Ordering Certificates

LellsBells · 26-07-2016 11:47pm #1

Hi All,

I'm just looking for a bit of advice please. I need to order a marriage certificate for my Great-Great-Grandparents. According to the church records on IrishGenealogy.ie they were married in St. Agatha's Church in Dublin in 1895. Unfortunately there is no image attached and I cannot find anything else about the event online.

I have also found baptism details for 2 of their children which I believe died young as they are not on the 1901 census.

I'm just wondering is it possible to order marriage/death certificates without knowing the index numbers?

Thanks x

pinkypinky · 27-07-2016 9:52am

Welcome!

If you have the two names of the individuals & date, you can go to the civil records section of the same website, and search for a marriage in 1895 between them in Dublin North. It should return an index record with both their names (go to the advanced search) and the date of the wedding. You can then use the GRID reference supplied to order using this form and order the cert matching that reference from the GRO directly. If you're able, you can also take this reference into Werburgh St where they have a reading room but you can order by post/fax using the form.

If you want to give us the names, we can find the reference for you.

LellsBells · 27-07-2016 3:56pm

[font=Arial, sans-serif]Hi Pinky, thanks for replying to my post. There doesn t appear to be any details of their marriage in the civil records section. I ve searched on FMP too and had no luck. [/font]

[font=Arial, sans-serif]I keep thinking that perhaps the church record is incorrect because their first child was born on 12[/font]^{[font=Arial, sans-serif]th[/font]}[font=Arial, sans-serif] Oct 1895 just 5 days after their wedding day. I m sure that s not unheard of but I just thought, in those days, they probably would ve married earlier on in the pregnancy.[/font]

[font=Arial, sans-serif]I would really appreciate if you could look up the reference. Their names are William (Gulielmus) O Brien and Catherine Lyons. They married on 7^th Oct 1895 in St. Agatha s Church. Their father s names are James O Brien and Patrick Lyons. Thank you.[/font]

pinkypinky · 27-07-2016 4:21pm

Link to the church record.

I haven't found the marriage either in the civil indexes on irishgenealogy or FMP (which is running slowly right now).

It's possible that there's a typo in the church record for the marriage and it took place in a different year...I widened out the search to 1890 onwards but found nothing.

2 options now:
Pay the GRO to do a search of their own records
Contact the church directly requesting a search of the original.

What does the census in 1911 say for how many years they were married?

pinkypinky · 27-07-2016 4:25pm

Also worth getting the civil birth cert of the eldest child just to confirm the parents' correct names. However, there are 7 Patrick O'Brien births in Dublin North in 1895. One flaw of this new GRID reference system - can't tell which part of the year each child was born. With the old system (still workable on FMP), we can cut it to the final quarter of the year.

Likely to be this child:
First name(s) Patrick James
Last name O'Brien
Registration year 1895
Registered quarter/year Oct - Dec 1895
Registration district Dublin North
Volume 2
Page 422

LellsBells · 27-07-2016 5:50pm

I know that the parent's names are correct because I have birth certificates for my Great-Grandmother and her younger brother.

Unfortunately I can't find them on the 1911 census. I've found them in 1901 and I've looked under every variation of the name O'Brien (that I can think of) but I've had no success at all. I've been looking on and off for years now. You actually helped me with this query around 6 years ago but I'm still none the wiser. The family is a complete mystery to me.

I'll contact the church and see if they can pull out the records for me.

Thanks again for your help. It's really appreciated. Also, thanks for your sticky. As I've said, I've been tracing my family on and off for years, whenever I come back to it I always revisit your sticky to remind me of the process

mickmackey1 · 28-07-2016 2:07am

Presumably this is they in 1901 -

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Mountjoy/Belmont_Place/1325465/

Can't find any trace in '11 either... could have emigrated of course.

KildareFan · 28-07-2016 10:47am

This might be the record for Catherine E O'Brien in the 1901 Census
Name Ellen O'Brien
Date of Birth 29 May 1899
Group Registration ID 9929267
SR District/Reg Area Dublin North
Sex Female
Mother's Birth Surname Lyons

KildareFan · 28-07-2016 10:52am

And this is William O'Brien, who was one month old in the 1901 Census. His name wasn't recorded on the birth record:
Name UNKNOWN O BRIEN
Date of Birth 01 March 1901
Group Registration ID 245955
SR District/Reg Area Dublin
Sex Male
Mother's Birth Surname LYONS

tabbey · 28-07-2016 12:14pm

LellsBells wrote: »

[font=Arial, sans-serif]Hi Pinky, thanks for replying to my post. There doesn t appear to be any details of their marriage in the civil records section. I ve searched on FMP too and had no luck. [/font]

[font=Arial, sans-serif]I keep thinking that perhaps the church record is incorrect because their first child was born on 12[/font]^{[font=Arial, sans-serif]th[/font]}[font=Arial, sans-serif] Oct 1895 just 5 days after their wedding day. I m sure that s not unheard of but I just thought, in those days, they probably would ve married earlier on in the pregnancy.[/font]

[font=Arial, sans-serif]I would really appreciate if you could look up the reference. Their names are William (Gulielmus) O Brien and Catherine Lyons. They married on 7^th Oct 1895 in St. Agatha s Church. Their father s names are James O Brien and Patrick Lyons. Thank you.[/font]

It is quite plausible that they married shortly before the birth. Once the ring was on the finger before the waters broke, victorian standards were upheld.

I recall hearing in the (mid?) 1960s, of a bride going into labour at her wedding reception.

It is quite possible that the baby was born prematurely, in which case, an early death may have ensued.
My suspicion is that Patrick Christopher was a replacement for Patrick James. In those times, it was a regular occurrence for most families, especially in Dublin.

LellsBells · 28-07-2016 2:42pm

@mickmackey1
That's the correct family on the 1901 census. I m starting to think you could be right about them emigrating. A few of Catherine Lyons siblings moved to Walton in Liverpool so it s possible that they joined them. My Grandfather was born in 1921, my G-Grandmother (Catherine E) and her parents were living in Dublin then so I ve also just assumed that they never left. I think I'll need to broaden my search to cover UK records too.

Thanks for looking up the 1911 for me I sometimes feel like I ve overlooked something so it s nice to have fresh eyes looking at it too.

LellsBells · 28-07-2016 2:43pm

@KildareFan
Thanks for your help. I ve got birth certs for both of those children. Ellen O Brien was my G-Grandmother. She was Ellen on her birth cert but only a few days later she was baptised as Mary Catherine. Her name is Catherine E on the census form but Ellen on my Grandfather s birth cert & on her marriage details. Apparently all her friends called her Mary-Ellen she s not making life easy for me!

LellsBells · 28-07-2016 2:45pm

@tabbey
I ve always believed that couples got married before anyone could suspect there was a baby on the way. Although my Grandfather was illegitimate so I should be more open minded!

[font=Calibri, sans-serif]I think you re correct about Patrick Christopher. Thanks for looking it up. Unfortunately it looks like neither of them survived. I will need to ask the GRO to search for their death certificates because I can t find any details online, all I know if that Patrick James died before 1896 and Patrick Christopher died before 1901.[/font]

tabbey · 28-07-2016 8:21pm

I looked at the Glasnevin Trust website, but did not purchase any records.

There were many baby / toddler Patrick O'Briens buried in Glasnevin cemetery between 1895 and 1901. Without purchasing records, it is not possible to identify any parent, grave number or date of death.

1895 : one child age 3 weeks.
1896 : one child age 3 weeks.
1897 : 2 children both age 1.
1898 : 2 children, ages 5 months and 2 months.
1899 : 2 children, ages 3 and 1.
1900 : 1 child aged 3.
1901 : 1 child aged 4 months.

If you call into the cemetery visitor centre / museum, and speak to the genealogist there, you may be able to get help in sorting the correct patricks from the wrong ones.

LellsBells · 29-07-2016 2:35pm

tabbey wrote: »

I looked at the Glasnevin Trust website, but did not purchase any records.

There were many baby / toddler Patrick O'Briens buried in Glasnevin cemetery between 1895 and 1901. Without purchasing records, it is not possible to identify any parent, grave number or date of death.

1895 : one child age 3 weeks.
1896 : one child age 3 weeks.
1897 : 2 children both age 1.
1898 : 2 children, ages 5 months and 2 months.
1899 : 2 children, ages 3 and 1.
1900 : 1 child aged 3.
1901 : 1 child aged 4 months.

If you call into the cemetery visitor centre / museum, and speak to the genealogist there, you may be able to get help in sorting the correct patricks from the wrong ones.

Thank you so much for this Tabbey. It never occurred to me to look at Glasnevin's site. I'm living in the UK at the moment but I will definitely pay a visit to the museum when I'm home in September.

L1011 · 29-07-2016 2:42pm

The desk staff willingly gave away otherwise pay info to me in Glasnevin - although I had just walked out of the cafe with stuff I'd clearly bought there; and was in full funeral clobber so that may not always be the case.

LellsBells · 29-07-2016 2:52pm

I had completely forgotten all about their website. I must've been aware of it at some point because I have details of grave numbers in my notes from a few years ago.

spurious · 29-07-2016 3:05pm

I might have some vouchers left over from a school visit to Glasnevin. Let me have a root about here and I'll PM you if I find them.

LellsBells · 29-07-2016 3:30pm

spurious wrote: »

I might have some vouchers left over from a school visit to Glasnevin. Let me have a root about here and I'll PM you if I find them.

That would be brilliant, thank you

cobham · 01-08-2016 9:14am

I had success in searching for relatives In Glasvevin with a common name and I was even missing the christian name. Without having to pay for full record, I was able to do a search on the surname in the 'advanced search' section by entering there a street name/area location. I would have confidence in the accuracy of Glasnevin records. Many babies were just left in the office for burial at some stage in the 'angels plot' but they say they will have a record and reference for each. Many people were not fortunate enough to have a family plot but might be buried with up to a dozen strangers and these details are all given on the full record.

LellsBells · 02-08-2016 5:43pm

Thanks for the tip Cobham, I've been able to narrow down my search for 2 relatives by using part of their address. It's a great help!

Ordering Certificates

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