Smart lights vs smart switches

bk · 12-07-2018 11:16am

b.gud wrote: »

So I've moved into a new house and I was planning on adding a few SonOff touch light switches. I read the earlier post about needing the neutral wire so I opened up one of the light switches and I'm happy to say I think I have the required wires, picture below. Just wondering is there anything else I need to consider before installing one?

b.gud probably best to ask over on the Sonoff thread, you are more likely to get an answer there.

wexfordman2 · 12-07-2018 11:28am

bk wrote: »

I think you guys need to define what you mean by "wireless". There are two parts here, comms and power.

- Comms - How these devices communicate with the base, Zigbee wireless versus cat5, etc.
- Power - How you power the smart switch, battery or using 2 or 3 wire power cable.

For Comms I fully expect that they will use Zigbee wireless. As do all other Hue products.

But for the power, I suspect most of them * will use the 2/3 wires that are normally at the light switch to power them.

Even for the retrofit market, it still makes more sense to reuse the cables in the wall at the old light switch to power the smart switch, rather then having to mess around with changing batteries every few years.

* There may well also be battery options, as there are for the Xioami switches, they come in both battery powered and 2/3 wire powered, but I'd expect wired to be the primary option.

The battery option would be more if you want to put a second light switch at the end of the hall/room where no switch currently exists. It can also help with issues around two way switching.

What is unknown, is if the wired ones will actually control the circuit running to the ceiling lights or not. If you hit the switch will it:

1) cut the power to the ceiling lights or
2) will it be just sending an "off" command to the Hue lights to soft turn off, not actually cutting power

The former would work with both Hue lights and standard lights, the latter will work only with Hue lights.

Either is technically easily doable, you could even make it an option in the software config, so you could do both. So this question comes more down to the business decision for Philips. Do they just want to force people into buying Hue bulbs or do they want to open up the market to actual smart switches too?

Thats pretty much my hunch as well, the smart switch will be powered by the 220v, but the question is will it control the circuit via an internal relay or dimmer for that circuit, or will it simply send in/off/dimm commands to hue bulbs.

So in essence, will the philpps implementation effectively be like a fibaro type module using ZigBee.

I think there will still be an issue/concern around the need for neutral or not, which might cause problems for retrofits here.

paulbok · 12-07-2018 11:29am

bk wrote: »

I think you guys need to define what you mean by "wireless". There are two parts here, comms and power.

- Comms - How these devices communicate with the base, Zigbee wireless versus cat5, etc.
- Power - How you power the smart switch, battery or using 2 or 3 wire power cable.

For Comms I fully expect that they will use Zigbee wireless. As do all other Hue products.

But for the power, I suspect most of them * will use the 2/3 wires that are normally at the light switch to power them.

Even for the retrofit market, it still makes more sense to reuse the cables in the wall at the old light switch to power the smart switch, rather then having to mess around with changing batteries every few years.

* There may well also be battery options, as there are for the Xioami switches, they come in both battery powered and 2/3 wire powered, but I'd expect wired to be the primary option.

The battery option would be more if you want to put a second light switch at the end of the hall/room where no switch currently exists. It can also help with issues around two way switching.

What is unknown, is if the wired ones will actually control the circuit running to the ceiling lights or not. If you hit the switch will it:

1) cut the power to the ceiling lights or
2) will it be just sending an "off" command to the Hue lights to soft turn off, not actually cutting power

The former would work with both Hue lights and standard lights, the latter will work only with Hue lights.

Either is technically easily doable, you could even make it an option in the software config, so you could do both. So this question comes more down to the business decision for Philips. Do they just want to force people into buying Hue bulbs or do they want to open up the market to actual smart switches too?

The 2 existing options I know of for smart switches, LightwaveRF and Xiaomi have both wired (power) smart switched and full wireless switches that can be put anywhere like the Hue dimmer.

I'm hoping it is the former of your options, that they kill the power to the light fitting, otherwise they are just fancy and expensive (I expect a pricepoint of €40-50 per 1 gang switch) hue dimmer switches.
If you have light fittings that don't have a smart bulb available - I have a 9 gu4 bulb ceiling light and matching 3 bulb table lamp in one room that I won't change just to fit smart bulbs in, so I believe this is the market they are aiming for.
Truly smart switches for regular bulbs and/or Hue kit for when you want that functionality.

b.gud · 12-07-2018 11:35am

bk wrote: »

b.gud probably best to ask over on the Sonoff thread, you are more likely to get an answer there.

Thanks thought that might be the case but figured I'd try here first as it was about switches

bk · 12-07-2018 11:36am

wexfordman2 wrote: »

I think there will still be an issue/concern around the need for neutral or not, which might cause problems for retrofits here.

Fibaro dimmers and Xioami switches can work without Neutral, so it is possible. But yes it does complicate things.

bk · 12-07-2018 11:47am

paulbok wrote: »

I'm hoping it is the former of your options, that they kill the power to the light fitting, otherwise they are just fancy and expensive (I expect a pricepoint of €40-50 per 1 gang switch) hue dimmer switches.

I'd hope they support both options myself, configurable in software.

There are folks like me, who have all Hue bulbs, who don't need the option of cutting power and might just be looking for a nicer looking, more "normal" alternative to the Hue wireless dimmer switch. I'm sure there any many of us with lots of Hue bulbs who would happily buy a switch like this.

Then there are people like yourself, who have lots of bulbs off one switch and just want a smart switch that is within the Hue ecosystem.

However you can see why this option might not be in Philips short term business interest.

But I do think it would be in Philips long term interest to support both options. Even people who initially buy into the Hue ecosystem just for a smart switch, in time I'm certain would eventually start converting at lest some lights to Hue bulbs and also end up buying motion sensors. White Ambiance and colour are worth having and those of us who have bought into Hue know the addiction is strong once you start.

So I do think Philips should support both, that it will benefit them long term.

But I don't know if they will, we will have to wait and see unfortunately.

wexfordman2 · 12-07-2018 7:15pm

bk wrote: »

Fibaro dimmers and Xioami switches can work without Neutral, so it is possible. But yes it does complicate things.

Any link in the switches ? My understanding was that on.off switching was a challenge as without a neutral the switch needed to allow a trickle current flow through ?

Dimming without a neutral is straightforward enough, but on/off is a challenge ?

Nelbert · 12-07-2018 7:36pm

b.gud wrote: »

So I've moved into a new house and I was planning on adding a few SonOff touch light switches. I read the earlier post about needing the neutral wire so I opened up one of the light switches and I'm happy to say I think I have the required wires, picture below. Just wondering is there anything else I need to consider before installing one?

My advice would be to check some more switches before going one way or another. I've some newer wiring in an extension which has a neutral but the rest of my switches don't have a neutral. Just a word of caution from experience.

bk · 12-07-2018 8:47pm

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Any link in the switches ? My understanding was that on.off switching was a challenge as without a neutral the switch needed to allow a trickle current flow through ?

Dimming without a neutral is straightforward enough, but on/off is a challenge ?

These lads:
https://www.gearbest.com/alarm-systems/pp_610096.html?wid=1433363#goodsDetail

There are also the LightwaveRF switches, they work too. In the case of LED's, you need to use dimmable ones, I think behind the scenes they are acting more like dimmer switches, even if only one button.

b.gud · 12-07-2018 9:46pm

Nelbert wrote: »

My advice would be to check some more switches before going one way or another. I've some newer wiring in an extension which has a neutral but the rest of my switches don't have a neutral. Just a word of caution from experience.

Thanks for the tip. Had seen that mentioned somewhere else in my research so opened a few switches and they are the same as the one I posted so I should be good to go but will def be opening up all the switches I plan on putting 1 in before I place the order

wexfordman2 · 12-07-2018 10:04pm

bk wrote: »

These lads:
https://www.gearbest.com/alarm-systems/pp_610096.html?wid=1433363#goodsDetail

There are also the LightwaveRF switches, they work too. In the case of LED's, you need to use dimmable ones, I think behind the scenes they are acting more like dimmer switches, even if only one button.

Yep, that makes sense, its a dimmer in effect, so you would need to be aware of the limitations. As you said, dimmable led bulbs only, and also there is the load limints, 5w min load for led bulbs

AstraMonti · 13-11-2018 10:44am

Anyone seen more news on the compatible philips hue switches?

Also, Sonoff are no go for me, I don't have a neutral.

paulbok · 13-11-2018 12:45pm

AstraMonti wrote: »

Anyone seen more news on the compatible philips hue switches?

Also, Sonoff are no go for me, I don't have a neutral.

Nothing except for some Twitter activity and other posters have emailed the suppliers about release dates. Due end of the month from some.
Philips confirmed to me that they do replace the existing light switch (so you don't have two switches on the wall) but nothing I've read from the suppliers confirm this. All images point to a flat wireless device and they even mention some don't need a battery, they work off kinetic energy like the Hue tap switch.

Soarer · 14-11-2018 5:22pm

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Thirdly, a golden rule with your solution, whatver it is, make sure it is two way, ie manual activation of the light switch will update the status of your light to the app/controlller/hub.

Just going back to this on the first page.

If I have "normal" light switches, and get a Hue hub with hue bulbs, I assume I'll have to leave my switches "on" for the bulb to receive power, and then can control it on/off from the app or whatever?
And if someone wanted to control it normally, they could just use the switch?

Phibsboro · 14-11-2018 5:29pm

Soarer wrote: »

Just going back to this on the first page.

If I have "normal" light switches, and get a Hue hub with hue bulbs, I assume I'll have to leave my switches "on" for the bulb to receive power, and then can control it on/off from the app or whatever?
And if someone wanted to control it normally, they could just use the switch?

The problem is that just once they turn it off from a normal switch then the app or whatever wouldn't work as the bulb isn't getting any power.

Phibsboro · 14-11-2018 5:34pm

paulbok wrote: »

Nothing except for some Twitter activity and other posters have emailed the suppliers about release dates. Due end of the month from some.
Philips confirmed to me that they do replace the existing light switch (so you don't have two switches on the wall) but nothing I've read from the suppliers confirm this. All images point to a flat wireless device and they even mention some don't need a battery, they work off kinetic energy like the Hue tap switch.

I skipped a few pages in the middle of this thread, so this may have been addressed alreday. My understanding of what is coming from Philip's partners is that they are simply Wifi switches but in a nice decor friendly form. They are *not* smart swtiches in the normal meaning of that phrase, they wouldn't turn on or off the power at the wall. They might use power from the wall to power themselves (though actually I suspect they are all going to be kinetic) but they wouldn't switch the power. There is no way Philips is going down that road anytime soon when they are getting approx 20e a pop for GU10 ambient white bulbs.

paulbok · 14-11-2018 10:04pm

Phibsboro wrote: »

I skipped a few pages in the middle of this thread, so this may have been addressed alreday. My understanding of what is coming from Philip's partners is that they are simply Wifi switches but in a nice decor friendly form. They are *not* smart swtiches in the normal meaning of that phrase, they wouldn't turn on or off the power at the wall. They might use power from the wall to power themselves (though actually I suspect they are all going to be kinetic) but they wouldn't switch the power. There is no way Philips is going down that road anytime soon when they are getting approx 20e a pop for GU10 ambient white bulbs.

Yep unfortunately. One of the suppliers of the Niko switches Suoer Modular, confirmed they are just wireless (like the Hue dinner). Will be available end of next week. Gave a price of €95 for two switches but going by the image they sent that may be just for one 2 gang switch :eek:
Asked them to clarify. They will only have a 2 gang available in stainless steel or white to start with.
Look nice but not what I need. Can't see it being any different with the other suppliers.
The search continues...

Soarer · 14-11-2018 11:39pm

Phibsboro wrote: »

The problem is that just once they turn it off from a normal switch then the app or whatever wouldn't work as the bulb isn't getting any power.

So say, as an example, I want to automate stuff with a Hue hub but SWMBO doesn't.

She comes home of an evening, and turns on the lights in the normal way.
Me, going to bed later, have a routine enabled that turns off all the lights in one go, but leaves the switches on.
In the morning, for herself to turn on the light(s) again, it's a simple case of turning the switch off and back on?

Phibsboro · 15-11-2018 1:02am

Soarer wrote: »

So say, as an example, I want to automate stuff with a Hue hub but SWMBO doesn't.

She comes home of an evening, and turns on the lights in the normal way.
Me, going to bed later, have a routine enabled that turns off all the lights in one go, but leaves the switches on.
In the morning, for herself to turn on the light(s) again, it's a simple case of turning the switch off and back on?

In that specific scenario, yes

I suspect the reality is that once S/HWMBO is touching the switch you are into chaos...

Mantis Toboggan · 15-11-2018 9:58am

What are the best uses for smart switches?

Soarer · 15-11-2018 10:08am

Phibsboro wrote: »

In that specific scenario, yes I suspect the reality is that once S/HWMBO is touching the switch you are into chaos...

Already in chaos! This is just an extra layer!

AstraMonti · 15-11-2018 10:32am

This latest info is a bit of a disappointment. But I guess, in theory, you can replace all your existing real switches, with wifi and then you have everything in sync, right? How does the wifi switch, ties to a specific room/bulbs?

AstraMonti · 15-11-2018 11:17am

Double post sorry, just seen this: https://www.vimar.com/en/int/friends-of-hue-radio-frequency-controls-14788132.html

bk · 15-11-2018 4:33pm

Soarer wrote: »

So say, as an example, I want to automate stuff with a Hue hub but SWMBO doesn't.

She comes home of an evening, and turns on the lights in the normal way.
Me, going to bed later, have a routine enabled that turns off all the lights in one go, but leaves the switches on.
In the morning, for herself to turn on the light(s) again, it's a simple case of turning the switch off and back on?

I found that the easiest thing to do was to just cover the physical switch and put a Philips dimmer switch over it and the SWMBO and other visiting family (grandparents, baby sitters, etc.) happily used the philips switch instead and then there were no issues with it being switch off.

Soarer · 15-11-2018 4:40pm

bk wrote: »

I found that the easiest thing to do was to just cover the physical switch and put a Philips dimmer switch over it and the SWMBO and other visiting family (grandparents, baby sitters, etc.) happily used the philips switch instead and then there were no issues with it being switch off.

Sounds easier for them, but a lot of work for me!

Must look into it. Most/All of our switches are double switches.

bk · 15-11-2018 4:49pm

Soarer wrote: »

Sounds easier for them, but a lot of work for me!

Must look into it. Most/All of our switches are double switches.

I covered my double switch without any issue.

The question is do you need to still control both sets of lights or will one do?

In my living room, I had 4 GU10's, divided in two per double switch. I just replaced it with one Hue dimmer switch, that controls all four as one (I can always use voice control or app to control them independently).

If you wanted to keep two switches, you have three options:
- Two Hue Dimmer switches, to replicated separate switches.
- One Hue Dimmer switch can be programmed to control two different sets of lights or even four if you wanted with the app iConnectHue on iphone. Basically you make one button a toggle on/off.
- The friends of Hue switches which will be introduced in a few weeks if you want something "nicer" looking.

paulbok · 15-11-2018 7:53pm

My problem is that I have some lights (gy6 type) that I can't replace with smart bulbs, and others I would prefer to just have a smart dimmer switch than a bulb.
I also want to have all switch plates the same in the house, so wiring on, blank plate and new Hue switch would only work for some.

bk · 15-11-2018 9:08pm

paulbok wrote: »

My problem is that I have some lights (gy6 type) that I can't replace with smart bulbs, and others I would prefer to just have a smart dimmer switch than a bulb.
I also want to have all switch plates the same in the house, so wiring on, blank plate and new Hue switch would only work for some.

You could give this supposedly Zigbee/Hue compatible light switch a try and let us know how it goes

https://www.amazon.co.uk/SmartThings-Lightify-Downlights-Automation-Standard/dp/B07GSPJW93/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1542312376&sr=8-3&keywords=zigbee+switch

Note it requires Neutral at your wall switch.

paulbok · 15-11-2018 10:31pm

An bord pleanala (wife) definitely wouldn't like that.
I have a demanding set of criteria for whatever switches I get, looks, dimmable, connect to existing wiring.
So I will have to hold fire until something comes on the market or 'make' my own with a nice looking dumb wall switch and something like an Aeotec dimmer switch installed with it.

wexfordman2 · 15-11-2018 11:13pm

paulbok wrote: »

An bord pleanala (wife) definitely wouldn't like that.
I have a demanding set of criteria for whatever switches I get, looks, dimmable, connect to existing wiring.
So I will have to hold fire until something comes on the market or 'make' my own with a nice looking dumb wall switch and something like an Aeotec dimmer switch installed with it.

Have a look at fibaro in line dimmable modules some dont require a neutral.

That and click infinnity wall switches and you can have standard looking wall switches as well

AstraMonti · 15-11-2018 11:41pm

I think where it becomes annoying with the wifi switches is when you have difference places that you turn on the lights from a single switch. For example i have one with 4 buttons, that turn on seperately kitchen/utility/outside back and front. I don't think you can achieve the same things from a single wifi switch.

AstraMonti · 07-12-2018 2:03pm

Just contacted www.dmlights.co.uk, Hue compatible Niko switches will come in stock in February.

AstraMonti · 10-12-2018 10:53am

https://www.lightgallery.com/fr/promotions/NIKO/

Apparently you can buy them. Pricey!

paulbok · 10-12-2018 1:34pm

AstraMonti wrote: »

https://www.lightgallery.com/fr/promotions/NIKO/

Apparently you can buy them. Pricey!

I was expecting around €50 for one, but with no wired versions for lights that can't take smart bulbs, not for I me thinks.

Smart lights vs smart switches

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