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2018 Fares Determination

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    #2
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Further summary
    Dublin Bus
    • For the third year in a row fare increases have been modest with a number of the main Leap fares unchanged and any increase in cash single fares can be avoided by availing of the lower Leap fares.
    • Adult Leap no change for 1-3 stages and 13+ stages along with cash 13+ stages and schoolchild cash fare.
    • Other adult Leap and cash fares up by up to 5.6% and schoolchild Leap up 1 cent.
    • Higher child fare drops 5 cent while lowest child fare increases by 5 cent
    • Nitelink, ramblers, monthlies & annuals up 1.4% to 2.0%
    • City centre fare to be withdrawn by end January 2018

    Luas
    • Introduce a city centre off-peak €1.00 fare for one year to celebrate the launch of Luas CrossCity.
    • Introduce an evening peak from 16:00 to 19:00 and extend the morning peak from 07:00 to 10:00.
    • Adjust adult single fares with a view to facilitating the introduction of a short distance and a
      longer distance fare as part of Bus Connects with fare adjusted between 0% and 5%.
    • No change to child leap or cash single or return fares.
    • Increase 1-day, 7-day and 30-day fares by between 1.4% and just under 5%.
    • Monthly and annual up by 10% to €110 and €1,100 respectively. This is only the second increase since January 2013 and this ticket still offers excellent value.

    Iarnród Éireann
    • Adjust the fare structure for the Cork commuter lines reducing the number of fares zones from 5 to 3 and adjusting the origin-destinations to reflect a more distance based pricing structure
    • After no increase in SHZ fares for 2017 fares increase by between 0% and 4.6%
    • SHZ and intercity Taxsaver fares to increase by 0.5% to 1.6%
    • Most intercity express single fares reduced by 5%
    • Many economy 2 single and return fares no increase while average increase of 1.2%
    • Intercity adult and child weekly up average of 1.2%

    Bus Éireann
    This determination will see the expansion of the city fare area in Cork, Limerick and Galway to better reflect the current movement of people which will include new city suburbs and industrial areas. The Leap discount has been extended from 20% to 30% on stage carriage services and from 27% to 30% on city services

    Regional cities & towns
    • No increase in Leap fares with some Leap fares dropping by 1 cent.
    • Cash fare up 10 cent adult, 5 cent child
    • 1-day, 7-day, monthly and annual vary from -1.8% to + 5.0% with a small number of larger increases to fares which provided exceptional value - fares adjusted to move closer to Authority’s recommendations
    .
    Stage Carriage
    • All Leap fares dropping by an average 18%.
    • Average drop in adult cash fares of -5.1% with just 4 fares increasing.
    • Average drop in child and student cash fares of -10.0% with just 3 out of a total of 68 fares increasing.
    • Most adult, student and Child returns adjusted downwards but some upwards range from -15% to + 5.0%.
    • Adult 10 Journey average increase of 1.0% with adjustments from -5.8% to + 4.6%.
    • Child and student 10 Journey fares average drop of 2.2% with adjustments from -9.7% to + 3.2%.
    • Adult monthly taxsaver varies -7.0% to + 3.2%.
    • Adult annual drop from -0.5% to -10.4% with fares on average 6.5% cheaper than in 2014.

    Multi-operator Fares
    As part of BusConnects the plan is to allow transfer between modes without financial penalty and in line with this objective the Authority have determined that there will be no increase in multi-operator fares for 2018.

    Leap Capping
    All Leap caps both daily and weekly including multi-operator caps will remain at current levels.

    All the individual fares for each of the four operators can be found in the Appendices – Detailed Faretables.

    Biggest winners of this without doubt are passengers on stage carriage services on Bus Eireann or use Cork Commuter rail this is very good news with fairly significant reductions in fare.

    Biggest losers are those who use the city center fare on Dublin Bus, although this will be offset a little by the new city center fare on the LUAS and also those on monthly and annual LUAS tickets will lose out.


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    #3
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,823 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    I'm hit by 20 quid a year. My partner is hit by about 90 - time to get tax saver there....


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    #4
    Van.Bosch
    Registered Users Posts: 2,851 ✭✭✭Van.Bosch


    Very sneaky time to announce them, looks like they are trying to sneak them in on a Friday afternoon of a bank holiday weekend.

    There seems to be a slight move towards a single bus fare with fare 2 going up and 3 staying as is.


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    #5
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Van.Bosch wrote: »
    There seems to be a slight move towards a single bus fare with fare 2 going up and 3 staying as is.

    Child fare on Dublin bus is the clearest example of that, lower fare going up higher fare going down.


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    #6
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,495 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    devnull wrote: »
    Child fare on Dublin bus is the clearest example of that, lower fare going up higher fare going down.

    Also the elimination of the city center fare goes a long way towards making a flat fare easier.

    Though against this, I'm surprised to see no change in the stage 1 to 3 fare!

    Previously the fares looked like this:

    1.50 (+.55) 2.05 (+.55) 2.60

    Which was nice and balanced and looked like it would make it easy to pick the center fare and get rid of the other two. But now it looks like:

    1.50 (+.65) 2.15 (+.45) 2.60

    More unbalanced and a bit odd. The only thing I can think of is that they are looking at the current fares and can see that there is more 1.50 fares then 2.60 fares and estimate that they need a higher flat fare to make up for the lose of those 1.50 fares. But it will lead to more complaints from the 1.50 people having a bigger jump when they finally drop it.


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    #7
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,495 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Also with the extension of the city zone in Cork, etc. They should really be going no driver interaction, flat fare tag-on on BE buses. Interacting with the driver makes no sense when almost everyone is paying the same damn fare!!


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    #8
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    bk wrote: »
    Also the elimination of the city center fare goes a long way towards making a flat fare easier.

    Whilst it will mean a fair increase for those who use it, if we want to have a flat fare system or a simplified fare system it was always going to have to be abolished sooner rather than later.
    I'm surprised to see no change in the stage 1 to 3 fare!

    Previously the fares looked like this:

    1.50 (+.55) 2.05 (+.55) 2.60

    Which was nice and balanced and looked like it would make it easy to pick the center fare and get rid of the other two. But now it looks like:

    1.50 (+.65) 2.15 (+.45) 2.60

    To me it indicates that the next step will be to merge the two highest adult fare bands into one.

    The second band going up and the third band staying the same is indicative of that happening and it looks like we're moving towards a flat rate child fare, in the next set of determinations.


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    #9
    Van.Bosch
    Registered Users Posts: 2,851 ✭✭✭Van.Bosch


    Yeah - the child fair could even have been done here at €1 for leap.

    Are the new Luas Cross City dates listed?


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    #10
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,346 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    Applies to Leap cardholders.....

    No change to daily fare capping for DB or multi-operator so even if you are making four x 4-13 stage bus journeys a day, there will be no increase as the 4 x €2.15 fares will be capped at €7.

    The Authority has determined that the daily and weekly caps both on Dublin Bus and the multi-operator caps will remain unchanged for 2018.


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    #11
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,495 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    bk wrote: »
    Also with the extension of the city zone in Cork, etc. They should really be going no driver interaction, flat fare tag-on on BE buses. Interacting with the driver makes no sense when almost everyone is paying the same damn fare!!

    And I see they have now completely dropped the outer green zone. Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford are all just one zone now.

    Which also begs the question, why do you have to actually pre-buy 1 day, 7 day or monthly tickets for these places? Why can't they implement them as a 1/7/30 day cap like in Dublin?!

    It really doesn't make sense to me, all of these places look perfectly ready for full flat fares, zero driver interaction ticketing and proper capping, just do it. Install right hand validators and be done with it. For a change Cork, Limerick, etc. can lead Dublin in public transport ideas.


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    #12
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,899 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Flat fare HAS to be introduced whatever the amount decided is. Cash free too, oh the joys, although that seems to be quite rare now, but still happens now and then.

    Everyone knows that a flat fare/cash free system is needed. So hopefully it will happen sometime soon.

    The dwell times on DB for anything other than the max fare or taxsaver/student cards is just absolutely ridiculous now. (interraction with driver).

    And the drivers will just drive, which is their job. I hope they are included in any forum for this too.

    An added bonus in 2025 (!) would be faster card readers, so I live in hope!

    But let's be positive, it seems to be going in the right direction that many regulars on here have been advocating for a long time.


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    #13
    geecee
    Registered Users Posts: 896 ✭✭✭geecee


    Anyone any idea how the New Luas €1 city centre off-peak fare will work?

    It seems that its is a new €1 fare to near the CC, but not actually a cross city fare?

    e.g. on the luas site they say Connolly/Busarus eastbound is €1

    Surely the point of the fare should be:
    Connolly to Stephens green, Smithfield or The Ilac is €1
    That would make a city centre fare!


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    #14
    bebeman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 345 ✭✭bebeman


    wrote:
    The payments that Dublin Bus receive from the Department of Social Protection for carrying people with free travel passes has been frozen for the past 7years at 2010 levels and this is resulting in fare paying passengers partially subsidising those with free Travel.

    The important bit.
    Insane amount of FTP in use, over 1,000,000, going up all the time.
    Fare paying passengers are been taken for mugs with increases year after year.


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    #15
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Deedsie wrote: »
    Will this have any effect on Bus reann expressway service prices?

    They are commercial services so they are determined by the operator.


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    #16
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    bebeman wrote: »
    The important bit.
    Insane amount of FTP in use, over 1,000,000, going up all the time.
    Fare paying passengers are been taken for mugs with increases year after year.

    Incredibly important point that badly needs sorting.


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    #17
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,495 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    marno21 wrote: »
    Incredibly important point that badly needs sorting.

    Interestingly it seems only 20% of fare are FTA, according to the NTA:

    https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/1027/915727-fares/
    20% of all public transport passengers are availing of free travel.

    Which seems like a lot less then the 1 million above would indicate. I suspect OAP's just don't use public transport as much as people working etc. Which makes sense.

    To be honest 20% of fares free seems reasonable. Of course how much companies should get for each fare or if they should be left on peak services is a different question.


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    #18
    bebeman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 345 ✭✭bebeman


    bk wrote: »
    Interestingly it seems only 20% of fare are FTA, according to the NTA:

    https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/1027/915727-fares/



    Which seems like a lot less then the 1 million above would indicate. I suspect OAP's just don't use public transport as much as people working etc. Which makes sense.

    To be honest 20% of fares free seems reasonable. Of course how much companies should get for each fare or if they should be left on peak services is a different question.
    Who are you going to believe, the NTA or your lyin eyes?
    Next time your on a DB bus just look at the people using the validator, green card, easy to spot, its way more that 20%.


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    #19
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,495 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    bebeman wrote: »
    Who are you going to believe, the NTA or your lyin eyes?
    Next time your on a DB bus just look at the people using the validator, green card, easy to spot, its way more that 20%.

    I'll believe the stats gathered by the NTA thanks. Since they have access to all the ticket information from the machines.

    To be honest, when on the bus near the door I often watch what is happening at the door and while I don't count, the vast majority of people seem to be paying from what I can see, so I'm not particularly surprised by this figure.


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    #20
    ArmaniJeanss
    Registered Users Posts: 13,310 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    bk wrote: »
    I'll believe the stats gathered by the NTA thanks. Since they have access to all the ticket information from the machines.

    Well the phrase they used "20% of all public transport passengers are availing of free travel" is rather curious. Almost meaningless.

    Example.
    Customers A, B, C & D use their free travel pass 20 times a week.
    Customers E, F ... Z only use public transport once a week but when they do they pay.
    Clearly only 20% of these customers are availing of free travel. But at ground level it will seem a lot more.

    We get 7M tourists a year. If 1M of those use public transport for a handful of journeys are they getting put into the 'paid' column?

    Maybe the NTA meant '20% of journeys' or '20% of regular commuters' but would have been nice if they'd made this clear.


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    #21
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,495 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    From the fare determination doc by the NTA:

    https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Determination_order_2017.pdf
    The free travel grant from the Department of Social Protection is intended to compensate the operators when they carry free travel pass holders. The level of funding for the scheme was frozen at just over €75 million as part of the National Recovery Plan 2011-2014. While total passenger numbers experienced a significant decline over the years up to 2012, free travel passenger numbers increased by 18% for the four operators from 37.4 million passenger journeys in 2010 to 44.5 million in 2016. The steady increase in free travel passenger numbers was not matched by funding from the Department of Social Protection. In 2015 free travel scheme passengers represented almost 20% of passengers on PSO supported services. The freeze in DSP funding as part of the National Recovery Plan 2011-2014 has resulted in a greater proportion of revenue from fare paying passengers and the subsidy from the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport contributing to the cost of the Free Travel Scheme.

    Some pretty definitive and interesting numbers there for you.

    So free travel users are definitely up and it does seem to be causing issues with the DSP freeze and fare paying passengers are highly directly subsidizing free travel users which seems a little unfair.


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    #22
    brokenarms
    Registered Users Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭brokenarms


    bk wrote: »
    I'll believe the stats gathered by the NTA thanks. Since they have access to all the ticket information from the machines.

    To be honest, when on the bus near the door I often watch what is happening at the door and while I don't count, the vast majority of people seem to be paying from what I can see, so I'm not particularly surprised by this figure.

    It really depends on what area you are in. Some of the places we go you would think that they give out passes with house keys. The rest are fake red and white old passes that seem to last forever.
    It also depends on the time of day. After rush hour and the working public are not around . Its more like 50% plus.


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    #23
    XPS_Zero
    Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭XPS_Zero


    bebeman wrote: »
    The important bit.
    Insane amount of FTP in use, over 1,000,000, going up all the time.
    Fare paying passengers are been taken for mugs with increases year after year.


    It's going up all the time because of demographic changes that begun in the late 1980s. Our population, like the rest of Europe, is getting older by average, hence why we need more immigration or a higher birth rate to keep up benefits like pensions

    Fare paying passengers are not being screwed by FT program because it's not funded by CIE it's funded by DSP and the funding went up in the latest budget to cover what was, during the recession years, a small de-facto CIE subsidy becuase the FT funding was frozen.
    Recent research in the UK suggests such programs are a net contributor to state funds or break even, and if it was abolished in the morning (which will never ever happen) your fares would go UP not down because the DSP subsidy would vanish, which would mean:

    -Bus Eireann would lose 20% of it's funding
    -IE would lose 10% of their funding
    -Luas would loose 10% of their funding

    Some of that would be compensated for by former FT users paying for their essential journeys (and only those as they'd ditch the other journeys they'd been making previously for health reasons) but your fares would still go up, not down.

    I'm getting sick of seeing a program that is a huge contributor to the countries health budget and to the social and health benefit of a lot of people being villified because a few people see some fellas in white tracksuits on their route using one and get annoyed. It's an easy scapegoat.

    You forget every single one of those FT users was also a fare paying passenger in the past (some for 70+ years) and in the case of many of the disabled ones will be fare paying passengers again in the future paying for YOUR FT card which I'm sure just like when you get your free GP card and eventually full medical card as they are phased in, you won't be turning down.

    Your fares are going up because the govt has consistently underfunded public transport in Ireland and because CIE is disgustingly bloated and inefficient, not because of powerless seniors and disabled people.


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    #24
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,495 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Well XPS_Zero, the NTA document linked above does specifically say that there has been a shortfall in FTP funding from the DSP due to the freeze, which has in fact been made up by higher fares from the fare paying public.

    I'm of the opinion that if we have FTP's then they need to be funded in full by the DSP and thus out of the tax paid by everyone and not just by the public who uses public transport, which IMO is unfair and makes public transport unnecessarily expensive for everyone else.

    I agree with you that the FTP gets rolled out too often by some folks from CIE companies to be the cause of all their woes, when it really isn't the core issue (but it doesn't help) and is overall a distraction from fixing those real core issues you mentioned.

    However given the way our demographics are going, I think we do have major issues with the FTP that will need to be tackled and likely reformed.


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    #25
    Marty Bird
    Registered Users Posts: 1,871 ✭✭✭Marty Bird


    I don’t know how accurate the IE/NTA collect the data I see an awful lot traveling to and from intermediate stations that are unmanned and the gates are left open at both points so the they don’t have a ticket or tag on/off.


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    #26
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Marty Bird wrote: »
    I don’t no how accurate the IE/NTA collect the data I see an awful lot traveling to and from intermediate stations that are unmanned and the gates are left open at both points so the they don’t have a ticket or tag on/off.

    I used to work in Eastpoint Business Park for a while and also down by Grand Canal Dock for a while as well and in years of commuting from the Northside to CR and the Southside to GCD I never once saw a ticket inspector of any kind and saw a massive amount of hurdling of barriers or barriers being left open.

    Revenue protection seems to be at it's highest between Connolly and Tara Street but in my experience the real evasion is on those who are making short journeys either side of the city without going through the city center, especially in very early mornings and late at night.

    There are also some stations which have extremely poor layouts where it's ridiculously easy to avoid going through or even near a gate which in conjunction with the poor revenue protection, almost promote ticket-less travel.


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    #27
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,672 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    bk wrote: »
    Interestingly it seems only 20% of fare are FTA, according to the NTA:

    https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/1027/915727-fares/



    Which seems like a lot less then the 1 million above would indicate. I suspect OAP's just don't use public transport as much as people working etc. Which makes sense.

    To be honest 20% of fares free seems reasonable. Of course how much companies should get for each fare or if they should be left on peak services is a different question.

    I'm not surprised, know lots of old people who have passes and would only use public transport once or twice a year for a longer distance trip etc.

    20% is still very high, from a sustainability level it needs to drop to 10% or below or Goverment pay 80% per head in terms of costs.

    Taking IE as an example 20% of 190 (3 ICR) is 38 seats and costing IE up to 1,000 in revenue (typical online single fare across the network) and in a lot of cases they get 0.


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    #28
    XPS_Zero
    Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭XPS_Zero


    bk wrote: »
    Well XPS_Zero, the NTA document linked above does specifically say that there has been a shortfall in FTP funding from the DSP due to the freeze, which has in fact been made up by higher fares from the fare paying public.

    I already spoke about that shortfall if you actually had read what I said, and the govt have increased the funding accordingly to take account of it.
    I'm of the opinion that if we have FTP's then they need to be funded in full by the DSP and thus out of the tax paid by everyone and not just by the public who uses public transport, which IMO is unfair and makes public transport unnecessarily expensive for everyone else.
    ...and that's now what's happening.

    However given the way our demographics are going, I think we do have major issues with the FTP that will need to be tackled and likely reformed.
    We don't really, expanding the retirement age will solve most of that, it's still the cheapest social program in existence it's not even 1% of the budget it's utter peanuts.

    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    I'm not surprised, know lots of old people who have passes and would only use public transport once or twice a year for a longer distance trip etc.

    20% is still very high, from a sustainability level it needs to drop to 10% or below or Goverment pay 80% per head in terms of costs.

    Taking IE as an example 20% of 190 (3 ICR) is 38 seats and costing IE up to 1,000 in revenue (typical online single fare across the network) and in a lot of cases they get 0.

    You are thinking of it the wrong way. There is almost no opportunity cost to the FTP. Busses and trains are rarely full to brim except commuter ones at rush hour, and there you don't lose the fare the person just waits for the next one, so FTP only affects revenue for the essential journeys the FT user would have had to take if they didn't have a pass

    It's not only an extremely cheap program but actually saves the state money so sustainability is not a problem in the slightest, we do have a population getting older but the card will be tied to an ever rising retirement age which will counter-act that as a problem. If the FT user was not on 95% of those Belfast or Cork train trips there would be an empty seat instead of the fare. What disabled (as I was) and seniors use the pass for is preventing shut in syndrome that often takes down older or long term sick people, use it to 'get out and about', and if you were talking €80 a ticket out of a weekly wage of 200-240 there is no way they'd pay that so the seat would lay empty BUT with the DSP subsidy gone so a fare hike for passengers to compensate.

    When people feel the need to complain about FT cards they ought to remind themselves that cancer, or some kind of mental illness could be right around the coner and they could have one, and they'll eventually retire and get one.


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    #29
    XPS_Zero
    Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭XPS_Zero


    bk wrote: »
    From the fare determination doc by the NTA:

    https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Determination_order_2017.pdf



    Some pretty definitive and interesting numbers there for you.

    So free travel users are definitely up and it does seem to be causing issues with the DSP freeze and fare paying passengers are highly directly subsidizing free travel users which seems a little unfair.


    Which, for the 100th time, is why the DSP funding has now gone up. But if anything this recession era freeze (which i clearly mentioned but people seem to b oddly bringing up as if its a counter to what I was saying...) is just canceling out some of the subsidy the DSP is paying for the fare paying passengers, in the case of 18% of BE money is DSP money so if the pass was gone and FT users went to essential travel only (as they would) their fares would go up not down.


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    #30
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,672 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    You are thinking of it the wrong way. There is almost no opportunity cost to the FTP. Busses and trains are rarely full to brim except commuter ones at rush hour, and there you don't lose the fare the person just waits for the next one, so FTP only affects revenue for the essential journeys the FT user would have had to take if they didn't have a pass

    It's not only an extremely cheap program but actually saves the state money so sustainability is not a problem in the slightest, we do have a population getting older but the card will be tied to an ever rising retirement age which will counter-act that as a problem. If the FT user was not on 95% of those Belfast or Cork train trips there would be an empty seat instead of the fare. What disabled (as I was) and seniors use the pass for is preventing shut in syndrome that often takes down older or long term sick people, use it to 'get out and about', and if you were talking €80 a ticket out of a weekly wage of 200-240 there is no way they'd pay that so the seat would lay empty BUT with the DSP subsidy gone so a fare hike for passengers to compensate.

    When people feel the need to complain about FT cards they ought to remind themselves that cancer, or some kind of mental illness could be right around the coner and they could have one, and they'll eventually retire and get one.

    There would be scope to reduce capacity on x services if FT was scrapped and all had to pay to use the train. Trains are more often than not full these days.


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    #31
    XPS_Zero
    Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭XPS_Zero


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    There would be scope to reduce capacity on x services if FT was scrapped and all had to pay to use the train. Trains are more often than not full these days.

    I've only seen trains full at Rush hour (when most FT users would not be traveling if they could avoid it), the only exception I'm aware of to that where a train is anywhere close to full is Belfast and Sligo services, more the former.

    With demand for PT growing I seriously doubt they'd start chopping off carriages without FT users. If they had to pay to use it they'd pay for essential journeys only, so take that money and minus it from the DSP subsidy which would now be gone and you get less money not more.


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