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IE to lease UK fleet?

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    #32
    Ireland trains
    Registered Users Posts: 372 ✭✭Ireland trains


    My modern railways magazine has not yet arrrived but i heard there is an piece saying IÉ will be ordering 41 centre 22k class coaches.
    If this happens what is the likley new formation.
    Will some 3 cars be extended to 4 car and some 4 cars to 5 cars.


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    #33
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Call me a cynic but I am not convinced leasing a fleet will ever happen particularly given the relatively short period they are required for. They will need to bite the bullet and get 2700s going in Limerick short term.

    Agreed can't see it happening myself considering the work it would take to re-gauge them.


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    #34
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Agreed can't see it happening myself considering the work it would take to re-gauge them.

    There is very little involved in re-gauging, depending on their design it is either a bogie swap or just wheelset swaps.

    Whilst there is a substantial cost involved the actual swap out can be done in a day.


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    #35
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Ireland trains wrote: »
    My modern railways magazine has not yet arrrived but i heard there is an piece saying IÉ will be ordering 41 centre 22k class coaches.
    If this happens what is the likley new formation.
    Will some 3 cars be extended to 4 car and some 4 cars to 5 cars.

    Formations not confirmed yet, although it is expected there will be 6 car sets once again and more 5 car sets.

    See this thread:

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057679208


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    #36
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    GM228 wrote: »
    There is very little involved in re-gauging, depending on their design it is either a bogie swap or just wheelset swaps.

    Whilst there is a substantial cost involved the actual swap out can be done in a day.

    The 185s are maintained by Siemens directly in the UK I believe and you would imagine that they would be able to do all the work if needed to get them over here. Although saying that the facilities may well be owned by the operators, but the fact there are already Siemens engineers in place maintaining the trains might help with getting any work done.

    The 170s in most fleets tend to be maintained in house by the operators, so might be more difficult to get them done, since the operators are not going to be doing the work for Irish Rail, so they'd most likely have to contact Bombardier out to do that and probably go up to Derby first to have the work carried out.

    I'd be curious if Irish Rail contact the maintenance out to the manufacturer for the lease period if they do come, would be a sensible idea if they are regauging them, although not sure how well that would go down with the unions since they may see contracting it out as a bad thing, even though it would be the best thing to do IMO.


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    #37
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    devnull wrote: »
    The 185s are maintained by Siemens directly in the UK I believe and you would imagine that they would be able to do all the work if needed to get them over here. Although saying that the facilities may well be owned by the operators, but the fact there are already Siemens engineers in place maintaining the trains might help with getting any work done.

    The 170s in most fleets tend to be maintained in house by the operators, so might be more difficult to get them done, since the operators are not going to be doing the work for Irish Rail, so they'd most likely have to contact Bombardier out to do that and probably go up to Derby first to have the work carried out.

    I'd be curious if Irish Rail contact the maintenance out to the manufacturer for the lease period if they do come, would be a sensible idea if they are regauging them, although not sure how well that would go down with the unions since they may see contracting it out as a bad thing, even though it would be the best thing to do IMO.

    It would not be as simple as just getting Siemens to do the re-gauge work, it would need to be tendered out by the lease company.

    And unless there is a maintenance agreement as part of the lease IE would also have to tender maintenance if they chose to go down that route, my understanding is there are no plans to outsource general maintenance (though a lease could change that). IE already contract out certain heavy maintenance functions.


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    #38
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    GM228 wrote: »
    It would not be as simple as just getting Siemens to do the re-gauge work, it would need to be tendered out by the lease company.

    And unless there is a maintenance agreement as part of the lease IE would also have to tender maintenance if they chose to go down that route, my understanding is there are no plans to outsource general maintenance (though a lease could change that). IE already contract out certain heavy maintenance functions.

    I guessed it wouldn't be - I was thinking in an ideal world, of what would produce the best outcome in terms of reliability and performance of the trains, since most people I speak to in the UK are the belief that the fact Siemens tended to prefer to maintain stock that they supply to operators as being one of the key reasons that they are top of the reliability tables.

    I would understand why Irish Rail would want to keep the maintenance in-house, but at the same time, you've got a fleet of ultra reliable trains who have been maintained by their manufacturer for the last 10 years and if they come this way, you're going to have to train up a whole bunch of engineers, who have never seen the units before and my fear would be that reliability would suffer.


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    #39
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,672 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Think Siemens will send a team to be based in Dublin for a period of time to train/oversee etc maintenance process just like Hyundai Rotem had a team here for 5-6 years.


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    #40
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Think Siemens will send a team to be based in Dublin for a period of time to train/oversee etc maintenance process just like Hyundai Rotem had a team here for 5-6 years.

    You'd like to think so - one of the key reasons that the Desiro UK fleets are so reliable historically is that they have all been on Full Service contracts from Siemens directly.


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    #41
    Ireland trains
    Registered Users Posts: 372 ✭✭Ireland trains


    So if these trains come to ireland in 2020 what would be the priority capacity/service increase routes
    Would it likley be:
    1 Maynooth, M3 Parkway, Drogheda
    2 PPT, kildare/portlaiose
    3 longer distance commuter: newry /longford/arklow/athlone/thurles

    4 Intercity:
    Hourly enterprise
    More frequent rosslare (7pd)
    More galway (nearly hourly)

    Just curious
    Wouldn't mind hearing others ideas.

    Also is it just me or should there be some PPT services to portlaiose to connect to cork train
    Finally, why do irish rail have empty transfers ( eg Heuston-GCD, Bray-connolly).
    Does it not make more sense to allow passengers onboard because its not going to cost Irish rail anyhing


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    #42
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,991 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Ireland trains wrote: »
    So if these trains come to ireland in 2020 what would be the priority capacity/service increase routes
    Would it likley be:
    1 Maynooth, M3 Parkway, Drogheda
    2 PPT, kildare/portlaiose
    3 longer distance commuter: newry /longford/arklow/athlone/thurles

    4 Intercity:
    Hourly enterprise
    More frequent rosslare (7pd)
    More galway (nearly hourly)

    Just curious
    Wouldn't mind hearing others ideas.

    Also is it just me or should there be some PPT services to portlaiose to connect to cork train
    Finally, why do irish rail have empty transfers ( eg Heuston-GCD, Bray-connolly).
    Does it not make more sense to allow passengers onboard because its not going to cost Irish rail anyhing


    nothing has been confirmed ultimately. all though i wouldn't be surprised if they end up being concentrated on 1 side of the rail system. possibly the connolly side in exchange for all 22k going to heuston. can't see hourly belfast or galway or any increases on the long distance routes.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #43
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    The proposal is that any stock to be leased is to bolster commuter services and not for IC work.

    Kildare, Maynooth and Northern Commuter lines have been mentioned.


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    #44
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,991 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    GM228 wrote: »
    The proposal is that any stock to be leased is to bolster commuter services and not for IC work.

    Kildare, Maynooth and Northern Commuter lines have been mentioned.

    do you know how many units are expected to be leased if the lease goes ahead, or is it a case of taking what is availible as long as the price is reasonable?

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #45
    Ireland trains
    Registered Users Posts: 372 ✭✭Ireland trains


    Will irish rail ever have commuter services to arklow/wicklow/gorey.
    Hope the '170' trains come as they seem fairly good.
    Would the leased stock get the new green 'goodness' commuter livery


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    #46
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,991 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Ireland trains wrote: »
    Will irish rail ever have commuter services to arklow/wicklow/gorey.
    Hope the '170' trains come as they seem fairly good.
    Would the leased stock get the new green 'goodness' commuter livery



    they already do, or at least they did have, a couple of commuters to and from gorey along with the others from rosslare europort. i can't see any service increases happening to anywhere tbh, rather just capacity increases on the dublin suburban.
    as for livery, who knows. i suspect they may just be vinyled rather then given a full repaint unless they are going to be here for a sufficient time to make repainting jobs worth it. but your guess is as good as mine.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #47
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Ireland trains wrote: »
    Will irish rail ever have commuter services to arklow/wicklow/gorey.
    Hope the '170' trains come as they seem fairly good.
    Would the leased stock get the new green 'goodness' commuter livery

    Would prefer the 185s myself as they have higher spec recently refurbished interiors, are newer, more reliable and all of the same specification and all three cars and have spent their whole life maintained by the manufacturer.

    The 170s will be a mix of two and three cars and to various interiors and internal configurations and have been maintained by various franchises at various times and witl be around half a dozen years older


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    #48
    Ireland trains
    Registered Users Posts: 372 ✭✭Ireland trains


    Tbh I dont care which trains whey pic at this point as long as the acually come


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    #49
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,217 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    devnull wrote: »
    I guessed it wouldn't be - I was thinking in an ideal world, of what would produce the best outcome in terms of reliability and performance of the trains, since most people I speak to in the UK are the belief that the fact Siemens tended to prefer to maintain stock that they supply to operators as being one of the key reasons that they are top of the reliability tables.

    I would understand why Irish Rail would want to keep the maintenance in-house, but at the same time, you've got a fleet of ultra reliable trains who have been maintained by their manufacturer for the last 10 years and if they come this way, you're going to have to train up a whole bunch of engineers, who have never seen the units before and my fear would be that reliability would suffer.

    Eversholt, probably the most capable U.K. Rosco, would continue management of the maintenance.


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    #50
    Drifter50
    Registered Users Posts: 617 ✭✭✭Drifter50


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Call me a cynic but I am not convinced leasing a fleet will ever happen particularly given the relatively short period they are required for. They will need to bite the bullet and get 2700s going in Limerick short term.

    I would agree with that Jamie, can`t see huge expense being sanctioned especially short term when we have a bunch of 2700 units sitting in Limerick gathering dust.

    The 2700 project has stop started a couple of times now, they just need to get on with it


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    #51
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Marcusm wrote: »
    Eversholt, probably the most capable U.K. Rosco, would continue management of the maintenance.

    That is not for certain and depends on weather IE take a dry or wet lease option.


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    #52
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Drifter50 wrote: »
    I would agree with that Jamie, can`t see huge expense being sanctioned especially short term when we have a bunch of 2700 units sitting in Limerick gathering dust.

    The 2700 project has stop started a couple of times now, they just need to get on with it

    There are no 2700s in Limerick, that aside the project has only started (and subsequently shelved) once.

    Also the "huge expense" would likely be less than the 2700 project and provide better value for money, any expense in conversion will be borne by the ROSCO, not IE or the NTA.


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    #53
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    GM228 wrote: »
    The proposal is that any stock to be leased is to bolster commuter services and not for IC work.

    Kildare, Maynooth and Northern Commuter lines have been mentioned.

    I have been hearing the opposite from several sources. All 22k units for Heuston trains and UK units for Sligo/Rosslare trains and some of the commuter services out of Connolly. Units to be based at Drogheda.

    Apparently to make training and maintenance simpler and also because they are already AWS/TPWS fitted for working into NI if needed.

    16x 185s should be available if TPE can get its new stock into service on time. The 170s are likely to be snapped up by UK operators.


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    #54
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    I have been hearing the opposite from several sources. All 22k units for Heuston trains and UK units for Sligo/Rosslare trains and some of the commuter services out of Connolly. Units to be based at Drogheda.

    Apparently to make training and maintenance simpler and also because they are already AWS/TPWS fitted for working into NI if needed.

    16x 185s should be available if TPE can get its new stock into service on time. The 170s are likely to be snapped up by UK operators.

    That is not true.

    Also note Rosslare and Sligo train lengths would be restricted in size if that were to happen as the 185s are the same length as the ICRs, in fact I heard the ICR centre car order will see 5 car ICRs on the Rosslare in future.

    There are no plans to shift the ICRs to Heuston only with the exception of potentially 7 cars being released from Drogheda.


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    #55
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    GM228 wrote: »
    That is not true.

    Also note Rosslare and Sligo train lengths would be restricted in size if that were to happen. There are no plans to shift the ICRs to Heuston only with the exception of potentially 7 cars being released from Drogheda.

    Well Several IR staff have told me this. I was also told to expect more 29000 on the Sligo trains soon (travel there on a regular basis).

    While train lengths might be shorter, there potentially would be more trains. The evening Sligo train would be full of people going to Sligo and not commuters going to Maynooth or Longford as they would be on earlier trains.


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    #56
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    Well Several IR staff have told me this. I was also told to expect more 29000 on the Sligo trains soon (travel there on a regular basis).

    While train lengths might be shorter, there potentially would be more trains. The evening Sligo train would be full of people going to Sligo and not commuters going to Maynooth or Longford as they would be on earlier trains.

    The 29000 fleet is stretched to the limit and their commuter runs are supplemented by the ICRs.

    They are not going onto the Sligo line. Very very few IE staff are privy to the plans, if they are saying this it is pure speculation.


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    #57
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    GM228 wrote: »
    The 29000 fleet is stretched to the limit and their commuter runs are supplemented by the ICRs.

    They are not going onto the Sligo line. Very very few IE staff are privy to the plans, if they are saying this it is pure speculation.

    Depends who you know in IE!! Time will tell.


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    #58
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    Depends who you know in IE!! Time will tell.

    I don't think you know the right people though.


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    #59
    Ireland trains
    Registered Users Posts: 372 ✭✭Ireland trains


    GM228
    do you have any idea when/if IÉ will announce their leasing plans.
    Or order the 41 ICR centre cars or order the bi-modes


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    #60
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    GM228 wrote: »
    I don't think you know the right people though.

    I am not going to turn this into a "who is the most senior member of IE management you know" competition.

    And the ones I know are not platform staff or drivers. Tad higher than that.


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    #61
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Ireland trains wrote: »
    GM228
    do you have any idea when/if IÉ will announce their leasing plans.
    Or order the 41 ICR centre cars or order the bi-modes

    Plan to approach the UK ROSCOs was approved by the NTA in November as was the centre car order and bi-mode fleet. I would imagine any definitive announcement on lease will be after Brexit as that may impact plans, it is still very much at scoping stage.

    Tender for bi-mode should issue Q1 2019 with contract award Q3/4 2019. ICR order does not require a tender and is expected to be signed Q1 2019.


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