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Any legal come back after receiving a false BER?

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  • 26-03-2019 1:41pm
    #1
    ArrBee
    Registered Users Posts: 791 ✭✭✭


    After buying a house with a B rating (can't remember the exact level) I now have a very strong suspicion the rating was incorrectly high.

    I've discovered a series of issues with the original rating ranging from inaccurate findings, to possible BER framework issues which don't take some high impacting design problems into consideration.
    eg. under dimensioned boiler, uninsulated buried hot water pipes.


    If it can be proven (should be easy to do) that the BER should in fact be lower, is there any precedence to claiming a difference in house value from the person who carried out the original BER?


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    #2
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,072 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    ArrBee wrote: »
    After buying a house with a B rating (can't remember the exact level) I now have a very strong suspicion the rating was incorrectly high.

    I've discovered a series of issues with the original rating ranging from inaccurate findings, to possible BER framework issues which don't take some high impacting design problems into consideration.
    eg. under dimensioned boiler, uninsulated buried hot water pipes.


    If it can be proven (should be easy to do) that the BER should in fact be lower, is there any precedence to claiming a difference in house value from the person who carried out the original BER?

    do you have the original xml file? you need this in order to validate exactly what was inputted.

    the "advisory report" is completely useless, and i wouldnt be using that as any kind of basis for argument.


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    #3
    vintagecosmos
    Registered Users Posts: 851 ✭✭✭vintagecosmos


    I have found the BER to be a general indicator. I moved in to an A3 rated house that was freezing, unsealed doors throughout the house and roofspace. Also no insulation in doorway thresholds leading to a thermal bridge. A HVAC system circulating 12 degrees cold air throughout winter. A small radiator in a large room which would need at least two large rads etc.

    What I found it that the BER cert will tick the boxes on you having double glazed, LEDs, Solar Panels etc. But it doesnt take into account how well they are installed, or the state they are in.

    You mentioned buried pipes, should a BER assessor be inspecting that?


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    #4
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users Posts: 12,217 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    ArrBee wrote: »
    After buying a house with a B rating (can't remember the exact level) I now have a very strong suspicion the rating was incorrectly high.

    I've discovered a series of issues with the original rating ranging from inaccurate findings, to possible BER framework issues which don't take some high impacting design problems into consideration.
    eg. under dimensioned boiler, uninsulated buried hot water pipes.


    If it can be proven (should be easy to do) that the BER should in fact be lower, is there any precedence to claiming a difference in house value from the person who carried out the original BER?

    First: False BER: big accusatory claim that: how will you prove it is false?

    Secondly, the market is not pricing BERs into the valuations

    Thirdly: The BER is for the house holder and, IIRC, it does not transfer to the buyer, so you can't rely on it, unless you included it in the contract of sale.

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



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    #5
    ArrBee
    Registered Users Posts: 791 ✭✭✭ArrBee


    No, I don't have xml files, only the printed report.

    While I do understand that there is a limited number of efficiencies actually being assessed, I'd expect it to be done accurately.
    for example the report says we don't have a fireplace, when we actually do.

    I do also acknowledge that some of the issue will be with the inputs or lack of.
    e.g. I believe that there is an assessment on the efficiency of the boiler but I'm unsure if part of the assessment picks up an under dimensioned boiler?

    The underground pipe should be part of the assessment for sure as it has a massive impact on the efficiency of the heating system. (found this out the 1st time it snowed!). No need to go digging.... simply look at where the pipe connects to the boiler and you can see the type and level of pipe insulation. Kind of like not having to dig into a wall to asses the wall insulation??
    Again, it may be that the framework doesn't cover this.


    My fear is that the original BER was not legit and false.
    If this is not the case, then "no problem". But if it IS the case, has there been any precedence for recovering the missing house value?
    I mean after all, BER is used as a marketable feature.

    My argument would be like so: (hypothetically)
    The house was sold as having a registered BER of, say, B1.
    Somehow, using the same method of assessment, the BER should actually be a C2.
    I have paid the perceived value difference between C2 and B1 for the property as it was incorrectly assessed and advertised.


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    #6
    ArrBee
    Registered Users Posts: 791 ✭✭✭ArrBee


    Calahonda52 wrote: »
    First: False BER: big accusatory claim that: how will you prove it is false?

    Secondly, the market is not pricing BERs into the valuations

    Thirdly: The BER is for the house holder and, IIRC, it does not transfer to the buyer, so you can't rely on it, unless you included it in the contract of sale.

    1st, easy. as the certification is objective a subsequent assessment would show if the 1st one was false.

    2nd, That's wrong. of course energy efficiency is part of the value of a property.

    3rd, Given that a BER is mandatory for the sale of a house, I find your statement more than a little baffling.
    If a BER certificate can not be relied on, what is it's purpose and why is it mandatory to supply one to anyone buying or renting a property?


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    #7
    3DataModem
    Registered Users Posts: 3,957 ✭✭✭3DataModem


    Please keep us posted if you take this further: I want to hear what if any consequences exist for (a) inspector (b) solicitor (c) seller in this case.


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    #8
    ArrBee
    Registered Users Posts: 791 ✭✭✭ArrBee


    Will do.

    My feeling would be that it is all on the assessor.
    Solicitor has a duty to make sure a cert is supplied, but I can't see how they can be responsible for it's validity other than the assessor was registered.
    Vendor, ditto. Even if they asked the assessor to bend the truth, it's the assessor professional responsibility to asses correctly.


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    #9
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,072 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    ArrBee wrote: »
    No, I don't have xml files, only the printed report.
    .

    that report is useless

    ArrBee wrote: »
    for example the report says we don't have a fireplace, when we actually do.
    .

    does it say you dont have a chimney??

    because a stove, or open fire with damper, is considered an "open flue" and not a "chimney" ... this are the phrasing used in the assessment.... again ill redirect you above.... the report is useless
    ArrBee wrote: »
    I believe that there is an assessment on the efficiency of the boiler but I'm unsure if part of the assessment picks up an under dimensioned boiler?
    .

    i carry out BERs, and ive no idea what you mean by under dimensioned boilers? do you mean teh boiler isn't strong enough to heat the house??
    If so, thats got nothing to do with the BER assessor.

    How do you know what type of boiler was inputted??
    ArrBee wrote: »
    The underground pipe should be part of the assessment for sure as it has a massive impact on the efficiency of the heating system. (found this out the 1st time it snowed!). No need to go digging.... simply look at where the pipe connects to the boiler and you can see the type and level of pipe insulation. Kind of like not having to dig into a wall to asses the wall insulation??
    Again, it may be that the framework doesn't cover this.
    .

    the conventions do not allow for an assessor to include for an insulated unground pipe, unless there is photographic proof of the whole pipe being insulated prior to covering... or the signing off engineer provides something to say that its fully insulated.

    seeing a slip of insulation around the pipe where it leaves the ground is not considered acceptable to include it as an insulated pipe.
    ArrBee wrote: »
    My fear is that the original BER was not legit and false.
    .

    everything youve said so far shows you actually have no idea about the procedures or conventions.... so making a claim like the above is completely unwarranted.

    ArrBee wrote: »
    My argument would be like so: (hypothetically)
    The house was sold as having a registered BER of, say, B1.
    Somehow, using the same method of assessment, the BER should actually be a C2.
    I have paid the perceived value difference between C2 and B1 for the property as it was incorrectly assessed and advertised.

    the difference between a C2 and B1 can be as great as 125kwhr/m2 of an energy value difference... or can be as little as a 75 kwhr/m2. thats a wide scope for change.

    so the first thing id suggest you do, if you want to pursue this, is to go and pay for another assessment to be carried out.

    if this assessment shows a big change of rating then you can try to argue and quantify a value change... but if it doesnt then thats it.
    youd also have to argue that the rating is a significant value pusher, and a chat with a local auctioneer will show that this isnt really the case at all... unless the dwelling is in a housing estate of similar houses, and the rating is significantly different to the other assessments carried out in the scheme.


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    #10
    ArrBee
    Registered Users Posts: 791 ✭✭✭ArrBee


    Bloody hell, I feel like I've touched a nerve.

    I said all along that there 2 aspects.
    1. potential failings by the assessor leading to a false value.
    2. issues with the framework that the assessors are forced to use. (easy to determine energy efficiencies are not assessed when they could be)

    1. is a potential legal issue,
    2. is not.

    To determine if there is a legal case to answer it is easy to work out. I said it at the start. yes a 2nd assessment would show this. and if it doesn't then case closed.


    Incidentally, I'm interested about the claim that seeing insulation at an exit point is not good enough to determine it exists the whole way. I understand why. But how is that approach applied to wall insulation?
    How do you satisfy the same level of proof that the entire wall is insulated?


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    #11
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,072 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    ArrBee wrote: »
    Bloody hell, I feel like I've touched a nerve.

    I said all along that there 2 aspects.
    1. potential failings by the assessor leading to a false value.
    2. issues with the framework that the assessors are forced to use. (easy to determine energy efficiencies are not assessed when they could be)

    1. is a potential legal issue,
    2. is not.

    To determine if there is a legal case to answer it is easy to work out. I said it at the start. yes a 2nd assessment would show this. and if it doesn't then case closed.


    Incidentally, I'm interested about the claim that seeing insulation at an exit point is not good enough to determine it exists the whole way. I understand why. But how is that approach applied to wall insulation?
    How do you satisfy the same level of proof that the entire wall is insulated?

    no you havent touched a nerve at all....

    all youve done is shown you dont understand the procedures and conventions... but most of all you dont understand the BER system itself.

    it is never a reflection on the specific energy usage of a specific house.

    To be honest, i dont blame you for having this misunderstanding as its "sold" completely incorrectly by auctioneers and SEAI

    edit: this isnt to say your BER cert is right or wrong.... i havent a clue. i just think your starting position of legal action is completely over the top.


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    #12
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    I wish you luck.

    https://www.independent.ie/life/home-garden/homes/the-berfaced-lies-our-inaccurate-energy-ratings-30257397.html

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057097562&page=6
    https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/incorrect-ber-what-can-i-do.153864/


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    #13
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ArrBee wrote: »
    If a BER certificate can not be relied on, what is it's purpose and why is it mandatory to supply one to anyone buying or renting a property?


    BER isn't worth the paper it is printed on. It is partly based on usage, so a tight miser living on his own without the telly or heating on would have a much higher rating than, say, a young family or an older person who has the heating up full blast.


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    #14
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,072 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It is partly based on usage, so a tight miser living on his own without the telly or heating on would have a much higher rating than, say, a young family or an older person who has the heating up full blast.

    absolutely untrue....

    it doesnt take into account how a person heats their house.

    Deleted User wrote: »
    BER isn't worth the paper it is printed on..

    agreed.


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    #15
    ArrBee
    Registered Users Posts: 791 ✭✭✭ArrBee


    beauf wrote: »
    I wish you luck.

    https://www.independent.ie/life/home-garden/homes/the-berfaced-lies-our-inaccurate-energy-ratings-30257397.html

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057097562&page=6
    https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/incorrect-ber-what-can-i-do.153864/


    Thank you.

    some good reading.


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    #16
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    absolutely untrue....

    it doesnt take into account how a person heats their house.

    ????

    Are you sure?
    Your BER is calculated through energy use for space and hot water heating, ventilation, and lighting

    Source: https://www.seai.ie/energy-ratings/building-energy-rating-ber/

    I was under the impression it is based on energy use of a typical building of the same size. So if you use more, it deems you to be less efficient and vice versa.

    Edit: Also, don't you have to submit your usage to the assessor when you're getting a BER done? Why is this the case if the usage doesn't impact the rating?


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    #17
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,072 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Deleted User wrote: »
    ????

    Are you sure?



    Source: https://www.seai.ie/energy-ratings/building-energy-rating-ber/


    im 100% ... ive been an assessor since the scheme first came in 2007.

    SEAI spin it like its specific to the energy usage in specific dwellings, but its not.

    The best analogy is one i read in one of the articles beauf linked to:
    The Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland (SEAI), which is responsible for implementing the system, likens it to mpg on a car, which measures consumption only, without taking into account driving habits or terrain.


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    #18
    ArrBee
    Registered Users Posts: 791 ✭✭✭ArrBee


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    no you havent touched a nerve at all....

    all youve done is shown you dont understand the procedures and conventions... but most of all you dont understand the BER system itself.

    it is never a reflection on the specific energy usage of a specific house.

    To be honest, i dont blame you for having this misunderstanding as its "sold" completely incorrectly by auctioneers and SEAI

    edit: this isnt to say your BER cert is right or wrong.... i havent a clue. i just think your starting position of legal action is completely over the top.




    I think I understand more than you assume.
    But I admit I don't know as much as someone working in the industry especially someone performing the assessments which is why I am here asking questions.

    I am disappointed as I understand the intent of BER ratings and see how they can fail at that intent through either missed opportunity to asses some meaningful metrics, or not having a robust and accountable system (judging by some of those other links).

    Legal action is not a starting position. finding out if the BER is incorrect is.
    I didn't ask about that as it's a no brainer that doesn't need discussion.
    I guess it came across asking about the legal aspect as me being hell bent on that outcome when in fact I was asking ahead of getting a new BER. Plus I figured it was an interesting topic.


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    #19
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,072 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I was under the impression it is based on energy use of a typical building of the same size.

    correct
    Deleted User wrote: »
    So if you use more, it deems you to be less efficient and vice versa.

    correct... but this doesnt effect your rating.

    so take 2 x 2000 sq ft 2 storey houses that are C2 rating... exactly the same in every way.

    one house has a family of 7, lots of kids, mom/dad at home all the time.... new baby so extra warm house etc....

    and in the other is a retired couple who are away a lot.. only use some rooms.. etc.

    Its going to cost a hell of a lot more to run the first house when compared to the second house...... but the two houses are the same rating, because the actual usage of the house doesnt effect the rating.


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    #20
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,072 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    ArrBee wrote: »
    I think I understand more than you assume.
    But I admit I don't know as much as someone working in the industry especially someone performing the assessments which is why I am here asking questions.

    I am disappointed as I understand the intent of BER ratings and see how they can fail at that intent through either missed opportunity to asses some meaningful metrics, or not having a robust and accountable system (judging by some of those other links).

    Legal action is not a starting position. finding out if the BER is incorrect is.
    I didn't ask about that as it's a no brainer that doesn't need discussion.
    I guess it came across asking about the legal aspect as me being hell bent on that outcome when in fact I was asking ahead of getting a new BER. Plus I figured it was an interesting topic.

    yeah its the title of the thread which informed my responses here.... trying to save you from going down a rabbit hole legally.

    can i ask you again, what do you mean by an 'under dimensioned boiler'??
    the actual dimensions of the boiler do not have an correlation with anything from an energy point of view.

    and last question, what if the new assessment provides the same rating though.......


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    #21
    ArrBee
    Registered Users Posts: 791 ✭✭✭ArrBee


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    yeah its the title of the thread which informed my responses here.... trying to save you from going down a rabbit hole legally.

    can i ask you again, what do you mean by an 'under dimensioned boiler'??
    the actual dimensions of the boiler do not have an correlation with anything from an energy point of view.

    and last question, what if the new assessment provides the same rating though.......



    Sure...

    Under dimensioned heating capacity. not the physical dimensions. :)
    I'm guessing in practical terms its a product of kw output, efficiency, pump performance. Add to that things like distance that the hot water travels and insulation (or heat loss along the way) and number of rads plus guess temperature delta and you can calculate how grunty the boiler needs to be.
    So if I have a boiler designed for a small house outputting up to 70k BTU trying to heat 30 rads in 3k sqft, It aint going to work. The boiler is under dimensioned for the job being asked of it.
    The result will be that the rads never fully heat up = inefficient.

    If the BER comes back as the same, or even if there is a viable reason why it is different, then that's it. end of story.
    The issue is (what I suspect is the main point of many people) the BER assessment system is not as useful in giving an indication as it is marketed as. Not the fault of an individual.


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    #22
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    ArrBee wrote: »
    ...finding out if the BER is incorrect is.....

    Even if the BER is done perfectly. Its probably not accurate. Its inherently flawed.

    Others have said before that if you get a willing BER Assessor, and open walls and the ground similar to show everything that has been done that is not normally visible to a BER Assessor. Make sure you tick every box. You might be able to improve the BER rating but only slightly.

    But even having done all that. No one who is interested in efficiency improvements are going to accept the BER at face value. They want to far more details on the specifics. So the BER becomes not that important.

    The BER is a rough guide at best.

    But its not going to tell you anything you don't know about an old vs new building. Assuming you know about new and old building.


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    #23
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It is partly based on usage.
    Not true


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    #24
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,072 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    ArrBee wrote: »
    Sure...

    Under dimensioned heating capacity. not the physical dimensions. :)
    I'm guessing in practical terms its a product of kw output, efficiency, pump performance. Add to that things like distance that the hot water travels and insulation (or heat loss along the way) and number of rads plus guess temperature delta and you can calculate how grunty the boiler needs to be.
    So if I have a boiler designed for a small house outputting up to 70k BTU trying to heat 30 rads in 3k sqft, It aint going to work. The boiler is under dimensioned for the job being asked of it.
    The result will be that the rads never fully heat up = inefficient.
    .

    the assessor does not check for any of that.... as the software has no facility to assess these factors.
    ArrBee wrote: »
    The issue is (what I suspect is the main point of many people) the BER assessment system is not as useful in giving an indication as it is marketed as. Not the fault of an individual.

    fully agreed....

    its a box ticking exercise for the auctioneer to advertise and for the solicitor to check during the conveyancing process.

    I agree that its been sold as something it aint... but thats not from the assessors... its from SEAI


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    #25
    ArrBee
    Registered Users Posts: 791 ✭✭✭ArrBee


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    the assessor does not check for any of that.... as the software has no facility to assess these factors.

    I fully expected that to be the case which is why I categorise that as a limitation of the framework used. not a failing of the assessor.
    I added that to the discussion only suspecting the software doesn't make provisions but thinking "it's so easy to incorporate such a calculation and logical that maybe it does" so wanted comment from people who know. Thanks.
    sydthebeat wrote: »
    fully agreed....

    its a box ticking exercise for the auctioneer to advertise and for the solicitor to check during the conveyancing process.

    I agree that its been sold as something it aint... but thats not from the assessors... its from SEAI

    The problem that I am now seeing (having had my eyes opened a little more), is that like a lot of things the implementation of the BER scheme/system/what ever you want to call it is half arsed resulting in unreliability in the result.

    I think they way it is marketed would have been OK if the implementation was there to back that up, and I don't think it is too hard if more thought was put to it.
    The marketing of BER is what they wanted it to be and what it could be. What has been delivered is "not all that".


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    #26
    Anteayer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 886 ✭✭✭Anteayer


    We did a whole load of upgrading of the house : solar panels, triple glazing, all exterior doors replaced, ultra efficient boiler, insulation, thermostatic valves in every room, zoned heating with fancy controls, all LED lighting etc etc

    Assessor didn’t notice the LEDs, rated the boiler incorrectly didn’t even want to see the spec sheet and said it was non condensing, didn’t want to see the info for the windows or anything, despite all the data about all this stuff being available in a folder.

    House came out as C3 which wasn’t great

    Couldn’t be bothered doing any further updates to the place at this rate. The system is a bureaucratic box ticking exercise and won't be reflected in the resale value.

    Even the floor area of the house is wrong.

    It's an absolute joke of a system and sums up Irish officialdom's attitude to energy policy - box ticking.


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    #27
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,072 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    ArrBee wrote: »
    I fully expected that to be the case which is why I categorise that as a limitation of the framework used. not a failing of the assessor..

    its only a 'limitation of the framework' if thats what you expect the system to provide. If you were familiar with the system youd understand thats not what its designed to provide. It sounds like what you expect is a "deep retrofit" type report that costs multiples of the average BER rate.

    you have to remember this certification process commands a rate of typically approx €150-200.


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    #28
    Shaunoc
    Registered Users Posts: 521 ✭✭✭Shaunoc


    Anteayer wrote: »
    We did a whole load of upgrading of the house : solar panels, triple glazing, all exterior doors replaced, ultra efficient boiler, insulation, thermostatic valves in every room, zoned heating with fancy controls, all LED lighting etc etc

    Assessor didn’t notice the LEDs, rated the boiler incorrectly didn’t even want to see the spec sheet and said it was non condensing, didn’t want to see the info for the windows or anything, despite all the data about all this stuff being available in a folder.

    House came out as C3 which wasn’t great

    Couldn’t be bothered doing any further updates to the place at this rate. The system is a bureaucratic box ticking exercise and won't be reflected in the resale value.

    Even the floor area of the house is wrong.

    It's an absolute joke of a system and sums up Irish officialdom's attitude to energy policy - box ticking.

    i believe assessors are audited occasionally
    i doubt there is a snitch line :D


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    #29
    ercork
    Registered Users Posts: 177 ✭✭ercork


    I think the BER is a useful tool. The problem is that people expect more from it than it actually is designed to give. In the same way that a car's NCT cert is not as comprehensive as a full check/service by a mechanic, neither is a BER cert as informative as getting a full energy audit done on a house (which would check leakproofness, etc.). A BER is best used to compare the likey energy demand of different properties assuming constant heating requirements and assuming competent standards of workmanship in how windows are installed, etc.

    To the OP, I emailed the guy who carried out the BER on a property I bought a few years earlier. He sent me on the .xml file which I was able to open up using the SEAI's DEAP software. Might be worth checking that. If his email isn't on the advisory report you can get it on the SEAI website by typing in the BER number.


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    #30
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,015 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    IMO the BER would be slightly less useless if presented simply as a table of relative judgments on the building fabric, based on (a) impact on energy use (A-F), (b) likely cost/disruption to fix (1-5).

    e.g.
    poor draught stripping: F, 1.
    single glazed windows: F, 5.
    ancient boiler: E, 3.
    dormer structure with no air tightness testing: E, 5.
    uninsulated solid floor: B, 4.
    no attic insulation: D, 2.

    or whatever.

    Then the potential purchaser would have a rough idea where the likely work would go.

    All that boilerplate text just serves to distract, like a long weather forecast.

    And presenting the result as a set of numbers with plausible-looking S.I. units is a triumph of precision over accuracy.


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    #31
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,072 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Lumen wrote: »
    IMO the BER would be slightly less useless if presented simply as a table of relative judgments on the building fabric, based on (a) impact on energy use (A-F), (b) likely cost/disruption to fix (1-5).

    e.g.
    poor draught stripping: F, 1.
    single glazed windows: F, 5.
    ancient boiler: E, 3.
    dormer structure with no air tightness testing: E, 5.
    uninsulated solid floor: B, 4.
    no attic insulation: D, 2.

    or whatever.

    Then the potential purchaser would have a rough idea where the likely work would go.

    All that boilerplate text just serves to distract, like a long weather forecast.

    And presenting the result as a set of numbers with plausible-looking S.I. units is a triumph of precision over accuracy.

    interesting idea.

    though the current system is used to measure energy values AND CO2 emissions.... so whatever system you come up with would have to have some ability to offer a final measured energy value, and CO2 value... in order to create databases for policy making.

    we can estimate energy savings through grant assistance using the BER system. we can calculate CO2 savings.... we can calculate CO2 emissions on new builds with particular specifications and design regulation around these calculations.

    the problem is all end users want the system to be specific to their particular usage, needs, habits etc when it simply cannot (well not at a fee structure as to make it accessible).
    the conventions and protocols have to take account of averages, defaults, and assumed settings.


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