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IE to lease UK fleet?

  • 28-12-2018 2:16am
    #1
    GM228
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭


    It's been mentioned in a few forums so best to have it's own at this stage as it is looking likely to happen.

    Due to the fallout of the 2700 project and despite the approval of 41 new ICR centre cars IE and the NTA have approached various companies (predominantly in the UK) for the lease of rolling stock from mid/late 2019 onwards and seem have narrowed down their discussions to Porterbrook for 170s or Eversholt for 185s.

    IE were looking for around 70 vehicles, Porterbrook have stated they can commit to 32 170s of various configurations and spec whilst Eversholt can commit to 66 185s which will all be of similar spec so I'm predicting it's going to be 185s.

    Porterbrook and Angel also offered other fleets, but the above two seem to be the short-list. Watch this space.


«13456

Comments

  • #2
    man98
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭man98


    How quickly could a set be shipped, fitted with Irish safety equipment, regauged, and drivers be found and then trained on these sets? I presume maintenance will take a while to set up as well? Surely they can't be aiming to have these ready in 2019?


  • #3
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Regauge a few Pacers sure they'll be gone by 2019 :D


  • #4
    GM228
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    man98 wrote: »
    How quickly could a set be shipped, fitted with Irish safety equipment, regauged, and drivers be found and then trained on these sets? I presume maintenance will take a while to set up as well? Surely they can't be aiming to have these ready in 2019?

    Once agreed, the leasing company will issue a tender for their re-gauge and fit out (most likely in the UK), this could take several months and would be the longest timeframe.

    Fit out and re-gauging could be done in a fairly quick timeframe (only two or three weeks has been mentioned + another week for painting etc). Then ship the first sets over, test them and train all the drivers and maintenance over several weeks. As these are a proven train testing would not be required to the standard currently required for new stock, they could realistically be in service only a few weeks after delivery once they receive CRR certification, which again should be more straightforward as they are a proven train.

    My understanding is they go off-lease in Q3 2019 so they most definitely could be in service by late 2019/early 2020.


  • #5
    GM228
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Regauge a few Pacers sure they'll be gone by 2019 :D

    Angel offered 158 class 142 vehicles and Porterbrook 56 class 144 vehicles.

    Most likely those fleets will be scrapped.


  • #6
    man98
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭man98


    GM228 wrote: »
    Once agreed, the leasing company will issue a tender for their re-gauge and fit out (most likely in the UK), this could take several months and would be the longest timeframe.

    Fit out and re-gauging could be done in a fairly quick timeframe (only two or three weeks has been mentioned + another week for painting etc). Then ship the first sets over, test them and train all the drivers and maintenance over several weeks. As these are a proven train testing would not be required to the standard currently required for new stock, they could realistically be in service only a few weeks after delivery once they receive CRR certification, which again should be more straightforward as they are a proven train.

    My understanding is they go off-lease in Q3 2019 so they most definitely could be in service by late 2019/early 2020.
    Ah ok that's rather interesting.
    Would you have any idea what they'd be used for? Would be interested to see if they could be run from the Portlaoise depot on suburban runs, and move many of the 22ks over to Connolly services, I would imagine faster commuter trains to Drogheda/ Dundalk would mean that the Enterprise could run considerably faster too. It would also mean more consistent 22ks running to Sligo and Rosslare, as well as potentially introducing a 2 hourly service to Rosslare Harbour, which is a pipe dream of mine - luckily introduced on the Sligo line this month.

    I presume they'd be a medium term solution to overcrowding? Is the longer term strategy to order hybrids/ electric trains to replace these, or to allow to live out their useful lives in Ireland?


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  • #7
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,686 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    GM228 wrote: »
    It's been mentioned in a few forums so best to have it's own at this stage as it is looking likely to happen.

    Due to the fallout of the 2700 project and despite the approval of 41 new ICR centre cars IE and the NTA have approached various companies (predominantly in the UK) for the lease of rolling stock from mid/late 2019 onwards and seem have narrowed down their discussions to Porterbrook for 170s or Eversholt for 185s.

    IE were looking for around 70 vehicles, Porterbrook have stated they can commit to 32 170s of various configurations and spec whilst Eversholt can commit to 66 185s which will all be of similar spec so I'm predicting it's going to be 185s.

    Porterbrook and Angel also offered other fleets, but the above two seem to be the short-list. Watch this space.

    Considering the fact that there is a lot of delays with new rolling stock being procured in the UK at the moment I wouldn't be so sure that the 170 or 185 fleets would become available on time even in the unlikely event that they would be able to secure contracts for such rolling stock.

    Whilst the new units coming into the UK will be electric stock or bi-mode, a fair bit of the UK stock due to be replaced cannot be used past 31st December 2019 and as such compliant diesel stock may well need to be kept on for a transitional period whilst the issues with the class 230/769 and the fairly big software problems on the Bombardier Aventra are worked out.

    However there is talk in the industry that the UK will have to defer the 1st January 2020 accessibility deadline otherwise there will have to be quite significant cutbacks in peak time services from January 2020 as there will not be enough accessibility compliant rolling stock to provide an adequate level of capacity over the network.

    The 185s would be excellent however - they're by far the most reliable modern Diesel unit in the UK, having won the Golden Spanner award fives times in the last 10 years including the last 3 years in a row, have recently had a substantial refurbishment and like all the Siemens Desiro range, have excellent build quality.



  • #8
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,206 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    185 are heavy gas guzzlers and share nothing in common with the existing fleet.

    170 share the same basic MTU engine and transmission as the ICR's which makes a huge difference in supply chain and training. Much lighter. Likely cheaper lease. We also know Bombardier offered the 170 to IE before but Rotem won out, so likely someone has done some homework on regauging


  • #9
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    GM228 wrote: »
    Angel offered 158 class 142 vehicles and Porterbrook 56 class 144 vehicles.

    Most likely those fleets will be scrapped.

    You do realise I was joking about the Pacers I think they would be the last trains we'd want to see on the Irish network anytime soon.


  • #10
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,686 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    goingnowhere wrote: »
    185 are heavy gas guzzlers and share nothing in common with the existing fleet.

    170 share the same basic MTU engine and transmission as the ICR's which makes a huge difference in supply chain and training. Much lighter. Likely cheaper lease. We also know Bombardier offered the 170 to IE before but Rotem won out, so likely someone has done some homework on regauging

    The 170s though are the most likely to have delayed availability on them, depending on where they are coming from, since some of the places where they are going to be freed up have delays on their incoming rolling stock and a batch of non PRM stock which has to be withdrawn, which means anything else is likely to have to fill the gap unless the UK defer the 2020 start date.

    Also you're going to have the obvious situation with the 170s that they're all going to be varying interior specification and refurbishment and also some are going to be two car and some are going to be three car. I agree that the 170s are lighter on fuel and will probably be cheaper to lease, but that is also reflected in the build quality as well, the Desiro build quality has always been better than the 170 Turbostar quality.


  • #11
    Marcusm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,430 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    goingnowhere wrote: »
    185 are heavy gas guzzlers and share nothing in common with the existing fleet.

    170 share the same basic MTU engine and transmission as the ICR's which makes a huge difference in supply chain and training. Much lighter. Likely cheaper lease. We also know Bombardier offered the 170 to IE before but Rotem won out, so likely someone has done some homework on regauging

    The 185s were soec’d For trans pennies routes - lots of steep climbs and hilly bits. When they have been retasked, I suspect that they can be modded to improve efficiency on what will be much flatter routes.


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  • #12
    GM228
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    devnull wrote: »
    Considering the fact that there is a lot of delays with new rolling stock being procured in the UK at the moment I wouldn't be so sure that the 170 or 185 fleets would become available on time even in the unlikely event that they would be able to secure contracts for such rolling stock.

    Commitments have apparently been given regarding availability, but yes they are questionable.


    devnull wrote: »
    Whilst the new units coming into the UK will be electric stock or bi-mode

    There are still a number of DMUs coming, namely the Class 195s and the unclassed DMUs for West Midlands.


  • #13
    GM228
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    You do realise I was joking about the Pacers I think they would be the last trains we'd want to see on the Irish network anytime soon.

    Indeed, just pointing out that they were offered (and of course rejected).


  • #14
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,686 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    GM228 wrote: »
    There are still a number of DMUs coming, namely the Class 195s and the unclassed DMUs for West Midlands.

    Yes - but the real problem is 1st January 2020 and operators having enough DDA approved stock because on that day a large number of DMU and EMU stock can no longer be used because they do not meet accessibility requirements and some of the replacement stock is running late and some interim solutions are going to have to be used unless the UK relaxes the DDA deadlines.

    This is going to hit both the TOCs who are losing large amounts of rolling stock without adequate replacement in, as well as other TOCs who were depending on cascades from said TOCs that are now not likely to get them. The UK is more than covered for DMUs from late 2021 onwards, but there could well be a sticky 18 month period from the start of 2020 between the time a whole load of trains get barred under DDA and the delayed stock and new orders come on stream.

    Look at Greater Anglia for instance - losing approx 150 carriages worth of 317s and 321s from 1st January 2020 and it's looking extremely unlikely Bombardier will have enough 720 units ready to replace all of them by the same time, judging by the chronic problems they're having with the Aventras for London Overground. That in turn may well result in Greater Anglia using bi-mode 755s as a stop-gap on commuter services, which means the DMUs that were supposed to be replaced by the 755s, will stay on for longer, which means they cannot be cascaded to operators who need them to replace their own DDA non-compliant stock.

    There is no serious current DMU shortage in the UK and there is not going to be a medium or long term one because of all the orders and various bi-mode projects that will come on stream and start entering service. But there might be a temporary one from 1st January 2020 for a period of 18 months between these two things happening, but Transpennine Express don't seem as exposed to that at present as much as operators of the 170s are, so that should be good news for the availability of the 185s


  • #15
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,140 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    i reccan the uk government will relax the DDA. it's not ideal but it's probably more politically acceptible then lots of bustitution.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.



  • #16
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,686 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    end of the road wrote: »
    i reccan the uk government will relax the DDA. it's not ideal but it's probably more politically acceptible then lots of bustitution.

    They will really have to, as if they don't there will be quite a few operators who are in the same boat of Greater Anglia, who are going to have a 12-18 month period between the old stock being DDA barred and enough new stock being in service or cascaded stock being available. The EMT HST DDA work is also apparently not going to be done in time for instance.

    I have read a post on another forum though that some believe Labour might allow that to happen to point the fingers at the privatised railway and kill it off, although you have to say, making the public suffer in order to make a point like that would be a pretty big stroke to pull.

    The reality is though, that it's probably going to come down to relaxing the regulations or mass cancellations since it's hard to see the multitude of other issues all being resolved that have led to that choice being necessary.


  • #17
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,140 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    devnull wrote: »
    They will really have to, as if they don't there will be quite a few operators who are in the same boat of Greater Anglia, who are going to have a 12-18 month period between the old stock being DDA barred and enough new stock being in service or cascaded stock being available. The EMT HST DDA work is also apparently not going to be done in time for instance.

    I have read a post on another forum though that some believe Labour might allow that to happen to point the fingers at the privatised railway and kill it off, although you have to say, making the public suffer in order to make a point like that would be a pretty big stroke to pull.

    The reality is though, that it's probably going to come down to relaxing the regulations or mass cancellations since it's hard to see the multitude of other issues all being resolved that have led to that choice being necessary.

    agreed. what's worse about the whole thing is that dft knew this was coming and waited until the last minute effectively.
    tbh the observation about labour isn't something that could be totally ruled out, after all both parties over there are capible of pulling strokes regardless of the consiquences to prove a point when it suits their agenda.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.



  • #18
    tabbey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    devnull wrote: »

    The 185s would be excellent however - they're by far the most reliable modern Diesel unit in the UK, having won the Golden Spanner award fives times in the last 10 years including the last 3 years in a row, have recently had a substantial refurbishment and like all the Siemens Desiro range, have excellent build quality.

    The Siemens Desiro is indeed well-built and very reliable, but my perception of the 185 is probably coloured by standing on overcrowded 3 car sets on Trans Pennine services.
    The seating is also not great for a mainline train, although I am impressed by the first class accommodation on the video.


  • #19
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,686 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    tabbey wrote: »
    The Siemens Desiro is indeed well-built and very reliable, but my perception of the 185 is probably coloured by standing on overcrowded 3 car sets on Trans Pennine services.

    Indeed, the overcrowding was a serious problem on the routes they operated on after a few years in operation, but a lot of that was down to the Department of Transport who cut the initial order of 56x 3 car units to 51x 3 car units and later prevented TPE from taking up an option to add a fourth car to said units.

    Eventually in 2009 TPE managed to get the Department for Transport to order a batch of 200 new DMU carriages to resolve the capacity issues for themselves, First Great Western and Northern Rail, which was then later cancelled by the DFT following announcements of electrification.

    The DFT then laughably came out and had a go at TPE for overcrowding, having spent the previous 6 years preventing TPE adding any capacity, by reducing train orders, preventing expansion of capacity on the basis that it would not be needed and giving them more services (Scotland) to operate whilst cancelling orders for rolling stock.

    The seating is the same as on all the Suburban Desiro fleets, for me it's pretty comfortable but then again I'm tall and such seats are always better than some of the more classical designs.


  • #20
    SeanW
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,868 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Those Class 185s look nice :) they would certainly be good for regional use, Intercity use in a pinch. Definitely an improvement over the 29000s.

    But seeing as Irish Rail is planning to buy dual mode trains to replace the DARTs, would it not be a good idea to get a few more of them in an Intercity/Regional configuration (e.g. toilets, first class, luggage racks and so on). After all, within a few years, all of the approaches to Dublin will be electrified (from the North at Balbriggan, from the South at Greystones, from the North-West at Maynooth and the South West at Hazelhatch).
    And no lease payments.


  • #21
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    SeanW wrote: »
    Those Class 185s look nice :) they would certainly be good for regional use, Intercity use in a pinch. Definitely an improvement over the 29000s.

    But seeing as Irish Rail is planning to buy dual mode trains to replace the DARTs, would it not be a good idea to get a few more of them in an Intercity/Regional configuration (e.g. toilets, first class, luggage racks and so on). After all, within a few years, all of the approaches to Dublin will be electrified (from the North at Balbriggan, from the South at Greystones, from the North-West at Maynooth and the South West at Hazelhatch).
    And no lease payments.

    The 185s have all the features you mentioned


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  • #22
    SeanW
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,868 ✭✭✭SeanW


    I was referring to the hybrids that IE were looking at, the trains that can use either diesel or electricity from overhead wires depending on whether electricity is available or not.

    Discussed in another thread which I'll dig up shortly, IE wants these to replace the Gen 1 DARTs. Might it be a good idea to get regional flavours of these hybrids?


  • #23
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,542 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The dual-modes won't be here for five years realistically, probably longer. UK leased stock could start appearing within 12 months if the re-gauging was done quickly.

    Also, they'll have toilets, luggage racks etc anyway


  • #24
    SeanW
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,868 ✭✭✭SeanW


    If it's to get trains quickly, that makes sense.


  • #25
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,686 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    L1011 wrote: »
    The dual-modes won't be here for five years realistically, probably longer. UK leased stock could start appearing within 12 months if the re-gauging was done quickly.

    Also, they'll have toilets, luggage racks etc anyway

    Not going to happen anywhere near that quickly. According to what I've read the Class 185s are on lease to Transpennine Express until 31st December 2019, so I can't see any of them entering service in Irish Rail until near the middle of 2020 at the earliest to be honest. The good thing is that their replacement fleet is more or less running on time at the moment, so the leases will probably not have to be extended.

    The Class 170s are said to be coming off lease two or three months earlier, but there is a strong chance that they will remain with their current operator for an extended period of time because of expected delays with other new stock and the resulting cascades and the upcoming DDA regulations coming in meaning the existing operators will need them.


  • #26
    EdgeCase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    Could Brexit complicate this as they'll be outside the EU after March. I could predict a few unforseen issues with leases, approvals and all sorts of things emerging.


  • #27
    GM228
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    EdgeCase wrote: »
    Could Brexit complicate this as they'll be outside the EU after March. I could predict a few unforseen issues with leases, approvals and all sorts of things emerging.

    Other than possible lease related charges (taxs etc) I can't see any issues as they have already been type approved under EU regulation requirements and are registered on the EU vehicle database.


  • #28
    tabbey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    SeanW wrote: »
    within a few years, all of the approaches to Dublin will be electrified (from the North at Balbriggan, from the South at Greystones, from the North-West at Maynooth and the South West at Hazelhatch).

    Within a few years?

    We have been told that for decades. In reality, all that has happened is the cancellation of the interconnector / DART Underground.


  • #29
    EdgeCase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    GM228 wrote: »
    Other than possible lease related charges (taxs etc) I can't see any issues as they have already been type approved under EU regulation requirements and are registered on the EU vehicle database.

    They'd have to be registered on any database via Irish Rail as the UK won't be able to do that anymore, particularly if they exit without any agreement.

    I wouldn't be signing any infrastructure contracts with UK companies until after March and after the dust has settled as we have absolutely no idea of outcomes yet. It's all speculation.


  • #30
    GM228
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    From Modern Railways magazine:
    UK DMUs for IÉ

    As a potential replacement for the 2700 Class units, which will remain out of use, IÉ has confirmed to Modern Railways that it is also currently discussing leasing (and re-gauging to 1,600mm) UK Class 170 or 185 DMUs with UK ROSCOs, which anticipate having these vehicles available in the near future. The IÉ board has decided not to purchase any more 'pure diesel' trains, so in future new stock will be electric or hybrid (or battery).


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  • #31
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Call me a cynic but I am not convinced leasing a fleet will ever happen particularly given the relatively short period they are required for. They will need to bite the bullet and get 2700s going in Limerick short term.


  • #32
    Ireland trains
    Registered Users Posts: 398 ✭✭Ireland trains


    My modern railways magazine has not yet arrrived but i heard there is an piece saying IÉ will be ordering 41 centre 22k class coaches.
    If this happens what is the likley new formation.
    Will some 3 cars be extended to 4 car and some 4 cars to 5 cars.


  • #33
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Call me a cynic but I am not convinced leasing a fleet will ever happen particularly given the relatively short period they are required for. They will need to bite the bullet and get 2700s going in Limerick short term.

    Agreed can't see it happening myself considering the work it would take to re-gauge them.


  • #34
    GM228
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Agreed can't see it happening myself considering the work it would take to re-gauge them.

    There is very little involved in re-gauging, depending on their design it is either a bogie swap or just wheelset swaps.

    Whilst there is a substantial cost involved the actual swap out can be done in a day.


  • #35
    GM228
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    Ireland trains wrote: »
    My modern railways magazine has not yet arrrived but i heard there is an piece saying IÉ will be ordering 41 centre 22k class coaches.
    If this happens what is the likley new formation.
    Will some 3 cars be extended to 4 car and some 4 cars to 5 cars.

    Formations not confirmed yet, although it is expected there will be 6 car sets once again and more 5 car sets.

    See this thread:

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057679208


  • #36
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,686 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    GM228 wrote: »
    There is very little involved in re-gauging, depending on their design it is either a bogie swap or just wheelset swaps.

    Whilst there is a substantial cost involved the actual swap out can be done in a day.

    The 185s are maintained by Siemens directly in the UK I believe and you would imagine that they would be able to do all the work if needed to get them over here. Although saying that the facilities may well be owned by the operators, but the fact there are already Siemens engineers in place maintaining the trains might help with getting any work done.

    The 170s in most fleets tend to be maintained in house by the operators, so might be more difficult to get them done, since the operators are not going to be doing the work for Irish Rail, so they'd most likely have to contact Bombardier out to do that and probably go up to Derby first to have the work carried out.

    I'd be curious if Irish Rail contact the maintenance out to the manufacturer for the lease period if they do come, would be a sensible idea if they are regauging them, although not sure how well that would go down with the unions since they may see contracting it out as a bad thing, even though it would be the best thing to do IMO.


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  • #37
    GM228
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    devnull wrote: »
    The 185s are maintained by Siemens directly in the UK I believe and you would imagine that they would be able to do all the work if needed to get them over here. Although saying that the facilities may well be owned by the operators, but the fact there are already Siemens engineers in place maintaining the trains might help with getting any work done.

    The 170s in most fleets tend to be maintained in house by the operators, so might be more difficult to get them done, since the operators are not going to be doing the work for Irish Rail, so they'd most likely have to contact Bombardier out to do that and probably go up to Derby first to have the work carried out.

    I'd be curious if Irish Rail contact the maintenance out to the manufacturer for the lease period if they do come, would be a sensible idea if they are regauging them, although not sure how well that would go down with the unions since they may see contracting it out as a bad thing, even though it would be the best thing to do IMO.

    It would not be as simple as just getting Siemens to do the re-gauge work, it would need to be tendered out by the lease company.

    And unless there is a maintenance agreement as part of the lease IE would also have to tender maintenance if they chose to go down that route, my understanding is there are no plans to outsource general maintenance (though a lease could change that). IE already contract out certain heavy maintenance functions.


  • #38
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,686 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    GM228 wrote: »
    It would not be as simple as just getting Siemens to do the re-gauge work, it would need to be tendered out by the lease company.

    And unless there is a maintenance agreement as part of the lease IE would also have to tender maintenance if they chose to go down that route, my understanding is there are no plans to outsource general maintenance (though a lease could change that). IE already contract out certain heavy maintenance functions.

    I guessed it wouldn't be - I was thinking in an ideal world, of what would produce the best outcome in terms of reliability and performance of the trains, since most people I speak to in the UK are the belief that the fact Siemens tended to prefer to maintain stock that they supply to operators as being one of the key reasons that they are top of the reliability tables.

    I would understand why Irish Rail would want to keep the maintenance in-house, but at the same time, you've got a fleet of ultra reliable trains who have been maintained by their manufacturer for the last 10 years and if they come this way, you're going to have to train up a whole bunch of engineers, who have never seen the units before and my fear would be that reliability would suffer.


  • #39
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Think Siemens will send a team to be based in Dublin for a period of time to train/oversee etc maintenance process just like Hyundai Rotem had a team here for 5-6 years.


  • #40
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,686 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Think Siemens will send a team to be based in Dublin for a period of time to train/oversee etc maintenance process just like Hyundai Rotem had a team here for 5-6 years.

    You'd like to think so - one of the key reasons that the Desiro UK fleets are so reliable historically is that they have all been on Full Service contracts from Siemens directly.


  • #41
    Ireland trains
    Registered Users Posts: 398 ✭✭Ireland trains


    So if these trains come to ireland in 2020 what would be the priority capacity/service increase routes
    Would it likley be:
    1 Maynooth, M3 Parkway, Drogheda
    2 PPT, kildare/portlaiose
    3 longer distance commuter: newry /longford/arklow/athlone/thurles

    4 Intercity:
    Hourly enterprise
    More frequent rosslare (7pd)
    More galway (nearly hourly)

    Just curious
    Wouldn't mind hearing others ideas.

    Also is it just me or should there be some PPT services to portlaiose to connect to cork train
    Finally, why do irish rail have empty transfers ( eg Heuston-GCD, Bray-connolly).
    Does it not make more sense to allow passengers onboard because its not going to cost Irish rail anyhing


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  • #42
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,140 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Ireland trains wrote: »
    So if these trains come to ireland in 2020 what would be the priority capacity/service increase routes
    Would it likley be:
    1 Maynooth, M3 Parkway, Drogheda
    2 PPT, kildare/portlaiose
    3 longer distance commuter: newry /longford/arklow/athlone/thurles

    4 Intercity:
    Hourly enterprise
    More frequent rosslare (7pd)
    More galway (nearly hourly)

    Just curious
    Wouldn't mind hearing others ideas.

    Also is it just me or should there be some PPT services to portlaiose to connect to cork train
    Finally, why do irish rail have empty transfers ( eg Heuston-GCD, Bray-connolly).
    Does it not make more sense to allow passengers onboard because its not going to cost Irish rail anyhing


    nothing has been confirmed ultimately. all though i wouldn't be surprised if they end up being concentrated on 1 side of the rail system. possibly the connolly side in exchange for all 22k going to heuston. can't see hourly belfast or galway or any increases on the long distance routes.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.



  • #43
    GM228
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    The proposal is that any stock to be leased is to bolster commuter services and not for IC work.

    Kildare, Maynooth and Northern Commuter lines have been mentioned.


  • #44
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,140 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    GM228 wrote: »
    The proposal is that any stock to be leased is to bolster commuter services and not for IC work.

    Kildare, Maynooth and Northern Commuter lines have been mentioned.

    do you know how many units are expected to be leased if the lease goes ahead, or is it a case of taking what is availible as long as the price is reasonable?

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.



  • #45
    Ireland trains
    Registered Users Posts: 398 ✭✭Ireland trains


    Will irish rail ever have commuter services to arklow/wicklow/gorey.
    Hope the '170' trains come as they seem fairly good.
    Would the leased stock get the new green 'goodness' commuter livery


  • #46
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,140 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Ireland trains wrote: »
    Will irish rail ever have commuter services to arklow/wicklow/gorey.
    Hope the '170' trains come as they seem fairly good.
    Would the leased stock get the new green 'goodness' commuter livery



    they already do, or at least they did have, a couple of commuters to and from gorey along with the others from rosslare europort. i can't see any service increases happening to anywhere tbh, rather just capacity increases on the dublin suburban.
    as for livery, who knows. i suspect they may just be vinyled rather then given a full repaint unless they are going to be here for a sufficient time to make repainting jobs worth it. but your guess is as good as mine.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.



  • #47
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,686 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Ireland trains wrote: »
    Will irish rail ever have commuter services to arklow/wicklow/gorey.
    Hope the '170' trains come as they seem fairly good.
    Would the leased stock get the new green 'goodness' commuter livery

    Would prefer the 185s myself as they have higher spec recently refurbished interiors, are newer, more reliable and all of the same specification and all three cars and have spent their whole life maintained by the manufacturer.

    The 170s will be a mix of two and three cars and to various interiors and internal configurations and have been maintained by various franchises at various times and witl be around half a dozen years older


  • #48
    Ireland trains
    Registered Users Posts: 398 ✭✭Ireland trains


    Tbh I dont care which trains whey pic at this point as long as the acually come


  • #49
    Marcusm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,430 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    devnull wrote: »
    I guessed it wouldn't be - I was thinking in an ideal world, of what would produce the best outcome in terms of reliability and performance of the trains, since most people I speak to in the UK are the belief that the fact Siemens tended to prefer to maintain stock that they supply to operators as being one of the key reasons that they are top of the reliability tables.

    I would understand why Irish Rail would want to keep the maintenance in-house, but at the same time, you've got a fleet of ultra reliable trains who have been maintained by their manufacturer for the last 10 years and if they come this way, you're going to have to train up a whole bunch of engineers, who have never seen the units before and my fear would be that reliability would suffer.

    Eversholt, probably the most capable U.K. Rosco, would continue management of the maintenance.


  • #50
    Drifter50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 617 ✭✭✭Drifter50


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Call me a cynic but I am not convinced leasing a fleet will ever happen particularly given the relatively short period they are required for. They will need to bite the bullet and get 2700s going in Limerick short term.

    I would agree with that Jamie, can`t see huge expense being sanctioned especially short term when we have a bunch of 2700 units sitting in Limerick gathering dust.

    The 2700 project has stop started a couple of times now, they just need to get on with it


  • #51
    GM228
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    Marcusm wrote: »
    Eversholt, probably the most capable U.K. Rosco, would continue management of the maintenance.

    That is not for certain and depends on weather IE take a dry or wet lease option.


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