72 Previous Convictions!!!

quintana76 · 21-12-2017 7:11am

Keep it up young man. Make it 100 nay 200. Keep the money flowing for the legal profession. The public interest, what public interest?

Kermit.de.frog · 21-12-2017 7:39am

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

They clearly don't or if they do it doesn't help to reduce crime. The US has slightly higher crime rates than Ireland and more recidivism at a massively increased cost to the tax payer.

Whats needed is a working system.

Ok.

Let me ask you about the young lad (21 I believe) driving in Monaghan who was murdered a couple of years back after stopping for a hitch hiker with multiple convictions.

Do you know what happened to that guy?

Let me tell you.

He was on the ground after being thrown down and hit with a brick over the head again and again and again and again (I think it was almost 50 times in the end). That person who done that was on bail and suppose to sign on at a Garda station in Dundalk. He had numerous convictions.

Now I ask you - is it worth it for your liberal view? What do you think most sensible people think?

Because it angers me and the silent majority I can assure you.

And our so called justice system is disgusting. It's not justice.

These people prey on others with your backup defending their "human rights".

s7ryf3925pivug · 21-12-2017 7:52am

Japan has a low crime rate, so I looked up what their system is like. Corrupt and brutal apparently.

https://qz.com/693437/japans-notoriously-ruthless-criminal-justice-system-is-getting-a-face-lift/

Surprised that they don't even have a jury system. I think the USA let almost anyone be tried by jury. In Ireland juries are actually relatively uncommon outside severe crimes. Juries greatly reduce the potential for corruption... But hey, my simplistic research indicates corruption actually has a preventative effect on crime ðŸ˜†

Samuel T. Cogley · 21-12-2017 8:32am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Ok.

Let me ask you about the young lad (21 I believe) driving in Monaghan who was murdered a couple of years back after stopping for a hitch hiker with multiple convictions.

Do you know what happened to that guy?

Let me tell you.

He was on the ground after being thrown down and hit with a brick over the head again and again and again and again (I think it was almost 50 times in the end). That person who done that was on bail and suppose to sign on at a Garda station in Dundalk. He had numerous convictions.

Now I ask you - is it worth it for your liberal view? What do you think most sensible people think?

Because it angers me and the silent majority I can assure you.

And our so called justice system is disgusting. It's not justice.

These people prey on others with your backup defending their "human rights".

So you're still saying you'd prefer the above to happen over a working system? Plenty of violent murders in the US.

Kermit.de.frog · 21-12-2017 8:42am

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

So you're still saying you'd prefer the above to happen over a working system? Plenty of violent murders in the US.

Should the guy who committed that murder have been put a way for life before it? Answer the question.

Samuel T. Cogley · 21-12-2017 9:10am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Should the guy who committed that murder have been put a way for life before it? Answer the question.

Anyone who has committed a murder is on a life tariff.

Kermit.de.frog · 21-12-2017 9:17am

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Anyone who has committed a murder is on a life tariff.

That's not what I asked you. I asked you should that murderer with multiple convictions have been locked up beforehand.

It's a simple yes or no.

Samuel T. Cogley · 21-12-2017 9:19am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

That's not what I asked you. I asked you should that murderer with multiple convictions have been locked up beforehand.

It's a simple yes or no.

It's not a simple yes or no. It as all criminal cases do turns on it's own set of facts. Should there have been a proper rehabilitation scheme in place and should he have been kept in until he was deemed not to be a danger any more? Probably.

Kermit.de.frog · 21-12-2017 9:24am

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

It's not a simple yes or no. It as all criminal cases do turns on it's own set of facts. Should there have been a proper rehabilitation scheme in place and should he have been kept in until he was deemed not to be a danger any more? Probably.

I just told you that this poor young man was hit over the head on the ground with a brick over and over and over and over and over again.

He was not in jail - he was on bail, multiple convictions let loose.

Now I am asking you for the final time whether he should have been locked up.

Well?

Samuel T. Cogley · 21-12-2017 9:26am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I just told you that this poor young man was hit over the head on the ground with a brick over and over and over and over and over again.

He was not in jail - he was on bail, multiple convictions let loose.

Now I am asking you for the final time whether he should have been locked up.

Well?

You have my answer above. These things need to be dealt with properly from the start. Thats usually petty crime way back in a persons life.

Kermit.de.frog · 21-12-2017 9:27am

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

You have my answer above. These things need to be dealt with properly from the start. Thats usually petty crime way back in a persons life.

Say that to the family of the deceased and see what happens to you.

Samuel T. Cogley · 21-12-2017 9:31am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Say that to the family of the deceased and see what happens to you.

Retribution isn't justice. There of course needs to be a punishment aspect but the victims family is never going to be best placed to make an objective decision.

You're still obfuscating the question I asked you though. Why import a broken system, why not import a working one?

Kermit.de.frog · 21-12-2017 9:34am

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Retribution isn't justice. There of course needs to be a punishment aspect but the victims family is never going to be best placed to make an objective decision.

You're still obfuscating the question I asked you though. Why import a broken system, why not import a working one?

It's not broken.

We have scumbags walking our streets with 50+ convictions - most psychotic undoubtedly.

Your ideal is have them among us.

They can not be helped - get it through your head. You are deluded.

They should be locked up.

Samuel T. Cogley · 21-12-2017 9:36am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It's not broken.

We have scumbags walking our streets with 50+ convictions - most psychotic undoubtedly.

Your ideal is have them among us.

They can not be helped - get it through your head. You are deluded.

They should be locked up.

Yeah yeah, don't answer the question posed -as you can't.

Mrcaramelchoc · 21-12-2017 9:37am

I would put money on it that the scumbag that murdered that woman in Limerick has loads of previous convictions as well.just put the ****ers in the ground and be done with it.

Kermit.de.frog · 21-12-2017 9:39am

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Yeah yeah, don't answer the question posed -as you can't.

You are DELUDED.

We should have the US system here and it would work. Not the death penalty (although I would argue we have candidates) but you'd clean our streets pretty quick.

Kermit.de.frog · 21-12-2017 9:40am

Mrcaramelchoc wrote: »

I would put money on it that the scumbag that murdered that woman in Limerick has loads of previous convictions as well.just put the ****ers in the ground and be done with it.

It's disgusting that they prey on two types - the do gooders then the victims.

realdanbreen · 21-12-2017 9:42am

techdiver wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0201/cumminsj.html

This is really gone beyond a joke at this stage. How can we let this type of scum walk the street with 72 previous convictions.:mad:

In the US he would have been down for life a long time ago. We need a three strike rule introduced in Ireland.

We had certain politicians organising crowds on the streets protesting over having to pay their way for a water service. Why can't they do the same about the way violent thugs can roam the country at will?

Kermit.de.frog · 21-12-2017 9:47am

realdanbreen wrote: »

We had certain politicians organising crowds on the streets protesting over having to pay their way for a water service. Why can't they do the same about the way violent thugs can roam the country at will?

Where are Rich Boy Barrett and Ruth Coppinger?

Oh sorry a proportion of their vote comes from there.

FutureGuy · 21-12-2017 9:50am

Sure they'll just keep at it and why should they stop such a lucrative career!

Get away with it? Lots of reward! So few Garda stations now, you'll be in and out in no time!

Get caught? No problem! Free legal aid, roll out the sob stories of tough childhood and you'll get away with a laughable sentence. Go for that high score of convictions!

Going to prison? Noooooice! Free food, tv, activities. What's not to like! Meet some new for when you get out way too early.

Reported thefts are dropping, probably due to the fact people know it's fuxking useless to do so.

They have zero fear. It's close to a win-win for them. If the system doesn't change drastically, this will continue. Wouldn't be surprised to hear stories in the near future where a group of vigilantes find one of the persons responsible for beating an elderly person to death and go all Peaky ****ing Blinders on them.

The government have a lot to answer for.

knipex · 21-12-2017 9:51am

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Retribution isn't justice. There of course needs to be a punishment aspect but the victims family is never going to be best placed to make an objective decision.

You're still obfuscating the question I asked you though. Why import a broken system, why not import a working one?

I cases such as this, (multiple repeat convictions for assault violent disorder etc) prison, incarceration etc is not about (and the argument that it is is partially the cause of the mess we are in) rehabilitation, its not about retribution, its about protecting society.. Plain and simple.

Somewhere along the line this got confused..

In the absence of the death penalty the only viable solution is to keep them away from society, ie lock them up and throw away the key.

FutureGuy · 21-12-2017 9:52am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

You are DELUDED.

We should have the US system here and it would work. Not the death penalty (although I would argue we have candidates) but you'd clean our streets pretty quick.

No one should hold up the US prison system as a good example to follow.

Samuel T. Cogley · 21-12-2017 10:22am

knipex wrote: »

I cases such as this, (multiple repeat convictions for assault violent disorder etc) prison, incarceration etc is not about (and the argument that it is is partially the cause of the mess we are in) rehabilitation, its not about retribution, its about protecting society.. Plain and simple.

Somewhere along the line this got confused..

In the absence of the death penalty the only viable solution is to keep them away from society, ie lock them up and throw away the key.

Not once in this thread have I suggested that people shouldn't be kept in for a long period of time, the issue is what you do with people during that time. Simply increasing sentences doesn't work - see US system.

quintana76 · 21-12-2017 10:27am

Give him another chance. Remember 72 shallows doth not make a summer. Eh! It does actually. I think I am getting something wrong somewhere.

quintana76 · 21-12-2017 10:30am

quintana76 wrote: »

Give him another chance. Remember 72 shallows doth not make a summer. Eh! It does actually. I think I am getting something wrong somewhere.

...swallows. ****e predictive text.

Akrasia · 21-12-2017 10:39am

The Norwegian system seems to work. Sentences are low, but the focus is mostly on rehabilitation and if the prisoners don't demonstrate that they are rehabilitated, they can have their sentence extended indefinitely.

Punishing prisoners might sooth your rage, but rehabilitating them is what makes the society safe.

In Ireland you can be sent to prison, spend your entire time fighting and taking drugs, and then get released back onto the street in a worse state than when you went in. Its madness

Nermal · 21-12-2017 11:22am

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Not once in this thread have I suggested that people shouldn't be kept in for a long period of time, the issue is what you do with people during that time. Simply increasing sentences doesn't work - see US system.

The US doesn't lock people up often enough or for long enough either.

Three strikes should lead to indefinite imprisonment. If the sentence is indefinite, it doesn't really matter if someone is rehabilitated.

Wanderer78 · 21-12-2017 11:26am

Akrasia wrote: »

The Norwegian system seems to work. Sentences are low, but the focus is mostly on rehabilitation and if the prisoners don't demonstrate that they are rehabilitated, they can have their sentence extended indefinitely.

Punishing prisoners might sooth your rage, but rehabilitating them is what makes the society safe.

In Ireland you can be sent to prison, spend your entire time fighting and taking drugs, and then get released back onto the street in a worse state than when you went in. Its madness

you re probably wasting your ideas on such matters on this forum im afraid

knipex · 21-12-2017 1:52pm

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Not once in this thread have I suggested that people shouldn't be kept in for a long period of time, the issue is what you do with people during that time. Simply increasing sentences doesn't work - see US system.

In cases of multiple repeat convictions they should never get out.

They have shown they will not be rehabilitated and proven they are a risk and a danger to society. Any attempt to release them again is simply releasing an unacceptable, avoidable risk into society.

Its not about punishment, at this point is no longer about rehabilitation its about protecting society..

I would 100% agree that first offenders or even those with convictions for minor crimes should not be receiving long sentences and real attempt should be made at rehabilitation, they should be kept away from long term repeat offenders.

Society should give them a chance and indeed I believe an obligation to do so but once that chance if thrown back in society's face then all obligations end..

replican · 24-01-2018 10:16am

The 10 years sentence didnt work same gent in custody again for alleged burgulary and aggrevated assault last december

sbsquarepants · 24-01-2018 11:02am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

You are DELUDED.

We should have the US system here and it would work. Not the death penalty (although I would argue we have candidates) but you'd clean our streets pretty quick.

I think our system here is pathetic, 50, 80, 100 convictions it's an absolute farce.
But why do you think the US system would work here when it clearly doesn't work in the US? America is not some utopian paradise, there are vast areas you wouldn't dare walk the streets in!

Hector Bellend · 24-01-2018 11:22am

techdiver wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0201/cumminsj.html

This is really gone beyond a joke at this stage. How can we let this type of scum walk the street with 72 previous convictions.:mad:

In the US he would have been down for life a long time ago. We need a three strike rule introduced in Ireland.

No he wouldn't. The law is an ass in the United States. The same way it is in most other countries.

What makes the bail system in the United States better than anywhere else?

An example of the U.S system. An alternative take.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/25/california-bail-system-tiffany-li-joseph-warren

https://www.vox.com/2016/8/24/12415268/bail-jail-prison-innocent-crime

If you look at the bureau of justice statistics (for the u.s) thre are lots of states for repeat offending.

Hector Bellend · 24-01-2018 11:30am

The U.K system

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9238907/Englands-most-prolific-criminal-has-567-convictions.html

nice_guy80 · 24-01-2018 11:56am

we just don't want to spend the money on the proper prison and correction system
that requires treatment for offenders, some actual training for them in prison and then proper monitoring of them after release

Rumpy Pumpy · 24-01-2018 12:01pm

A quick gawk at social media shows that this guy is out and about and being a proper ‘full time mad bastard’ again.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 24-01-2018 6:29pm

I cant post the link but looks like Devine was brought in for an aggravated burglary in Dec. So much for rehabilitation. He was clearly released before the 10 ten years were up, so I can only assume that he goes back in for whats left of that sentence and what ever else is added (please dont tell me it is concurrent).

So much for rehabilitation, since he wasnt rehabilitated can we assume that Norway would have locked him up for good?

Potential-Monke · 24-01-2018 7:39pm

Take from me, there is a very soft touch with criminals in this country. But you'll do the full term for not paying a TV licence.

pablo128 · 25-01-2018 1:45pm

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Take from me, there is a very soft touch with criminals in this country. But you'll do the full term for not paying a TV licence.

No you won't. It's well known you will be back home the same day you were brought to the prison for not buying a TV licence.

harry Bailey esq · 25-01-2018 1:54pm

pablo128 wrote: »

No you won't. It's well known you will be back home the same day you were brought to the prison for not buying a TV licence.

Spot on. Same with non payment of a fine. Bring you into the joy, bring you down to the B-base, give you a pint of milk and a chicken fillet roll, barely give you time to eat it and then send you on your merry way.

Samuel T. Cogley · 25-01-2018 2:53pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

So much for rehabilitation, since he wasnt rehabilitated can we assume that Norway would have locked him up for good?

Nope, but Norway also has recidivism, however it's lower as they do more rehabilitation in their prisons. It's not the only way to do it the Japanese have a harsh prison system that works for them, with shortish sentences though. Locking people up and throwing away the key isn't an option purely on cost grounds, that said I'm all for a prison system that keeps people in until they are risk assessed to no longer pose a threat.

Sentencing should be taken out of the hands of Judges and handed over to the prison system itself. The way we approach sentencing is completely arseways and stuck in the 17th century. The crime committed should have little bearing on time served. Someone who shoplifts might need 3 years, someone who murders the rapist of their teenage daughter might need a few weeks - it's highly unlikely they'd find themselves in that situation again but some assessment needs to be carried out.

It would never happen as it's simply too costly to do so.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 25-01-2018 9:47pm

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Nope, but Norway also has recidivism, however it's lower as they do more rehabilitation in their prisons. It's not the only way to do it the Japanese have a harsh prison system that works for them, with shortish sentences though. Locking people up and throwing away the key isn't an option purely on cost grounds, that said I'm all for a prison system that keeps people in until they are risk assessed to no longer pose a threat.

Sentencing should be taken out of the hands of Judges and handed over to the prison system itself. The way we approach sentencing is completely arseways and stuck in the 17th century. The crime committed should have little bearing on time served. Someone who shoplifts might need 3 years, someone who murders the rapist of their teenage daughter might need a few weeks - it's highly unlikely they'd find themselves in that situation again but some assessment needs to be carried out.

It would never happen as it's simply too costly to do so.

That’s not going to fly. Despite what some claim the justice system is about deterrence and punishment. Not just rehabilitation.

A pure rehabilitation system would release a drunken driver who killed quite a few people provided he gave up his licence. He can’t do it again can he? Or a serial rapist who agrees to chemical castration. Released immediately.

On the flip side your shoplifter may not convince the shrinks he is reformed and be in for life.

And rehabilitation could have serious implications for political crimes. In some European countries there are laws against hate. Which is fine, I suppose.

However imagine someone arrested for anti Islamic speech. Imagine he refuses to recant. He is also in for life.

Back to Devine. He’s killed someone and got < 8 years. He is now brought in for aggravated burgulary. What’s the penalty for not being actually rehabilitated?

old_aussie · 27-01-2018 1:50am

techdiver wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0201/cumminsj.html

In the US he would have been down for life a long time ago. We need a three strike rule introduced in Ireland.

One day boardsies detest everything US and the next day they want to be just like the US.

Make your Feckin minds up!

techdiver · 27-01-2018 8:56am

old_aussie wrote: »

One day boardsies detest everything US and the next day they want to be just like the US.

Make your Feckin minds up!

You do realise you can like certain things about a country and dislike other. It's not like supporting a football team it's more nuanced than that.

I would like to clarify my point above though. I would not like an identical system to the US, whereby someone can go down for life for something small like shoplifting, but in the scenario where we have people in society who are beyond redemption and/or rehabilitation we need to protect the rest of society from these scum.

I firmly believe in second chances and the prison system should definitely focus more on rehabilitation, like the kind in Norway, but we also need to accept that some people are beyond reforming and the wider society needs to be protected from them.

Pawwed Rig · 27-01-2018 11:22pm

old_aussie wrote: »

One day boardsies detest everything US and the next day they want to be just like the US.

Make your Feckin minds up!

boardsies are not a hive mind.

Grab All Association · 28-01-2018 4:38am

Lobotomies would probably work for people like this.

erica74 · 28-01-2018 9:21am

I think we can all agree that things need to change but who is going to bring these changes in and what are the changes going to be? I don't have faith in any politician currently in power to make changes to the judicial system. From what I can see, it runs on keeping their mates in jobs.

I agree with posts talking about rehabilitation. I understand it's very frustrating to be the victim of a crime (I've been there unfortunately) and hear people talking about "rehabilitation" but it would be a big step towards changing the attitudes and actions of prisoners. And maybe also integrating Norway's system of extending sentences indefinitely, would be a good option.
As it is, what our prison system currently does, really doesn't work and it is not respected or feared.

Wanderer78 · 28-01-2018 9:58am

erica74 wrote:

I agree with posts talking about rehabilitation. I understand it's very frustrating to be the victim of a crime (I've been there unfortunately) and hear people talking about "rehabilitation" but it would be a big step towards changing the attitudes and actions of prisoners. And maybe also integrating Norway's system of extending sentences indefinitely, would be a good option. As it is, what our prison system currently does, really doesn't work and it is not respected or feared.

Unfortunately many in society wish to effectively punish people who commit crimes, which is understandable, I've been a victim of crimes also, but this is where we re going wrong. Most if not all committers of crimes have a set of complex issues and needs, of which we have decided to largely ignore, and in fact in many cases we have exasperated their issues by labeling them as such and therefore treating them as such. I would suggest talking to people that have highly complex issues that can cause behavioural issues such as impulsivity, this would be common in mental health issues such as bipolar, borderline personality disorders, various forms of autism such as adhd etc, some criminals would have these issues. I suspect your idea of 'fear' will not work with rehabilitating these kind of issues, in fact I suspect it would exasperate them.

na1 · 29-01-2018 4:44pm

knipex wrote: »

In cases of multiple repeat convictions they should never get out.

BTW, the so called 'life sentence' in ROI is reviewed after 7 years, and currently lasts 22 years on average, according to statistics.
(it was only 7.5 years 30 years ago)

na1 · 29-01-2018 5:04pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I'm wondering would helping people with complex issues such as mental health problems, behavioural problems, personality disorders, learning disabilities etc etc, at an early stage, be any benefit in these situations!

I know the best treatment for scumbags with such mental issues: electric chair

knipex · 29-01-2018 6:01pm

na1 wrote: »

BTW, the so called 'life sentence' in ROI is reviewed after 7 years, and currently lasts 22 years on average, according to statistics.
(it was only 7.5 years 30 years ago)

I am aware of that, its a problem

To quote my origonal post in full

knipex wrote: »

In cases of multiple repeat convictions they should never get out.

They have shown they will not be rehabilitated and proven they are a risk and a danger to society. Any attempt to release them again is simply releasing an unacceptable, avoidable risk into society.

Its not about punishment, at this point is no longer about rehabilitation its about protecting society..

I would 100% agree that first offenders or even those with convictions for minor crimes should not be receiving long sentences and real attempt should be made at rehabilitation, they should be kept away from long term repeat offenders.

Society should give them a chance and indeed I believe an obligation to do so but once that chance if thrown back in society's face then all obligations end..

At at some point we have to accept that rehabilitation is never going to happen, at that point its not even about punishment but about protecting society..

72 Previous Convictions!!!

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