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Kids eh.

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  • 10-04-2019 1:49pm
    #1
    auspicious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭


    Charles Ingles wrote: »
    This vegan craze has to stop my daughter has been caught up in this "cult" her health is suffering she looks desperate her personality has completely changed

    You didn't give her age but if young try to ensure she is not watching online vids of animals being killed. It can have a pretty detrimental impact. You may have to tiptoe around it a bit because if you ask her outright, she will go look. It's too much at a young age.
    If you are worried about her health than you need to educate both of you on well rounded plant nutrition/meals. It's not hard.
    In my opinion don't force her to eat meat if it turns her off. There is no essential nutrient in meat that you cannot get from plants. I can't imagine someone forcing me to eat dog or cat meat.
    Vegan smoothies are great. Delicious and healthy. Make these with her and she'll appreciate you more for it.

    https://www.kidspot.com.au/kitchen/recipes/collection/vegan-dinner-recipes-for-kids


    https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/meat-or-beans-what-will-you-have-part-ll-beans

    Good luck.


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    #2
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Yeah kids eh :rolleyes:

    Charles here is an article that I reckon could be of help to the current impasse. It details that approx 84 % of those who turn vegan or vegetarian will go back to eating a normal diet.

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/animals-and-us/201412/84-vegetarians-and-vegans-return-meat-why

    The articles details the story of the authors own 18 year old daughter who also went back to eating meat etc

    Chances yours will be fine in the end. ;)


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    #3
    auspicious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious


    In relation to the article by Herzog:

    As the daughter confessed in her letter, her main reason for giving up meat at the age of thirteen was not the animal welfare issue nor the carbon footprint but it was just to be different in her small village. At that age her rebellious streak and need to be unique called for her to stand out from the crowd , "..my motives weren’t entirely pure, giving up meat certainly made me different..".
    She always felt hungry even after large meals. This is an indication of an underlying problem: most probably a leptin resistance where which a feeling of satiation does not occur. This can be addressed with simple dietary changes.

    The study by the Humane Research Council was conducted by Faunalytics Research, and on FR's site main page thier goal states to "help people help animals by providing essential research and resources to be more effective and save more animal lives".
    The purpose of this 2014 study was to identify recidivism amongst vegans and vegetarians ( recidivism simply means a tendency to reoffend; and that of course means it's compilers view meat consumption as offensive ) and it's results helped major farmed animal advocacy groups create better outreach strategies.
    One of the studies main conclusions, and stated in the article was "Vegans are less likely to backslide than vegetarians".
    That was five years ago and obviously the social justice movement for animal ethics has come a long long way. It has grown by as much as 600% in some countries in the last few years alone and this should continue exponentially.
    It also concluded: Compared to current vegetarian/vegans, ex-vegetarians tended to be older, more conservative, and more likely to be traditional Christians.

    In current times there is generally not only one vegan in the village.
    ;)


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    #4
    Effects
    Registered Users Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭Effects


    gozunda wrote: »
    84 % of those who turn vegan or vegetarian will go back to eating a normal diet.

    What's a normal diet?


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    #5
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Effects wrote: »
    What's a normal diet?

    "Normal" refers to the mean, median, and mode of a normal, or Gaussian, distribution or what most people do within a given population. Definition of "normal": relating to, involving, or being a normal curve or normal distribution.

    "Because normalcy refers to the population mean, it varies with the population of interest. But once you define the population of interest, e.g. all persons in the state of Wyoming in 2009, then you can determine the normal diet for this population, which simply is the most common diet within this population"


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    #6
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    But the normal diet in Ireland also means the average person is overweight, should that be considered normal?
    To me calling overweight people normal sounds wrong and may even be dangerous.


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    #7
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    auspicious wrote: »
    In relation to the article by Herzog ...

    In current times there is generally not only one vegan in the village.

    Not sure there is a point there?. Article simply there as a possible resource for the poster detailing child with vegan diet issues / concerns

    As to your point about 'village' vegans within the context of the article (before I get grilled on that btw) - the given figure of there being only one or very low numbers of vegans in the 'village' holds true imo certainly amongst family, friends and acquaintances I know well. Vegetarians yes. Vegans no. Statistically numbers remain very low - Google search gives 1 - 2 %. Other than that I've no idea.


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    #8
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    tuxy wrote: »
    But the normal diet in Ireland also means the average person is overweight, should that be considered normal?
    To me calling overweight people normal sounds wrong and may even be dangerous.

    So by virtue of living in Ireland you saying the 'average' person is overweight?

    And people who are 'overweight' are not 'normal'?

    Interesting logic.

    I believe you may also have just assumed the nationality and / or country of residence of the poster in question btw.


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    #9
    auspicious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious


    gozunda wrote: »
    Not sure thersxacpoint there or not.

    Let me know when you finish editing. I may reply to you.
    gozunda wrote: »
    Yeah kids eh :rolleyes:

    Chances yours will be fine in the end. ;)
    auspicious wrote: »
    One of the studies main conclusions, and stated in the article was "Vegans are less likely to backslide than vegetarians".


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    #10
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    auspicious wrote: »
    Let me know when you finish editing. I may reply to you.

    Dodgy keyboard which had an accident with a mug of tea. It can be somewhat random.

    There's quite a few conclusions tbh in that article. The full text of the one you picked out was.
    Vegans are less like to backslide than vegetarians. While 86% of vegetarians returned to meat, only 70% of vegans did.

    70% remains a significant figure imo.

    Cheers but no need to reply. Article simply there for poster If they wish to read it. I'll let them make up their own mind. Thanks.


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    #11
    Unearthly
    Registered Users Posts: 7,983 ✭✭✭Unearthly


    That figure doesn't surprise me. Here are a few issues I've noticed since going vegan.

    YouTube influencers - there are a huge amount of influencers out there with incredibly high subscriptions that advocate for a raw vegan diet. Science is not on the side of raw vegan diets and there is no reason to be so restrictive. These influencers then recommend a daily diet but you will find the calorie count is too low, and lacking the nutrients for a balanced diet. This causes people to crash and seek a calorie dense food for recovery

    Also a lot of these influencers seem to be deceptive in their practice and just trying to get clicks and money. One was caught out recently eating fish on camera. Problem is that her followers didn't follow her because they believe in veganism, it was because she had a YouTube profile that pandered to the Kim Kardashian generation of selfies, and celebrity worship and do whatever she recommends.

    Also I think a lot of people are just poor cooks. They want ready made meals, kitchens are now getting smaller in houses, and they don't know what type of foods are rich in protein etc.

    Then some people will fail because of convenience and pressure from family and friends. I was at a wedding recently and was challenged at the table about my eating habits. Some people hate that and shy away from it.


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    #12
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,848 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Unearthly wrote: »
    That figure doesn't surprise me. Here are a few issues I've noticed since going vegan.

    YouTube influencers - there are a huge amount of influencers out there with incredibly high subscriptions that advocate for a raw vegan diet. Science is not on the side of raw vegan diets and there is no reason to be so restrictive. These influencers then recommend a daily diet but you will find the calorie count is too low, and lacking the nutrients for a balanced diet. This causes people to crash and seek a calorie dense food for recovery

    there are a couple of channels that do reaction videos to these people, its amusing in some ways but sad if these "influencers" are making young girls in particular make bad choices especially when their bodies are still maturing.
    If anyone is giving radical diet advice, the least credible are going to be young twenty somethings who are going to be bullet proof in terms of health anyway.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #13
    Unearthly
    Registered Users Posts: 7,983 ✭✭✭Unearthly


    silverharp wrote: »
    there are a couple of channels that do reaction videos to these people, its amusing in some ways but sad if these "influencers" are making young girls in particular make bad choices especially when their bodies are still maturing.
    If anyone is giving radical diet advice, the least credible are going to be young twenty somethings who are going to be bullet proof in terms of health anyway.

    Then the people are actually qualified to speak about these things - doctors, have very little subscribers or following but these are middle aged men so don't have the appeal of the masses


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    #14
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    Compared to the time that research was done the world is hugely more vegan and vegetarian friendly, and that is increasing by the day. It removes a lot of the social and eating problems. In the end it is convenience and acceptance that will make people continue things.


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    #15
    Effects
    Registered Users Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭Effects


    gozunda wrote: »
    So by virtue of living in Ireland you saying the 'average' person is overweight?
    And people who are 'overweight' are not 'normal'?

    Rather than saying that overweight people aren't normal, it makes more sense to say they are unhealthy.

    But being overweight is being normalised, which isn't good for society in general.


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    #16
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Effects wrote: »
    Rather than saying that overweight people aren't normal, it makes more sense to say they are unhealthy.
    But being overweight is being normalised, which isn't good for society in general.

    None of that reply made any sense. However I believe the main problem with that particular statement is that it's erroneous but also insulting to an entire nation and to those who may be overweight.

    And that's the problem when people attempt to use statistical descriptors without knowing what they mean. Unqualified medical assumptions are also not helpful imo.


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    #17
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Tar.Aldarion wrote: »
    Compared to the time that research was done the world is hugely more vegan and vegetarian friendly, and that is increasing by the day. It removes a lot of the social and eating problems. In the end it is convenience and acceptance that will make people continue things.

    I believe the article was published in 2014 - so just five years ago? Not a huge time frame imo and I believe most of it probably still holds true. He has a lot of other writings on the subject, if you are interested. I read one of his books a while back - very well written and interesting.

    Hal Herzog, Ph.D., Some We Love, Some We Hate, Some We Eat: Why It's So Hard To Think Straight About Animals.


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    #18
    Effects
    Registered Users Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭Effects


    gozunda wrote: »
    None of that reply made any sense. However I believe the main problem with that particular statement is that it's erroneous but also insulting to an entire nation and to those who may be overweight.

    And that's the problem when people attempt to use statistical descriptors without knowing what they mean. Unqualified medical assumptions are also not helpful imo.

    I didn't think it was that hard to understand.

    The current Irish diet, which you call normal, is leading to people being overweight.
    Being overweight is unhealthy.
    Unhealthy people are a burden on the health care system.

    It doesn't really matter if overweight people get insulted. It's true. Are you not allowed to say so in case you hurt peoples feelings?


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    #19
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Effects wrote: »
    I didn't think it was that hard to understand. The current Irish diet, which you call normal, is leading to people being overweight.Being overweight is unhealthy. Unhealthy people are a burden on the health care system. It doesn't really matter if overweight people get insulted. It's true. Are you not allowed to say so in case you hurt peoples feelings?

    Thanks for that on your advice - I'll be sure to insult any people who may be overweight that I meet in the future.

    You may note that I did not call the 'Irish' diet normal. I defined the question you asked 'what's a normal diet'. That some are taking that and substituting their own version of reality with extra sprinkles on - is completely irrelevant to the question asked and the answer provided.

    https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057971659/1/#post109903023

    You may also wish to look up the role of lifestyle versus diet in the role of maintaining optimal body weight. As stated making unqualified medical assumptions is not helpful. But whatever you think yourself - you seem to know everything already.


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    #20
    Effects
    Registered Users Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭Effects


    gozunda wrote: »
    You may note that I did not call the 'Irish' diet normal.
    Cool story.
    You may also wish to look up the roll of lifestyle versus diet in the role of maintaining optimal body weight. As stated making unqualified medical assumptions is not helpful.

    Who says my medical assumptions are unqualified?


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    #21
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Effects wrote: »
    Cool story
    Who says my medical assumptions are unqualified?

    True story!
    Rhetorical question?


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    #22
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    gozunda wrote: »
    I believe the article was published in 2014 - so just five years ago? Not a huge time frame imo and I believe most of it probably still holds true. He has a lot of other writings on the subject, if you are interested. I read one of his books a while back - very well written and intersting.

    Hal Herzog, Ph.D., Some We Love, Some We Hate, Some We Eat: Why It's So Hard To Think Straight About Animals.
    The number one reason for recidivism was dissatisfaction with food.
    5 years ago there wasn't a single vegan restaurant in Ireland, there were only one or two places that even had options out. A year ago there was one wholly vegan eatery in Dublin, now there are 13, along with options being available at hundreds more. Supermarkets had nothing but wholefoods, while admittedly great to eat that - not what people wholly eat and for a lot of people, barely eat! There is a convenience renaissance going on in a lot of areas surrounding veganism. The places that will be slower to adapt to that are rural, where the culture will change slower, social and economical issues will make change harder.


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    #23
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Tar.Aldarion wrote: »
    The number one reason for recidivism was dissatisfaction with food. 5 years ago there wasn't a single vegan restaurant in Ireland, there were only one or two places that even had options out. A year ago there was one wholly vegan eatery in Dublin, now there are 13, along with options being available at hundreds more. Supermarkets had nothing but wholefoods, while admittedly great to eat that - not what people wholly eat and for a lot of people, barely eat! There is a convenience renaissance going on in a lot of areas surrounding veganism. The places that will be slower to adapt to that are rural, where the culture will change slower, social and economical issues will make change harder.

    Do you have a link for that? From what I have read the causes are many and varied and not only limited to "dissatisfaction with food".

    With regard to the restaurants scene in Ireland etc - I don't disagree that the restaurant and fast food scene is always changing. And agreed that is more a state of play in Dublin than elsewhere where the rate of change is less volatile and the commercial market is smaller. That said Supermarket multiples are ubiquitous. Social influences and influencers are more relevant to such changes than 'culture' imo

    Meant to add as an aside - always thought there should be a better term than 'recidivism' which is the "the tendency of a convicted criminal to reoffend". Relapse perhaps?


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    #24
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    I read the study at the time - I'm sure it's still online somewhere. indeed there were many reasons, that one was just the most cited.


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    #25
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Tar.Aldarion wrote: »
    I read the study at the time - I'm sure it's still online somewhere. indeed there were many reasons, that one was just the most cited.

    Ok - dont think Ive came across that one tbh. Most of the stuff I've read seem to detail a range of issues. But no matter. Thanks.


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    #26
    auspicious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,497 ✭✭✭auspicious


    silverharp wrote: »
    there are a couple of channels that do reaction videos to these people, its amusing in some ways but sad if these "influencers" are making young girls in particular make bad choices especially when their bodies are still maturing.
    If anyone is giving radical diet advice, the least credible are going to be young twenty somethings who are going to be bullet proof in terms of health anyway.

    Agreed.
    There is a real absence of critical thinking in school-goers today with the curriculum steering towards more procedural subjects like maths and technology.
    Michael D puts it better than most people can

    "Do we not want to inspire our students to become engaged citizens, unafraid to question the status quo, to look beyond the barriers of perceived wisdom.."


    https://president.ie/en/media-library/speeches/speech-by-president-michael-d.-higgins-at-a-reception-to-launch-irish-young


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