SLAR

Icsics · 07-12-2018 8:40pm #1

Would like some opinions on an issue with arranging SLARS. The Principal has emailed the Dept asking for dates/times. I have pointed out that they must start within school. The Principal wants the whole dept at it & PMES so cannot arrange that much cover. Only myself & another teacher have the 3rd yrs, we decided on a time (within school) & notified the co-ordinator. Principal is objecting (she sat in on the May one & took notes..!) What's the best way forward here? Thanks

solerina · 07-12-2018 9:13pm

Surely if only two of you have third years then it’s up to ye, however all teachers will probably have to mark a CBA in the near future so it’s a good idea to have as many as possible present.....however I would insist that if she wants everyone’s pres t then it must be during school time ...considering you can manage it within school time with the actual teachers involved. Start as you mean to go on !!

amacca · 07-12-2018 9:57pm

Why do principals do this stuff... they seem quick enough to implement the letter of the law when it involves taking time off their staff

the directive is clear....it starts within school time.

SligoBrewer · 07-12-2018 10:18pm

Icsics wrote: »

Would like some opinions on an issue with arranging SLARS. The Principal has emailed the Dept asking for dates/times. I have pointed out that they must start within school. The Principal wants the whole dept at it & PMES so cannot arrange that much cover. Only myself & another teacher have the 3rd yrs, we decided on a time (within school) & notified the co-ordinator. Principal is objecting (she sat in on the May one & took notes..!) What's the best way forward here? Thanks

Contact your union.

Icsics · 07-12-2018 10:54pm

Yes I think it'll be email to union on Monday. I don't think there's a directive on this, but I have the most recent ASTI posters. The other teacher is TUI, do they have the same position as ASTI?

SligoBrewer · 08-12-2018 12:51am

Icsics wrote: »

Yes I think it'll be email to union on Monday. I don't think there's a directive on this, but I have the most recent ASTI posters. The other teacher is TUI, do they have the same position as ASTI?

They don't.

deiseindublin · 08-12-2018 1:48am

Tui says that slars need to start during school hours but nothing else of any substance. Presumably if classes are all a min of 40 mins now 5 hats the least amount of time during school day.

evolving_doors · 08-12-2018 4:06am

Schools have been allocated sub hours for slars. Could he not just get the PMEs to do it? Time enough for them to be doing slars.
Unless one of the PMEs is his nephew or something!

Icsics · 08-12-2018 11:32am

evolving_doors wrote: »

Schools have been allocated sub hours for slars. Could he not just get the PMEs to do it? Time enough for them to be doing slars.
Unless one of the PMEs is his nephew or something!

It's being dressed up as a 'learning experience' 'collaborative learning' etc. Its causing huge hassle & bad feeling, all for something essentially meaningless!

SligoBrewer · 08-12-2018 12:47pm

evolving_doors wrote: »

Schools have been allocated sub hours for slars. Could he not just get the PMEs to do it? Time enough for them to be doing slars.
Unless one of the PMEs is his nephew or something!

Have they?

PureClareGold · 08-12-2018 1:48pm

Icsics wrote: »

It's being dressed up as a 'learning experience' 'collaborative learning' etc. Its causing huge hassle & bad feeling, all for something essentially meaningless!

Agree it's absolutely meaningless for me to sit down with my colleagues and look at pieces of work that students have produced in their room. There's nothing I can learn from having these discussions around what standard they are. Nothing I can learn from my colleagues about the way they approach things in their classroom. I did my dip 23 years ago and sure I learned everything then and I should just be allowed go into my classroom, close the door, open the book and not have to learn anything new myself.

evolving_doors · 08-12-2018 2:03pm

Icsics wrote: »

It's being dressed up as a 'learning experience' 'collaborative learning' etc. Its causing huge hassle & bad feeling, all for something essentially meaningless!

It's not a learning experience, it's your job to complete the SLARS, if others want to sit in on that 'to observe and learn' then that should be on them and not on you.

I'd contact the union and say that he's refusing to provide cover... what extra stuff the Principal wants out of the SLARs is his business.
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But I know the way it's going to go if it's let fester....the principal will probably say that there are no subs available to cover, needs of the school, blah blah blah. So it looks like it might be a bit of a battle of wits, him waiting it out so it gets harder and harder to justify getting a sub on time,,,, and you waiting it out refusing to come in after school.

You could go all gung-ho but maybe find out what the rest of the teachers are doing in your school. If they've all agreed to come in after work then you're going to look bad. You can request from your union rep to call a meeting at any stage amongst the school union staff. It doesn't need to be flagged as a 'SLARS crisis meeting', but more of a regular meeting (giving updates on the ballot, issues surrounding CIDs or whatever), then you could get the Chair of the meeting to raise the issue anonymously on your behalf, and restate the Union position as a gentle reminder. You can then gauge the mood of the staff; if they're adamant that they will do them outside school, then you might become ostracised by scuppering or delaying the SLARs, or if they are all in favour of requesting the proper subcover should at least be sought ASAP, then you might have an easier fight on your hands with a bit of support and solidarity.

evolving_doors · 08-12-2018 2:13pm

evolving_doors wrote: »

Schools have been allocated sub hours for slars. Could he not just get the PMEs to do it? Time enough for them to be doing slars.
Unless one of the PMEs is his nephew or something!

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Have they?

YES

The additional two hours will be facilitated by the provision of additional paid substitution hours to the school – not within the Supervision and Substitution Scheme.

https://www.asti.ie/uploads/media/Update_Sept.pdf

I wonder if you did them outside the school time would the Principal not claim these hours.... uncomfortable questions :pac:

km79 · 08-12-2018 2:20pm

Those hours are not for SLAR subbing
Those hours are for the SLAR facilitator
Equates to 3 classes in 40 minute schools
They can be taken in the days before or after the SLAR . It's at the discretion of the facilitator ..........

SligoBrewer · 08-12-2018 4:32pm

evolving_doors wrote: »

YES

https://www.asti.ie/uploads/media/Update_Sept.pdf

I wonder if you did them outside the school time would the Principal not claim these hours.... uncomfortable questions :pac:

That's for the facilitator.

evolving_doors · 08-12-2018 5:15pm

Ok thanks.
Anyone else know if subcover is provided?

Chilli Con Kearney · 08-12-2018 7:25pm

PureClareGold wrote: »

Agree it's absolutely meaningless for me to sit down with my colleagues and look at pieces of work that students have produced in their room. There's nothing I can learn from having these discussions around what standard they are. Nothing I can learn from my colleagues about the way they approach things in their classroom. I did my dip 23 years ago and sure I learned everything then and I should just be allowed go into my classroom, close the door, open the book and not have to learn anything new myself.

Totally. It's really important to learn how the others marked a project that is worth nothing. We can all discuss which grade descriptors we gave, which are worth nothing. Then discuss why we gave these worthless grade descriptors. We can waste time standardising these worthless grades after this.

But we won't discuss the fact that people hogged the computer room for two weeks, or the fact that half the computers don't work, or the fact that we don't have the correct cameras and SD cards or USB wires to save these, or that we haven't been provided with devices and storage for the presentations, or that the CBA 2 date has been deferred because the whole thing is a mess. God no, this is North Korean style CBA. All positive here. All learning. All moving forward. I heart CBAs. I heart junior cycle. No crumbling at the foundations here. No dirtied brand called JCT that we all know is a farce and dumbing down. Educational reform right here. Amazing stuff. And sure look, aren't those grades amazing. And sure look, aren't we all learning from each other. Amazing. This reform is great craic. Why are people complaining? Idiots.

OP - SLARs are supposed to be in school time. The most recent circular states this. Principals can't pick and choose from circulars. It's in black and white. That's it. End of. If there's an issue, refer him to the circular (which I'm sure he's read). If that doesn't work, tell him you've called the union and they said the same. If that doesn't work, tell him that you aren't doing it outside school and that's it. You need to set your stall out now for future years.

Icsics · 08-12-2018 7:46pm

Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »

Totally. It's really important to learn how the others marked a project that is worth nothing. We can all discuss which grade descriptors we gave, which are worth nothing. Then discuss why we gave these worthless grade descriptors. We can waste time standardising these worthless grades after this.

But we won't discuss the fact that people hogged the computer room for two weeks, or the fact that half the computers don't work, or the fact that we don't have the correct cameras and SD cards or USB wires to save these, or that we haven't been provided with devices and storage for the presentations, or that the CBA 2 date has been deferred because the whole thing is a mess. God no, this is North Korean style CBA. All positive here. All learning. All moving forward. I heart CBAs. I heart junior cycle. No crumbling at the foundations here. No dirtied brand called JCT that we all know is a farce and dumbing down. Educational reform right here. Amazing stuff. And sure look, aren't those grades amazing. And sure look, aren't we all learning from each other. Amazing. This reform is great craic. Why are people complaining? Idiots.

OP - SLARs are supposed to be in school time. The most recent circular states this. Principals can't pick and choose from circulars. It's in black and white. That's it. End of. If there's an issue, refer him to the circular (which I'm sure he's read). If that doesn't work, tell him you've called the union and they said the same. If that doesn't work, tell him that you aren't doing it outside school and that's it. You need to set your stall out now for future years.

Thanks Chilli, an excellent summary of the state of affairs!

PureClareGold · 08-12-2018 8:32pm

Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »

Totally. It's really important to learn how the others marked a project that is worth nothing. We can all discuss which grade descriptors we gave, which are worth nothing. Then discuss why we gave these worthless grade descriptors. We can waste time standardising these worthless grades after this.

But we won't discuss the fact that people hogged the computer room for two weeks, or the fact that half the computers don't work, or the fact that we don't have the correct cameras and SD cards or USB wires to save these, or that we haven't been provided with devices and storage for the presentations, or that the CBA 2 date has been deferred because the whole thing is a mess. God no, this is North Korean style CBA. All positive here. All learning. All moving forward. I heart CBAs. I heart junior cycle. No crumbling at the foundations here. No dirtied brand called JCT that we all know is a farce and dumbing down. Educational reform right here. Amazing stuff. And sure look, aren't those grades amazing. And sure look, aren't we all learning from each other. Amazing. This reform is great craic. Why are people complaining? Idiots.

OP - SLARs are supposed to be in school time. The most recent circular states this. Principals can't pick and choose from circulars. It's in black and white. That's it. End of. If there's an issue, refer him to the circular (which I'm sure he's read). If that doesn't work, tell him you've called the union and they said the same. If that doesn't work, tell him that you aren't doing it outside school and that's it. You need to set your stall out now for future years.

Totally agree. The only reason any of us became teachers was because exams that are worth percentages are all that matter in education. Anyone who isn't good at a state exam is dumb as being good at presenting and researching is dumbing down and these students who don't do well in exams should have no chance to feel good about themselves in school or learn anything else except what's on the exam. I always get 15 As at least every year. They are my results of course not the students.

Chilli Con Kearney · 08-12-2018 9:10pm

PureClareGold wrote: »

Totally agree. The only reason any of us became teachers was because exams that are worth percentages are all that matter in education. Anyone who isn't good at a state exam is dumb as being good at presenting and researching is dumbing down and these students who don't do well in exams should have no chance to feel good about themselves in school or learn anything else except what's on the exam. I always get 15 As at least every year. They are my results of course not the students.

Tell me about it - it's all about the grades. The good ones are down to me. The bad ones are a result of them not listening to me. I know it all sure.

Great to see the us finally engaging in a worthless activity to develop these soft skills in our kids. I mean, why not make it worth something? That'd be good. But it'd require outside evaluation and costs from the SEC so no deal.

Pity our great leaders, researchers and curriculum advisors didn't actually put any stock and weight in these CBAs. You can dress them up whatever way you like man, but the cold harsh reality is that parents, students and teachers alike know they aren't worth anything and that's the primary reason why we are here - to work towards grades of some sort or other and help our students develop around, through and during this. I mean, talk about rounded, holistic education. The languages and our students' ability to use these orally? Major element here. Worth nothing now. I mean, you literally couldn't make this up.

Can't wait to see them comparing grade descriptors when they get their results. Can't wait for the parents to be shouting from the rooftops about Jimmy's descriptors either. All in the name of reform of course.

But yeah, the little teachers don't know what they are talking about. Only focussing on grades. They don't get it. Us lads in the ivory tower who have barely walked into schools, but read research from other countries, we know.

I'm all for holistic learning and development. It's core to my job man. I honestly (sarcasm aside) do believe in it. I've been doing this for years. I do believe in it but I'm also aware of the endgame and currency of exams in the real world that our students go into and will face in the future. That's not going to change. This whole JC is doing a complete disservice to our students.

OP - please do not back down on this. It's so important that you dig in here. So frustrating to see this JC in action. So unorganised, so uncoordinated. Honestly, it's like throwing a deck of cards on the ground and expecting the teachers to pick them all up and sort it.

PureClareGold · 08-12-2018 9:48pm

Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »

Tell me about it - it's all about the grades. The good ones are down to me. The bad ones are a result of them not listening to me. I know it all sure.

Great to see the us finally engaging in a worthless activity to develop these soft skills in our kids. I mean, why not make it worth something? That'd be good. But it'd require outside evaluation and costs from the SEC so no deal.

Pity our great leaders, researchers and curriculum advisors didn't actually put any stock and weight in these CBAs. You can dress them up whatever way you like man, but the cold harsh reality is that parents, students and teachers alike know they aren't worth anything and that's the primary reason why we are here - to work towards grades of some sort or other and help our students develop around, through and during this. I mean, talk about rounded, holistic education. The languages and our students' ability to use these orally? Major element here. Worth nothing now. I mean, you literally couldn't make this up.

Can't wait to see them comparing grade descriptors when they get their results. Can't wait for the parents to be shouting from the rooftops about Jimmy's descriptors either. All in the name of reform of course.

But yeah, the little teachers don't know what they are talking about. Only focussing on grades. They don't get it. Us lads in the ivory tower who have barely walked into schools, but read research from other countries, we know.

I'm all for holistic learning and development. It's core to my job man. I honestly (sarcasm aside) do believe in it. I've been doing this for years. I do believe in it but I'm also aware of the endgame and currency of exams in the real world that our students go into and will face in the future. That's not going to change. This whole JC is doing a complete disservice to our students.

OP - please do not back down on this. It's so important that you dig in here. So frustrating to see this JC in action. So unorganised, so uncoordinated. Honestly, it's like throwing a deck of cards on the ground and expecting the teachers to pick them all up and sort it.

Ya sure of course it would have to be evaluated from outside. No way we could actually be trusted to grade our own students like all the other dumb teachers in other countries do. Let's be treated the same as other professionals like I wouldn't expect my doctor to tell me how sick I am or my dentist to be able to tell me how good or bad my teeth are.
And of course we shouldn't back down on slars in school time. It will be so important that when all subjects are in a big chunk of our s&s allocations will have to be used up by slars so them pesky students can't be playing matches or the like as there will be no cover left on our allocation. We will have won then cause the students will loose out in the end but who cares about the students sure.

km79 · 08-12-2018 9:54pm

PureClareGold wrote: »

Ya sure of course it would have to be evaluated from outside. No way we could actually be trusted to grade our own students like all the other dumb teachers in other countries do. Let's be treated the same as other professionals like I wouldn't expect my doctor to tell me how sick I am or my dentist to be able to tell me how good or bad my teeth are.
And of course we shouldn't back down on slars in school time. It will be so important that when all subjects are in a big chunk of our s&s allocations will have to be used up by slars so them pesky students can't be playing matches or the like as there will be no cover left on our allocation. We will have won then cause the students will loose out in the end but who cares about the students sure.

The matches that can’t be scheduled because of the Year round CBAS across the various subjects in 2 year groups is it ?
Me thinks you protest too much .........
That post is EXTREMELY disingenuous too. The posters posting on here on a Saturday evening clearly care about their students . Some/a lot think the new system is failing their students. They feel that the new curricula are dumbed down and not offering enough depth to their subjects for theor students .
There are positives . But not every single thing about it is positive . And I don’t believe that you think it is either .......

Chilli Con Kearney · 08-12-2018 10:01pm

PureClareGold wrote: »

Ya sure of course it would have to be evaluated from outside. No way we could actually be trusted to grade our own students like all the other dumb teachers in other countries do. Let's be treated the same as other professionals like I wouldn't expect my doctor to tell me how sick I am or my dentist to be able to tell me how good or bad my teeth are.
And of course we shouldn't back down on slars in school time. It will be so important that when all subjects are in a big chunk of our s&s allocations will have to be used up by slars so them pesky students can't be playing matches or the like as there will be no cover left on our allocation. We will have won then cause the students will loose out in the end but who cares about the students sure.

Distance and anonymity is one of the best things about our grading system. It keeps it clear and uninfluenced. Why change that? Because somebody else did? The lads in Scandinavia? With 16 in a class? With resources pouring out their ears? We don't do much well but independent and anonymous marking is one.

You don't need to talk to me about kids, games, development, etc. I'm out there doing training sessions. I'm doing trips. I'm doing extra hours. But those who know better keep loading on. Eventually I may just say no. I'm no martyr, no hero. I'm not looking for thanks. I'm just going to stop and yeah, the students will lose out. But there's only so much we can give.

But that's no counted, not valued, nor respected. But look, rock on the new system. We'll have kids with soft skills. Doing a watered down Leaving Cert that universities will complain about and we'll revert to where we came from. You couldn't make this stuff up.

PureClareGold · 08-12-2018 11:05pm

Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »

Distance and anonymity is one of the best things about our grading system. It keeps it clear and uninfluenced. Why change that? Because somebody else did? The lads in Scandinavia? With 16 in a class? With resources pouring out their ears? We don't do much well but independent and anonymous marking is one.

You don't need to talk to me about kids, games, development, etc. I'm out there doing training sessions. I'm doing trips. I'm doing extra hours. But those who know better keep loading on. Eventually I may just say no. I'm no martyr, no hero. I'm not looking for thanks. I'm just going to stop and yeah, the students will lose out. But there's only so much we can give.

But that's no counted, not valued, nor respected. But look, rock on the new system. We'll have kids with soft skills. Doing a watered down Leaving Cert that universities will complain about and we'll revert to where we came from. You couldn't make this stuff up.

Ya I know because the old system so valued extra curricular it used to be reported on for the inter cert and junior cert. This new jcpa has no where on it where extra curricular can be counted, valued and respected. You couldn't make this stuff up.

Chilli Con Kearney · 08-12-2018 11:44pm

PureClareGold wrote: »

Ya I know because the old system so valued extra curricular it used to be reported on for the inter cert and junior cert. This new jcpa has no where on it where extra curricular can be counted, valued and respected. You couldn't make this stuff up.

Fair point. The follow on leaving cert profile of achievement will be great. Billy is in line with expectations in a few subjects and is yet to meet expectations in some. He played sport and was in the student council. He did the gaisce too.

That'll go down a treat.

PureClareGold · 08-12-2018 11:49pm

Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »

Fair point. The follow on leaving cert profile of achievement will be great. Billy is in line with expectations in a few subjects and is yet to meet expectations in some. He played sport and was in the student council. He did the gaisce too.

That'll go down a treat.

Depends on who Billy really is doesn't it. For Billy that could be a fantastic achievement and one he hand his family can be very proud of. I'd be interested to know what he did for Gaisce, and what he learned about himself and life in general from that. Being a member of the student Council shows he has leadership potential. What did he learn from that? What would he change?
I know a lot more about Billy from your description of him than if the SEC sent me down something that said Billy is 240 points.

deiseindublin · 08-12-2018 11:54pm

PureClareGold wrote: »

I know a lot more about Billy from your description of him than if the SEC sent me down something that said Billy is 240 points.

An awful pity though that we still don't know if he's literate or not!

PureClareGold · 08-12-2018 11:57pm

deiseindublin wrote: »

An awful pity though that we still don't know if he's literate or not!

And if he has difficulty with literacy does that make him less of a person than the 625 pointer?

km79 · 08-12-2018 11:59pm

PureClareGold wrote: »

Depends on who Billy really is doesn't it. .

It sure does . You have inadvertently nailed it.
Say Billy is the principals son/daughter .
Say you are an NQT
Say you want a job

You can save your spiel. I live and work in the real world . We all know how that story will end.

Well done Billy. You have performed Above Expectations . Heck maybe you were even Exceptional.

Ruairi you Have Yet to meet expectations. Alas you are no longer around to receive your Profile of “Achievement “ ........
Good night all

PureClareGold · 09-12-2018 12:06am

km79 wrote: »

It sure does . You have inadvertently nailed it.
Say Billy is the principals son/daughter .
Say you are an NQT
Say you want a job

You can save your spiel. I live and work in the real world . We all know how that story will end.

Well done Billy. You have performed Above Expectations . Heck maybe you were even Exceptional.

Ruairi you Have Yet to meet expectations. Alas you are no longer around to receive your Profile of “Achievement “ ........
Good night all

And that will do Billy no good at all so in the long run Billy and his principal parent will suffer with false hopes. Their loss

Chilli Con Kearney · 09-12-2018 12:14am

PureClareGold wrote: »

Depends on who Billy really is doesn't it. For Billy that could be a fantastic achievement and one he hand his family can be very proud of. I'd be interested to know what he did for Gaisce, and what he learned about himself and life in general from that. Being a member of the student Council shows he has leadership potential. What did he learn from that? What would he change?
I know a lot more about Billy from your description of him than if the SEC sent me down something that said Billy is 240 points.

Jeez man. Get your head out of the sand. Seriously.

Yes, there are issues with the current system. But you're painting the new one like it's going to revolutionise things. It's not. It's watered down. It's unclear. It's deliberately vague. It's under funded, under thought. It's long term cost saving. That's the ultimate aim here.

You're literally the only teacher, other than those on the pdst, who say it's any use. It's going to be a massive disservice to students in the future. They will be ill prepared for third and fourth level academics. The universities and employers will be looking at us asking what sort of students are we producing. Then they'll complain and we'll revert.

SLAR

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