through this stuff and try to figure out what is BS what is true and what I need to eat and how much of it so that I don't get "dementia " down the line .
    For the average Joe all you have to do is ask, what do the actual dietary organisations say? They all say being vegan is completely healthy. These people have all looked at the science, from countries around the world and all the organisations say it's fine. At that stage it doesn't matter what some internet articles say either way. You're way overthinking it, simply eat your diet that you consider healthy and get a check up every year or two. By even thinking about this stuff you are ahead of 90% of people. You can also look to sports stars, body builders, formula one, NFL, NBA, Tennis, weight lifting and so on that are vegan.
    See perfect example of what I mean in this article below suggesting vegans can't get creatine from plant sources(thought it was something rugby lads took in the 90s) and that I must pop a microalage supplement while simultaneosuly managing the ration of my omega 6 unless I want to get , heart disease, obesity, depression, and cancer if you don't mind.

    https://tonic.vice.com/en_us/article/gqynxw/the-fatal-flaw-of-the-vegan-diet

    Reading stuff like that makes me feel that staying healthy on a Vegan diet is difficult and at least very high maintenance , and almost has me thinking about going back to dairy and eggs as I don't have the discipline to be ordering loads of supplements and tracking my omega 6 to omega 3 ratio while working out my absorption ratio from milled chia.

    It feels like when the climate change debate first kicked off. There was confusion and misinformation but eventually the scientific consensus was reached and know we all know where we stand and climate change deniers are easily defeated with fact and clear evidence.

    With this Vegan V Ominivore debate I don't feel like we have reached that stage of decisive scientific consensus yet. We are still in the initial confusing stage where both sides are making bold claims and backing it up with their own carefully selected interpretations of this study or that from somewhere or another.

    Has anyone got a very simplified guide or a link to one on how to do veganism safely and reasonably conveniently ? If you could share that I would be very grateful.
    Stop reading articles from random crap sites, first of all. Why makes you think anything from any site is right or wrong? There is going to be more and more push back as many people are going vegan, as they currently are in droves. A lot of people won't like it and a lot of new vegans will spout crap too. Like, you can't get creatine from plant sources, but it doesn't matter. It's not essential and your body produces it. I haven't eaten any in 15 years and it's always on the high side of average on my blood tests. If you ate eggs and dairy you'd just have the same issues, you'd start looking up your ratios, your cholesterol intake, your fat intake, that 90% of dietary cholesterol studies are funded by the egg industry. It's your thought process that is making things rough on you, not any particular diet.


    You'll find this book good: https://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Not-Die-Discover-scientifically/dp/1509852506/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1545133412&sr=8-1&keywords=how+not+to+die

    read it, eat healthy foods, mostly plants and legumes, less oil and sugar, be happy.


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    #9
    Effects
    Registered Users Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭Effects


    barrymanilow wrote: »
    Either did Joe Rogans podcasts where he suggests Vegans need animal cholesterol and that the iron for plant sources isn't bioavailable.

    I'd take Joe's advice with a pinch of salt, he takes steroids himself.


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    #10
    Gumbi
    Registered Users Posts: 4,698 ✭✭✭Gumbi


    Effects wrote: »
    I'd take Joe's advice with a pinch of salt, he takes steroids himself.

    Joe has terrible dietary advice, but it has nothing to do with the fact he takes steroids.


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    #11
    Effects
    Registered Users Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭Effects


    Gumbi wrote: »
    Joe has terrible dietary advice, but it has nothing to do with the fact he takes steroids.

    I'd say the two are linked. If he's ok with taking steroids then I wouldn't put a huge amount of faith in his dietary advice.


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    #12
    Gumbi
    Registered Users Posts: 4,698 ✭✭✭Gumbi


    Effects wrote: »
    I'd say the two are linked. If he's ok with taking steroids then I wouldn't put a huge amount of faith in his dietary advice.

    Very possible, but in theory the two are mutually exclusive.


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    #13
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    davidjtaylor wrote: »
    The most vocal are anti-vegan.

    Far from it imo ...


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