Question about number of occupants allowed in a two-bed apartment

rawn · 19-01-2015 6:53pm #1

My mother rents a 2 bed apartment. She moved in there alone but recently my brother became unemployed and needs to move in with her until he gets back on his feet, which could be a week or 6 months with the way jobs are now. Anyways, she's really confused about what she should tell the landlady. She's afraid that the rent will go up if she knows there's an extra occupant, or that if she takes rent off him each week she will be illegally sub-letting and may get kicked out. However, I think since he's a) her son and b) it's a 2-bed apartment, it should be fine that he's there so it would be no harm in informing the landlady, as they have a great relationship so far. The landlady drops by every few weeks to pick up bill money so I reckon it's better she is told than finds out, just in case. Can anyone clarify this for us? She is paying well below market rate so understandably does not want to rock the boat.

athtrasna · 19-01-2015 7:53pm

What does her lease say?

berger89 · 19-01-2015 7:59pm

Is your mother renting the apartment or a room in the apartment? If she's renting a room, then I'd say the landlord might want rent for the other room. If she's renting the apartment, your brother saying there probably won;t be an issue. But I think it'd depend on the landlady, and what she wants

rawn · 19-01-2015 8:19pm

berger89 wrote: »

Is your mother renting the apartment or a room in the apartment? If she's renting a room, then I'd say the landlord might want rent for the other room. If she's renting the apartment, your brother saying there probably won;t be an issue. But I think it'd depend on the landlady, and what she wants

She's renting the entire apartment, and she can't find her lease

berger89 · 19-01-2015 8:23pm

rawn wrote: »

She's renting the entire apartment, and she can't find her lease

I wouldn't be certain, but I would imagine then that it shouldn't matter too much. Kind of like when you pay for a hotel room. If you pay for the room, you can have 2 or 3 people stay.
If you pay person sharing, then that's different.

The landlady seems sound, so maybe it'll be grand!

rawn · 19-01-2015 8:47pm

berger89 wrote: »

I wouldn't be certain, but I would imagine then that it shouldn't matter too much. Kind of like when you pay for a hotel room. If you pay for the room, you can have 2 or 3 people stay.
If you pay person sharing, then that's different.

The landlady seems sound, so maybe it'll be grand!

Thanks, that's the way i see it as well, you rent a 2-bed so it's feasible to use them both! She's just a little paranoid that the rent will go up

Eldarion · 20-01-2015 10:47am

I wouldn't worry about it at all. It will only become an issue if you approach the landlord/agency asking for the brother to be added to the lease or something to that effect.

Victor · 20-01-2015 10:33pm

rawn wrote: »

if she takes rent off him each week she will be illegally sub-letting and may get kicked out.

That's a domestic arrangement for co-expenses, not sub-letting.

rawn wrote: »

She's afraid that the rent will go up if she knows there's an extra occupant

The rent can only be reviewed once per year.

macyard · 20-01-2015 10:37pm

rawn wrote: »

Thanks, that's the way i see it as well, you rent a 2-bed so it's feasible to use them both! She's just a little paranoid that the rent will go up

If he is going to be there long term more then a few days, LL should be allowed to vet him, rent can go up wear and tear and he needs to let his insurance know and register them on the prtb

20-01-2015 11:16pm

Personally I'd say nothing, the LL isn't going to find out. Even if the LL called around and he was there sure he is just visiting. Never understood people bringing trouble and hassle on themselves in these situations when saying nothing is the easiest option.

hfallada · 20-01-2015 11:30pm

I would say nothing! She is renting a 2 bed apartment and will only have 2 people in it. I see nothing wrong with it. I wouldnt tell the LL, as he/she might just look for an excuse to increase the rent

kippy · 20-01-2015 11:33pm

Viviana Shrilling Drizzle wrote: »

Personally I'd say nothing, the LL isn't going to find out. Even if the LL called around and he was there sure he is just visiting. Never understood people bringing trouble and hassle on themselves in these situations when saying nothing is the easiest option.

The easy option is always the best option........

What if the landlord does find out and doesn't take too kindly to not being informed?

21-01-2015 12:33am

kippy wrote: »

The easy option is always the best option........

What if the landlord does find out and doesn't take too kindly to not being informed?

If I was afraid of a gamble I wouldn't back horses.

The chances of getting caught are somewhere between slim and none.

gandalf · 21-01-2015 12:45am

It's a two bedroom apartment, she is renting the use of the whole apartment. The person moving in is her son and is not planning on staying long term. As far as I'd be concerned there is no issue here.

Tigger · 21-01-2015 12:55am

gandalf wrote: »

It's a two bedroom apartment, she is renting the use of the whole apartment. The person moving in is her son and is not planning on staying long term. As far as I'd be concerned there is no issue here.

Her son is her brother ?
Takes all sorts I suppose

Mrs OBumble · 21-01-2015 2:00am

Tigger wrote: »

Her son is her brother ?
Takes all sorts I suppose

The apartment-lease holder is also the OP's mother.

The OP's brother.

The apartment-lease holder's son.

OP - so what if the the LL does put the rent up while there are two people living there.

Surely your brother will be contributing to the rent from his dole.

The issue might come if he wants to claim RA, and as in most of Dublin the rent is above the cap. But I'd guess that the increase won't be so large that this is necessary, given that your mother is already paying for the 2bed - the rent will hardly double.

doc11 · 21-01-2015 2:09am

If rent allowance was payable to your mother she would be facing an increased contribution payable by her son.

Grandpa Hassan · 21-01-2015 10:20am

gandalf wrote: »

It's a two bedroom apartment, she is renting the use of the whole apartment. The person moving in is her son and is not planning on staying long term. As far as I'd be concerned there is no issue here.

The chances of the ll finding out are slim. So I probably wouldn't say anything.

But your statement is not wholly correct. She is renting the apartment, but the lease will be in her name and only she has the right to live there. Having guests is fine. People staying over. But having a person living there who is not on the lease is likely a breach of the lease agreement.

I rent my place having left Ireland. And I would be annoyed if I checked out the place and there was evidence of someone living there who is not on the lease. I would be speaking to the tenant and getting a new lease drawn up (if I was happy with the other tenant of course)

P. Breathnach · 21-01-2015 10:32am

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

... She is renting the apartment, but the lease will be in her name and only she has the right to live there. Having guests is fine. People staying over. But having a person living there who is not on the lease is likely a breach of the lease agreement...

Really? What about a couple in the breeding phase of life? Must a lease be amended every time a child is born?

In the situation described by OP, I think the appropriate thing to do is inform the landlady as a courtesy that the son will be staying with her for a while.

seamus · 21-01-2015 10:34am

The landlord has a right to know who is ordinarily resident in the property and a failure to disclose this information would be grounds to terminate the lease and evict.

As Victor says, the rent can only be reviewed once annually, so the landlord cannot do anything about it anyway.

She has more to lose by keeping quiet than by letting the landlord know her son is moving in.

Residential Tenancies Act, Section 16:

16.—In addition to the obligations arising by or under any other enactment, a tenant of a dwelling shall—
...
(n) notify in writing the landlord of the identity of each person (other than a multiple tenant) who, for the time being, resides ordinarily in the dwelling.

macyard · 21-01-2015 10:43am

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Really? What about a couple in the breeding phase of life? Must a lease be amended every time a child is born?

In the situation described by OP, I think the appropriate thing to do is inform the landlady as a courtesy that the son will be staying with her for a while.

LL needs to be informed of a new baby as the house might be unfit for a kid safety standard wise.

Grandpa Hassan · 21-01-2015 11:45am

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Really? What about a couple in the breeding phase of life? Must a lease be amended every time a child is born?

In the situation described by OP, I think the appropriate thing to do is inform the landlady as a courtesy that the son will be staying with her for a while.

Only if the LL wants to make the baby jointly and severally liable for the lease!!

A LL would want to put another 'grown up' on the lease if they move in. they are living there and they should be liable. Otherwise the LL has someone living in the property with absolutely no interest in maintaining it....not on the hook for the loss of any deposit if they trash the place. They can just walk away.

As a LL, if someones boyfriend or girlfriend moved in I would not change anything. Most LLs are pragmatic when it comes to this. And in this case, for a family member, I would not change anything. But I need to know. My insurance company needs to know the number of occupiers. But if a friend of the tenant moves in....they are going on the lease, or they will be asked to leave, or I will hold the tenant in breach of the lease.

Mrs OBumble · 21-01-2015 12:13pm

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

Only if the LL wants to make the baby jointly and severally liable for the lease!!

A LL would want to put another 'grown up' on the lease if they move in. they are living there and they should be liable. Otherwise the LL has someone living in the property with absolutely no interest in maintaining it.

Nope. Most leases say that the LL must be give permission for any person moving in, whether or not they go on the lease. Not all LLs want all adults on the lease. Some prefer to have one person who they can hold responsible, because if things go wrong it's far eaiser to chase one individual person.

Where things can get tricky is if the LL doesn't want the person living there, and refuses permission. For the OP, it might be because the son has some characteristic that the LL doesn't want in their tenants, but which are they are allowed to discriminate based on (eg he's unemployed). For a breeding couple, it might be because the house isn't baby-safe(*)

The LL is entitled to refuse, and can start the eviction process if the tenant goes ahead and moves the person in anyway.

The key to stopping this from happening is not the law. It's the relationship between the LL and the tenant: the best outcome is if the LL approves the son to stay there on a medium-term basis, within the terms of the current lease, ie the OP's mother stays responsible for the property and the whole of the rent. For new parents, it may be agreement that they tenants will move out before the child starts crawling.

Not telling the LL about the situation is usually the best way to ruin the relationship, and make them take a hard-line "no" approach. Telling them, in a way which makes it easy for them to say "yes" usually works best.

OP, fyi, just because a tenant rents a 2brm apartment doesn't mean they're automatically allowed to have 2 (or 4 if they're double rooms) people living there. There are various reasons why a 2nd brm cannot be regularly used as a bedroom - eg in my current apartment, the 2nd room doesn't have a separate means of escape because of heritage requirements, so I don't believe it meets the fire standards for a bedroom. However it's a very nice box-room, occasional guest room, etc - and I'm happy to pay the extra rent for the extra space. But I shouldn't be allowed to have a permanent housemake there.

21-01-2015 1:17pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Not telling the LL about the situation is usually the best way to ruin the relationship, and make them take a hard-line "no" approach. Telling them, in a way which makes it easy for them to say "yes" usually works best.

The chances of being found out are tiny though, especially as a LL is not entitled to show up unannounced.

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

eg in my current apartment, the 2nd room doesn't have a separate means of escape because of heritage requirements, so I don't believe it meets the fire standards for a bedroom. .

What do you mean by separate means of escape? Does it not have a window?

Grandpa Hassan · 21-01-2015 1:27pm

Viviana Shrilling Drizzle wrote: »

The chances of being found out are tiny though, especially as a LL is not entitled to show up unannounced.

That depends on the LL. I check my place personally about every two months (with all the required notice, at a convenient time) seeing as I don't necessarily trust tenants to tell me in a timely manner that there is a damp patch growing, or the gutter is leaking and dripping inside the wall, or that there is a problem which fs fixed immediately would be preferable for all. It would be pretty obvious if there is someone living (rather than just a guest staying) in the spare room....unless they moved everything out every few weeks, which is an awful lot of effort just to keep something from the LL

21-01-2015 1:40pm

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

That depends on the LL. I check my place personally about every two months (with all the required notice, at a convenient time) seeing as I don't necessarily trust tenants to tell me in a timely manner that there is a damp patch growing, or the gutter is leaking and dripping inside the wall, or that there is a problem which fs fixed immediately would be preferable for all. It would be pretty obvious if there is someone living (rather than just a guest staying) in the spare room....unless they moved everything out every few weeks, which is an awful lot of effort just to keep something from the LL

On the other hand I'm in my place a year and a half and have never met the LL, only even spoke to him over the phone twice (when I moved in first and to sort out a list of problems on one other occasion). He has only been at the house once in my time there to do some weeding about a year ago.

seamus · 21-01-2015 1:59pm

Viviana Shrilling Drizzle wrote: »

The chances of being found out are tiny though, especially as a LL is not entitled to show up unannounced.

Yes, but you do it because you have an obligation both legally and under the agreement that you signed and you're a decent human being who honours their contracts. If the landlord was to break the terms of the lease, the tenant would be spitting feathers, so it has to work the other way too.

Grandpa Hassan · 21-01-2015 2:37pm

I think that the message to the OP, and others in the same situation, is that depending on the nature of your interaction with your LL, you will probably not get found out, and you'll in all likelihood be okay.

But if your LL does find out, and takes exception, you really can't complain if you're turfed out. It is you that has broken the rules. Honesty is the best policy IMO. LLs are in the main (despite the stories on here) a decent bunch, and will not mind but also appreciate being told.

Graces7 · 21-01-2015 3:49pm

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

I think that the message to the OP, and others in the same situation, is that depending on the nature of your interaction with your LL, you will probably not get found out, and you'll in all likelihood be okay.

But if your LL does find out, and takes exception, you really can't complain if you're turfed out. It is you that has broken the rules. Honesty is the best policy IMO. LLs are in the main (despite the stories on here) a decent bunch, and will not mind but also appreciate being told.

Whoa! This is a temporary arrangement only. Like having a friend to stay. Not a permanent new tenant.

macyard · 21-01-2015 3:56pm

Graces7 wrote: »

Whoa! This is a temporary arrangement only. Like having a friend to stay. Not a permanent new tenant.

It could take months to find another job and get back on his feet, it's nothing like having a friend stay over one weekend

21-01-2015 4:41pm

seamus wrote: »

Yes, but you do it because you have an obligation both legally and under the agreement that you signed and you're a decent human being who honours their contracts.

I wouldn't consider keeping quiet in the op's situation as meaning I'm not a decent human being tbh, its trivial and would be much easier to keep quiet so I would.

Btw I defend LL regularly here and often comment that tenants have too many rights in a lot of situations, situations like the above wouldn't even be a dilemma for me, saying something wouldn't even enter the equation. I know many wont agree and I'm not advising the op to do this I'm just saying that how I would handle it.

Mrs OBumble · 21-01-2015 5:13pm

Viviana Shrilling Drizzle wrote: »

What do you mean by separate means of escape? Does it not have a window?

Nope. It has a skylight in the ceiling, but a person couldn't get to. And it's heritage building so they couldn't put a window in.

21-01-2015 5:41pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Nope. It has a skylight in the ceiling, but a person couldn't get to. And it's heritage building so they couldn't put a window in.

Most older buildings would have room or structural attributes that wouldn't meet modern fire safety regs though so it shouldn't matter, well it doesn't matter if you are living in your own property anyway maybe its different for renting.

Having seen the regs for new buildings with a friend building a house at the moment the attic conversion we did in my home place would fail on multiple counts if it was modern but as far as I know its fine once it predates the rules.

cerastes · 22-01-2015 2:20am

What if the landlord has specified non smokers and the son is, and the mother is a non smoker, invariably, no matter how much someone says they wont, at some stage most smokers are going to have a cig inside.

Just an example of how this might make the landlord unhappy other than not in forming them of another person living at the property not on the lease.

As the OP has stated the rent is below market rate, what if the Landlord just wants in effect a caretaker tenant in who will not increase wear massively and has decided on an older person (woman in this case) suits the bill, hence the lower than market rate rent.
Not informing the landlord might piss them off if they have given a reduced rate on that basis, they might not be able to change it but the tenant would have to rectify the situation, no matter how temporary getting another job may seem, you cant count on any specific time frame to know it will be resolved, could be indefinite.

Id be informing the landlord but not be suprised if they came back and wanted to renegotiate the rent as the tenant is renegotiating the terms.

Del2005 · 23-01-2015 4:41am

cerastes wrote: »

What if the landlord has specified non smokers and the son is, and the mother is a non smoker, invariably, no matter how much someone says they wont, at some stage most smokers are going to have a cig inside.

Just an example of how this might make the landlord unhappy other than not in forming them of another person living at the property not on the lease.

TBF any person entering the apartment could smoke indoors, or more usually on the balcony/back/front door with the smoke blowing back inside.

If the OPs brother was to injure himself in the apartment who would he sue? If it turns out he's living there temporarily there may be complications making a claim if not registered and insurance companies are fighting claims.

cruizer101 · 23-01-2015 3:30pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Where things can get tricky is if the LL doesn't want the person living there, and refuses permission.

Are they allowed refuse I thought they just had to inform like what seamus said above

16.—In addition to the obligations arising by or under any other enactment, a tenant of a dwelling shall—
...
(n) notify in writing the landlord of the identity of each person (other than a multiple tenant) who, for the time being, resides ordinarily in the dwelling.

percy212 · 23-01-2015 3:47pm

I would hate to rent from you. Why don't you just install cameras inside the place to keep an eye on the tenant vermin.

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

That depends on the LL. I check my place personally about every two months (with all the required notice, at a convenient time) seeing as I don't necessarily trust tenants to tell me in a timely manner that there is a damp patch growing, or the gutter is leaking and dripping inside the wall, or that there is a problem which fs fixed immediately would be preferable for all. It would be pretty obvious if there is someone living (rather than just a guest staying) in the spare room....unless they moved everything out every few weeks, which is an awful lot of effort just to keep something from the LL

rawn · 23-01-2015 3:53pm

OP here, thanks for all of the info guys, I discussed it again with my mother and she will speak to the landlady when she calls around next for bills, she will ask her if it's ok rather than inform her that she's doing it. My brother still has another month on his own lease so plenty of time to sort it out. If the landlady wants to up the rent she can't for another 11 months, so my mam is a little afraid that the LL will think she purposely waited til straight after the rent review before bringing it up but that's just not the case. But as I said, their relationship is very good so hopefully she will be ok with it, seeing as it is not a permanent situation (although the timeline is of course vague)

macyard · 23-01-2015 3:54pm

percy212 wrote: »

I would hate to rent from you. Why don't you just install cameras inside the place to keep an eye on the tenant vermin.

A check to make sure the house is ok from damp/taken care of and check gutters every two months with notice before hand is not excessive

percy212 · 23-01-2015 3:56pm

I would find it excessive and inconvenient, and impeding on my quiet enjoyment of my abode.

macyard wrote: »

A check to make sure the house is ok from damp/taken care of and check gutters every two months with notice before hand is not excessive

macyard · 23-01-2015 4:04pm

percy212 wrote: »

I would find it excessive and inconvenient, and impeding on my quiet enjoyment of my abode.

Mine does it every 3 months it's a quarterly check, while doing it he will clean the gutters if needed. We keep the place nice so he is here for 5 minutes most times, around the end of Sept check he fills the oil tank with 200l and bleeds the boiler if it got air locked and gives us a hamper for Xmas.

It's never an inconvenience and gives us a weeks notice

percy212 · 24-01-2015 3:36pm

That is great service. I would be happy if mine came quarterly to do repairs. As it is I have to chase and chase for serious things like leaky plumbing.

cerastes · 24-01-2015 3:44pm

Del2005 wrote: »

TBF any person entering the apartment could smoke indoors, or more usually on the balcony/back/front door with the smoke blowing back inside.

If the OPs brother was to injure himself in the apartment who would he sue? If it turns out he's living there temporarily there may be complications making a claim if not registered and insurance companies are fighting claims.

Unless the landlord has advertised for non smokers and has expressly stated they dont want any smoking in the house, Ive come across plenty of non smokers that either live in their own homes or with others and dont smoke indoors, because of either children, a partner/others doesnt want it or because it adheres to every place. Im not opposed to smokers, but it does add to the cleaning up and a place definitely needs to be repainted sooner when smokers have lived in a place.

percy212 wrote: »

I would hate to rent from you. Why don't you just install cameras inside the place to keep an eye on the tenant vermin.

Every month up till 6 months, thats a definite, probably for at least the first year, maybe every two months after that.

macyard wrote: »

A check to make sure the house is ok from damp/taken care of and check gutters every two months with notice before hand is not excessive

This, stops things getting out of hand, an example is mould, that no one ever thought might be a problem, things many tenants dont seem to understand how they occur (usually through how someone lives).

percy212 wrote: »

I would find it excessive and inconvenient, and impeding on my quiet enjoyment of my abode.

You find it excessive and inconvenient for this to happen once a month?

percy212 wrote: »

That is great service. I would be happy if mine came quarterly to do repairs. As it is I have to chase and chase for serious things like leaky plumbing.

eh? this is in contrast to your previous posts?

percy212 · 24-01-2015 3:48pm

Why do you care? With a weeks notice I would find it acceptable to inspect quarterly. Anything else would be overbearing.

Victor · 24-01-2015 3:58pm

percy212 wrote: »

tenant vermin.

Let's avoid comments like this.

Moderator

Grandpa Hassan · 24-01-2015 4:00pm

percy212 wrote: »

I would hate to rent from you. Why don't you just install cameras inside the place to keep an eye on the tenant vermin.

Geez. How much do you hate landlords!!!?

Realistically I am probably in Ireland once a quarter. Quarterly is a perfectly acceptable inspection period. And I've fixed things that the tenant has just been leaving. Which is good for everyone

cerastes · 24-01-2015 4:02pm

percy212 wrote: »

Why do you care? With a weeks notice I would find it acceptable to inspect quarterly. Anything else would be overbearing.

I dont think there is any specific requirement on the notice period, would you decline 48 hours if it wasn't inconvenient to you and that suited the landlord?

What if there was something urgent you needed the landlord to attend to? would you wait a week? or insist on an urgent response?

I dont see how a monthly check is an imposition, landlord probably doesnt want to have to do it, but problems noticed, from being checked in time can usually be fixed easier, quicker and cheaper. Generally tenants dont pay heed to the kind of things that a landlord may be quick in spotting from previous experience, that or they may get out of hand. Its the opposite approach to tenants complaining they cant get a hold of a landlord to fix problems.
If I couldnt gain access and a problem developed at least one that could be seen by me, then I would put the blame on and charge the tenant even if they didnt cause it, if they didnt notice a problem themselves where I would have or just left it unreported, where it could have been dealt with easier earlier on. If that costs me, Im passing that on.

having a regular inspection is a good thing for a tenant, because they are off the hook for any developing problems or almost any responsibility to even report them.

It just seems like the view here that people will oppose you no matter what you request or say.

rawn · 01-02-2015 3:40pm

OP here, just an update if anyone is interested. The landlady visited yesterday to collect bill money and my mam asked her would it be ok if my brother stayed with her for a few months until he gets a job. She was really cool about it, said that it was no problem. She did however say that if he finds work and for some reason ends up staying with my mam long-term she will up the rent a bit, since they could afford it then, cos she is paying well below market rate (2 bed apartment by a train station in Blanchardstown for €850, identical apartment next door was recently advertised for €1150!). Mostly I think she was just happy to be informed. Thanks everyone for the advice!

Graces7 · 02-02-2015 7:15am

cerastes wrote: »

I dont think there is any specific requirement on the notice period, would you decline 48 hours if it wasn't inconvenient to you and that suited the landlord?

What if there was something urgent you needed the landlord to attend to? would you wait a week? or insist on an urgent response?

I dont see how a monthly check is an imposition, landlord probably doesnt want to have to do it, but problems noticed, from being checked in time can usually be fixed easier, quicker and cheaper. Generally tenants dont pay heed to the kind of things that a landlord may be quick in spotting from previous experience, that or they may get out of hand. Its the opposite approach to tenants complaining they cant get a hold of a landlord to fix problems.
If I couldnt gain access and a problem developed at least one that could be seen by me, then I would put the blame on and charge the tenant even if they didnt cause it, if they didnt notice a problem themselves where I would have or just left it unreported, where it could have been dealt with easier earlier on. If that costs me, Im passing that on.

having a regular inspection is a good thing for a tenant, because they are off the hook for any developing problems or almost any responsibility to even report them.

It just seems like the view here that people will oppose you no matter what you request or say.

Once a month is excessive and the two ideas are compatible. ie yes is a problem develops of course it needs fixing and as we live in the house we do notice. My current landlord has been in the house once in nearly three years and trusts me to instigate emergency repairs. He respects my privacy; the one time he was in the house was a medical emergency and he was making sure the local unreliable medical services arrived.

Question about number of occupants allowed in a two-bed apartment

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