IE to lease UK fleet?

IE 222 · 27-01-2019 8:26pm

Rashers72 wrote: »

So how does that fit into the details announced by IE CEO last week? He said leasing unlikely whereas this tender says either leasing or purchase. Am I missing something?

I presume the comments were made on the basis of known from observing whats available in the UK. No harm in putting the tender out. It may bring something to the table that was over looked or a workable option from elsewhere.

devnull · 27-01-2019 9:15pm

Good luck in getting something that can be assured as being available by February 2020, although it might be a tactic to bounce the ROSCOS into firm contractual agreement on dates or get nothing to make them ensure that they leave from the UK as soon as possible, even if the UK operators might need them due to delays.

ROSCOS may well think that annoying a few UK customers for a few month to make sure they get returns on their stock for the next 6-7 years is worth it rather than keeping their UK customers happy for a few months and then having a bunch of assets that are sat idle for a long period.

Jamie2k9 · 27-01-2019 9:26pm

devnull wrote: »

Good luck in getting something that can be assured as being available by February 2020, although it might be a tactic to bounce the ROSCOS into firm contractual agreement on dates or get nothing to make them ensure that they leave from the UK as soon as possible, even if the UK operators might need them due to delays.

ROSCOS may well think that annoying a few UK customers for a few month to make sure they get returns on their stock for the next 6-7 years is worth it rather than keeping their UK customers happy for a few months and then having a bunch of assets that are sat idle for a long period.

Or a case of look we (NTA) were asleep at the wheel and trying to be seen as doing something (even with no end result). IE are not blameless here either but NTA carry most of it.

They even delayed the ICR middle coach decision.

GM228 · 29-01-2019 6:52pm

Rashers72 wrote: »

So how does that fit into the details announced by IE CEO last week? He said leasing unlikely whereas this tender says either leasing or purchase. Am I missing something?

Note I stated in reply to that article that no decision has been made one way or the other.

The only difference now is up until recently the NTA/IE were looking at Q4 2019, the tender is now for Q1 2020. Previously the ROSCOs indicated Q4 2019 availability but since stated this is not realistic so 2020 may be more realistic.

All we can do now is see what if anything happens, should know by March.

Ireland trains · 29-01-2019 7:36pm

Hpoefully we get some trains as a year is not too long compared to 2-5years when the trains are full now.
Some artical today about irish rail getting more trains from late 2020, do they mean leasing or the 22k
Which trains are more likley to come, 170 or 185

GM228 · 30-01-2019 11:33am

Ireland trains wrote: »

Hpoefully we get some trains as a year is not too long compared to 2-5years when the trains are full now.
Some artical today about irish rail getting more trains from late 2020, do they mean leasing or the 22k
Which trains are more likley to come, 170 or 185

Centre ICRs are expected early 2021.

Nothing concrete, but if the lease plan does go ahead it is expected to be the 185s (there are not enough 170s).

No tender was expected until the conclusion of the NTA/IEs market availability and procurement options analysis which they have done so with various ROSCOs so the actual issue of the tender is (hopefully) a good sign despite the ROSCOs slipping on their initial availability estimates.

loyatemu · 30-01-2019 11:47am

ROSCO?

dukesofhazzard1-a3a6bb94493438118784c9669ee8326b45b5e408.jpg?w=500&ssl=1

L1011 · 30-01-2019 11:55am

ROlling Stock COmpany, the companies who bought the BR rolling stock and have bought new stuff since; and a few new entrants over time

Infini · 30-01-2019 1:28pm

Out of interst if theres nothing available in the UK what about stock from mainland Europe?

tabbey · 30-01-2019 1:29pm

Infini wrote: »

Out of interst if theres nothing available in the UK what about stock from mainland Europe?

Mainland rolling stock is much larger than ours, it would not fit our tunnels etc.

Jamie2k9 · 30-01-2019 1:30pm

Infini wrote: »

Out of interst if theres nothing available in the UK what about stock from mainland Europe?

Gauge issues would be a problem and limit European stock but not impossible.

Captain Chaos · 30-01-2019 3:41pm

All this is why the MK3s should have been kept in storage. They should not have been allowed to scrap all of them. Suppose wouldn't help seeing as IE have removed alot of run around loops at stations since.

Hotblack Desiato · 30-01-2019 3:54pm

Infini wrote: »

Out of interst if theres nothing available in the UK what about stock from mainland Europe?

You mean, left hand drive? :pac:

EdgeCase · 30-01-2019 3:56pm

This is the downside to having a set of standards that are unique to a small, isolated market. We're not able to react to spikes in demand.

If a continental railway operator had a similar problem, they could lease temporarily without major issues like gauge adjustments.

Effectively we've got a rapid economic upturn and we have to wait for trains to be tendered and built to spec.

GM228 · 30-01-2019 3:56pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

You mean, left hand drive? :pac:

We already have left hand drive trains

end of the road · 30-01-2019 4:01pm

Captain Chaos wrote: »

All this is why the MK3s should have been kept in storage. They should not have been allowed to scrap all of them. Suppose wouldn't help seeing as IE have removed alot of run around loops at stations since.

top and tail or a pilot loco at the terminus. of course neither of those or run around loops would be an issue with the pushpull sets.
we were short of stock even during the recession, in fact we were massively short long before that once service increases happened along with the withdrawel of the cravens and life expired mk2d with nothing to replace them until later. our issues with stock have been going on since the mid 2000s really.

goingnowhere · 30-01-2019 9:25pm

The 26, 27 and 2800 were all added for only minor loss
First 29k batch of 80 killed the 2.5 sets of Mk2abc's, net gain
Second 29k batch of 36 killed the Cravens, no change

Cravens were still around after most the Mk4's had entered service, then MK2d's started to go

Mk4 order was the same size as the Mk2d fleet but the Mk4 has more seats per coach

Total 22k's 234 which replaced the MK3 fleet of 134 (but more seats as no generator vans)

So net fleet is up approx. 170 1996 vs 2016, DART fleet is 64 up, is ~234 up

The bulk of that comes from the ICR order and the 29k order

Ireland trains · 06-02-2019 10:31pm

Any update on the leasing or train order

Losty Dublin · 07-02-2019 2:56am

Ireland trains wrote: »

Any update on the leasing or train order

BR are sending over a few Deltic's, Mark 1's and some Pacers for the weekend after next. The RPSI are chipping in with the Heritage Set and 186 while Downpatrick will send down RB2 and 6111 and a G Class, all for the Dunboyne Branch shuttle.

L1011 · 07-02-2019 10:37am

I did semi seriously suggest using the RPSI fleets a while ago!

GM228 · 07-02-2019 10:55am

Ireland trains wrote: »

Any update on the leasing or train order

Not until late March at least.

Losty Dublin · 07-02-2019 1:04pm

L1011 wrote: »

I did semi seriously suggest using the RPSI fleets a while ago!

Joking aside, the RPSI could do so on paper but in reality it's a non runner. Truth be known, while they are grand for the odd RPSI trip the Cravens are unfit for daily traffic. In their final days a traveling fitter and electrician had to travel on board the serious faults were that common. The Northern Mark 2 set is in worse shape although it looks fairly good. The Heritage set is in a jock and needs a lot of work to even ready it for occasional traffic.

Your other major issue is that the RPSI sets are now RPSI owned and come with RPSI SMI briefs. While such stock carried a grandfather right in CIE days's this has long gone so they must run as per the society's Railway Operator Licence. Currently this is based on an agreed safety case that a RPSI member volunteer with an appropriate PTS and fleet safety brief staffs each door at stations to prevent against doors opens in traffic or falls when boarding and alighting.

Lastly, loco's and staff would be required to haul these fleets and to lift shunt the stock at terminal's. This would put extra stress on staffing given the shortage of drivers, passenger train guards trained in Vacuum Brake stock and shunters.

andrewfaulk · 07-02-2019 7:48pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Joking aside, the RPSI could do so on paper but in reality it's a non runner. Truth be known, while they are grand for the odd RPSI trip the Cravens are unfit for daily traffic. In their final days a traveling fitter and electrician had to travel on board the serious faults were that common. The Northern Mark 2 set is in worse shape although it looks fairly good. The Heritage set is in a jock and needs a lot of work to even ready it for occasional traffic.

Your other major issue is that the RPSI sets are now RPSI owned and come with RPSI SMI briefs. While such stock carried a grandfather right in CIE days's this has long gone so they must run as per the society's Railway Operator Licence. Currently this is based on an agreed safety case that a RPSI member volunteer with an appropriate PTS and fleet safety brief staffs each door at stations to prevent against doors opens in traffic or falls when boarding and alighting.

Lastly, loco's and staff would be required to haul these fleets and to lift shunt the stock at terminal's. This would put extra stress on staffing given the shortage of drivers, passenger train guards trained in Vacuum Brake stock and shunters.

What about the Gatwick’s, air braked and there’s a suitable DBSO available.. an overhaul would do them for 2-3 years until iE have new stock commissioned.. Could be a revenue earner for the RPSI/DCDR..

goingnowhere · 07-02-2019 8:03pm

In an extreme case the Cravens could do but really only as once off capacity for major events.

The limit of 75mph and the lack of central door locking is a real problem, locomotives and drivers rarely a problem but IE has few if any train guards and the few left are tied up with the Belmond operation

IE are looking for more coaches than the entire original Cravens fleet..

Gatwicks are not fit to run and would need serious money to get fixed up at this stage
RPSI Mk2's do have central locking but are a strange no two coaches the same
The Heritage set is a no go, 60mph, banned from large chunks of the network
Then there is 3 coach Mk3 push pull rusting away in Moyasta, too far gone by now and the standard class coach is not push pull fitted

Losty Dublin · 07-02-2019 8:07pm

andrewfaulk wrote: »

What about the Gatwick’s, air braked and there’s a suitable DBSO available.. an overhaul would do them for 2-3 years until iE have new stock commissioned.. Could be a revenue earner for the RPSI/DCDR..

They're crocked. For a return to traffic they will need almost as much work as the 2700 Class needed, and as with the RPSI Operational Licence they need to be staffed as per their other stock. It's hard enough for the society to staff one off trains, never mind a regular intense daily service. Nice thought, mind.

andrewfaulk · 07-02-2019 8:14pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

They're crocked. For a return to traffic they will need almost as much work as the 2700 Class needed, and as with the RPSI Operational Licence they need to be staffed as per their other stock. It's hard enough for the society to staff one off trains, never mind a regular intense daily service. Nice thought, mind.

But a dry lease to IE so crewing is not an issue.. And IE could refurb the coaches as way of payment for the first years lease say..

Del.Monte · 07-02-2019 8:32pm

^^^ Too much thinking outside the box.

Losty Dublin · 07-02-2019 8:37pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

^^^ Too much thinking outside the box.

The Hornby Box yeah :pac:

Losty Dublin · 07-02-2019 8:44pm

andrewfaulk wrote: »

But a dry lease to IE so crewing is not an issue.. And IE could refurb the coaches as way of payment for the first years lease say..

Maybe you should write to Whitehead and suggest they tender for it. Given that they can barely hang onto their own carriage officers up there and are happy to sub out their own fleet repairs rather than fix their own stock and that Irish Rail need an out of box solution of about 20 sets, it's a total non runner.

andrewfaulk · 07-02-2019 9:01pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The Hornby Box yeah :pac:

Ironic since I normally work in 1:1 scale..

Maybe that is the problem, I think out of the box without thinking of the reality of how disfunctional the rail industry/enthusiasts in this country are..

Ireland trains · 07-02-2019 10:36pm

I hope irish rail aquire the 185s as they look like nice trains.
I assume priority service enhancments would be
Maynooth
M3Parkway
Portlaiose/kildare
Balbriggan/drogheda

highdef · 08-02-2019 9:44pm

The 185's do look nice. They could be the narrowest stock on Irish rails in many years though. As they would be leased rather than bought, would the 2+1 seating in the first class section (plus extra legroom) be retained, I wonder?

Ireland trains · 08-02-2019 10:26pm

I would assume they qould remove first class and maby get green goodness livery and operate in 8 car formation

end of the road · 08-02-2019 10:49pm

Ireland trains wrote: »

I would assume they qould remove first class and maby get green goodness livery and operate in 8 car formation

i'd imagine they will most likely remain as 3 car and operate as 6 car formations. i'd also imagine that if the lease isn't very long then unless they are due a paint anyway that they may not be reliveried but rather vinyled. time will tell i guess.

highdef · 08-02-2019 11:01pm

Ireland trains wrote: »

I would assume they qould remove first class and maby get green goodness livery and operate in 8 car formation

I should have rephrased - I wonder if they will keep the 2+1 seating with longer legroom after they declassify the 1st class section?

Ireland trains · 08-02-2019 11:25pm

I doubt they will keep 2+1 as these are commuter services
Although it may be cheaper to just leave it the way it is

Charles Babbage · 08-02-2019 11:28pm

highdef wrote: »

The 185's do look nice. They could be the narrowest stock on Irish rails in many years though. As they would be leased rather than bought, would the 2+1 seating in the first class section (plus extra legroom) be retained, I wonder?

Why British trains? Would those from another European country not have a more generous loading gauge?

highdef · 08-02-2019 11:39pm

Ireland trains wrote: »

I doubt they will keep 2+1 as these are commuter services
Although it may be cheaper to just leave it the way it is

That's what I was thinking.

highdef · 08-02-2019 11:43pm

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Why British trains? Would those from another European country not have a more generous loading gauge?

Would be too generous for Ireland. Despite our broad gauge tracks, our loading gauge is rather restrictive in comparison. Not as bad as the UK but we could theoretically have rolling stock a good 2 - 3 feet wider, if we were to rebuild all of the infrastructure......obviously that will NEVER happen!

GM228 · 09-02-2019 2:23pm

Ireland trains wrote: »

I would assume they qould remove first class and maby get green goodness livery and operate in 8 car formation

end of the road wrote: »

i'd imagine they will most likely remain as 3 car and operate as 6 car formations. i'd also imagine that if the lease isn't very long then unless they are due a paint anyway that they may not be reliveried but rather vinyled. time will tell i guess.

They will be 3 and 6 cars. There current livery is a vinyl also, what livery would be applied is unknown.

GM228 · 09-02-2019 2:25pm

highdef wrote: »

The 185's do look nice. They could be the narrowest stock on Irish rails in many years though. As they would be leased rather than bought, would the 2+1 seating in the first class section (plus extra legroom) be retained, I wonder?

Various mods were discussed, bur seat reconfiguration was not discussed with Eversholt.

Ireland trains · 09-02-2019 4:50pm

The current interior looks nice so i hope they keep it the same
GM228, do you work for irish rail
If they purchase the trains then id say they may remove 2+1 seating at some point.
How much of the train is 2+1 seating at the moment

highdef · 09-02-2019 5:42pm

Ireland trains wrote: »

The current interior looks nice so i hope they keep it the same
GM228, do you work for irish rail
If they purchase the trains then id say they may remove 2+1 seating at some point.
How much of the train is 2+1 seating at the moment

Only a small section of one carriage. 15 seats, according to Wikipedia. Changing to 2 + 2 would probably result in only 5 extra seats.

Del.Monte · 09-02-2019 6:04pm

Look nicer than the ICRs that are already in service.

Ireland trains · 09-02-2019 7:50pm

The refurbished first class looks very nice on the TPE 185s
I cant attach a picture but they are white

highdef · 09-02-2019 9:03pm

Ireland trains wrote: »

The refurbished first class looks very nice on the TPE 185s
I cant attach a picture but they are white

Here ya go:

Ireland trains · 09-02-2019 9:22pm

If we get these trains id rather them on an intercity service than an icr

Ireland trains · 09-02-2019 9:22pm

If we get these trains id rather them on an intercity service than an icr

Ireland trains · 09-02-2019 9:22pm

If we get these trains id rather them on an intercity service than an icr

tabbey · 09-02-2019 10:31pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Look nicer than the ICRs that are already in service.

That would not be difficult.

IE to lease UK fleet?

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