Interesting Finds

-Leelo- · 04-04-2016 8:06pm #1

Would be interested to hear of anything interesting you have discovered while doing your family history research.
I really only expected to find out names, addresses and dates but it's surprising what else has cropped up, for example I discovered that my Great Grandparents were 1st cousins (as an aside, would this have been common? They married in the 1920s)
Also found out my Great Grandfather was a POW in Limburg during WW1, my family never knew this as it seems his son (My Grandfather) was never told about it.

Would love to hear if any of you have made any interesting or surprising discoveries

pinkypinky · 04-04-2016 9:45pm

Were the cousins CoI? In my experience, it's much more common in smaller Protestant communities in Ireland than in the RCC.

-Leelo- · 04-04-2016 10:59pm

No, they were catholic. My family tree is all over the place now with them being related, it can get very confusing, as if it isn't confusing enough already with them all naming their kids after themselves and their parents and siblings

P. Breathnach · 05-04-2016 12:44pm

I would have been very disappointed if all I had found was names, addresses and dates.

Yes, I have discovered a number of stories, like a great-grandfather who joined the army in the 1850s and deserted a number of times, finally ending up in India before making his way back to Ireland to establish a family.

I like to write mini-biographies of ancestors.

shar01 · 05-04-2016 1:59pm

My great granny did time in Tralee women's prison (only a week but still).

My grandmother's house was named after the townland her father came from so a few things dropped into place after that.

My 5th great aunt married the manager of Lagavulin whisky distillery. Hic!

A very distant cousin appears to have murdered his wife but got off because the only witness, their daughter, thought it was a dream and was not a reliable witness.

Another distant cousin was killed with her lover in a car accident in an underpass in Paris. Alot of people think there was a cover-up and that she was murdered

pedroeibar1 · 05-04-2016 2:17pm

-Leelo- wrote: »

........I discovered that my Great Grandparents were 1st cousins (as an aside, would this have been common? They married in the 1920s)

It would have been very, very uncommon. Are you sure? I understood that the RC Church did not allow first cousins to marry and that second cousins could, but only with a dispensation from the bishop. Third cousins and further out did marry each other and it’s common to see queries here for the translation of the Latin ‘dispensatio – consang(uinati) in tertio grado’ or ‘disp. consang. 3o’ (dispensation - relatives in the third degree - i.e. second cousins). What does their marriage record state?

In several hundred marriages in my tree I've only one first cousin marriage that's in a branch of my family (1750's, C of E, wealthy) and they had no children.
Although the children of first cousin marriages have double the chance of genetic abnormality, the risks remain small at 5% instead of 3% for those who are unrelated.

pedroeibar1 · 05-04-2016 2:20pm

shar01 wrote: »

Another distant cousin was killed with her lover in a car accident in an underpass in Paris. Alot of people think there was a cover-up and that she was murdered

Rowdy lot, those Roches!

tabbey · 05-04-2016 3:07pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

It would have been very, very uncommon. Are you sure? I understood that the RC Church did not allow first cousins to marry and that second cousins could, but only with a dispensation from the bishop. Third cousins and further out did marry each other and it’s common to see queries here for the translation of the Latin ‘dispensatio – consang(uinati) in tertio grado’ or ‘disp. consang. 3o’ (dispensation - relatives in the third degree - i.e. second cousins). What does their marriage record state?

In several hundred marriages in my tree I've only one first cousin marriage that's in a branch of my family (1750's, C of E, wealthy) and they had no children.
Although the children of first cousin marriages have double the chance of genetic abnormality, the risks remain small at 5% instead of 3% for those who are unrelated.

One of my uncles married his first cousin, in the 1930s, and RC.

The church granted a dispensation for anything, provided the appropriate offering was paid to the designated officer. I think the parish priest could grant a dispensation for third cousins, the bishop for second cousins, and I suspect it may have been the pope for first cousins. If my uncle was still alive, I could ask him, but alas that is not the case.

If a couple were too poor to afford the offering, there was probably a temptation to move to another distant, parish, and chance their arm. They would not have got away with it in the twentieth century, but the chances were better before the church, and postal system became organised.

In pre famine rural Ireland, there was relatively little movement, and people generally married their third,fourth and fifth cousins. Every so often, some new blood appeared in the parish, enough to avoid inbreeding.
A cousin visited one of our ancestral homelands, met people, and was advised that most people in the area were distant relatives of us.

tabbey · 05-04-2016 3:24pm

[QUOTE=shar01;99292098

Another distant cousin was killed with her lover in a car accident in an underpass in Paris. Alot of people think there was a cover-up and that she was murdered

[/QUOTE]

A more sensible belief would be that it was manslaughter. Her boyfriend's father employed a drunken chauffeur, who was unfit to drive.
Gross negligence at the very least.

A lot of family historians try to prove a link to that family. My only connection is that her ancestor applauded my ancestor's equestrian performance back in 1868.

shar01 · 05-04-2016 4:18pm

tabbey wrote: »

A more sensible belief would be that it was manslaughter. Her boyfriend's father employed a drunken chauffeur, who was unfit to drive.
Gross negligence at the very least.

A lot of family historians try to prove a link to that family. My only connection is that her ancestor applauded my ancestor's equestrian performance back in 1868.

Ah sure you couldn't be keeping up with them. For me it's through the husband of my 3rd cousin twice removed.

I just love the fact that on my paternal side there's a connection to a member of the Ulster Volunteers while on the maternal side a possible connection to Civil War era IRA. That's what I'm trying to confirm at the moment.

Thomas from Presence · 05-04-2016 8:21pm

The most remarkable thing I discovered is that my GGgrandfather and his family emigrated during the famine and only two of them came back. The trail they left and story I was able to weave from it was extremely moving actually particularly since his name was Thomas Brunkard too.

His brother Samuel was left behind and whomever had him ended up leaving him in the North Dublin Union where he was described as "insane" - catchall phrase for any number of intellectual disabilities.

I've found newspaper ads from Thomas looking for his brother William who was separated from the family.

All of my great grand uncles and aunts were named after the brothers and sisters that didn't make it back.

On a more positive note I found out that one of my cousins had a child "out of wedlock" in the height of the theocracy. The family gathered around her and she wasn't sent away nor was her son taken from her.

Just yesterday I read how my GGgrandmother died in a house fire right around the corner from where I'm working at the moment.

To be honest in the main everything has been fairly benign but when it has been heavy it has been really heavy!

Hermy · 12-04-2016 5:45pm

I have two incidents of first cousins marrying and both of them are RC.

In one case the couple, who married in Dublin in 1893, had nine children, eight of whom died young or did not marry.
The one daughter who did marry ended up living in Mount Pleasant Buildings even though the families her parents came from were well to do. She had one child who died in infancy and she herself died within about a decade of marriage.
I often wonder if this family's demise had anything to do with the parents being first cousins.

In the other case of first cousins marrying the parents of the bride were a brother and sister of the parents of the groom which I'm told makes them double cousins.

tabbey · 13-04-2016 8:16pm

Hermy wrote: »

I often wonder if this family's demise had anything to do with the parents being first cousins.

No, it would only be a problem if successive generations were marrying very close relatives.
The royal houses of Europe are an example of a moderate level of inbreeding.

Hermy · 13-04-2016 9:18pm

tabbey wrote: »

No, it would only be a problem if successive generations were marrying very close relatives.

Good point on the genetics tabbey but I'm also wondering if the first cousins were cut adrift from their families after they tied the knot but it's probably not a question I can ever answer.

Hermy · 14-04-2016 9:32am

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

...I understood that the RC Church did not allow first cousins to marry and that second cousins could, but only with a dispensation from the bishop...

This latin note appears to refer to permission from the then Archbishop of Dublin William Walsh.

Thomas from Presence · 14-04-2016 9:46am

Hermy wrote: »

Good point on the genetics tabbey but I'm also wondering if the first cousins were cut adrift from their families after they tied the knot but it's probably not a question I can ever answer.

It's amazing the amount of rural intermarriage I've noted from COI cousins. I'm sure that this was all driven by practical concerns relating to maintaining ownership of land or expanding ownership.

When they did marry catholics the next generation was always catholic too.

tabbey · 14-04-2016 8:46pm

Hermy wrote: »

Good point on the genetics tabbey but I'm also wondering if the first cousins were cut adrift from their families after they tied the knot but it's probably not a question I can ever answer.

Fair comment, it could cause friction in some families, but my suspicion is that in many cases, these close marriages are arranged by the family.
Not always a recipe for success.

tabbey · 14-04-2016 9:00pm

Hermy wrote: »

This latin note appears to refer to permission from the then Archbishop of Dublin William Walsh.

Yes that is clearly first cousins being dispensated by the archbishop.

Of course Walsh was so strong in his views that he may have thought he was as good as the pope. It was notable that his predecessor was made a cardinal, but Walsh was not. The Vatican was not amused with his outspoken views.

Hermy · 14-04-2016 9:35pm

tabbey wrote: »

Fair comment, it could cause friction in some families, but my suspicion is that in many cases, these close marriages are arranged by the family.
Not always a recipe for success.

I hadn't thought of an arranged marriage.

tabbey wrote: »

Yes that is clearly first cousins being dispensated by the archbishop.

Of course Walsh was so strong in his views that he may have thought he was as good as the pope. It was notable that his predecessor was made a cardinal, but Walsh was not. The Vatican was not amused with his outspoken views.

I didn't know that Walsh was such a nice man but I'm not surprised either.;)

Alan259 · 17-04-2016 12:00pm

I discovered yesterday that my great great grand uncle was the first person to be prosecuted under the Veterinary Surgeons Act, 1931. He illegally performed operations on horses for farmers who couldn't afford to pay a professional vet to do the operation.

RGM · 17-04-2016 4:48pm

Growing up, we would always hear about how my grandfather's uncle from Donegal was boxing champion of the British Navy. I figured it was one of those exaggerated family stories that are thrown around all the time and maybe he had been a boxer and been in the navy, but was unlikely to be anyone of note. Well, turns out he was indeed two-time heavyweight boxing champion of the British Army and Navy and boxed professionally for 15 years. By no means a top-tier fighter in the general boxing world, but someone who won more than he lost.

What I never heard about growing up was how at one point he won a medal for being the most accurate gunner in the entire navy, or how he survived the torpedoing of his ship in 1914, or how he was at the Battle of Jutland.

And then, the most interesting thing of all: Last year I received an e-mail from a lady in England. One of this man's medals had randomly been found on a beach there. The family found a web page I had made for him, got in touch with me, and ended up sending it on. It's from 1901. I offered to pay and they originally just asked me to cover the shipping, but then ended up sending it on for free. How about that! I have it here next to me right now.

Earnest · 18-04-2016 11:26am

Thomas from Presence wrote: »

It's amazing the amount of rural intermarriage I've noted from COI cousins. I'm sure that this was all driven by practical concerns relating to maintaining ownership of land or expanding ownership.

I've been similarly surprised. And I don't think it was a question of land. I think it's more sociological. There would be few unattached people of the right religion and class in a district. And for a man, a wife might be cheaper than a housekeeper. And for a woman, a husband of decent repute might be preferable to living on the charity of a brother, and perhaps eventually of a nephew.

pedroeibar1 · 19-04-2016 10:48am

Alan259 wrote: »

I discovered yesterday that my great great grand uncle was the first person to be prosecuted under the Veterinary Surgeons Act, 1931. He illegally performed operations on horses for farmers who couldn't afford to pay a professional vet to do the operation.

That’s interesting. I’d guess he got off, unless he was calling himself a Vet. Section 46 (3) has an ‘out’ clause,
Do you know what the result was? Amazing what genealogy will entice you to research!

Alan259 · 19-04-2016 4:52pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

That’s interesting. I’d guess he got off, unless he was calling himself a Vet. Section 46 (3) has an ‘out’ clause,
Do you know what the result was? Amazing what genealogy will entice you to research!

He was charged £15 and told not to do it again.

Here is the advertisement that was published for him in the newspaper and the account of his trial and fine that were published in the various newspapers:

pedroeibar1 · 20-04-2016 3:16pm

Thanks for putting that up. reading the press coverage it was his adverts that caused him the grief. The ‘Authorities’ were looking for a test case and he walked right into it. I love the “Was he wearing a white coat?” and the response “No Sir, he was wearing no coat at all!”

Lionheart · 24-04-2016 8:55pm

RGM wrote: »

how he survived the torpedoing of his ship in 1914, or how he was at the Battle of Jutland.

.

Sounds like he might have been on the same ship as my great grandfather. His ship struck a mine in the Dardanelles and was also in the Battle of Jutland. He was also in the Battle of the Falklands in 1914. Like you, I never heard of his exploits while growing up. All recent discoveries.

Alan259 · 24-04-2016 9:21pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Thanks for putting that up. reading the press coverage it was his adverts that caused him the grief. The ‘Authorities’ were looking for a test case and he walked right into it. I love the “Was he wearing a white coat?” and the response “No Sir, he was wearing no coat at all!”

Thanks for your viewpoint.

I love all these unexpected stories and findings we find in the course of our research.

OU812 · 24-04-2016 9:23pm

A great grand uncle served time in Mounthoy twice, ran for office twice and is the reason we have a censor.

A GGgrandfather was one of the civilians to die in 1916 & was apparently carrying messages across the city on a regular basis for Collins while his sons were serving in the British army (they were in Europe during the rising).

A GGGgrand uncle was an admiral in the British navy & his records are still sealed to this day (something terrible or something awesome).

There's a very strong possibility I'm related to Henry Ford (still trying to work that one out).

One of my great aunts painted a portrait that still hangs in the white house. Her sister worked there & presented it to JFK after his visit to Ireland.

tabbey · 24-04-2016 9:58pm

[QUOTE=OU812;9950347.

A GGgrandfather was one of the civilians to die in 1916 & was apparently carrying messages across the city on a regular basis for Collins while his sons were serving in the British army (they were in Europe during the rising).
[/QUOTE]

Must have been resurrected between 1916 and 1921.

I think posters want to have real, evidence backed, interesting finds, not oral history, which is usually at best only partially true.

P. Breathnach · 24-04-2016 10:36pm

A great-uncle, who lived into my lifetime, served in the merchant marine in the Great War. His ship was captured by a German airplane in the South Pacific in June 1917, and my father's Uncle Peter spent the rest of the war as a POW.

[Evidence-backed, as tabbey demands, and unknown in the family until I came across the story.]

OU812 · 24-04-2016 10:46pm

tabbey wrote: »

Must have been resurrected between 1916 and 1921.

I think posters want to have real, evidence backed, interesting finds, not oral history, which is usually at best only partially true.

Not quite sure what you're trying to say here Tabby.

pedroeibar1 · 24-04-2016 11:36pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

...His ship was captured by a German airplane in the South Pacific in June 1917, ....

That’s cool! Never heard of a ship surrendering to a plane before! I’d hate to have been the skipper at the eventual court martial! WW1 in the South Pacific is not a topic that gets aired frequently, one on my list, but not near the top. I know von Spee was down there, and in WW2 the battleship named after him was sunk, an action in which my uncle took part , serving on HMS Ajax. He had been on the Hood but luckily was transferred. ( all proved).

@OU812 – where do you think the Ford connection lies? HF was very ‘up’ on his Irish Ford links and had most of them traced - he and family regularly met relative when they holidayed in Ireland. Was it the maternal line?

OU812 · 24-04-2016 11:42pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

@OU812 – where do you think the Ford connection lies? HF was very ‘up’ on his Irish Ford links and had most of them traced - he and family regularly met relative when they holidayed in Ireland. Was it the maternal line?

Yup. Mother's family are Fords, Hail from Plymouth & Cork... It's been passed down that there was a connection, but I'm pretty sure it was just a distant cousin of some sort at this point.

P. Breathnach · 24-04-2016 11:49pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

That’s cool! Never heard of a ship surrendering to a plane before! ...

It does seem to stretch credulity, doesn't it? Of course I chose to summarise the story in the most interesting way that I can, but it is essentially true: http://www.raoulandcampbell.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=16:wairuna-1917&catid=13&Itemid=123

My father told me that his uncle had been involved in two shipwrecks, and it was when I was trying to discover if that was true, or just a story to entertain a child, that I found this tale. I didn't find anything about shipwrecks, but there is a dim echo in my head that one of them was supposed to have happened in Lough Swilly.

[Edit: a weak echo is faint, not dim. I'm the one who is dim.]

pedroeibar1 · 25-04-2016 12:21pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

It does seem to stretch credulity, doesn't it?

A fascinating story - thanks for sharing. I’ve never researched Merchant Marine, only RN, but have you tried for his Seaman’s card records ?

If you get them it should lead to the ships he served on and then using that info search wrecks which should lead to more information on the Lough Swilly sinking.

pedroeibar1 · 25-04-2016 12:25pm

OU812 wrote: »

Yup. Mother's family are Fords, Hail from Plymouth & Cork... It's been passed down that there was a connection, but I'm pretty sure it was just a distant cousin of some sort at this point.

That’s more than a distant cousin

– it’s generally accepted that the Henry Ford family came to Ireland in the 1500’s, although several Irish families also anglicised their name to Ford. There also is a Ford family in Cork city that is unrelated to Henry.
Many of the non-motor Fords in the US are not really Fords, e.g. President Gerald Ford changed his name by deed poll and John Ford the film director is a Feeney from the Aran Islands.,

Hermy · 25-04-2016 7:13pm

On a related note one of my Pelly gang was apparently involved in trying to get Mr. Ford to set up in Cork.

P. Breathnach · 25-04-2016 9:23pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

A fascinating story - thanks for sharing. I’ve never researched Merchant Marine, only RN, but have you tried for his Seaman’s card records ?

If you get them it should lead to the ships he served on and then using that info search wrecks which should lead to more information on the Lough Swilly sinking.

I did some work on it about 4 years ago. So far as I could trace, he served only in the British merchant marine, and I could find just a few fragments of information (such as his being on the Wairuna when it was captured). There wasn't enough to create a profile of his career.

RGM · 25-04-2016 10:37pm

The difference between family legend and actual fact is a great topic. I mentioned my grandad's uncle earlier, this is a quote from a document written decades ago that recorded a lot of oral family history:

Unauthenticated family lore has it that when Willie retired from the
British Navy and his pension became due, he and a large number of other
pensioners were taken to sea and their ship was deliberately scuttled.
Just about everyone drowned but somehow, some way Willie survived.

What a story that is. Well, what actually happened is that early in World War I, a single German submarine sunk three outdated British cruisers, killing more than 1400 men, many of whom were older reservists that had just been called back to duty. Willie was indeed aboard one of those ships and survived, but he was not actually pensioned or a reservist at the time. There was an uproar about the incident in Britain and a feeling that the ill-equipped ships had been sent to the slaughter for no reason. They became known as the "livebait squadron." So that's where the sentiment behind the oral history comes from, but of course the actual details of the legend are just silly and false.

pedroeibar1 · 26-04-2016 10:25am

Hermy wrote: »

On a related note one of my Pelly gang was apparently involved in trying to get Mr. Ford to set up in Cork.

Interesting, although Ford did not need much persuading. Ford was very loyal to Cork and proud of his Cork heritage – his mother, an orphan of Belgian extraction was raised in Michigan by the Aherns, a childless Irish couple from Fair Lane in Cork. His father inherited that farm which is why Henry used the name Fairlane for his new Dearborn mansion (also used 1960’s for a car model). Henry and later family spent a lot of money on genealogical research in Ireland, corresponded with the PP of St. Mary’s (Cathedral) on the Ahern connection and the Baptism register there still bears the marks of that research, with ticks and X’s opposite several Ahern entries.

There is a good story, no doubt apocryphal, of a visit Henry made to Cork in the early 1900’s. He was asked by the PP to make a donation to a hospital extension fund and wrote a cheque for £100. The local papers headlined “Ford gives £1,000 to hospital”. The PP immediate called on Ford to apologise, saying that he would immediately have a retraction and correction printed. Ford, admiring how he had been ‘set up’ said he would increase the amount to the £1000 if an appropriate inscription of his choosing could be engraved on the pediment, telling the priest it would be from the gospel of Matthew. Put on the spot by this, the priest very quickly flashed his mind over Matthew, found nothing contentious and agreed. Ford said he want Matthew 23:35 – (I came among you as a stranger and you took me in.)

Interesting Finds

Comments