Who is responsible for the current situation in Northern Ireland?

Éomer of Rohan · 12-07-2003 12:21pm #1

It is the 12th of July up here.

I think that thinking back over the past four hundred odd years since the Elizabethan plantation, someone has to be accountable for the present situation in Northern Ireland.

I think that this thread should really hammer that out and I realise that this may infringe slightly on politics but this is from a histiorical perspective incorporating everything from Dermait Mac Murrough to Gerry Adams.

As a thesis, I will suggest that the Stormont government, their conservative politics ansd repressive tactics are responsible for the violence, bloodshed and brutality of the last 81 years.

Let's qualify one thing; I am not nationalist or Unionist. I am not Catholic or Protestant.

People, let the mayhem begin.

sceptre · 12-07-2003 2:56pm

I'm partly making this post to head off an argument at the pass so to speak.

If there had never been an Ulster plantation the problems wouldn't have arisen. So obviously the original cause of the problems is that unlike other Irish attempted plantations, the Ulster one was actually well organised. Hence the Brits.

Going back a little further, if the English had never invaded, there wouldn't have been a plantation in the first place. Hence Diarmuid Mc Murrough is to blame

Obviously using the same logic we can trace back the cause to the first settlers to reach Europe. Which would be silly. So let's do what I assume Eomar wants and deal with the problem onle over the past 400 years.

I think you're right to an extent in putting the responsibility squarely at the door of the Unionist party in the period of say 1910-1960. Ulster as a Protestant state for Protestants resulted in the setting up of the civil rights movement in the first place. When that was partly hijacked by paramilitary groups and also when some people became disenchanted with peaceful protests due to a lack of protests and had sympathy for paramilitary means the problem moved from a few older types dreaming of a free Ireland for Irish people and into the realm of a younger group who saw what a Protestant state meant for Catholics. Some like Austin Currie went the democratic route. Some like Gerry Adams didn't (at least not in the 60s and 70s) (obviously their experiences and backgrounds were slightly different). The corrupt nature of the NI establishment (both in day to day activities like housing and long term corruption in gerrmandering[1]) is one single thing that had it changed probably would have resulted in a problem that was far smaller. the attitude of the Irish government throughout the history of the State up till the late 60s obviously comes into play as well. Without the intransigence of the hardcore Unionists the activity would have been limited to the dreamers of Irish dancers at the Ballymena crossroads though - the IRA was basically dead as an organisation by 1962.

(obviously the ultimate responsibility for the "troubles" lies with the people who themselves decided to pick up guns and use them but I'm leaving that out of the equation to find a causal factor)

[1]It's the odd thing about the word "gerrymander". Although it's a US term in reference to a US district, you'd be forgiven for thinking it's an irish word with the amount of well, gerrymandering that went on up there and the resultant usage of the word.

(oh yeah, just for reference my background is as a southern type who was baptised in a Catholic church. As far as I'm concerned the UK can keep the north-east part of this island as long as civil rights are maintained. Yeah, I know, I don't live there)

Éomer of Rohan · 12-07-2003 3:17pm

I just wanted to start things off.

I firmly believe that, given that the IRA was firmly dead as a military organisation by 1965, under the Marxist leadership of Goulding and what became the stickies (Officials), the reasons for the resurgence and subsequent violence are Unionist seige mentality and the idea that James Craig so eloquently phrased "A protestant parliament for a protestant people" and the declining ability of the Catholic population of N.I. to stand by after being educated properly under the 1944-48 Welfare and Education reform bills and be persecuted, made second class citizens as I doubt few will deny.

I have a question though, in light of the previous post though. Given that the PIRA in 1969 was formed to be a defensive organisation, can blame be laid at their door for the atrocities that both sides committed following the explosion of august?

popinfresh · 13-07-2003 2:26pm

All three of those options are responsible for the troubles in the north at some stage during history. At first it was the British planters, not necessarily because they came to Ireland, but cause they treated the Irish badly. Then around the 1900's the republicans were to blame. Home rule would have been good enough. The British weren't as oppressive as they had been in the years past. And the only reason independence is necessary is if you are being seriously opressed. And then the loyalists are to blame for the current situation (which is why i voted for them) As said above that James Craig was a disgrace. "A protestent government for a prodestant people" It was thick ignorant cúnts like this who are to blame for the divide in northern ireland in the 70's.

Villain · 18-07-2003 5:25pm

Originally posted by sceptre

If there had never been an Ulster plantation the problems wouldn't have arisen.

Thats where this argument should have finished because if it hadn't taken place there wouldn't be any unionists or republicans.

loismustdie · 23-07-2003 1:29pm

at this stage everyone of them is to blame but ultimately it's the engish

PeterODonnell · 31-07-2003 6:09pm

Eomer of Rohan, just a minor correction. It wasn't "Elizabethan". You're thinking of the Munster Plantation. The Ulster Plantation occurred under James I and Charles I, before mostly collapsing in the West of Ulster in the 1641 Rebellion, after which it was restarted by Cromwell in 1649. I feel that Unionist resistance to change is with us again.

sceptre · 02-08-2003 4:31pm

Originally posted by irish1
Thats where this argument should have finished because if it hadn't taken place there wouldn't be any unionists or republicans.

That's why I included:

Obviously using the same logic we can trace back the cause to the first settlers to reach Europe. Which would be silly. So let's do what I assume Eomar wants and deal with the problem onle over the past 400 years.

Manach · 02-08-2003 9:18pm

Naturally enough everything is the fault of the English, including the weather

.
Still, for the current state of the North, it is. They had the chance in 1912 not to be intimadated by Unionist bullying, their covenant and the illegal importation of arms. By stating clearly the democratic will of the UK was Home Rule to Ireland. If this had been achieved, there would have been no nationalist resentment and an all Ireland parliament in Dublin would be established.

The Beer Baron · 25-08-2003 9:27pm

Dermot MacMurrough? Or that slapper...and Strongbow...
no no, we'll leave that one alone, since my bloodline stems from that era (apparently) so I suppose were it not for MacMurrough I would- horror of horrors- been born a frenchman!

I suppose you could blame the Irish themselves for turning their backs on Parnell and thus ending the cause of Home Rule.

I suppose you could blame the English for turning Presbeterians (spelling?) and Catholics (both 2nd class citizens) against each other. The old divide and conquer tactic that has served them so well.

You could blame the British government for their zero-tolerance stance during the Troubles.
Or the IRA for antagonising them.

Certainly you could blame them lot.

Or the other lot. The continuity lot, real lot...

Or them lot. :mad:

You could blame the Dáil for their complete incompetance- which is also easy but true to a point.

You could blame Al Queda- since that's the most popular one @ the mo.

Well, I really blame the Brits.
I mean you have to don't you?!

There's a lot of people to blame, haven't we spent 800 years of blaming tho?

I blame the parents.
I don't mean to insert that hackneyed phrase just for my own personal amusement (well I do really) I mean- perhaps if more was done to breed out the hatred instead of compounding it with each and every generation. But this is as much a global problem as it is an Irish one.

Who is responsible for the current situation in Northern Ireland?

Who is responsible for the fighting, violence and death in N.I. ? 24 votes

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