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Buying a house - developer won't supply plans?

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  • 10-04-2019 10:38pm
    #1
    Miss_sussed
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭


    Hi,

    My partner and I are in the process of buying a new home. The developer has refused to supply the plans to our solicitor. How is this legal?

    The house is under construction. There is a showhouse that we've seen but it's bigger and has a different layout/appearance to the one we're in the middle of purchasing.

    You wouldn't buy a sofa online without knowing the dimensions and what it's going to look like... I'm really surprised at this. Does anyone have any advice for getting around this? Are we entitled to visit the site to see what the dimensions are so far?

    Thanks in advance for any advice.


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    #2
    Doop
    Registered Users Posts: 1,466 ✭✭✭Doop


    How are you in the process of buying a house that doesn't yet exist and you've not seen the plans for?.. Maybe I'm reading it wrong?


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    #3
    dave 27
    Registered Users Posts: 1,203 ✭✭✭dave 27


    Miss_sussed wrote: »
    Hi,

    My partner and I are in the process of buying a new home. The developer has refused to supply the plans to our solicitor. How is this legal?

    The house is under construction. There is a showhouse that we've seen but it's bigger and has a different layout/appearance to the one we're in the middle of purchasing.

    You wouldn't buy a sofa online without knowing the dimensions and what it's going to look like... I'm really surprised at this. Does anyone have any advice for getting around this? Are we entitled to visit the site to see what the dimensions are so far?

    Thanks in advance for any advice.

    Builders are not legally obliged to provide precise plans with dimensions because every house wont be exactly the same for various different reasons, for example a developer can change the thickness of walls to cater for a pipe or something else that works better with the design, so they could never produce as built drawings as the client would never be happy.

    They should however be able to provide you with some sort of computer generated plan that shows rough areas for size puropses but that is about it.


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    #4
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,017 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    This is, incredibly, not unusual, at least judging by the recent experiences of a couple of friends.

    The really unacceptable thing is that you will be put under pressure to sign contracts before construction is finished, without any specification provided, and site visits will be refused until snagging for spurious H&S reasons.


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    #5
    Doop
    Registered Users Posts: 1,466 ✭✭✭Doop


    Lumen wrote: »
    This is, incredibly, not unusual, at least judging by the recent experiences of a couple of friends.

    The really unacceptable thing is that you will be put under pressure to sign contracts before construction is finished, without any specification provided, and site visits will be refused until snagging for spurious H&S reasons.

    Surely one can at least get their hands on planning drawings? they may not be construction drawings or as built drawings, but essentially the developer does know what they are building as they were required to submit planning drawings to get permission for the development in the first place.. :confused:


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    #6
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Miss_sussed wrote: »
    Hi,

    My partner and I are in the process of buying a new home. The developer has refused to supply the plans to our solicitor. How is this legal?

    The house is under construction. There is a showhouse that we've seen but it's bigger and has a different layout/appearance to the one we're in the middle of purchasing.

    You wouldn't buy a sofa online without knowing the dimensions and what it's going to look like... I'm really surprised at this. Does anyone have any advice for getting around this? Are we entitled to visit the site to see what the dimensions are so far?

    Thanks in advance for any advice.

    This is normal.
    You buy based on the show house and the Estate Agents documentation which will include indicative layout plans.

    What estate are you buying in?
    Miss_sussed wrote: »
    Are we entitled to visit the site to see what the dimensions are so far?

    No.


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    #7
    Miss_sussed
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭Miss_sussed


    Thanks for the replies everyone. I understand that the actual dimensions may not be exactly what the plans are for various reasons. We just wanted a rough idea of the size to plan for furnishings, a feature wall etc..

    We have the brochure floor plans but they don't give a rough idea of scale.


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    #8
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,752 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    Miss_sussed wrote: »
    Thanks for the replies everyone. I understand that the actual dimensions may not be exactly what the plans are for various reasons. We just wanted a rough idea of the size to plan for furnishings, a feature wall etc..

    We have the brochure floor plans but they don't give a rough idea of scale.

    have you looked up the planning docs?


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    #9
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Miss_sussed wrote: »
    Thanks for the replies everyone. I understand that the actual dimensions may not be exactly what the plans are for various reasons. We just wanted a rough idea of the size to plan for furnishings, a feature wall etc..

    We have the brochure floor plans but they don't give a rough idea of scale.

    Never, ever order furnishings based from estate agent plans or even planning drawings.
    You need to wait to get the keys to check your actual house.


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    #10
    Miss_sussed
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭Miss_sussed


    Cyrus wrote: »
    have you looked up the planning docs?

    The planning documents that were submitted when applying for planning permission? Haven't checked yet. Is it just a matter of phoning or walking into the relevant local authority?


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    #11
    Tacklebox
    Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭Tacklebox


    Its like this, I studied landscape design back in the 90's my exe was an architectural technician it was common practice to draft out a house or landscape and incorporate the proper dimensions for amenities and facilities.

    Don't mind the bull**** you'll hear from building developer's and their lack of depth and knowledge of the basics of design and implementation of the requirements.

    I seriously think the knobs who we're dealing with nowadays are not a patch on the talent of year's gone by.

    You don't build a car to specifications, and decide oh I'll change this that and the other because I need a pipe to fit in that part of the engine.

    Your builder isn't being transparent, he sounds like a dodgy character.


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    #12
    C@t
    Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭C@t


    Miss_sussed wrote: »
    The planning documents that were submitted when applying for planning permission? Haven't checked yet. Is it just a matter of phoning or walking into the relevant local authority?

    You should be able to find them online, on your council’s website. e.g. for Galway county it’s http://www.galway.ie/en/services/planning/onlineplanningsystems/

    Find your development on the map and all the associated documents will be attached to the application.


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    #13
    Miss_sussed
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭Miss_sussed


    Tacklebox wrote: »
    Its like this, I studied landscape design back in the 90's my exe was an architectural technician it was common practice to draft out a house or landscape and incorporate the proper dimensions for amenities and facilities.

    Don't mind the bull**** you'll hear from building developer's and their lack of depth and knowledge of the basics of design and implementation of the requirements.

    I seriously think the knobs who we're dealing with nowadays are not a patch on the talent of year's gone by.

    You don't build a car to specifications, and decide oh I'll change this that and the other because I need a pipe to fit in that part of the engine.

    Your builder isn't being transparent, he sounds like a dodgy character.

    I know they have a set of plans and they're not just winging it as they go along.. I'm just frustrated that I can't get an idea of what we're buying! If we had the rough dimensions, we could peg them out in a field and get an idea of the space..


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    #14
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,752 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    Miss_sussed wrote: »
    I know they have a set of plans and they're not just winging it as they go along.. I'm just frustrated that I can't get an idea of what we're buying! If we had the rough dimensions, we could peg them out in a field and get an idea of the space..

    they will be online on the planning docs


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    #15
    ashes2014
    Registered Users Posts: 89 ✭✭ashes2014


    Lumen wrote: »
    This is, incredibly, not unusual, at least judging by the recent experiences of a couple of friends.

    The really unacceptable thing is that you will be put under pressure to sign contracts before construction is finished, without any specification provided, and site visits will be refused until snagging for spurious H&S reasons.
    This is awful that people are accepting this.

    So you pay a couple of hundred thousand euro and they wont give you a general plan! Ah now now, thats not fair.


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    #16
    arctictree
    Registered Users Posts: 4,291 ✭✭✭arctictree


    Tell him if he doesn't supply the plans then you are not buying the house. Simple.


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    #17
    muttnjeff
    Registered Users Posts: 75 ✭✭muttnjeff


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    I'd do one of these courses too. dismisses their 'no access on heath and safety grounds' bu**sh**


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    #18
    Miss_sussed
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭Miss_sussed


    ashes2014 wrote: »
    This is awful that people are accepting this.

    So you pay a couple of hundred thousand euro and they wont give you a general plan! Ah now now, thats not fair.

    Yeah people have no choice at the moment.. If you don't accept it, someone else will..


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    #19
    Metric Tensor
    Registered Users Posts: 3,724 ✭✭✭Metric Tensor


    Miss_sussed wrote: »
    Yeah people have no choice at the moment.. If you don't accept it, someone else will..

    This is the problem OP. I feel for your situation. It's not right but as you said - it's a seller's market.

    I do see the builder's point of view too. Some customers would cause all sorts of problems if a wall is 5mm from where it's shown on a plan so it's easier to just say no safe in the knowledge that someone else will buy it.

    The planning drawings "should" be close enough to the final product so will help you out. I would not order furniture based on them though.


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    #20
    Tacklebox
    Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭Tacklebox


    Miss_sussed wrote: »
    Yeah people have no choice at the moment.. If you don't accept it, someone else will..

    It's sad really that this kind of parochial mindset of the builders is still alive and well in Ireland.

    I know I waffle on about year's ago and how some things were better etc

    But these builders again know that no matter what they'll get their money and the cost of litigation to correct a simple mishap is too high for the average person to persue.

    So it's win win for the elite and their ostentatious idealism.

    The buyer could be more than likely, taping draughts underneath window sills by next Christmas and the developer is well wrapped up in red tape and has the law on their side.

    I'm thinking of selling up and scaling down in a year or two. If I'm lucky enough to sell my own, I'll buy in the depths of winter, it won't be hard to find dampness,stains and over painted mould in December.


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    #21
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,439 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Tacklebox wrote: »
    It's sad really that this kind of parochial mindset of the builders is still alive and well in Ireland.

    I know I waffle on about year's ago and how some things were better etc

    But these builders again know that no matter what they'll get their money and the cost of litigation to correct a simple mishap is too high for the average person to persue.

    So it's win win for the elite and their ostentatious idealism.

    The buyer could be more than likely, taping draughts underneath window sills by next Christmas and the developer is well wrapped up in red tape and has the law on their side.

    I'm thinking of selling up and scaling down in a year or two. If I'm lucky enough to sell my own, I'll buy in the depths of winter, it won't be hard to find dampness,stains and over painted mould in December.
    Can you explain how having access to plans is going to prevent a buyer having to tape up their window sills? If a builder does a shoddy job they're going to do a shoddy job whether or not they give you the drawings.


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    #22
    Ush1
    Registered Users Posts: 11,461 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    awec wrote: »
    Can you explain how having access to plans is going to prevent a buyer having to tape up their window sills? If a builder does a shoddy job they're going to do a shoddy job whether or not they give you the drawings.

    Least you will know how much tape is needed?:pac:


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    #23
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,017 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Metric Tensor wrote: »
    This is the problem OP. I feel for your situation. It's not right but as you said - it's a seller's market.

    I do see the builder's point of view too. Some customers would cause all sorts of problems if a wall is 5mm from where it's shown on a plan so it's easier to just say no safe in the knowledge that someone else will buy it.

    The planning drawings "should" be close enough to the final product so will help you out. I would not order furniture based on them though.

    The problem isn't the lack of plans per se, it's the fact that you're pressured into signing contracts for something that's effectively unspecified. If the builder wants to sell it like a second hand house, fine, but then wait until it's finished before demanding money and commitment.


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    #24
    Tacklebox
    Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭Tacklebox


    awec wrote: »
    Can you explain how having access to plans is going to prevent a buyer having to tape up their window sills? If a builder does a shoddy job they're going to do a shoddy job whether or not they give you the drawings.

    I mean hypothetically.... It happens frequently


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