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Wasted Heritage Buildings - Your nominations

13

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 149 ✭✭eh2010


    AI wrote: »
    I was talking about my book 'Abandoned Mansions of Ireland' on the RTE History Show last Sunday:

    http://www.rte.ie/podcasts/2011/pc/pod-v-09011110m10sthehistoryshow.mp3

    Brilliant book got it for christmas. Took me a while to get it as the shop said the publisher had to print more a due to high demand, so it must be a hit. Do you know of any books to answer my quiery?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 593 ✭✭✭V480


    AI wrote: »
    I was talking about my book 'Abandoned Mansions of Ireland' on the RTE History Show last Sunday:

    http://www.rte.ie/podcasts/2011/pc/pod-v-09011110m10sthehistoryshow.mp3


    Very good interview on a very interesting topic. I particularly liked the story regarding Buttevant Castle and the Barry family. Always interested to find out any information about the Barry's.


  • Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭AI


    eh2010 wrote: »
    Brilliant book got it for christmas. Took me a while to get it as the shop said the publisher had to print more a due to high demand, so it must be a hit. Do you know of any books to answer my quiery?

    A Guide to Irish Country Houses by Mark Bence-Jones (which is the second edition of Burke's Guide to Country Houses) is my bible. The entries for each house are brief and can be out of date but it is still the most complete book on Irish houses. Sadly Mark Bence-Jones passed away last year. I believe he was the greatest authority and writer on Irish country houses.

    To start with I'd also recommend getting:

    'The Irish Country House' by The Knight of Glin & James Peill just published last year. It covers ten houses which are still in the hands of the original family.

    'Irish Houses & Gardens: From the Archives of Country Life' by Sean O'Reilly.

    I'm glad you like my own book 'Abandoned Mansions of Ireland'. The first print run sold out in six weeks but it is back on the shelves now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭AI


    V480 wrote: »
    Very good interview on a very interesting topic. I particularly liked the story regarding Buttevant Castle and the Barry family. Always interested to find out any information about the Barry's.

    Thanks. You're at the mercy of the interviewer on those live radio shows and I'm always well nervous. If you like the stories mentioned then I'd recommend checking out the book, you won't be disappointed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    AI wrote: »
    Thanks. You're at the mercy of the interviewer on those live radio shows and I'm always well nervous. If you like the stories mentioned then I'd recommend checking out the book, you won't be disappointed.


    I really like the stories and gossipy side of this :):)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 88 ✭✭keithcan


    This is great - I was wondering what the Govt should do with all the money it has to spare. Do up each and every old building, it would seem. And sure they'd all just cost about €18,590 each to reinstate. No problem whatsoever. Hello? real world?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    keithcan wrote: »
    This is great - I was wondering what the Govt should do with all the money it has to spare. Do up each and every old building, it would seem. And sure they'd all just cost about €18,590 each to reinstate. No problem whatsoever. Hello? real world?

    There is probably a lot of red tape and useless rules about reclaiming buildings and if some were salvageable why not make them open to people to buy and renovate as homes.

    Jeremy Irons did

    Will of Irons - Inside Jeremy Irons West Cork castle



    No_name_235869t.jpg


    By Martina Devlin

    Saturday November 22 2008

    Though a notoriously private man, Jeremy Irons invited Martina Devlin inside his restored West Cork castle and held nothing back on a dizzying array of topics from abortion and the Catholic Church to farming and marriage
    Jeremy Irons is not quite like other people. Not because he has an instantly recognisable face and voice. Or because he lives in a medieval castle keep. Or because he casually mentions Dan (Daniel Day-Lewis ) and John (Sir John Gielgud).
    He is not quite like other people because there is an unconventional side to him, despite having been shoehorned into the British public school system.
    Anyone who paints his castle walls peach is inevitably a little quirky.



    More here



    http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/home-garden/will-of-irons--inside-jeremy-irons-west-cork-castle-1549241.html

    It does not have to be right inside if th fabric of the building is saved.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    keithcan wrote: »
    This is great - I was wondering what the Govt should do with all the money it has to spare. Do up each and every old building, it would seem. And sure they'd all just cost about €18,590 each to reinstate. No problem whatsoever. Hello? real world?

    Actually those who are in the campaign to rejuvenate the Moore Street Area have American Philanthropists who are more than willing to donate the 12 million Euro necessary to fund the project!. So it is the government being slow acting and uncooperative that is the problem, and I am sure there are more willing to fund other projects!

    Many of these buildings can become secure some income also, look at Bunratty Castle!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 88 ✭✭keithcan


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    Actually those who are in the campaign to rejuvenate the Moore Street Area have American Philanthropists who are more than willing to donate the 12 million Euro necessary to fund the project!. So it is the government being slow acting and uncooperative that is the problem, and I am sure there are more willing to fund other projects!

    OK, who here is "the Government" ?? If you're going to accuse people of being 'uncooperative' etc. I think it behoves you to be more specific about who you mean. Is it Dublin City Council? or An Taisce? or the Dept of Environment? or Failte Ireland? I personally do not know who from 'The Govt' is involved or not involved in this. But I would strongly advise that if you are behind a project and you want to get the State sector to put taxpayers or ratepyers money in, you really should get to grips with who you need to have your dialogue with. If you chose not to do this, then you can always sit on the sideline and blame 'the Govt'. But if you're really into a project, it should be possible to get beyond antipathy to the Govt and suss out who are the right people to work with.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    keithcan wrote: »
    OK, who here is "the Government" ?? If you're going to accuse people of being 'uncooperative' etc. I think it behoves you to be more specific about who you mean. Is it Dublin City Council? or An Taisce? or the Dept of Environment? or Failte Ireland? I personally do not know who from 'The Govt' is involved or not involved in this. But I would strongly advise that if you are behind a project and you want to get the State sector to put taxpayers or ratepyers money in, you really should get to grips with who you need to have your dialogue with. If you chose not to do this, then you can always sit on the sideline and blame 'the Govt'. But if you're really into a project, it should be possible to get beyond antipathy to the Govt and suss out who are the right people to work with.

    Speaks the voice of somebody who has obviously never tried to preserve anything in Ireland. :rolleyes:


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Speaks the voice of somebody who has obviouslyy never tried to preserve anything in Ireland. :rolleyes:

    And the original 12 million might get you the site and refurb but you are then left with the running costs etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭AI


    My exhibition 'Abandoned Mansions of Ireland' reopens at Castletown House, Celbridge on Friday 1st April and runs until 2nd May.
    The exhibition is installed in the main front hall of the house and is FREE admission.

    exhib_castletown1.jpg

    Castletown is one of the finest historic houses in Ireland and is well worth a visit. Enjoy.

    Castletown.JPG


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    And thats Donadea Castle on the books cover if I am not pedantically mistaken

    http://www.kildare.ie/local-history/donadea/donadea-castle.htm

    And here

    http://www.coillteoutdoors.ie/?id=53&rec_site=5 :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭AI


    It is Donadea Castle on the exhibition flyer. Donadea is one of the forty five lost estate houses which are documented in my exhibition.

    Despite being in the care of the Irish State, the roof was removed from Donadea Castle in the 1950s. It had been home to the Aylmer family from 1558 until 1935. Now fenced off and left to crumble. Donadea is just down the road from Castletown House so you could easily see both in a day.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    And you could bring the kids, dog and picnic cos donadea is only about 10 or 12 miles from castletown and has a lake and ducks and forrest.


  • Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭AI


    My 'Abandoned Mansions of Ireland' exhibition has reopened at NUI Galway, its in the James Hardiman Library and again completely free entry. Runs until June 24th.

    http://hardimanlibrary.blogspot.com/2011/05/abandoned-mansions-exhibition-of.html

    http://www.abandonedireland.com/Exhibition.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    keithcan wrote: »
    OK, who here is "the Government" ?? If you're going to accuse people of being 'uncooperative' etc. I think it behoves you to be more specific about who you mean. Is it Dublin City Council? or An Taisce? ....

    Just to correct a common misapprehension; An Taisce are not a Govt body; they are a registered charity and they are a proscribed body under the various planning acts. This means that have a statutory role in advising on certain planning matters. They do not make decisions on planning matters.

    Other proscribed bodies include Minister of the Environment, the Heritage Council, the Arts Council, and Bord Failte.

    In a nutshell, they are a planning, heritage and environmental watchdog with some limited statutory rights but no power to make decisions.

    They also, as I a said above, are a charity. More info here
    http://www.antaisce.org/
    and
    http://www.facebook.com/AnTaisce


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    You forgot to mention that An Taisce are also moribund. They are neither one thing or the other any more. They have bits and pieces of property (e.g. the neglected Booterstown Marsh) that they fail to look after, they do lots of good work in the planning arena but this alienates them from many who misunderstand their statutory role. I feel that they have lost their way ever since they moved from their centrally located offices in Percy Place to their 'ivory tower' in the Tailor's Hall. They used to produce a worthwhile newsletter and later a magazine when I was first a member back in the early 1970s but sadly this has gone through various metamorphoses over the decades and I don't even know whether it exists anymore. An Taisce urgently needs to reinvent itself for the 21st century.

    Sorry for going off on a rant. :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    You forgot to mention that An Taisce are also moribund. They are neither one thing or the other any more.

    On the contrary, I would say that An Taisce is more active than ever. I hope you don't feel that I'm being picky but almost everything you have posted is incorrect.

    Could you clarify what you mean by "neither one thing or the other any more"?
    They have bits and pieces of property

    They have 10,000 acres, 45 historic properties, in 10 counties. All of which is held in trust for future generations. Hardly 'bits and pieces'.
    (e.g. the neglected Booterstown Marsh) that they fail to look after,

    DLR county council are responsible for maintaining Booterstown marsh, whilst AT holds it in trust.

    The management of the Marsh:
    The Managers; An Taisce represented by Dun Laoghaire Association assisted by the National Properties Group.
    The Scientists; research in the reserve and advise on the management regimen.
    The Users; represented by An Taisce, Birdwatch Ireland, and local residents.

    Fundamental land/water management (ie tidal flow) and maintainance is carried out by DLR coco.

    What aspect would you say is neglected? It is after all marshland, and still recovering from the oil spils of the 80s.
    they do lots of good work in the planning arena but this alienates them from many who misunderstand their statutory role.

    I would say they have been more vilified than misunderstood, as we now know the excesses of the boom have cost us all very dearly, An Taisce have been consistantly warning Government, Local Authorities and Business that that the insatiable property development madness was not sustainable. There are many with vested interests, not the least local and national politicians, who have been more than disingenous in labelling An Taisce just about every name under the sun during (and after) the boom years.

    Does An Taisce have to explain sustainability and it's role in the planning process over and over again? I don't see the EPA having to justify the role it plays in protecting the environment?
    I feel that they have lost their way ever since they moved from their centrally located offices in Percy Place to their 'ivory tower' in the Tailor's Hall.

    The phrase ivory tower would imply that you feel AT are somehow not connected with the real world. On the contrary, the last ten years have demonstrated how much more realistic they are than all the pie-in-the-sky "development" schemes we have had. I think history will judge them better than the corrupt establishment that has got us in this mess.

    Tailor's Hall is the last surviving Guild Hall and one of the more important pieces of Dublin's historic fabric. AT have done a valuable service ensuring that this has not been left to rot like so many other import buildings in Dublin.

    "centrally located offices in Percy Place" - is there a slight D4 bias in your your definition of central? I'd say Tailor's Hall is a lot closer to any centre you'd care to name - Viking onwards.
    They used to produce a worthwhile newsletter and later a magazine when I was first a member back in the early 1970s but sadly this has gone through various metamorphoses over the decades and I don't even know whether it exists anymore.

    Forgive me if it sounds like I'm being "smart", but perhaps you didn't update your membership? And did you look at their website before you wrote this :)

    http://www.antaisce.org/WhatsNow/Publications/Newsletters/tabid/598/language/en-US/Default.aspx

    Here's the monthly newsletter archive for 2010/2009. Members get this emailed to them every month. You could renew your membership, it's a good newsletter :D

    An Taisce urgently needs to reinvent itself for the 21st century.

    What would you propose An Taisce drop from it's remit. It does this...
    • is an impartial monitor on the application of EU environmental legislation at local level
    • promotes environmental awareness through Green Schools and other educational programmes
    • is a network of Local Associations supported by An Taisce through facilitating a bottom-up consultative approach when making submissions on national or local planning policy.
    • a key consultation Prescribed Body under Section 24 of the 2000 Planning and Development Act for input into national policy formulation.
    • acts as a key consultation Prescribed Body under Article 28 (1) of the 2001 Regulations for planning applications that fall under (amenity, protected structures, sites of heritage interest, national monuments, nature conservation) and for applications that contain ‘EIS’.
    • acts as a key consultation Prescribed Body in the area of waste and natural environment under: S.I. 538/2001 in relation to Forestry applications; The EPA Act in relation to Integrated Pollution Control and Waste Licenses & The Aquaculture & Fisheries Amendment Act (1997) for Aquaculture applications.
    • is part of a large global movement of approved National Trusts which preserve and hold property in perpetuity for the benefit of their respective peoples.

    As well as campaigning on various issues, including most recently;

    the decision to take the Government into court for the Judicial Review of the Corrib Oral Hearing which An Taisce holds to be in breach of EU Environmental Law.

    The campaign to prevent the extension of Dublin Port to Braemore, thus destroying pristine coastline protected under EU Law, and also impacting neolithic tombs of similar significance to Newgrange.

    The campaign to prevent Ireland's forests being sold to te highest bidder.

    Campaigns to prevent the destruction of Ireland's peatland natural environment.

    Formation of an Energy forum to allow key players in the energy industry (who did not talk to each other previously) to exchange ideas about sustainable energy generation.

    I could go on all day, but which of these should An Taisce "reinvent", perhaps what really need to happen is that our Local and National Government needs to reinvent how it allows decisions to be made that impact the build and natural environment, and the Irish people need to stop shooting the messenger (not just An Taisce, other "naysayers" have been lambasted for there so called "talking down the economy" over the last few years) and instead turn their focus on the vested interests, cronyism and ongoing corruption.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Well, that's very comprehensive and I will come to you on it later. However, on the subject of Booterstown Marsh: Since I first went birdwatching/nest robbing there in the early 1970s it has been in alarming decline. In recent years the reedbeds have disappeared completely and the only 'work' that that has been carried out has been the dumping of tons of builders rubble in the middle of the marsh. When the tide is in the few remaining birds in the sanctuary can be seen peeping out from the rubble. I don't care who owns what or is responsible for what - the simple fact is that the marsh was given in trust to An Taisce and they have plainly failed to look after it properly.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    DLR co co surveyed the site in 2008 and didn't raise significant concerns,

    http://www.dlrcoco.ie/media/media,3168,en.pdf

    plainly failed to look after it properly

    What, specifically, would you have done differently? Could you be clear, and perhaps we could take this specific issue to your other thread on Booterstown Marsh?

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=65600321


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    MadsL wrote: »
    DLR co co surveyed the site in 2008 and didn't raise significant concerns,

    http://www.dlrcoco.ie/media/media,3168,en.pdf




    What, specifically, would you have done differently? Could you be clear, and perhaps we could take this specific issue to your other thread on Booterstown Marsh?

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=65600321

    Well, there is precious little reference to Booterstown Marsh in that report apart from a mention of a few plants, some snipe and salinity. The same could have been written by anybody who had not even visited the site. No reference to pollution, disappearance of breeding habitat etc. As you say the topic deserves its own thread but is there any point?

    As regards what would I have done - got in some expert advice 30+ years ago - the RSPB for instance - I'm 100% sure that An Taisce never went near them. I was involved in a proposal to clean up the place while I was still at school and there was zero official interest. Such a clean-up has never taken place to this date as far as I know.
    DLR Co.Council can't even look after their built heritage (incl. Blackrock Park, Williamstown Martello Tower, Lord Cloncurry's Towers & Bathing Pavilion at Maretimo) let alone nature reserves, so there is little point in pursuing this matter further. You do if you want to but I have only one agenda these days - self preservation.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    MadsL - Had a look at the website and it appears that An Taisce manages 12 properties NOT 45 as you stated (including their Tailor's Hall HQ and Booterstown Marsh) as I said they 'own bits and pieces of property' - a bit of bog, a towpath near Navan and a tiny weighhouse in Gort. I haven't been a member for many, many years due to my utter disillusion with the organisation. The website brings it all back - excessive membership fees, mind crushing e-newsletters and 'regular' magazines! Moribund indeed - I'm sorry that I brought the subject up! Let's go back to wasted heritage buildings - excluding the Tailor's Hall.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    My understanding is only the 12 properties listed can be visited; but it is 45 in total: I think that includes historic buildings on land owned by AT but not 'visitable' except by arrangement.
    Abby McSherry, PR Officer commented ‘An Taisce cares for 10,500 acres of unspoilt Irish countryside, including pristine bogs, dramatic offshore islands and heather clad mountains, we also manage 45 historic structures in 10 counties across this beautiful land. ’
    Well, there is precious little reference to Booterstown Marsh in that report apart from a mention of a few plants, some snipe and salinity. The same could have been written by anybody who had not even visited the site. No reference to pollution, disappearance of breeding habitat etc. As you say the topic deserves its own thread but is there any point?

    Well, if there's no point why did you start a thread on it?? I'm not sure what you are disillusioned with, but you seem to be blaming An Taisce for it..I'm not clear why?
    As regards what would I have done - got in some expert advice 30+ years ago - the RSPB for instance - I'm 100% sure that An Taisce never went near them. I was involved in a proposal to clean up the place while I was still at school and there was zero official interest. Such a clean-up has never taken place to this date as far as I know.

    Birdwatch Ireland are part of the management group, would they not count as an expert group? What clean-up do you think is required? Is it litter? I believe Friends of Booterstown March organise these fairly regularly. I confess I'm not up to speed with the current litter situation as I haven't been out there in while, but could you be more specific about what the problem is as you see it. The National Parks and Wildlife Service also have a role to play as the site is a proposed Natural Heritage Area (since 1995) and still not adequately protected by Irish law along with about 600 other sites. An Taisce has reviewed these and presented it's findings to Governrment in Jan 2010. You can read more here
    http://www.antaisce.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=a0roZSvXhaM%3D&tabid=633&language=en-US
    and
    http://www.antaisce.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=jZiBx6%2B3s7I%3D&tabid=301&language=en-US

    An TAisce is actively lobbying for great legal protection, funding and recognition of 600+ proposed Natural Heritage Areas. There is a wider picture here.
    DLR Co.Council can't even look after their built heritage (incl. Blackrock Park, Williamstown Martello Tower, Lord Cloncurry's Towers & Bathing Pavilion at Maretimo) let alone nature reserves, so there is little point in pursuing this matter further.

    They have a legal obligation to do so, have you contacted your councillors about this? Taken all steps open to you? Have you contacted the Minister if they are not helping?
    You do if you want to but I have only one agenda these days - self preservation.

    So it's important but you can't be bothered? Good job you have a charity like An Taisce who will lobby on issues like these on your behalf. But you don't appear to like the way An Taisce works, so you complain here. I can't really help you any more than trying to give you the information.
    utter disillusion with the organisation.

    Clearly, but what positive suggestions do you have??
    The website brings it all back - excessive membership fees,

    €45 a year is excessive? National Trust UK is £50, RSPB is £36, Birdwatch is €40.
    mind crushing e-newsletters

    In the single evening since I sent you the link you have read them all??
    and 'regular' magazines!

    Which until today you thought was no longer published?
    Moribund indeed - I'm sorry that I brought the subject up! Let's go back to wasted heritage buildings - excluding the Tailor's Hall.

    Why did you bring it up? Just to bash An Taisce in an ill-informed way? You might at least now acknowledge that they do fantastic work on behalf of Ireland's Natural Environment and that without them Ireland would be in even more of a mess as there would be no-one reminding the Govt of their responsibilties...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    A prob with groups like an Taisce is that they are administrators and not enthusiasts.

    Take Swords Castle

    http://homepage.eircom.net/~aroundswords/swordshistory.htm

    Swords Castle
    castle.gif Construction work on the castle began in the 12th Century with the appointment of the first Norman bishop of Dublin, John Comyn. The castle was founded on the Well associated with St. Colmcille and is prominently situated in the Ward River Valley Linear Park. The castle is unusual in that, with the perimetre of 305 meters, it is far larger than normal for an Irish Castle and was constructed in piecemeal fashion over a period of 400 years. As well as being the home of the Archbishops of Dublin, it is said that parliaments were held in the great hall of the castle. In 1583 Sir Henry Sydney, the Land Deputy, settled Dutch refugees in the Castle, who repaired and extended the dwelling. By 1641 Swords Castle was chosen as a rendezvous for the Anglo-Irish families of the Pale. Currently the castle is the only fortified residence of the Archbishop of Dublin to survive in a reasonable condition. As it stands at the moment Swords Castle presents a vivid snap-shot of 15th century life, comprising a gatehouse, apartments for knights, a chapel, banqueting hall, the all-important Archbishops apartments and two large towers, one of which was the home of the area's constable and his family.
    Swords Castle was lying idle for a number of years before it was bought from the Cobbe family by Dublin County Council in 1985. The castle and the surrounding lands were acquired for the provision of the Ward River Valley Regional Park. The story of the castle before was one of neglect.

    castle2.gif The Parks Department carried out a number of studies, including a conservation study of the entire area. They then undertook a tourism study before submitting a plan to Fingal County Council in early 1995. In March 1995 a plan for the phased restoration of the castle was approved by the Council and FAS, along with the parks Department, started the work shortly afterwards. The project is being sponsored by the Swords Castle Restoration Committee.
    The council commissioned a number of historical and archaeological studies of the castle and it environs with a view to its restoration as a major cultural, educational and tourist centre, similar to Malahide and Ardgillan Castles.
    The castle contains a tourism information centre at which visitors can find out more information about the castle and its history, is open from Monday to Friday.
    Top of Page

    There is a local community festival who run an annual festival

    Occassional years they can get access to the Castle grounds and run a medieval gig with weekend knights etc and the whole shebang a proper Renaissance Fair like you get in the US and for kids. A real class act and would do it every year but the Council & Commitee wont cooperate.

    Again, a great location for the weekend market etc or Paddy's Day Parade.

    Now, I live near there and am familiar with Malahide Castle and Ardgillan Castles that are restored but are as boring a f*** IMO and if they are filling a need it is catered for. Swords Castle will never be what they are as it never was in the first place.

    Council's do sewage , roads and water and drains and are good at that sort of thing. There are other things they are not good at cos the think and act like Councils.

    Whats wrong with having it available to the local hippies and weekend warriors car boot sale etc and local community groups as an amenity.Local interest groups do things for free.

    It is stone walls around an enclosed field/park and having survived since 1315 having being built for seiges and stuff .

    Its things like that that build interest and a community and its a cool location.

    A generation have grown up in the area and would know it as a place thats always locked and will have been locked out from a great amenity and heritage location by administrators and rate collectors.

    And Ardgillan may look great but Donadea that is barely preserved is tons more fun and probably gets more use by locals etc.

    We are not the UK and would not have the money to do the whole national trust thing.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    A prob with groups like an Taisce is that they are administrators and not enthusiasts.

    Sorry, what? :confused: Do you really know anything about what An Taisce actually do?? That's some big brush you have loaded with tar.
    Swords castle, yadayada.

    Do you know of a group that has asked to run an event and has been refused, or are you just presuming that. Why don't you organise an event?
    We are not the UK and would not have the money to do the whole national trust thing


    Let me introduce you to an organisation that is the National Trust for Ireland..













    header.jpg


    An Taisce..
    The National Trust for Ireland :rolleyes:

    I see a theme here, those who want it all to be different and wonderful, but apparantly those who campaign for change, lobby for protection and try to change policy get jeered from the sidelines. :mad:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    You can call it what you like but An Taisce is far from being a National Trust for Ireland. If you want to believe that you can. It's a bit like people who think that our environment is being looked after because we have something called the Environmental Protection Agency. If you're replying to this please don't use multi-quote. :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    MadsL wrote: »
    Sorry, what? :confused: Do you really know anything about what An Taisce actually do?? That's some big brush you have loaded with tar.

    its my opinion based on my observations.

    take the Saltee Islands in private ownership of the Neale Family since the 1940's and that works

    An Taisce dont seem to generate enthusiasm or restoration etc within the means of and whats approptiate to ireland.

    Let me introduce you to an organisation that is the National Trust for Ireland..

    Prententious or wha :pac:

    It is not the National Trust and of course I do not expect it to be.
    Do you know of a group that has asked to run an event and has been refused, or are you just presuming that. Why don't you organise an event?

    Yes I do know them and asked why the event was not annual and thats what I was told.

    I cant name them as it was a private conversation and that would not be fair on anybody.

    My main point is that when you transfer "ownership" of planning and control from local communities then the can cease to be an amenity and become a monument.

    EDIT - And I am not jeering. A country like Ireland does not have the resourses and has to be more inventive in heritage preservation and use.

    Thats not controvercial at all.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    @Judgement Day
    You can call it what you like but An Taisce is far from being a National Trust for Ireland. If you want to believe that you can. It's a bit like people who think that our environment is being looked after because we have something called the Environmental Protection Agency.

    I'll dignify that piece of nonsense with a link
    http://internationaltrusts.org/membership/founder-members/

    You seem to think I'm making this up. :confused:

    It seem your replies now consist of taking issue with how I post??
    If you're replying to this please don't use multi-quote. :)

    I find it easier to respond to each point made by the poster if I do this, you clearly don't bother retracting or admitting you were incorrect, you just find something else to find fault with...and frankly I'll post how I please within the rules..thank you very much.


    @CDfm

    You mention the Saltees and I agree that the work done by the family is commendable, but what is your point?? It's quite easy to keep small island preserved as a sanctuary.

    If you want to take mainland example with greater pressures take a look at Mullaghmore in Clare;
    The impact of new rural housing in Clare is one of declamatory vulgarity. Mullaghmore alone survives, not only as an example of a successful conservation campaign (supported by An Taisce) but as a reminder that its destruction was planned with aggressive consistency by the very agencies charged with protecting it: the OPW and the various departments of arts, culture and whatever you're having yourself. Mullaghmore, in fact, is the exception which proves the rule: join An Taisce before it's too late.

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/all-good-citizens-should-join-an-taisce-before-its-too-late-500545.html
    An Taisce dont seem to generate enthusiasm or restoration etc within the means of and whats approptiate to ireland.

    I think I just showed that above that they do.

    Prententious or wha

    Really? Do you think that "De Trust Yoke" would be better :D:D
    It is not the National Trust and of course I do not expect it to be.

    So it owns property in trust for the Irish nation, but is not the (Irish) National Trust - you do understand that it isnt the (UK) National Trust. Is that what is confusing you...?
    A country like Ireland does not have the resourses and has to be more inventive in heritage preservation and use.

    Thats not controvercial at all.

    I'm not sure what you mean by inventive and not having the resources, could you explain?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    MadsL - According to you 'It's quite easy to keep small island preserved as a sanctuary.' but yet An Taisce find it hard to keep a small marsh preserved as a sanctuary?

    I'm not disagreeing that An Taisce is the self-styled National Trust for Ireland but it is failing in its duties. No need to provide anymore links either - I have probably been involved in heritage conservation longer than you and don't need any further lessons.

    The Irish Landmark Trust http://www.irishlandmark.com/ is a shining example of what An Taisce should/could be like.

    692427_3efe3bb4.jpg

    Wicklow Head Lighthouse - a Landmark Trust property.

    The Irish Landmark Trust Ltd. was founded in 1992 with a remit to save interesting and unusual 'landmark' properties throughout the whole of Ireland and to re-use them, once restored, as good quality self catering holiday accommodation. At its heart is the principle that the structure iself is of prime importance and any interventions must respect this.

    Irish Landmark is recognised as a charity, and is incorporated as a not-for-profit company in the Republic of Ireland and, separately, in Northern Ireland.

    Our buildings are varied, from lighthouses, to gatelodges, to tower houses, to school houses, to mews, which - because of their individuality, even eccentricity - are unsuitable as permanent residences. But often in remote and delightful parts of the country, they are ideal retreats for those seeking a short stay in fascinating and sensitively restored buildings.

    The benefits of our work are enjoyed by more than our visitors. The morale of a village can be lifted by the rehabilitation of its most interesting landmark building. Visitors introduce tourist revenue. Craftsmen and craftswomen are given scope to revive traditional skills. And wasteful decay or demolition gives way to the sensible recycling of Ireland's valuable architectural stock.

    Further, we see ourselves as problem solvers. Owners, private and public, with responsibility for important buildings are faced with the dual task of restoring and finding sustainable uses for them. By taking a building on lease we are enabled to restore it, and can sustain it on short-term lettings until the expiry of the lease (typically, 50 years) when the fully restored building reverts to the owner.

    To date we have restored 19 interesting and architecturally important buildings across Ireland, north and south. Funding for this work came from the ERDF, The Heritage Council, the National Millennium Committee, Udaras na Gaeltachta, the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government; and from the Environment and Heritage Services section of the Department of the Environment of Northern Ireland, the UK Heritage Lottery Fund for Northern Ireland, The Architectural Heritage Fund, and from local authorities in the regions where our properties are located. In addition, significant private funds assist both capital and administrative costs.


    Their newsletter http://www.irishlandmark.com/SupporterNews/01_Supporter_News_July_2010.pdf is a model of an inspiring production which would encourage you to donate or get involved. There is no earthly reason why An Taisce could not have been doing something similar for decades but between infighting, career building and general ineptitude they are in the doldrums. I was there but I'm not prepared to name names either.

    In Northern Ireland the UK National Trust even own a pub amongst their properties http://www.crownbar.com/ - why could An Taisce not have gone this road? Anyway, let's drop it as we aren't going to agree and nothing is going to change.
    crown-bar.jpg?w=303&h=450


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    @CDfm

    You mention the Saltees and I agree that the work done by the family is commendable, but what is your point?? It's quite easy to keep small island preserved as a sanctuary.

    If you want to take mainland example with greater pressures take a look at Mullaghmore in Clare;

    Actually it wasn't originally as the family had to challenge claims to pay rates on it as agriculrural land even though it is a nature reserve.


    Its an editorial piece by a fan and it does not really put an argument against fish farms or wind turbines -if there is one to be made.




    Really? Do you think that "De Trust Yoke" would be better :D:D

    I actually do not know, but, I think calling it the Irish National Trust is confusing as to what its powers are and function is versus the National Trust in the UK.

    So it owns property in trust for the Irish nation, but is not the (Irish) National Trust - you do understand that it isnt the (UK) National Trust. Is that what is confusing you...?

    Intentionally confused maybe.

    It should cut its cloth by its measure.


    I'm not sure what you mean by inventive and not having the resources, could you explain?

    I think it is very grandiose and at this stage should have established a niche with other state agencies. I mean, you report a squabble with Corks local authority.

    Thats hardly being on top of things.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    An Taisce is the self-styled National Trust for Ireland

    An Taisce has since inception been consistantly been lobbying for the tax status and state recognition given to other countries National Trusts, not just for itself but for all bodies involved in trust activities. Given that no trust legislation has been forthcoming, what else do you expect An Taisce to do - it can't pass legislation itself.
    find it hard to keep a small marsh preserved as a sanctuary?

    ..and I keep asking you what you see as the problem at Booterstown and you never answer that question. For the love of god, if you think there is a problem with BM then what is it!?! You saying that AT is not doing x without telling me what x is..:confused::confused::confused:

    The Irish Landmark Trust is a fantastic organisation, as are the likes of The Georgian Society, and they have a very valuable role to play in preserving Ireland's historic fabric. At the end of the day however, it is a hell of lot easier to fund raise to preserve a lovely building than it is to fight overdevelopment, one-off housing, dereliction by design, illegally granted planning permissions and the like and generally be the watchdog that An Taisce has a statatory role to perform under the Planning and Development Acts. Of course An Taisce would like to do more, doesn't that go without saying.

    Re; the crown pub - you are asking why could An Taisce not have gone this road??

    Are you now criticising An Taisce because it doesn't own a pub? :eek:

    The UK National Trust has income of £400million plus, if someone were to donate a pub of historic interest and of conservation merit then of course AT would look to see if it were viable to go down this road. But they haven't and I cannot see anyone doing it. Again your point is less than clear.
    nothing is going to change

    Not with this attitude no, you are right.


    The fact is however things have changed, quite dramatically. An Taisce has consistantly stuck it's head above the parapet to warn Ireland of the direction it is heading, despite all the ill-informed and ungrounded criticism. Even today the EU is getting tough on an issue that AT has been warning the state of for decades - the EU has had enough dillydally from the Irish State and is now levying fines of some €4k a day.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0519/septictanks.html

    To be honest, Judgement Day you sound fairly typical of a disgruntled member of any volunteer organisation, someone said something sharp to you once many years ago, you went off in a huff and have held the grudge against the organisation ever since. It seems to me that you find lots of nebulous reasons not to like the organisation, but you never give specifics when challenged. You say you have probably been involved in heritage conservation longer than me and don't need any further lessons. That's great. Which organisation do you volunteer with or support financially?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    It seems to me MadsL that it was created for a particular function and as JD says its empire building.

    It seems confused about its own role.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    CDfm wrote: »
    Actually it wasn't originally as the family had to challenge claims to pay rates on it as agriculrural land even though it is a nature reserve. .
    Fair enough, I meant that it has a very defined boundary and 'border' by nature of being an island.
    Its an editorial piece by a fan and it does not really put an argument against fish farms or wind turbines -if there is one to be made.

    Errr, I was refering to the AT property at Mullaghmore? I wasn't trying to make any arguments about fish farms or wind turbines. My point was that AT have successful fought to preserve this landscape on the mainland.
    I actually do not know, but, I think calling it the Irish National Trust is confusing as to what its powers are and function is versus the National Trust in the UK.

    Intentionally confused maybe.

    It is not called the Irish National Trust - it is "An Taisce: The National trust for Ireland" what is confusing about that? I don't think the National Trust for Jersey or
    the National Trust of Slovakia get confused or have intentional confused their names. Isn't the clue in the name. :confused:

    It should cut its cloth by its measure.

    I think it is very grandiose

    What exactly does this even mean??? AT like most charities of course "cut its cloth by its measure" - it can't spend what it doesn't have?? Can you be more specific?

    .....and at this stage should have established a niche with other state agencies. I mean, you report a squabble with Corks local authority. Thats hardly being on top of things.

    Did you actually read that article? This isn't a 'squabble', it is a legal planning process required under Irish and EU law, An Taisce has a statatory role (even though a charity - is NOT a state agency) in that legal process. An Taisce took that case because of the consistant pressure being applied to Irish town and business by profiteering developers in breach of any form of coherant retail strategy and planning on the part of the councils. Here is a quote that says it better than I can...
    Of the approx 30,000 applications nationally per year during recent years, An Taisce appealed around 300 of these to An Bord Pleanála. This is around 1% of decisions granted by local authorities. In making its decisions, An Bord Pleanála is guided and must be guided by the relevant National and EU Laws and Local, Regional or National Plans and Guidelines. Therefore, to be successful, an appeal must show that the planning authority’s decision is not correctly in compliance with these laws, plans and guidelines.

    An Taisce only takes cases where it believes that correct process has not been followed and is successful in 80% of these cases, again this is mainly because the local authority has not properly complied with its own Development Plan or Regional or National Guidelines in the first place.

    The Planning Laws and guidelines are either those of the Country that have been passed through the Dail in the usual democratic way or are EU based laws that the Country has signed up to. They are there to protect the Environment for the good of all the citizens. They are there to protect the Natural Environment on which we all rely from harm and to ensure that development is carried out in a proper and orderly fashion that will allow communities a sustainable future. They are not anti-rural, anti-development, anti-community and anti-jobs, they are there to ensure that the common good is not hijacked.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    CDfm wrote: »
    It seems to me MadsL that it was created for a particular function and as JD says its empire building.

    It seems confused about its own role.

    Empire building?? Are you for real?
    “In all but the more backward countries, organisations exist which have for their objective the protection and preservation of things of natural beauty or of human interest within their boundaries. These need protection against dilapidation, against sequestration for private ends, and in recent times against the actions of public bodies. There are other aspects too – the provision of open spaces, the care of much that is in the national interest, the prevention of disfigurement of the towns and of the countryside by injudicious building, by advertisement and by the ruthless claims of industrialism………To watch over such matters An Taisce was founded”.

    was Praeger's speech (AT Founder) in 1948 - AT has exactly the same remit today.


  • Registered Users Posts: 149 ✭✭eh2010


    Still the most thorough book on Ireland's country houses is
    Burke's Guide to Country Houses: Ireland written by Mark Bence-Jones in 1978

    It's not the easiest to find, and there was a second release with an addendum of more houses that Bence-Jones has omitted during the first write up. Several owners had written to him complaining of being forgotten. But the key to it is that many of the houses he visited were still standing, and being lived in by their original owners, and there are many photographs he was given of houses before they were burned during the '20s or demolished during the 60's, 70's and 80's

    After that you are looking at the handful that have been done predominantly by members of the Irish Georgian Society, who thankfully recorded many of the bigger houses that exist.
    A few examples are;

    Irish House and Castles; Hon. Desmond Guinnes & William Ryan
    Great Houses of Ireland; Hugh Montgomery-Massingberd & Christophen Sykes
    Great Irish Houses; Jacqueline O'Brian & Hon. Desmond Guinness
    Irish Gardens; Madame Olda Fitzgerald
    The Big House in Ireland; Valerie Pakenham
    The Houses of Ireland; Brian de Breffny and Rosemary ffolliott
    The Noble Dwellings of Ireland; John Fitzmaurice Mills
    In An Irish House; Sybil Connolly
    The Irish Georgian Society's 50th Anniversary Book of Irish Houses
    Turtle Bunbury's Irish Country Houses (covers smaller houses)

    Most of the above cover the same houses, namely the largest and more grand houses or the most famous ones, rather than smaller country houses or quieter families, so you'll regularly come across:
    Castletown, Birr, Slane, Clandeboye, Mount Stewart, Tullynally, Curraghmore, Bantry, Florence Court, Leixlip, Westport, Lismore, Russborough & Powerscourt

    Slightly different ones are;
    The Lost Houses of Ireland; Count Randal McDonnell
    Tarquin Blake's Abandoned Ireland (based on his website- really excellent!!)
    both of which record houses which were burned/demolished etc.

    Hope I haven't overloaded you with too much!

    Sim


    Ok . Which one is the best one to buy?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    eh2010 wrote: »
    Ok . Which one is the best one to buy?

    What purpose do you want the book to serve? Burke's guide is the best one to tell you where to find houses but some of the others would be better for photographs and architectural details.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    eh2010 wrote: »
    Ok . Which one is the best one to buy?

    The Tarquin Blake book -cos he posts here :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 149 ✭✭eh2010


    CDfm wrote: »
    The Tarquin Blake book -cos he posts here :D

    I have that one. I'm looking for a book with good photographs and architectural details on many of the Big Houses around Ireland and is reasonably up to date if possible. Which one is best?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,201 ✭✭✭ongarboy


    I know I'm responding to an out of date post but Ballyfin house is most certainly not abandoned. I had the great pleasure of visiting there this summer and can tell you it is absolutely stunning. It has been fully restored to it's former glory and is operating as a high end exclusive hotel (with premium prices to match). It is a shame that such a beautiful place is not open to the public but better restored and privately owned then left to rot like so many unfortunate places around the country. The website below will give you a clue to what it looks like now. www.ballyfin.com
    nelly1912 wrote: »
    ballyfin house in co. Laois, probably the finest neo classical house in the country, used to belong to some relgious order went up fpr sale, offered to the government who passed it over. this fine house is now lying empty half way through a conversion to a luxury hotel which has been abandoned, its a crime..

    BALLYFIN3.jpg


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  • Registered Users Posts: 149 ✭✭eh2010


    Did any one see Nationwide on Friday?. They showed a Castle that had been restored. It was very nice. Anyone know of other Castles/Big Houses around the country that had been restored from ruins? Jeremy Irons orange castle ! :eek: comes to mind. Any others?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    eh2010 wrote: »
    Did any one see Nationwide on Friday?. They showed a Castle that had been restored. It was very nice. Anyone know of other Castles/Big Houses around the country that had been restored from ruins? Jeremy Irons orange castle ! :eek: comes to mind. Any others?
    Is this the one? http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/home-garden/will-of-irons-inside-jeremy-irons-west-cork-castle-1549241.html

    castle64.jpghttp://www.jeremy-irons.com/press/archive/56.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 149 ✭✭eh2010




    Thats the one. Couldn't remember the name of it. Anyway do you know of others that have been restored?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Killua Castle nr.Clonmellon, Co.Westmeath is being restored - gradually - full story here: http://archiseek.com/2010/back-from-brink-thanks-to-bankers-bonus/

    killuacastle.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 985 ✭✭✭mountainy man


    Ardtarmon castle, near Lissadell Co. Sligo, restored by a german family in the 80's i think, run as a guest house.

    http://youtu.be/4gHmC6-N4mc


  • Registered Users Posts: 149 ✭✭eh2010


    The castle on Nationwide was Killahara castle

    castle7-199x300.jpg


    Theres also Brackloon Castle

    Brackloon-castle-333x500.jpg


    And Barryscourt

    http://www.irelandforvisitors.com/gallery/blcasph_barryscourt.htm


  • Registered Users Posts: 149 ✭✭eh2010


    Good map of the landed estates of ireland

    http://landedestates.nuigalway.ie:8080/LandedEstates/jsp/map.jsp


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 267 ✭✭dmcronin


    There's a really nice Art Deco style cinema in Rathkeale, looks shabby now though.
    Not a lot of Art Deco stuff around.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Art_deco_cinema,_Rathkeale,_Co._Limerick_-_geograph.org.uk_-_581939.jpg


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    dmcronin wrote: »
    There's a really nice Art Deco style cinema in Rathkeale, looks shabby now though.
    Not a lot of Art Deco stuff around.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Art_deco_cinema,_Rathkeale,_Co._Limerick_-_geograph.org.uk_-_581939.jpg

    A real classic bit of cinema Art Deco, such a shame that it's in a terrible state.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    eh2010 wrote: »
    Theres also Brackloon Castle

    Brackloon-castle-333x500.jpg

    They've done a fine restoration. Is that smooth finish on the walls faithful to the time it was built? I like it. I wonder what it looks like inside?

    I did some searches online and I found an ad from 2008 that described it as a ruin. (its number nine):

    http://www.intlistings.com/articles/2008/want-to-live-in-a-castle-10-great-options-for-250k-or-less/


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