2013-4 Heineken Cup Discussion Thread

Woody1997 · 21-04-2014 12:20am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well then I'd have to question your judgement to be honest. I've seen the game twice and I can't really understand how you could arrive at that conclusion, especially so decisively.

Just a difference of opinion then I suppose. I thought he just let everything go at the breakdown and didnt referee the offside line well at all

CatFromHue · 21-04-2014 12:52am

The offside line is really something the touch judges should look after, they have by far the best view of it. Alot of the time the ref will even have his back to the defensive line too!

At the breakdown I don't really remember any or many problems I had with how Barnes reffed it. I just thought the Toulon players got in early and we couldn't ruck them out of it.

former legend · 21-04-2014 1:20am

Woody1997 wrote: »

While I admit that Leinster lost to Toulon for a whole host of reasons other than Barnes, his, in my opinion, awful refereeing of the breakdown didn't help them at all. At one stage Bastareaud was not even close to supporting his own weight with one hand grabbing at the ball and Barnes gave the penalty to him. I reiterate that the referee was not the losing of this match for Leinster, but i find the notion that he had a very good game quite ridiculous.

The bolded part is where your argument falls down. At one stage? How many breakdowns did Toulon win over the course of the 80?

At any given tackle area, ruck, scrum etc, you have a multitude of players either playing the absolute limit of the rules or outright cheating. It's an inevitable fact of life that fans of team A won't like it when team B gets a penalty and will find some reason to challenge it. So yeah, maybe Bastareaud got an incorrect penalty but that's the nature of the game, it didn't remotely affect the outcome so who cares?

As one of the most blue-eyed Leinster fans walking the earth, I can safely say that Barnes did a very good job in the QF and that Leinster were legitimately made to look amateur at every breakdown. The better team won, not because of or in spite of the referee, but because they were the better team, as is the case in 99.9% of games.

Criticising a referee's interpretation of "the breakdown" is one of my pet peeves too, it's just non-specific enough so that it can't directly disproved, and I have yet to see anyone here state that "wow, the ref is letting everything go at the breakdown and it's my team that is benefitting hugely". It always seems to be the opposition getting away with murder.

Funny that.

Woody1997 · 21-04-2014 1:32am

former legend wrote: »

The bolded part is where your argument falls down. At one stage? How many breakdowns did Toulon win over the course of the 80?

At any given tackle area, ruck, scrum etc, you have a multitude of players either playing the rules or outright cheating. It's an inevitable fact of life that fans of team A won't like it when team B gets a penalty and will find some reason to challenge it. So yeah, maybe Bastareaud got an incorrect penalty but that's the nature of the game, it didn't remotely affect the outcome so who cares?

As one of the most blue-eyed Leinster fans walking the earth, I can safely say that Barnes did a very good job in the QF and that Leinster were legitimately made to look amateur at every breakdown. The better team won, not because of or in spite of the referee, but because they were the better team, as is the case in 99.9% of games.

Criticising a referee's interpretation of "the breakdown" is one of my pet peeves too, it's just non-specific enough so that it can't directly disproved, and I have yet to see anyone here state that "wow, the ref is letting everything go at the breakdown and it's my team that is benefitting hugely". It always seems to be the opposition getting away with murder.

Funny that.

To be honest there were quite a few rucks where Toulon were spoiling the ball ilegally. As I said, this was not the reason Leinster lost the match, I also never mentioned that Leinster weren't awarded some dodgy decisions throughout the match, as there was one particular incident where I thought Leinster were lucky to get a penalty.

The reason I used the phrase "At one stage" was because I felt that that particular incident best highlighted Barnes' poor officiating of the breakdown. I don't really see how you have a problem with people criticising a referee's interpretation of the breakdown, it's quite a large part of the game.

As I mentioned originally, Leinster did not deserve to win in Toulon and there were countless other reasons why the didn't other than the referee's interpretation of the ruck area, however, I felt that Barnes did a poor job in this area, as I have felt after quite a few of the games I have seen him officiate over the years, the vast majority of which did not invlove Leinster.

Rightwing · 21-04-2014 10:15am

Woody1997 wrote: »

To be honest there were quite a few rucks where Toulon were spoiling the ball ilegally. As I said, this was not the reason Leinster lost the match, I also never mentioned that Leinster weren't awarded some dodgy decisions throughout the match, as there was one particular incident where I thought Leinster were lucky to get a penalty.

The reason I used the phrase "At one stage" was because I felt that that particular incident best highlighted Barnes' poor officiating of the breakdown. I don't really see how you have a problem with people criticising a referee's interpretation of the breakdown, it's quite a large part of the game.

As I mentioned originally, Leinster did not deserve to win in Toulon and there were countless other reasons why the didn't other than the referee's interpretation of the ruck area, however, I felt that Barnes did a poor job in this area, as I have felt after quite a few of the games I have seen him officiate over the years, the vast majority of which did not invlove Leinster.

Toulon were just different class. I'm afraid the same will apply to Munster.

irishbucsfan · 21-04-2014 1:38pm

Woody1997 wrote: »

To be honest there were quite a few rucks where Toulon were spoiling the ball ilegally. As I said, this was not the reason Leinster lost the match, I also never mentioned that Leinster weren't awarded some dodgy decisions throughout the match, as there was one particular incident where I thought Leinster were lucky to get a penalty.

The reason I used the phrase "At one stage" was because I felt that that particular incident best highlighted Barnes' poor officiating of the breakdown. I don't really see how you have a problem with people criticising a referee's interpretation of the breakdown, it's quite a large part of the game.

As I mentioned originally, Leinster did not deserve to win in Toulon and there were countless other reasons why the didn't other than the referee's interpretation of the ruck area, however, I felt that Barnes did a poor job in this area, as I have felt after quite a few of the games I have seen him officiate over the years, the vast majority of which did not invlove Leinster.

So what was wrong with his interpretation of the breakdown then?

You've just said he was poor. Can you actually explain what he was doing that was incorrect, and which very few other fans seem to have noticed?

sweetthing · 22-04-2014 5:17pm

http://www.planetrugby.com/gallery/story/0,25928,9825_9278338,00.html

Planet rugby put together a list of the top 10 try scorers in H cup history. How many Irish players dya tjink? Think it would be shorter to list the players who aren't irish!

CatFromHue · 22-04-2014 5:21pm

9. Michel Marfaing (Toulouse): 24 tries in 38 matches

:eek:

ssaye2 · 24-04-2014 4:37pm

http://www.ercrugby.com/matchcentre/28362.php

Tomorrow 8pm Amlin SF

former legend · 25-04-2014 12:15pm

Rougerie injured for Clermont, Benson Stanley in at 13.

Byrne ; Sivivatu, Stanley, Fofana, Nalaga ; James, Parra ; Chouly, Lee, Bonnaire (cap) ; Hines, Cudmore ; Zirakashvili, Kayser, Domingo.

Subs: Paulo, Debaty, Ric, Pierre, Vosloo, Lacrampe, Delany, Nakaitaci.

15. Alex Goode; 14. Chris Ashton, 13. Marcelo Bosch, 12. Brad Barritt, 11. David Strettle; 10. Owen Farrell, 9. Neil de Kock; 1. Mako Vunipola, 2. Schalk Brits, 3. James Johnston, 4. Steve Borthwick ©, 5. Mouritz Botha, 6. Kelly Brown, 7. Jacques Burger, 8. Billy Vunipola.

Replacements; 16. Jamie George, 17. Richard Barrington, 18. Matt Stevens, 19. Alistair Hargreaves, 20. Jackson Wray, 21. Richard Wiggleworth, 22. Tim Streather, 23. Chris Wyles.

I hope Clermont stuff them, but this is not going to be a pretty game at all.

ssaye2 · 25-04-2014 12:17pm

http://www.ercrugby.com/matchcentre/28365.php

wasps v bath

Tox56 · 25-04-2014 12:35pm

former legend wrote: »

Rougerie injured for Clermont, Benson Stanley in at 13.

Ah the poor buggers, one more injury and they would have had to bring in Regan King! Disaster!

matthew8 · 25-04-2014 8:06pm

Yet another tackle in the air. Jamie Elliott should really do better there.

Tomtom364 · 25-04-2014 8:12pm

matthew8 wrote: »

Yet another tackle in the air. Jamie Elliott should really do better there.

Commentator explaining that the referees have received a new directive for dealing with in the air situations.
IRB clearly reacting to recent issues and acting to ensure a consistent approach.

Great to see.

errlloyd · 25-04-2014 8:32pm

World class from kahn

Kiwi_knock · 25-04-2014 9:13pm

Good TMO decision, did not look like it touched his finger. Northampton stretching their lead.

sydthebeat · 25-04-2014 9:15pm

Kiwi_knock wrote: »

Good TMO decision, did not look like it touched his finger. Northampton stretching their lead.

Funny, I could see a clear change in the balls trajectory. ...

25-04-2014 10:08pm

feck me, Ugo is a good talker

bilston · 26-04-2014 7:48am

I know it's really petty but I don't think I've ever wanted a non Irish team to win before as much as today.

Please Clermont, please do this today...you simply have to win!

sydneybound · 26-04-2014 9:28am

Anyone know is twickenham sold out today? After having 83,000 at Wembley the other week today's match should really be sold out or close to it.

danthefan · 26-04-2014 9:45am

sydneybound wrote: »

Anyone know is twickenham sold out today? After having 83,000 at Wembley the other week today's match should really be sold out or close to it.

Not even close. As of last week there were 25k tickets sold.

Molester Stallone · 26-04-2014 9:57am

No way would this match sell out, Sarries have approx 10k capacity at home,couple of thou Clermont fans to travel, including casual Sarries fans, that would make 20k going, you might get another 10-15k genuine rugby fans going as well, but that's your lot I'd think

danthefan · 26-04-2014 10:17am

Saracens just don't really have the bandwaggon the Irish provinces do. But it'll be a real shame to the see the SF of Europe's premier club competition played in a third full stadium.

sydneybound · 26-04-2014 10:21am

That's a very poor attendance. Piss poor infact.

Wasps got 30,000 at a league game last week at Twickers. For a euro semi-final you would expect at least 50,000 from a major English club.

Different I know but that match would sell out in the Aviva.

Edit - I went on ticketmaster and you can get tickets for £16, that's dirt cheap. If your only getting 25,000 at prices as cheap as this your in a spot of bother.

Molester Stallone · 26-04-2014 10:23am

danthefan wrote: »

Saracens just don't really have the bandwaggon the Irish provinces do. But it'll be a real shame to the see the SF of Europe's premier club competition played in a third full stadium.

The semi final if a now defunct tourney that the English clubs weren't commited to would maybe a little more accurate perhaps?
Could explain the lack of paying customers

danthefan · 26-04-2014 10:26am

Molester Stallone wrote: »

The semi final if a now defunct tourney that the English clubs weren't commited to would maybe a little more accurate perhaps?
Could explain the lack of paying customers

If they make a SF next season I don't think you'll see any change in the attendance. The problem isn't the clubs being committed, it's convincing the average man on the street who quite frankly doesn't give a toss what the tournament is called to go to the game. Saracens have a relatively small core of fans and they don't seem to be appealing to a wider audience.

ArmchairQB · 26-04-2014 10:42am

Yeah nothing to do with the tournament, Saracens just don't have that big of a fan base, London hasn't warmed to their style of rugby and there are only so many South Africans in London

Molester Stallone · 26-04-2014 10:46am

danthefan wrote: »

If they make a SF next season I don't think you'll see any change in the attendance. The problem isn't the clubs being committed, it's convincing the average man on the street who quite frankly doesn't give a toss what the tournament is called to go to the game. Saracens have a relatively small core of fans and they don't seem to be appealing to a wider audience.

I meant English rugby fans in general. I would have thought that if Ulster v Clermont was on in Lansdowne rd there would be an amount of Leinster, Munster & Connacht fans wishing to go & watch Sivivatu & the like.

awec · 26-04-2014 10:57am

Allons enfants de la Patrie le jour de gloire est arrivé !

Come on Clermont, destroy this lot today.

thomond2006 · 26-04-2014 11:15am

G'wan Farrell, all of boards is behind you. Take our advice and you'll have a great day at the office.

We reckon you could take Jamie Cudmore in a fight.

Eod100 · 26-04-2014 11:28am

thomond2006 wrote: »

G'wan Farrell, all of boards is behind you. Take our advice and you'll have a great day at the office.

We reckon you could take Jamie Cudmore in a fight.

Sure Cudmore's still in the bold books since his rumble with O'Connell.. :P How about Hines instead?!

No fan of Ashton but he's 23/10 to score a try today.. Backed it so probably guarantees he doesn't score now..

Taco Corp · 26-04-2014 1:19pm

I've never wanted a side to lose as much as I want Saracens to lose.

WorldRugby99 · 26-04-2014 2:34pm

Re attendances
I dont think you can compare club and provinces. Fans in ireland have really bought into the provinces(unlike in wales),the heineken cup has been massive for irish fans,much more so than the league.No one has bought into the heineken like the irish. The attendances in the 90s were not that great but success has obviously helped feed the popularity. Ulster or munster represent an entire province and attract fans from around the whole area so have large catchment areas.
If you notice attendances in france and england-european games get no more,sometimes even less than league games.The league really does come first.
As for saracens,you cant just invent fans,They have moved around a few times over the years,that never helps.They are in a very multi-cultural city where to many rugby is alien and football hugely popular and they simply dont have the traditional fanbase of say a leicester or gloucester. But they have made progress-back in the 90s they were getting about 1500-2000 fans. People may not like the gimmicks to attract fans but what else are they supposed to do?
They should have played this game at a smaller venue-i hate games with rows and rows of empty seats-no atmosphere.

OldRio · 26-04-2014 3:10pm

Yeah the population in London (8 million):rolleyes: is really tiny compared to the provinces.

WorldRugby99 · 26-04-2014 3:19pm

OldRio wrote: »

Yeah the population in London (8 million):rolleyes: is really tiny compared to the provinces.

Not sure if you have been to London but there are just one or two foreign people- what do people from bangladesh,pakistan,greece etc know about rugby? Its a totally alien sport. In most of the inner city state schools rugby simply isnt played. London simply isnt a rugby city-its a football one-saturated with clubs like arsenal,chelsea,tottenham,Fulham,QPR etc.Most kids want to go to the football.You cant just invent interest.
international rugby is very popular-it attracts the casual sports fan-club rugby never will-its of a minority interest-with small(albeit loyal) fanbases.
Similar to saracens is sale in the northwest-an area saturated not just with big football clubs but rugby league ones too-its very difficult to increase that fan base.

phog · 26-04-2014 3:22pm

G'wan Sarries.

Two away teams have never won the semi finals before, tomorrow's task is big enough aside from having to create history as well.

OldRio · 26-04-2014 3:25pm

Well its along shot, but perhaps they might be some in that 8 million who like rugby.
There is one rugby club in this county. One. GAA football rules the roost around these parts.
Rugby is far down the pecking order in this country in regard to sport.
Yet we get decent attendances.

former legend · 26-04-2014 3:39pm

ArmchairQB wrote: »

Yeah nothing to do with the tournament, Saracens just don't have that big of a fan base, London hasn't warmed to their style of rugby and there are only so many South Africans in London

Only last month, Saracens and Harlequins set the world record attendance for a club rugby game. Unless the vast majority of the 84,000 people at Wembley were Quins fans, there is something wrong with your argument.

If they can get that number for a regular Premiership game (albeit a London derby) but can only get a fraction of that for a Heineken semi-final, then it more than likely is something to do with the tournament.

matthew8 · 26-04-2014 3:40pm

It's clearly to do with the fact they could only advertise this a few weeks in advance. They got 60k for their pool game with Toulouse.

razorblunt · 26-04-2014 3:41pm

Sarries would have been better off loading the Stoop up and playing there.

Podge_irl · 26-04-2014 3:45pm

matthew8 wrote: »

It's clearly to do with the fact they could only advertise this a few weeks in advance. They got 60k for their pool game with Toulouse.

Probably also something to do with not giving away shed loads of tickets.

former legend · 26-04-2014 3:46pm

razorblunt wrote: »

Sarries would have been better off loading the Stoop up and playing there.

It wasn't up to Sarries, it's (technically) the ERC who decide.

ArmchairQB · 26-04-2014 3:46pm

Going to be a bruising physical battle

Diabhal Beag · 26-04-2014 3:48pm

Was expecting a lot more than that at it.

freyners · 26-04-2014 3:48pm

Anyone explain what they meant by off the chest for byrne there?

razorblunt · 26-04-2014 3:48pm

former legend wrote: »

It wasn't up to Sarries, it's (technically) the ERC who decide.

Yeah, sorry didn't mean to indicate it was their choice, more that it would be better for them.

ArmchairQB · 26-04-2014 3:48pm

I thought the decision was up to the club or home union to nominate a suitable venue that is not there home ground bu agre enough to facilitate a decent size crowd

Podge_irl · 26-04-2014 3:49pm

freyners wrote: »

Anyone explain what they meant by off the chest for byrne there?

Can't knock on off the chest.

ArmchairQB · 26-04-2014 3:49pm

Of all the plonkers to open up the. Scoring!

razorblunt · 26-04-2014 3:49pm

13/2 looks good, thought there was a forward pass by the touch line there,

2013-4 Heineken Cup Discussion Thread

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