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Suicide

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,869 ✭✭✭Happyilylost


    Sorry this is long. Can't post the link. This would be a big worry I have mental health services in the Hse. It's an article from the Connacht Tribune. I think about it often what this family went through.

    "The mother of a 25-year-old man who died by suicide told an inquest into his death she was looking for help but didn’t get it.

    The man, with an address on the outskirts of Galway city, took his own life in November, 2016, following his discharge a month earlier from University Hospital Galway’s Psychiatric Unit.

    His mother told Coroner for Galway West, Dr Ciarán MacLoughlin, that her son was admitted to hospital on September 21, 2017 and was an in-patient for 18 days.

    She was critical of the decision to discharge her son and, in particular, the lack of notice given to her that he would be coming home.

    She said she had tried to meet with hospital staff but had been left waiting so long on one occasion, she had to return to work.

    “I was surprised when they rang and told me he was being discharged; nobody asked did he have somewhere to go.

    “Yes, he was an adult, but he was still a sick adult,†she said.

    She told the Coroner’s Court that once her son left the hospital, he refused to take the medication that had been prescribed for him.

    “He wasn’t willing to go to the pharmacy to get medication – he just wasn’t right,†she said. “He thought this medication was killing him.â€

    Consultant Psychiatrist, Dr Camilla Hennelly, treated the deceased at hospital during his admission in September 2017.

    Speaking to the inquest, Dr Hennelly said he was a self-referred patient and that it had been his first presentation to the services.

    “He presented with a three- month history of low mood, poor appetite, broken sleep and paranoid and suicidal ideation.

    “He had been drinking for two years previously culminating in low mood,†said Dr Hennelly.

    “He was abstinent on presentation for a period of two to three months,†she added.

    She said he had been on anti-depressants but compliance had been an issue and he could not recall the name of them when asked.

    In the early stages of his admission, he was placed on level two observations which involved him being checked every 15 minutes by a psychiatric nurse.

    He was also prescribed anti-depressants and anti-psychotic drugs, explained Dr Hennelly.

    “He engaged with the therapist and a recovery care plan was put in place and this was discussed with his mother.

    “He denied any cravings for alcohol during his admission and on September 25, following review by me, I increased his anti-depression medication,†said Dr Hennelly.

    She said on October 2, his depression symptoms were abating, as was his suicidal ideation.

    “By October 9, I was satisfied that he should be discharged for therapeutic reasons,†said Dr Hennelly, before explaining that certain services are not available to psychiatric patients while they remain in hospital.

    He was advised to attend the day hospital and group therapy sessions and was told of the importance of taking any medication prescribed for him.

    Coroner, Dr MacLoughlin, said it was all very well to say he wasn’t displaying psychosis at this point.

    “He was dead within a month by his own hand.

    “There seems to me an awful lot of concern by his mother and it would appear that concern wasn’t taken on board by a lot of other people,†said Dr MacLoughlin.

    His mother said her son did not leave the house for a month after discharge; had been so afraid at night that he was sleeping in the bed with her; and he refused to take any medication.

    She said she had tried to contact Dr Hennelly at one point but she was on leave and her call was never returned.

    Dr Hennelly said she was never made aware that her patient’s mother had called upon her return.

    The deceased’s mother said she had reached despair on October 13 and called for an ambulance, only for the paramedics to inform her that because her son would not go willingly to hospital with them, it would be up to his GP or the Gardaí to sign him in.

    “The ambulance person rang the GP to ask him to sign [my son] into hospital but the GP refused and said I have nothing to do with that and to ring the Guards,†she said.

    Giving evidence, the deceased’s GP, Dr Denis Higgins, said he had no record of that call and while it could have been taken by another GP at his practice, he personally did not speak to any paramedic.

    The mother said she would seek to find the paramedic to corroborate her story, should the Coroner allow it.

    Legal Counsel for the HSE, Imelda Tierney, said that the deceased had been engaging with the services after his discharge from UHG.

    “He had an 18 day stay in hospital – that is not often the case. He received detailed treatment over that 18 days.

    “He returned to an appointment on October 18 so he was engaging with the system,†said Ms Tierney.

    Coroner, Dr MacLoughlin, said it seemed his mother had a deep insight into the problems her son faced.

    “Ms Tierney, what you are really saying is that all the professionals thought he was alright and the only person who knew how sick he was, was his mother – and who was right?

    “I feel it is incumbent on me to make enquiries on this and see what the general attitude in the hospital is to this,†said Dr MacLoughlin.

    He said he would give the deceased’s mother the time she needed to find the paramedic whom she said had called the doctor.

    “I will reserve a verdict and any rider or recommendation until such a time as we have heard complete evidence. We will reconvene on June 28/29,†said Dr MacLoughlin."


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Regional West Moderators Posts: 60,481 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gremlinertia


    Article today in journal about the ratio of spend on medication versus counselling, it makes all the right points but there just isn't the staff out there to provide counselling in the capacity it is required http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/we-spend-e400-million-each-year-on-drugs-while-only-e10-million-is-spent-on-counselling-4059296-Jun2018/

    Medication alone is tough, it can make things seem worse, then you stop meds and it snowballs. I've survived that, twice, it's all repeating itself again now due to lack of staff. A counsellor or psychiatrist or psychologist can't afford to work for free yet access to that sort of help is expensive. I feel awful for people with problems, HSE frontline staff and other people in the service that carry a burden of guilt despite no fault. Suicide is what it is.. You are in a high building, it's on fire and the flames are starting to burn your ass, jump or roast?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,175 ✭✭✭dense


    There's a difference between suicide, and assisted suicide.


    I wasn't talking about assisted suicide, I'm saying I should have the right to choose when to end my life without others interfering.

    Why is suicide so unacceptable in a liberal, modern society?
    Why don't we respect and facilitate the choice in the same way as you must respect my choice to turn up for work in a dress and wearing make up tomorrow?

    I've just seen another poster being admonished for taking too great an interest in someone else's business, yet what business is it of a stranger's if someone has taken their own life?

    Sorry but I just don't get this outpouring of sympathy and concern over suicides.

    Nor do I get this thing of strangers trying to force people they know nothing about to continue on with something that they have decided they've had enough of.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,203 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    dense wrote: »
    I wasn't talking about assisted suicide, I'm saying I should have the right to choose when to end my life without others interfering.


    Suicide hasn't been a criminal offence since 1993. There's no legal impediment to anyone who chooses to take their own life.

    Why is suicide so unacceptable in a liberal, modern society?


    I would have thought this was obvious - because people endeavour to prevent people from suffering. One of the most common misconceptions about people who take their own lives is that they wanted to die. From accounts of people who have survived the attempt, they didn't want to die, they just wanted an end to their suffering.

    Why don't we respect and facilitate the choice in the same way as you must respect my choice to turn up for work in a dress and wearing make up tomorrow?


    They're not even comparable circumstances on any level.

    I've just seen another poster being admonished for taking too great an interest in someone else's business, yet what business is it of a stranger's if someone has taken their own life?


    I actually agree with you on this one. I think it should be nobody else's business but the family if a person takes their own life. There are some people of course who argue that information should be released to the public, but I think the cause of anyone's death should be a private matter unless they died under suspicious circumstances or foul play is suspected by the authorities.

    Sorry but I just don't get this outpouring of sympathy and concern over suicides.


    That's fair enough, you don't have anything to apologise for. If you don't get it, you don't. I don't think it's worth trying to explain it. Everyone is different I guess.

    Nor do I get this thing of strangers trying to force people they know nothing about to continue on with something that they have decided they've had enough of.


    I don't think the idea is that they want a person to continue to suffer, the whole idea of suicide prevention is to try and alleviate peoples suffering to prevent them from getting to the point where they decide they've had enough.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Regional West Moderators Posts: 60,481 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gremlinertia


    Saying someone can’t be sad because someone else may have it worse is like saying someone can’t be happy because someone else may have it better


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,440 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Suicide hasn't been a criminal offence since 1993. There's no legal impediment to anyone who chooses to take their own life.
    But there are legal impediments to helping someone to take their own life, even if that person is physically unable to take that action themself

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/gail-o-rorke-found-not-guilty-of-helping-friend-take-her-own-life-1.2191803


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,175 ✭✭✭dense


    But there are legal impediments to helping someone to take their own life, even if that person is physically unable to take that action themself

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/gail-o-rorke-found-not-guilty-of-helping-friend-take-her-own-life-1.2191803

    So in reality, the option to end one's life is refused to someone who is physically incapable of ending their own life.


    What a modern, liberal, pro choice country this is.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Jesus. Hopefully the bully in Munster Joinery will at the very least be outed after this employee took his own life. Workplace bullies really are a cancer who have been tolerated and protected for far too long:

    Widow of man who took his own life says he experienced 'relentless bullying at work' - inquest hears


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,175 ✭✭✭dense


    Jesus. Hopefully the bully in Munster Joinery will at the very least be outed after this employee took his own life. Workplace bullies really are a cancer who have been tolerated and protected for far too long:

    Widow of man who took his own life says he experienced 'relentless bullying at work' - inquest hears

    The danger of your hoping he or she will be outed is that he or she might end up doing the same thing as a possible result of not being able to cope with being "outed".


  • Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭speckled_park


    Jesus. Hopefully the bully in Munster Joinery will at the very least be outed after this employee took his own life. Workplace bullies really are a cancer who have been tolerated and protected for far too long:

    Widow of man who took his own life says he experienced 'relentless bullying at work' - inquest hears

    That bully is a pure scumbag >:[


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  • Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭speckled_park


    dense wrote: »
    The danger of your hoping he or she will be outed is that he or she might end up doing the same thing as a possible result of not being able to cope with being "outed".

    A fair point but if you dont point out this coward whats stopping him from just picking on someone else who may be vunerable? Fck him, he knows well what hes doing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,168 ✭✭✭Ursus Horribilis


    I had the misfortune of working with a bully who remained in her job because of an incompetent HR department. The lack of self awareness that some of these people have is astonishing. I heard this bullying cow dismiss the story of a suicidal teenager as "mental illness". It took everything I had that day not to tear her a new one.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,010 ✭✭✭La.de.da


    I had the misfortune of working with a bully who remained in her job because of an incompetent HR department. The lack of self awareness that some of these people have is astonishing. I heard this bullying cow dismiss the story of a suicidal teenager as "mental illness". It took everything I had that day not to tear her a new one.

    It amazes me the amount of bullying that goes on in workplaces. I often wonder if those people were bullies as children.
    Can't abide it. The scaring it leaves is awful.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,858 ✭✭✭Church on Tuesday


    Bullies are mere cowards, in a way they are to be pitied.

    They project the many faults they have upon their chosen victim.

    They are best ignored or failing that told in no uncertain terms that they will not be tolerated.

    They are nothing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,482 ✭✭✭Gimme A Pound


    A fair point but if you dont point out this coward whats stopping him from just picking on someone else who may be vunerable? Fck him, he knows well what hes doing.
    I bet they'll never do it again - not because they feel bad for their target, but because they feel bad for themselves.
    I had the misfortune of working with a bully who remained in her job because of an incompetent HR department. The lack of self awareness that some of these people have is astonishing. I heard this bullying cow dismiss the story of a suicidal teenager as "mental illness". It took everything I had that day not to tear her a new one.
    I don't doubt she was a bullying **** but was what she said not correct?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    dense wrote: »
    The danger of your hoping he or she will be outed is that he or she might end up doing the same thing as a possible result of not being able to cope with being "outed".

    Someone like that deserves what they get, even if they do it themselves. Wouldn't have one ounce of sympathy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,168 ✭✭✭Ursus Horribilis


    La.de.da wrote: »
    It amazes me the amount of bullying that goes on in workplaces. I often wonder if those people were bullies as children.
    Can't abide it. The scaring it leaves is awful.

    It's not helped by the way HR deals with it. They made a bollix of it where I worked and I'm not sure the end result improved anyone's lot. I've heard equally bad stories from friends' workplaces. It seems to be rare that a bully gets a P45 and they work out ways to be more subtle. The issue just rumbles on until someone leaves.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,168 ✭✭✭Ursus Horribilis


    I bet they'll never do it again - not because they feel bad for their target, but because they feel bad for themselves.

    I don't doubt she was a bullying **** but was what she said not correct?

    To a point, perhaps. It's facile to simply dismiss a victim of bullying as being merely mentally ill though. It's an easy out and a way not to accept responsibility for their actions. While I'm sure there are people who take their own lives because they're very mentally ill, there are others who just get worn down because of bullies or the way certain people treat them. They lose perspective and become so distressed it seems to be a solution.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,482 ✭✭✭Gimme A Pound


    To a point, perhaps. It's facile to simply dismiss a victim of bullying as being merely mentally ill though. It's an easy out and a way not to accept responsibility for their actions. While I'm sure there are people who take their own lives because they're very mentally ill, there are others who just get worn down because of bullies or the way certain people treat them. They lose perspective and become so distressed it seems to be a solution.
    Ah ok, so the kid was suicidal because of that weapon bullying them, not just because they had their own problems?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,168 ✭✭✭Ursus Horribilis


    I think you're mixing things up a bit. The weapon was bullying an adult colleague in our office. Someone who's still alive but was damaged by her behaviour. Some of these people can be very cunning.
    One day a conversation came up about some teenage kid who'd died locally and she started pontificating. The hypocrisy was sickening.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,482 ✭✭✭Gimme A Pound


    I think you're mixing things up a bit. The weapon was bullying an adult colleague in our office. Someone who's still alive but was damaged by her behaviour. Some of these people can be very cunning.
    One day a conversation came up about some teenage kid who'd died locally and she started pontificating. The hypocrisy was sickening.
    Oh yeah the type who'd be posting anti bullying messages on Facebook and letting all know she supports Pieta House... despite being absolutely vile to people herself. Yep, quite a few of those out there. Either incredible lack of self awareness or incredible arrogance.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,740 ✭✭✭Foweva Awone


    The man had psychiatric issues. Perhaps there was bullying going on, or perhaps it was paranoia and/or over-sensitivity on his part.

    The judge adjourned the inquest to get more information, rather than basing his decision purely on the widow's opinion of what went on - maybe we should exercise similar caution, rather than calling for the "bully" to be "outed" in some sort of witch hunt.

    I remember a case a good few years back where a young lad committed suicide, and his parents blamed his principal for "bullying" him, because he'd had to have a chat with him about his behaviour in class. The principal, a very gentle well-respected caring man - who was already blaming himself unnecessarily - ended up having a complete mental breakdown himself, spent months in a psychiatric hospital, and never returned to work. He and his family ended up suffering almost as much as the other family involved; completely unnecessary in my opinion, but I guess the parents needed SOMEONE to blame.

    My point is, the widow in this case may feel the same way. Doesn't mean the rest of us have to jump on it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭Ger Roe


    For anyone interested in learning how you might help, if the need arises.... the HSE provides free training.

    "ASIST (Applied Suicide Intervention Skills Training) is a two-day interactive workshop in suicide first-aid. It is suitable for all kinds of caregivers - health workers, teachers, community workers, Gardai, youth workers, volunteers, people responding to family, friends and co-workers. ASIST trains participants to reduce the immediate risk of suicide and increase the support for a person at risk. It helps them seek a shared understanding of reasons for suicide and reasons for living."

    Details here -

    https://www.hse.ie/eng/services/list/4/mental-health-services/nosp/training/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,260 ✭✭✭Buford T Justice


    It's not helped by the way HR deals with it. They made a bollix of it where I worked and I'm not sure the end result improved anyone's lot. I've heard equally bad stories from friends' workplaces. It seems to be rare that a bully gets a P45 and they work out ways to be more subtle. The issue just rumbles on until someone leaves.

    Same in a place I used to work. I left in the end, since nothing was being done about it since it was reported many months before. Well, apparently it was addressed but nothing changed. I left and my formal complaint left with me so they didn't have to do anything.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Sorry this is long. Can't post the link. This would be a big worry I have mental health services in the Hse. It's an article from the Connacht Tribune. I think about it often what this family went through.

    "The mother of a 25-year-old man who died by suicide told an inquest into his death she was looking for help but didn’t get it.

    The man, with an address on the outskirts of Galway city, took his own life in November, 2016, following his discharge a month earlier from University Hospital Galway’s Psychiatric Unit.

    His mother told Coroner for Galway West, Dr Ciarán MacLoughlin, that her son was admitted to hospital on September 21, 2017 and was an in-patient for 18 days.

    She was critical of the decision to discharge her son and, in particular, the lack of notice given to her that he would be coming home.

    She said she had tried to meet with hospital staff but had been left waiting so long on one occasion, she had to return to work.

    “I was surprised when they rang and told me he was being discharged; nobody asked did he have somewhere to go.

    “Yes, he was an adult, but he was still a sick adult,†she said.

    She told the Coroner’s Court that once her son left the hospital, he refused to take the medication that had been prescribed for him.

    “He wasn’t willing to go to the pharmacy to get medication – he just wasn’t right,†she said. “He thought this medication was killing him.â€

    Consultant Psychiatrist, Dr Camilla Hennelly, treated the deceased at hospital during his admission in September 2017.

    Speaking to the inquest, Dr Hennelly said he was a self-referred patient and that it had been his first presentation to the services.

    “He presented with a three- month history of low mood, poor appetite, broken sleep and paranoid and suicidal ideation.

    “He had been drinking for two years previously culminating in low mood,†said Dr Hennelly.

    “He was abstinent on presentation for a period of two to three months,†she added.

    She said he had been on anti-depressants but compliance had been an issue and he could not recall the name of them when asked.

    In the early stages of his admission, he was placed on level two observations which involved him being checked every 15 minutes by a psychiatric nurse.

    He was also prescribed anti-depressants and anti-psychotic drugs, explained Dr Hennelly.

    “He engaged with the therapist and a recovery care plan was put in place and this was discussed with his mother.

    “He denied any cravings for alcohol during his admission and on September 25, following review by me, I increased his anti-depression medication,†said Dr Hennelly.

    She said on October 2, his depression symptoms were abating, as was his suicidal ideation.

    “By October 9, I was satisfied that he should be discharged for therapeutic reasons,†said Dr Hennelly, before explaining that certain services are not available to psychiatric patients while they remain in hospital.

    He was advised to attend the day hospital and group therapy sessions and was told of the importance of taking any medication prescribed for him.

    Coroner, Dr MacLoughlin, said it was all very well to say he wasn’t displaying psychosis at this point.

    “He was dead within a month by his own hand.

    “There seems to me an awful lot of concern by his mother and it would appear that concern wasn’t taken on board by a lot of other people,†said Dr MacLoughlin.

    His mother said her son did not leave the house for a month after discharge; had been so afraid at night that he was sleeping in the bed with her; and he refused to take any medication.

    She said she had tried to contact Dr Hennelly at one point but she was on leave and her call was never returned.

    Dr Hennelly said she was never made aware that her patient’s mother had called upon her return.

    The deceased’s mother said she had reached despair on October 13 and called for an ambulance, only for the paramedics to inform her that because her son would not go willingly to hospital with them, it would be up to his GP or the Gardaí to sign him in.

    “The ambulance person rang the GP to ask him to sign [my son] into hospital but the GP refused and said I have nothing to do with that and to ring the Guards,†she said.

    Giving evidence, the deceased’s GP, Dr Denis Higgins, said he had no record of that call and while it could have been taken by another GP at his practice, he personally did not speak to any paramedic.

    The mother said she would seek to find the paramedic to corroborate her story, should the Coroner allow it.

    Legal Counsel for the HSE, Imelda Tierney, said that the deceased had been engaging with the services after his discharge from UHG.

    “He had an 18 day stay in hospital – that is not often the case. He received detailed treatment over that 18 days.

    “He returned to an appointment on October 18 so he was engaging with the system,†said Ms Tierney.

    Coroner, Dr MacLoughlin, said it seemed his mother had a deep insight into the problems her son faced.

    “Ms Tierney, what you are really saying is that all the professionals thought he was alright and the only person who knew how sick he was, was his mother – and who was right?

    “I feel it is incumbent on me to make enquiries on this and see what the general attitude in the hospital is to this,†said Dr MacLoughlin.

    He said he would give the deceased’s mother the time she needed to find the paramedic whom she said had called the doctor.

    “I will reserve a verdict and any rider or recommendation until such a time as we have heard complete evidence. We will reconvene on June 28/29,†said Dr MacLoughlin."

    I remember this case; shocking and the covering of backs is even worse. Ties in with my own encounters with HSE.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭theguzman


    I have been bullied in School and in the workplace after that, however I never let bullies get to me or let them get away with it. In school I was suspended a few times for fighting back, one day I broke a 12 year olds nose and gave him a right hammering, that ended his bullying days of course I was portrayed as a bully myself but I was merely been reactionary. I was taught always fight back and never let the bullies win, I have done this all my life and it is a good lesson to teach a kid to use his fists to defend himself.

    Later in my early twenties I started work in a hotel and a jumped up prick of a bar manager tried the same stuff, it started as verbal comments and then moved to rota changes and general abuse, I was logging abuse and one evening in January when he was all boasting about his new Audi and I driving a 10 year old car myself, he made some particularly vile remark to me and within seconds I had him knocked unconscious and only for the bar man and manager holding me back I'd probably have killed him there and then.

    Guards were called but my solicitor defeated the hotel and the bar manager, there was no civil or criminal charges and the manager was fired and never came back to work after two Foreign members of housekeeping revealed his sexual harassment of them, and that cost the Hotel north of €100,000.

    I resigned the job but didn't sue the hotel as I think I thought him a life lesson that evening. For the poor guy who died in Munster Joinery why he didn't just do the same to those bullies is beyond me. These people are predatory and like a fox will circle on a weak rabbit but won't go for those who will stand up to them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,168 ✭✭✭Ursus Horribilis


    Not everyone is going to be as violent as you.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,958 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    theguzman wrote: »
    I have been bullied in School and in the workplace after that, however I never let bullies get to me or let them get away with it. In school I was suspended a few times for fighting back, one day I broke a 12 year olds nose and gave him a right hammering, that ended his bullying days of course I was portrayed as a bully myself but I was merely been reactionary. I was taught always fight back and never let the bullies win, I have done this all my life and it is a good lesson to teach a kid to use his fists to defend himself.

    Later in my early twenties I started work in a hotel and a jumped up prick of a bar manager tried the same stuff, it started as verbal comments and then moved to rota changes and general abuse, I was logging abuse and one evening in January when he was all boasting about his new Audi and I driving a 10 year old car myself, he made some particularly vile remark to me and within seconds I had him knocked unconscious and only for the bar man and manager holding me back I'd probably have killed him there and then.

    Guards were called but my solicitor defeated the hotel and the bar manager, there was no civil or criminal charges and the manager was fired and never came back to work after two Foreign members of housekeeping revealed his sexual harassment of them, and that cost the Hotel north of €100,000.

    I resigned the job but didn't sue the hotel as I think I thought him a life lesson that evening. For the poor guy who died in Munster Joinery why he didn't just do the same to those bullies is beyond me. These people are predatory and like a fox will circle on a weak rabbit but won't go for those who will stand up to them.

    He might not have had the strength of character you have, also not everyone has dynamite in their fists to teach the bully a lesson- so physical violence is not always the solution, some would say it never is.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,111 ✭✭✭SirChenjin


    It's not helped by the way HR deals with it. They made a bollix of it where I worked and I'm not sure the end result improved anyone's lot. I've heard equally bad stories from friends' workplaces. It seems to be rare that a bully gets a P45 and they work out ways to be more subtle. The issue just rumbles on until someone leaves.

    All too true, I've seen / heard many stories over the years.
    And it's usually the bullied person who leaves.

    A lot of companies like to brush it under the carpet and hope it goes away, unfortunately. All the while having nice shiny anti-bullying policies in place, of course. :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,168 ✭✭✭Ursus Horribilis


    He might not have had the strength of character you have, also not everyone has dynamite in their fists to teach the bully a lesson- so physical violence is not always the solution, some would say it never is.

    In some workplaces, if you strike a colleague you'll get a P45 on the spot.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    He might not have had the strength of character you have, also not everyone has dynamite in their fists to teach the bully a lesson- so physical violence is not always the solution, some would say it never is.

    Well they'd be wrong.


  • Registered Users Posts: 109 ✭✭HamSarris


    theguzman wrote: »
    I have been bullied in School and in the workplace after that, however I never let bullies get to me or let them get away with it. In school I was suspended a few times for fighting back, one day I broke a 12 year olds nose and gave him a right hammering, that ended his bullying days of course I was portrayed as a bully myself but I was merely been reactionary. I was taught always fight back and never let the bullies win, I have done this all my life and it is a good lesson to teach a kid to use his fists to defend himself.

    Later in my early twenties I started work in a hotel and a jumped up prick of a bar manager tried the same stuff, it started as verbal comments and then moved to rota changes and general abuse, I was logging abuse and one evening in January when he was all boasting about his new Audi and I driving a 10 year old car myself, he made some particularly vile remark to me and within seconds I had him knocked unconscious and only for the bar man and manager holding me back I'd probably have killed him there and then.

    Guards were called but my solicitor defeated the hotel and the bar manager, there was no civil or criminal charges and the manager was fired and never came back to work after two Foreign members of housekeeping revealed his sexual harassment of them, and that cost the Hotel north of €100,000.

    I resigned the job but didn't sue the hotel as I think I thought him a life lesson that evening. For the poor guy who died in Munster Joinery why he didn't just do the same to those bullies is beyond me. These people are predatory and like a fox will circle on a weak rabbit but won't go for those who will stand up to them.

    Thinly veiled aren't I a tough guy validation-seeking post


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,958 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    In some workplaces, if you strike a colleague you'll get a P45 on the spot.

    I would imagine most places would. My manager was being builled, he documented it all- video recordings, witness statements, and now has taken the offenders to a tribunal. He is on extended sick leave with full pay. That seems a better way to deal with it than striking out and risk losing your job.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    In some workplaces, if you strike a colleague you'll get a P45 on the spot.

    And rightly so. It makes it all the more inexplicable how firms can get away with, at worst, "sideways" moves of people who have been reported for repeatedly mistreating employees and undermining their professionalism and dignity in the workplace. This "sideways" move seems, in my non-scientific experience, to be the most common way to treat bullies when a fuss is made (if nobody makes a stand, don't be surprised if the bully gets to senior management). Bullying is such a singularly insidious, pernicious and nasty form of mistreatment of a human being that without question I'd prefer a straightforward wallop to the degrading mindfúck of all mindfúcks that is bullying. No comparison.

    As I said elsewhere, if there is such a thing as moral responsibility in this modern age I submit that we all have a moral responsibility in our workplaces to keep an eye on more vulnerable staff being mistreated.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,471 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,277 ✭✭✭poisonated


    I think it’s a bit unfair that dignitas won’t have you as a customer if the reason is due to mental illness..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 608 ✭✭✭Dalomanakora


    Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

    Not really true though, is it?

    If you have a lifelong or chronic illness, your problem will never be temporary, it'll always be there but occasionally masked by medications.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Not really true though, is it?

    If you have a lifelong or chronic illness, your problem will never be temporary, it'll always be there but occasionally masked by medications.

    Now that is a depressing way to look at life. All of us with chronic illness value the better times however they come.

    No such thing in life as perfect health etc.

    What convinced me was that there is no future in suicide so it is no solution to anything.
    Saved my life did that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    Graces7 wrote: »
    Now that is a depressing way to look at life. All of us with chronic illness value the better times however they come.

    No such thing in life as perfect health etc.

    What convinced me was that there is no future in suicide so it is no solution to anything.
    Saved my life did that.

    No. You do, but don't lump everyone into the same line of thinking.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

    What if you've a terminal illness and are kinda ok-ish at the moment ?


    It seems better to plan ahead, select your moment and die in style instead of ending your days in some daft hospice rotting away


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    gctest50 wrote: »
    What if you've a terminal illness and are kinda ok-ish at the moment ?


    It seems better to plan ahead, select your moment and die in style instead of ending your days in some daft hospice rotting away


    :confused:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,555 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    I'm pretty sure Capt'n Midnight's quote isn't referring to suicide in response to a terminal, or life altering diagnosis.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,175 ✭✭✭dense


    I posted this elsewhere but it wasn't answered.

    Who's business is it to decide that I or anyone else should not be able to end their own life?

    We are now allegedly a pro choice society, but where is the choice for an adult member of society who wants to be able to self terminate with some dignity and with the assistance of the medical community, at a time and place of their choosing?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,514 ✭✭✭valoren


    On the workplace bullying.
    My wife was bullied by my sister in law. They worked together. A falling out between myself and SIL had been a long time coming, long before I met my wife. My SIL was a long term cancer in our family, stirring trouble for drama. After she had (another) toxic meltdown on a night out five years ago, I, personally had had enough of her and went no contact again. We no longer went out with my brother and his wife after her public meltdown but we would thereafter only be in each other's company at family events where she, expressly, would be shunned.

    She, being a serial bully since her school days, with her false front of confidence, upon realizing she'd been cut off again scrambled to find a coherent explanation for the lack of contact. Our family and extended family/friends were all quite close, her own toxic reputation preceded itself within it and thus it would have been immediately obvious that she was the cancer in the family. She created a poisonous accusation to explain my decision to cut contact which was that I no longer had time for my brother, someone I was particularly close to and who was good friends with my then girlfriend himself.

    She had invented a weapon with which she bullied my wife with, harassed her, intimidated her under the guise of 'fixing' this new problem. It became relentless. She obsessively targeted my wife. All of it was brazenly done at work, in plain sight of staff and also one to one behind closed doors. She also cyber bullied her by 'dog whistling' on Facebook i.e. As people have pointed out, she would be posting anti-bullying affirmations while simultaneously bullying my wife. She played the victim with work colleagues, haranguing people into a clique against her. She never once contacted me, who was supposed to be at fault, the person abusing her man-child of a husband.

    It was a nightmare for my wife. The vindictiveness of it impacted her mental well being and it took a physical toll, she lost weight due to the stress. She went to the line manager eventually but it was dealt with by telling them both to ignore each other essentially. Getting word of that, my SIL, slandered and smeared my then girlfriend in the months after it stitching her up as a trouble making bully who was trying to her fired. My SIL was using personal family issues which were none of her concern, bullying her, and she merely looked to have it stop. They did nothing beyond effectively saying "You go this way, you go that way". If there was any degree of competence or enforcement of their code of duty, then my SIL would have been sacked. The amateurish set up, a healthcare company, emboldened bullying.

    I spoke with my brother but he was a browbeaten doormat, himself bullied into compliance with her poison. He needed to grow a pair of balls for himself by then, while her abuse towards he himself was his own business, to have her extend it towards my then girlfriend warranted action from him. Yet he believed his wife completely. He had to believe or else his life would be even more hellish than it already was due to her incessant abuse of him. He chose the easy way out and threw my wife under the bus to avoid confronting his odious wife. He staunchly believed her lies which blamed my wife, while she herself played the innocent victim who was trying to protect him. The company eventually folded, my wife worked in a similar role, in another practice in the same building. Even then my SIL showed up one day with her mother and in the foyer of the building slandered my wife as a bully by way of warning the staff who still worked there. Their toxic message was that my SIL had been a victim of that bully. Needless to say it was not a pleasant experience for my wife. The bullying extended beyond the work place.

    My brother never confronted her. Instead, I confronted her and did his talking for him in spelling out what an absolute **** she was being and for enabling a split between us all. I knew damn well things would never be the same but I said what needed to be said. There was right and wrong. Seeing that she was exposed, she, a grown woman, went to her parents who contacted me with accusations of harassment and with the express purpose of shutting me down. It was a vindication of sorts to witness a then 28 year old woman go to her Mammy and Daddy to bail her out. I threatened the controlling bubble she had over my brother by calling her to account. He was firmly under the impression that she had been bullied in various guises since her primary school days. He was gullible as it was but he wasn't stupid. Seeing his brother calling out her subterfuge rattled her completely. She didn't want him comprehending her manipulative duplicity.

    Ever since, my brother was isolated from me. He never answered the phone, any text messages between us were monitored. Even his reply's were dictated by his controlling wife. We met again with our Dad to witness but the poison she had browbeaten him into believing was now entrenched and it permanently ended our relationship. He said he believed whatever she told him. Period. My attitude was that if he stubbornly believed a proven liar he could **** off. I'd bitten my tongue for the best part of a decade, watching her being increasingly abusive towards him (and sometimes even myself) but seeing her extend her bullying towards my girlfriend, whose only mistake was befriending her, was completely out of order. I let him know he was being made a fool of, protected his future SIL's reputation and cleared my conscience to that end. Falling out with him was a no-brainer for me, his mentally closed shop attitude coupled with his complete lack of candor about his wife's behavior being the push I needed to cut ties.

    I was unsurprisingly labelled a bully as well for pointing out obvious truths and the narrative quickly changed becoming that I was actually the one manipulated and the one bullied into compliance by my bullying girlfriend. They even went as far as inventing fictional people from her old job she had supposedly bullied before my SIL started working there and defamed her character within my own family. When my wife left that new role, it became that she'd actually been fired from it for bullying another new starter. The reality that there was just two people in the practice was irrelevant. :pac: This was an obsessively dangerous person we had happily cut out, who even after that, monitored us both. The manipulative bent being that my wife supposedly had previous form and my innocent SIL was simply another victim of her bullying. This is what everyone would be told thereafter. I never grasped how dangerous it actually was. For me, her behavior was just that of a deeply insecure nobody with the emotional capacity of a 5 year old who craved any attention and habitually provoked people by bullying them to get that attention. Someone who subsequently played the victim card with her family to elicit even more attention and sympathy. Having never been bullied myself, I never grasped the impact it has on the person being bullied; my girlfriend.

    The penny dropped for me after my wife confided in me recently that, during the height of the bullying, it got so bad that, after work one winter evening, she went to the local beach. She couldn't cope. Knowing that she couldn't swim, she planned to wade fully clothed into the sea and let herself succumb to drowning. She, luckily, snapped out of it but to be standing on a windswept beach in the middle of winter thinking of ending your life was the dark place she was inhabiting mentally. And all because of a psychotic little cnut who was threatened by who my wife is and the kindness she represents.

    She felt that it would make the bullying go away. She was a happy, popular and loved person and colleague. I guess this made her a target for my SIL, a malignant narcissist. She was on the brink of breaking up with me as she thought this might also stop it but she also didn't want to allow this asshole, who was out to get her, win so to speak. We were blissfully happy to be together, this rankled with my SIL clearly, but such are the dark thoughts you can go through when you are being systematically and intentionally destroyed by a hateful, vindictive, malicious and dangerous piece of work. This skillful, bullying clown still manages to maintain close ties with my immediate family who have bought into their deflection that there are two sides to the story. She has predictably portrayed herself as the heroic do-gooder, the narcissistic scut pretending she was trying to protect me from wife and got herself bullied in the cross fire. :rolleyes:

    The poor man in Munster Joinery could have lashed out, fought fire with fire but he shouldn't have had to. The company has a code of duty to employee's. It was clearly not enforced. Like my wife, he dreaded Sunday evenings with the thoughts of having to go back to work knowing what awaited them. Nobody should feel that way about their work. They were the one's who needed to deal with the bullying, they didn't and that man sadly took the ultimate option. It made the bullying go away but the man's friends and family have been devastated because of a bully who was enabled by an indifferent and inert company.

    What a mark that is against that company. What a warning it ought to provide to other companies about the ramifications of workplace bullying. In my wife's case, she made all the formal complaints available, she followed the procedures she needed to in order to protect herself from a bully. Not only did her doing that not stop the bullying, ironically, it actually made it far worse, as that company's indifference and ignorance enabled that psychotic bitch to fester and deflect with her well honed victim playing routine. There should be serious consequences for any workplace bully. It should be taken so seriously that it can have the capacity to destroy your reputation and career if you do it. Companies should have adequate policies to police it, but more importantly, adequate staff to enforce those policies. The bully in Munster Joinery should have been fired. Their reputation for being a dick preceded itself and nothing was ever done about it. They were asked to stop but continued in spite of that and the man made the bullying stop by ending his own life. That bully, like my SIL, was allowed to fester, enabled and emboldened to create such a toxic (and ultimately tragic) working environment.

    We have had no contact with either of them for years now. My SIL has been cunning enough to realize that publicly confronting us, the supposed bullies, will merely back fire on her. I would wipe the floor with her and her dope of a husband. Instead, she does what any bully does, she cowardly lies to and manipulates my immediate family (out of sight from us, with no right of reply) with my henpecked brother enabling her vitriol every step of the way. If they were to even breath in our direction in future, I will not be as nice as I so clearly was. It infuriate me to this day how lenient and accommodating I was. I didn't get it until my wife explained her the state of mind. When diplomacy, tact, discussions and giving your point of view do nothing, a fist to the face, and the solid threat of more to follow, is ultimately the only language such bullies understand and becomes the only way to make them go away for good. I am personally presented within my own family as a bully so I guess if you are in for a penny, you may as well be in for a pound.

    I see people are calling that the bully should not be named and shamed. If it is found that they have played a part in this man's suicide then it should be public knowledge. The key word from the article is relentless. This was not a case of someone making a smart comment and the person being mocked, took it to heart and then killed themselves. It was relentless.

    With that, they should be named and shamed if they hold any semblance of responsibility. It should present a clear and present warning to any work place bully and to those who enable them. Effectively, don't bully. If you continue it has the power to drive people to suicide and when you do get named and shamed don't expect any lenience because it shouldn't have been conducted in the first instance. To do otherwise would be a disservice to John Broderick and his family and give the message to other workplace bullies that should their bullying result in suicide they too will be afforded protection. My wife got driven to the brink herself and that cancer in my family effectively got away with enabling that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭Bigbagofcans


    Oh yeah the type who'd be posting anti bullying messages on Facebook and letting all know she supports Pieta House... despite being absolutely vile to people herself. Yep, quite a few of those out there. Either incredible lack of self awareness or incredible arrogance.

    Oh yeah I know someone like that. They post selfies of themselves doing 'Darkness Into Light' and post quotes like 'Everyone is fighting a battle you know knowing about. Be kind always.' Their online self is the complete opposite of their real life nasty bullying self.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,043 ✭✭✭Wabbit Ears


    I went to my doctor and talked to him about work and stress and suicidal thoughts. He was fantastic and really helped me and he saved my life, literally. Then he went and hung himself a few months later.

    My company goes on about mental health but when I went to them and said, I have mental health issues I was met with blank dumb as fcuk stares. So I just lie now and say everythings grand because if I don't Ill have to deal with further comments about you know, that time I had that episode and took a few weeks off work, to doss or whatever.

    we, as a society, do not know how to deal with mental health issues. end of.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 608 ✭✭✭Dalomanakora


    Graces7 wrote: »
    Now that is a depressing way to look at life. All of us with chronic illness value the better times however they come.

    No such thing in life as perfect health etc.

    What convinced me was that there is no future in suicide so it is no solution to anything.
    Saved my life did that.

    Please don't speak for "all of us" with chronic illness. They don't all value the better times. Some can't get out of their mental illnesses.


    I have a chronic illness too (more than one actually) and while I absolutely value my life and love it for the most part, that's simply not true of everyone with chronic illness and it's silly to say it is.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,482 ✭✭✭Gimme A Pound


    Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
    Not always. And not just in the case of terminal illnesses as mentioned, but severe mental illness too.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,482 ✭✭✭Gimme A Pound


    The man had psychiatric issues. Perhaps there was bullying going on, or perhaps it was paranoia and/or over-sensitivity on his part.

    The judge adjourned the inquest to get more information, rather than basing his decision purely on the widow's opinion of what went on - maybe we should exercise similar caution, rather than calling for the "bully" to be "outed" in some sort of witch hunt.

    I remember a case a good few years back where a young lad committed suicide, and his parents blamed his principal for "bullying" him, because he'd had to have a chat with him about his behaviour in class. The principal, a very gentle well-respected caring man - who was already blaming himself unnecessarily - ended up having a complete mental breakdown himself, spent months in a psychiatric hospital, and never returned to work. He and his family ended up suffering almost as much as the other family involved; completely unnecessary in my opinion, but I guess the parents needed SOMEONE to blame.

    My point is, the widow in this case may feel the same way. Doesn't mean the rest of us have to jump on it.
    Was thinking that too - but I've been speaking to someone close to the situation since, and while the poor man did struggle with mental illness, the person in question was known for being unnecessarily harsh on people. However, I agree, that person is being sufficiently punished now (and tbh they brought some of it on themselves) - for the rest of their life, so while I totally understand the deceased man's widow's perspective is gonna be distorted right now, I don't see what the benefit of naming and shaming would be for others, apart from a pitchfork wielding opportunity.

    I see a "Be nice" person is one of the pitchfork advocates.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 710 ✭✭✭ginandtonicsky


    My company goes on about mental health but when I went to them and said, I have mental health issues I was met with blank dumb as fcuk stares. So I just lie now and say everythings grand because if I don't Ill have to deal with further comments about you know, that time I had that episode and took a few weeks off work, to doss or whatever.

    Yeah this. The tokenism around mental health has become fashionable, both corporately and personally. It's a great brand strategy to bang on about wellness and team charity runs and free yoga classes for all employees and "it's ok to not be ok", particularly if you're one of these new US startups or a major corporate entity. You know, the types that simultaneously work their employees like dogs and are happy enough for them to sacrifice their evenings and weekends and irony of all ironies, mental health for the sake of keeping their job and not being driven out of a job by the sheer pressure of it all.

    The "right on" attitude towards mental health is actually offensive in some circumstances, when it runs contrary to a work culture that so obviously does sweet f*ck all to support the mental health of employees; or the classic Darkness into Light selfie taker that can't tell their 400 instagram followers enough times how wholesome and compassionate they are, while simultaneously judging or mocking or ignoring the actual people that struggle with their mental health in real life.

    My sibling is severely mentally ill and the people that have made my parents' and my family's life ten times more hellish than it ever needed to be throughout the entire nightmare of it all were and are the "professionals" in the HSE that have been tasked with protecting and improving the life of said sibling. Some nasty, self-serving bullies within that particular area of the public health services who will throw anyone under the bus to protect their privileged positions. Really really disgusting stuff.


This discussion has been closed.
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