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Why is China an atheist nation despite being poor?

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  • 13-07-2020 5:59pm
    #1
    mr_fegelien
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭


    There is an undoubted correlation between wealth and religiosity (with exceptions like America). The wealthier a nation is, the less they believe in God. Even the average catholic in Ireland would be far more liberal in their beliefs than an protestant African (from my experience of my religious family).

    Why is this? And why is China atheist?


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    #2
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,245 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    You are generalising.

    Countries (save maybe the Vatican) don't have religions, people do.

    Income-wise, China is a mid-ranking country.

    Authoritarian states dislike alternative power structures. Certain religions, e.g. Roman Catholicism have been antagonistic towards communism.

    You might read up on Religion in China and its nuances: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_China


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    #3
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Quality of OP's threads is going in wrong direction. First World Attitude there Feggy. Pity the Uigher. - Indegenous Chinese Muslim population.


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    #4
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,231 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Chinese state, or Chinese people?


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    #5
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    I tend to agree with Marx on "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people". If you are poor and have little else to live for at times, religion offers hope, albeit false hope from an atheist point of view.

    Christianity is on the rise in China after centuries worth of proselytizing by various Christian groups. Staying the the theme's of both religion and opium, look up "carving up the Chinese melon" on google some time. China have rather good reason to be distrustful of the West.


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    #6
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,231 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Quality of OP's threads is going in wrong direction.
    You use this word ‘quality’. What do you mean?

    :pac:


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    #7
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    endacl wrote: »
    You use this word ‘quality’. What do you mean?

    :pac:

    State Tolerance would be better I suppose.

    To the sound of Muslim prayers


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    #8
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    mr_fegelien wrote: »
    The wealthier a nation is, the less they believe in God.

    Like Saudi Arabia?
    Qatar?


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    #9
    one world order
    Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭one world order


    When economic wealth increases many people take pleasure in their worldly possessions and turn away from God. Money is the root of a lot of evil in this world and the devil is aware of our weakness. Western society is based on Christian values such as liberty, freedom and justice. Without those Christian values in western democracy, the west would not have done so well. But as God provided for us, we will now be entering difficult times as greed, pride, envy and lust got the better of us and we will have to face God’s wrath.


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    #10
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,995 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    mr_fegelien wrote: »
    There is an undoubted correlation between wealth and religiosity (with exceptions like America). The wealthier a nation is, the less they believe in God. Even the average catholic in Ireland would be far more liberal in their beliefs than an protestant African (from my experience of my religious family).

    Why is this? And why is China atheist?

    Your starting point is wrong, therefore your questions are void.


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    #11
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    China’s not poor. Vast majority of the citizens are very poor, because It’s a communist country and communism imposed on a country has proved over and over that most people will end up impoverished.
    Atheism goes hand in hand with communism. Atheism/misery/communism/poverty.


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    #12
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    one world order wrote: »
    When economic wealth increases many people take pleasure in their worldly possessions and turn away from God. Money is the root of a lot of evil in this world and the devil is aware of our weakness. Western society is based on Christian values such as liberty, freedom and justice. Without those Christian values in western democracy, the west would not have done so well. But as God provided for us, we will now be entering difficult times as greed, pride, envy and lust got the better of us and we will have to face God’s wrath.

    And here was me thinking the West got wealthy by rucking up to other people's lands with a cross in one hand and a sword in the other to do a spot of asset stripping, slave trading, genocide, and other assorted Imperialism 101 tactics.
    All instances of greed, pride,envy and lust as approved of by the Christian god.

    Tell me - are we about to be punished for no longer exporting Christian approved greed, pride,envy and lust ?


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    #13
    one world order
    Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭one world order


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    And here was me thinking the West got wealthy by rucking up to other people's lands with a cross in one hand and a sword in the other to do a spot of asset stripping, slave trading, genocide, and other assorted Imperialism 101 tactics.
    All instances of greed, pride,envy and lust as approved of by the Christian god.

    Tell me - are we about to be punished for no longer exporting Christian approved greed, pride,envy and lust ?

    You should revisit your history and then tell the truth.


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    #14
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    one world order wrote: »
    You should revisit your history and then tell the truth.

    Had a quick revisit and even the toppled statues of slave traders agree with me.
    They all say the absolutely Imperialism was a Western get-rich quick scheme and is, in fact, the only reason there are statues of them in the first place for us to learn history from.
    Cecil Rhodes statue also agreed, as did Columbus statues.


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    #15
    Iscreamkone
    Registered Users Posts: 709 ✭✭✭Iscreamkone


    one world order wrote: »
    When economic wealth increases many people take pleasure in their worldly possessions and turn away from God. Money is the root of a lot of evil in this world and the devil is aware of our weakness. Western society is based on Christian values such as liberty, freedom and justice. Without those Christian values in western democracy, the west would not have done so well. But as God provided for us, we will now be entering difficult times as greed, pride, envy and lust got the better of us and we will have to face God’s wrath.

    “Go sell crazy someplace else, we’re all stocked up here.”


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    #16
    one world order
    Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭one world order


    Iscreamkone wrote: »
    “Go sell crazy someplace else, we’re all stocked up here.”

    It’s not too late for salvation. If you die now, and haven’t accepted Christ, that’s it. You will be separated from God for eternity. Don’t be deceived by this world. The devil is the god of this world.


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    #17
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users Posts: 16,109 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    splinter65 wrote: »
    China’s not poor. Vast majority of the citizens are very poor, because It’s a communist country and communism imposed on a country has proved over and over that most people will end up impoverished.
    Atheism goes hand in hand with communism. Atheism/misery/communism/poverty.

    Atheists are the happiest lot! We know we're not going to hell.

    Dunno about the others, but I'd be more inclined to social democracy myself.




    Atheism/misery, who'd have thunk... :D


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    #18
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    Atheists are the happiest lot! We know we're not going to hell.

    Dunno about the others, but I'd be more inclined to social democracy myself.




    Atheism/misery, who'd have thunk... :D

    If the religious can't cling to the belief that atheists are miserable then what can they cling to?
    Lord knows they haven't anything else.
    🀨


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    #19
    one world order
    Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭one world order


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    If the religious can't cling to the belief that atheists are miserable then what can they cling to?
    Lord knows they haven't anything else.
    🀨

    A true Christian does not want someone else to be miserable. It's a realisation that we have a sinful nature and in need of God's help to make the right decisions in life.


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    #20
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    one world order wrote: »
    When economic wealth increases many people take pleasure in their worldly possessions and turn away from God. Money is the root of a lot of evil in this world and the devil is aware of our weakness. Western society is based on Christian values such as liberty, freedom and justice. Without those Christian values in western democracy, the west would not have done so well. But as God provided for us, we will now be entering difficult times as greed, pride, envy and lust got the better of us and we will have to face God’s wrath.
    one world order wrote: »
    It’s not too late for salvation. If you die now, and haven’t accepted Christ, that’s it. You will be separated from God for eternity. Don’t be deceived by this world. The devil is the god of this world.
    one world order wrote: »
    A true Christian does not want someone else to be miserable. It's a realisation that we have a sinful nature and in need of God's help to make the right decisions in life.

    Mod

    one world order, please reacquaint yourself with the A&A charter in particular this section:
    3. While posting of controversial questions to stimulate debate is acceptable, soap boxing, i.e constant repetition of a single viewpoint while refusing to entertain discussion on it, is both disruptive and annoying, and will not be tolerated. You are expected to contribute something other than placard proclamations.
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054860288

    You are more than welcome to discuss, debate, argue, and within reason bicker as long as there is at least an element of discussion. What is not welcome is jumping into a thread to proselytize and/or make declarations of your own personal faith which is what you are currently doing.

    Do not discuss this in thread, if you have any question PM.


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    #21
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,907 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Atheism goes hand in hand with communism. Atheism/misery/communism/poverty.

    The vast majority of communists are atheists, but the vast majority of atheists are not communists.

    Your post is like saying that the vast majority of paedophiles are men, therefore the vast majority of men are paedophiles.

    You'll find that the most atheistic countries in the world (China has lots of confuscianism, buddhism, and a fair bit of christianity) are quite wealthy European social democracies.

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #22
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,907 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    one world order wrote: »
    Money is the root of a lot of evil in this world and the devil is aware of our weakness.

    Funny how churches are always looking for money then, isn't it?
    Western society is based on Christian values such as liberty, freedom and justice.

    And precious little of those three were in evidence when the catholic church held sway here.

    one world order wrote: »
    If you die now, and haven’t accepted Christ, that’s it. You will be separated from God for eternity.

    Can I be separated from something if it doesn't exist?

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #23
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,056 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    smacl wrote: »
    I tend to agree with Marx on "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people". If you are poor and have little else to live for at times, religion offers hope, albeit false hope from an atheist point of view.

    Christianity is on the rise in China after centuries worth of proselytizing by various Christian groups. Staying the the theme's of both religion and opium, look up "carving up the Chinese melon" on google some time. China have rather good reason to be distrustful of the West.
    But the question raised by the OP isn't about Christianity, but about theism in general. China has alwasy been a densely-poplulated country where most people are poor. And China has always been a country with low levels of theism. The advent of Christianity is a relatively recent part of the story and, if anything, the growth of Christianity in China has been associated with a rise in general levels of prosperity.

    The OP's basic point is that China, with the US, are counter-examples to the thesis that irreligion and prosperity are connected. (The Marxist thesis, let's call it, since he expressed it so well, although obviously you don't have to be a Marxist to accept it.)

    That basic point is correct, although I suggest that the appropriate response may not be to look for an explanation of why China and the US don't follow this rule, but rather to question how accurate the rule is in the first place. Maybe irreligion and prosperity are not so closely connected as all that, after all.

    I think we also need to distinguish between theism and religion. At least a part of the reason why China ranks high on lists of "atheist countries" is that traditional Chinese religions tend to be nontheist, focussing on veneration of acestors and respect for values like wisdom and tradition. Nontheist forms of Buddhism are also a signficant feature of the Chinese religious landscape.
    China may be more atheist than it is irreligious.


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    #24
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    China may be more atheist than it is irreligious.

    I think China tends to be more polytheistic in the broadest sense of the word, in that many Chinese people will subscribe to multiple religious beliefs even though those belief systems might demand exclusivity. Not unusual to see a shrine to the Kitchen God (which is incidentally a Taoist deity even though Taoism is largely non-theistic) sharing a room with a Christian cross on the wall and Buddha sitting on the mantelpiece. Historically, the Chinese also tend to be very superstitious and I often go the impression that religion was an extension of this superstition. If you read the likes of 'The romance of the Three Kingdoms' or 'The story of the stone' they are laden with prophesy, fatalism, and the importance of luck. Even today at any significant social event you'll see an abundance of red envelopes being passed about and statues to all sorts of deities spotted around the place. Personally, I love the richness of complexity about it.

    I think deep and fragmented superstition is common to many peasant cultures where syncretism is a tool used by larger organised belief systems to absorb these into their own religion and gain followers as a result. In China it didn't quite work, partially due to scale but also that foreign religions and foreigners in general were treated as hostile on numerous occasions. This was true long before the rise of communism, e.g. Christian missionaries were slaughtered during the Boxer rebellion.


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    #25
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,056 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Yup. Christianity has generally had very low penetration in East Asia, in marked distinction to its penetration in, say, Africa during the same period. And of course there are both historical and cultural factors that we can point to account for this.

    But to get a handle on this it's important to make a couple of distinctions. "Christianity" =/= "religion"; a society can be very resistant to Christianity and at the same time very religious. And "religion" =/= "theism"; a society can be quite religious and yet not very theistic.

    It's also important to avoid thinking in binary terms. Coming at this from a Christian background (as wel all do on this board, regardless of whether we identify as "Christian" or not) we tend to conflate religion with faith, and to define religion in terms of what people believe. But faith may be a minor aspect of other religions, which may be much more focussed on how we should live rather than what we believe. A religion may be associated with particular beliefs, but adherence to them may not be such a big deal in terms of that religion as Christian beliefs are in terms of Christianity. It's perfectly possible to be Jewish, or Buddhist, or Confucian, and not to be particular interested in what a statement like "God exists" or "gods exist" means. A Confucian might, e.g,. be not particularly interested in the theistic traditions/aspects of Confucianism, or might be a little bit theist but largely nontheist. And that can be kind of hard for people who see all religions as, basically, variations on Christianity to wrap their heads around.


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    #26
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    It's perfectly possible to be Jewish, or Buddhist, or Confucian, and not to be particular interested in what a statement like "God exists" or "gods exist" means.

    I would say the exact same is true of Christianity, with more zealous Christians (and contrary atheists for that matter) denouncing other Christians as not 'real' Christians because they don't pay much heed to their religion. I strongly suspect most people we would consider to be of one religion or another are no more than nominally religious. They consider themselves part of their religion but give very little heed to religion on a day to day basis.


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    #27
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,056 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    smacl wrote: »
    I would say the exact same is true of Christianity, with more zealous Christians (and contrary atheists for that matter) denouncing other Christians as not 'real' Christians because they don't pay much heed to their religion. I strongly suspect most people we would consider to be of one religion or another are no more than nominally religious. They consider themselves part of their religion but give very little heed to religion on a day to day basis.
    The differenc is, though, that in terms of Christianity a lack of faith is a serious problem, whereas in terms of Judaism or Confucianism it isn't. The suggestion that someone who doesn't believe this or that theological proposition is only a "nominal Christian", that they "don't pay much heed to their religion", etc, has some force (depending on what the proposition is, of course). But this would be much less true, or not true at all, of many other religions.


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    #28
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    The differenc is, though, that in terms of Christianity a lack of faith is a serious problem, whereas in terms of Judaism or Confucianism it isn't. The suggestion that someone who doesn't believe this or that theological proposition is only a "nominal Christian", that they "don't pay much heed to their religion", etc, has some force (depending on what the proposition is, of course). But this would be much less true, or not true at all, of many other religions.

    A serious problem for who though? I could see it being a serious problem for the church as an organisation but not so much for the person who identifies as Christian but doesn't pay much attention to religion beyond that. More difficult for the wannabe casual Muslim, where the regular call to prayer is more awkward to duck out of in many societies.

    By 'nominal Christian' I'm referring to someone who identifies as Christian, e.g. they put Christian on the census form and would say they're a Christian if asked, but don't really bother much with religion beyond major events such as weddings, Christenings etc...


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    #29
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    smacl wrote: »
    China have rather good reason to be distrustful of the West.
    China has equally good reason to be distrustful of christianity:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion


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    #30
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    robindch wrote: »
    China has equally good reason to be distrustful of christianity:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion

    Ah, but were the Taipings 'real' Christians? :P


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    #31
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,056 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    smacl wrote: »
    A serious problem for who though?
    For people who take Christianity seriously. Christianity itself stresses the centrality and significance of faith, so having little faith or a weak faith or faith only in some of the central tenets of Christianity but not in others is, from a Christian perspective, a very serious limitation of your Christianity. But other religions place less or even no emphasis on faith, and so having little faith does not compromise your adherence to or identification with the religion.
    smacl wrote: »
    By 'nominal Christian' I'm referring to someone who identifies as Christian, e.g. they put Christian on the census form and would say they're a Christian if asked, but don't really bother much with religion beyond major events such as weddings, Christenings etc...
    Mmm. Are you implicitly identifying placing collective religious practice - e.g. going to church - at the centre of an authentically Christian identity? From an external perspective, this is a commonly-used metric because it's relatively easily measurable. But from the point of view of the teachings and tenets of Christianity itself, it's a comparatively minor matter. There's little or nothing in any of the gospels about going to church and, while Paul mentions it, sort of, he doesn't identify it as particularly important compared to other behaviours that he urges much more forcefully. And different Christian denominations also attach more or less importance to regular churchgoing; do we say that some of those denominations are less Christian than others as a result?


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