Is this legal?

pgj2015 · 13-04-2021 2:05pm #1

Someone sets up a web site for we will say a limo service. This person doesn't own or operate a limo business. Then after a year of giving their site fake reviews. Try to sell the site to legit limo businesses in the town or city?

whippet · 13-04-2021 3:09pm

What would make you think it is illegal?

The person buying the web domain would do their due dilligance before paying for it.

As for online reviews - I tend to have the opinion that at least 80% of them are fake / made up / total rubbish ... so unless it’s illegal to post up false reviews for a company that doesn’t exist I don’t see any issue here

13-04-2021 3:10pm

pgj2015 wrote: »

Someone sets up a web site for we will say a limo service. This person doesn't own or operate a limo business. Then after a year of giving their site fake reviews. Try to sell the site to legit limo businesses in the town or city?

If they are not pretending to be the legit business to begin with then it is.

seamus · 13-04-2021 3:15pm

I'm not sure the fake reviews would have any gravitas here.

If someone is purchasing a web site on the understanding that they are taking over another person's business, then that other person should be able to provide documentation on how many bookings are received through the website, how many of those convert into actual fares, etc.

If the person provides fake documentation showing fake bookings and fake income, then there's a fraud case there.

But if someone is stupid enough to just buy a website without any explanation on how it generates business, then that's a basic failure in due diligence and they'd be laughed out of court.

pgj2015 · 13-04-2021 4:16pm

seamus wrote: »

I'm not sure the fake reviews would have any gravitas here.

If someone is purchasing a web site on the understanding that they are taking over another person's business, then that other person should be able to provide documentation on how many bookings are received through the website, how many of those convert into actual fares, etc.

If the person provides fake documentation showing fake bookings and fake income, then there's a fraud case there.

But if someone is stupid enough to just buy a website without any explanation on how it generates business, then that's a basic failure in due diligence and they'd be laughed out of court.

But to operate as a limo driver in Ireland you need a spsv licence, so is it illegal for this person to be interacting with potential customers when they have no such licence? The customers are emailing him/her about trips, he/she is passing on details of other legit limo operators.

what this person is trying to sell is not a legit business, it is just a web site.

13-04-2021 4:18pm

pgj2015 wrote: »

Someone sets up a web site for we will say a limo service. This person doesn't own or operate a limo business. Then after a year of giving their site fake reviews. Try to sell the site to legit limo businesses in the town or city?

Why would anyone pay for fake reviews?

Of course if the domain name had intrinsic value due to a "good" name for the type of business that might be worth something but you don't need to stock it with fake reviews to sell it on that basis and frankly a generic "clever" website name is not worth that much because people want their own business in the name, but that's a whole other suite of issues.

Stupid business ideas are often not illegal though so there's that.

pgj2015 · 13-04-2021 4:34pm

ecoli3136 wrote: »

Why would anyone pay for fake reviews?

Of course if the domain name had intrinsic value due to a "good" name for the type of business that might be worth something but you don't need to stock it with fake reviews to sell it on that basis and frankly a generic "clever" website name is not worth that much because people want their own business in the name, but that's a whole other suite of issues.

Stupid business ideas are often not illegal though so there's that.

It does, but the business names are very similar to exiting business names in the area as well.

Atlantic Dawn · 13-04-2021 4:40pm

Generally when buying a business in Ireland you would look for audited accounts to determine the cashflow and profit of the business which would then determine how much the business is worth. Generally in day to day business a fair price is usually calculated at 10 times annual profit as a good guideline. Outside of this the assets like property that could be used to develope other properties may become a factor. Someone just buying the website with zero additional checks would need their head examined unless it's tiny money at stake.

Ckendrick · 13-04-2021 4:43pm

pgj2015 wrote: »

It does, but the business names are very similar to exiting business names in the area as well.

I suppose if you could suggest which law/s you think are being broken in this scenario then someone in the “know” could help you.
You seem to describe a situation where someone created a website that offers a limo service. The name of the limo service is similar to another limo service in the same area.
The website includes very favourable reviews from users you say don’t exist.
The owner of the website now has the website listed as “for sale”.
Is that a fair summing up?

seamus · 13-04-2021 5:03pm

pgj2015 wrote: »

But to operate as a limo driver in Ireland you need a spsv licence, so is it illegal for this person to be interacting with potential customers when they have no such licence? The customers are emailing him/her about trips, he/she is passing on details of other legit limo operators.

what this person is trying to sell is not a legit business, it is just a web site.

You only need the SPSV licence to drive a limo, not to run a limo business. That's my understanding anyway.

This guy in effect is acting as a broker for other limo services. He must be getting a kickback from them, which means there is a business of sorts there.

Fake reviews in that case are a bit of a grey area.

https://www.eccireland.ie/fake-online-reviews/#:~:text=The%20Advertising%20Standards%20Authority%20for,exaggeration%2C%20omission%20or%20otherwise'.

In effect they're not illegal but if a consumer has been misled, "to the extent that it was major factor in your decision making to complete a purchase" then they may be able to take action against the company.

But there doesn't appear to be any generic route through which you can make a complaint about fake online reviews.

From the point of view of purchasing the website, you're purchasing a taxi "reseller" business. The fake reviews are irrelevant except that the purchaser then takes ownership of those fake reviews and must decide what to do with them.

The question for the purchaser relates to how many solid contacts come through the website and whether that's worth the price being asked.

pgj2015 · 13-04-2021 5:25pm

Ckendrick wrote: »

I suppose if you could suggest which law/s you think are being broken in this scenario then someone in the “know” could help you.
You seem to describe a situation where someone created a website that offers a limo service. The name of the limo service is similar to another limo service in the same area.
The website includes very favourable reviews from users you say don’t exist.
The owner of the website now has the website listed as “for sale”.
Is that a fair summing up?

Just say someone contacts him/her and orders a limo. he/she turns up, drives the passenger somewhere, then as he/she is mentally unwell, kills the passenger.

This person hasn't been garda vetted(which all spsv drivers are), yet they are in a position to potentially cause harm to passengers.

The owner of the site is approaching limo drivers already operating and trying to sell them his bogus site.

He/she has other similar sites for exaple tree surgeon, baker, cafe etc. he/she has no such business, they are all fake sites. I assume he/she will try to sell these on as well at some stage.

ohnonotgmail · 13-04-2021 5:42pm

pgj2015 wrote: »

Just say someone contacts him/her and orders a limo. he/she turns up, drives the passenger somewhere, then as he/she is mentally unwell, kills the passenger.

This person hasn't been garda vetted(which all spsv drivers are), yet they are in a position to potentially cause harm to passengers.

The owner of the site is approaching limo drivers already operating and trying to sell them his bogus site.

He/she has other similar sites for exaple tree surgeon, baker, cafe etc. he/she has no such business, they are all fake sites. I assume he/she will try to sell these on as well at some stage.

I think i can say quite authoritatively that killing the passenger would be illegal.

pgj2015 · 13-04-2021 5:44pm

seamus wrote: »

You only need the SPSV licence to drive a limo, not to run a limo business. That's my understanding anyway.

This guy in effect is acting as a broker for other limo services. He must be getting a kickback from them, which means there is a business of sorts there.

Fake reviews in that case are a bit of a grey area.

https://www.eccireland.ie/fake-online-reviews/#:~:text=The%20Advertising%20Standards%20Authority%20for,exaggeration%2C%20omission%20or%20otherwise'.

In effect they're not illegal but if a consumer has been misled, "to the extent that it was major factor in your decision making to complete a purchase" then they may be able to take action against the company.

But there doesn't appear to be any generic route through which you can make a complaint about fake online reviews.

From the point of view of purchasing the website, you're purchasing a taxi "reseller" business. The fake reviews are irrelevant except that the purchaser then takes ownership of those fake reviews and must decide what to do with them.

The question for the purchaser relates to how many solid contacts come through the website and whether that's worth the price being asked.

Thank you for that link, very interesting.

The whole site and reviews have too be dodgy because lets say he passes on the number of tom a limo driver and sean another limo driver. Both men are very rude, aggressive and drive too fast/dangerously or don't turn up on time. A customer sees all the 5 star reviews and books a limo based on the reviews. Then she/he meets tom and sean.

pgj2015 · 13-04-2021 5:46pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I think i can say quite authoritatively that killing the passenger would be illegal.

yes. you may laugh but the potential is there. Garda vetting is there for a reason.

ohnonotgmail · 13-04-2021 5:50pm

pgj2015 wrote: »

yes. you may laugh but the potential is there. Garda vetting is there for a reason.

if somebody is operating as a psv driver without a licence then report them. Initially you gave the impression that they were not operating a business at all, merely setting up a website and writing fake reviews. as others have said you don't need licence to operate a PSV business. you do need one to operate as a PSV driver.

pgj2015 · 13-04-2021 5:53pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

if somebody is operating as a psv driver without a licence then report them. Initially you gave the impression that they were not operating a business at all, merely setting up a website and writing fake reviews. as others have said you don't need licence to operate a PSV business. you do need one to operate as a PSV driver.

im not sure if this is true, I think you do need a spsv licence to operate as a dispatcher, which is what this person is doing.

pgj2015 · 13-04-2021 5:54pm

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/taxi/dispatch-operator-licensing/

Snotty · 13-04-2021 5:55pm

So the site is basically a service model similar to Uber only a lot less complicated, people order the service via a website or app, the website owner doesn't drive the cars themselves they just facilitate the order process to someone who is legally allowed transport customers.
I'm assuming the issue you are having is fake reviews, however if the website is facilitating orders, then how do you know the reviews are fake, couldn't they be actual customer reviews?

ohnonotgmail · 13-04-2021 5:56pm

pgj2015 wrote: »

im not sure if this is true, I think you do need a spsv licence to operate as a dispatcher, which is what this person is doing.

you do not need an spsv licence to act as a dispatch operator. Unsurprisingly you only need a dispatch operators licence. yours for only €100 and a very minimal set of requirements that any business would possess.

pgj2015 · 13-04-2021 5:59pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you do not need an spsv licence to act as a dispatch operator. Unsurprisingly you only need a dispatch operators licence. yours for only €100 and a very minimal set of requirements that any business would possess.

I would be 99% sure this person doesn't have a dispatchers licence.

ohnonotgmail · 13-04-2021 6:00pm

pgj2015 wrote: »

I would be 99% sure this person doesn't have a dispatchers licence.

well then report them.

pgj2015 · 13-04-2021 6:00pm

Snotty wrote: »

So the site is basically a service model similar to Uber only a lot less complicated, people order the service via a website or app, the website owner doesn't drive the cars themselves they just facilitate the order process to someone who is legally allowed transport customers.
I'm assuming the issue you are having is fake reviews, however if the website is facilitating orders, then how do you know the reviews are fake, couldn't they be actual customer reviews?

I know the reviews are all fake, it has been made really obvious. the other fake sites are actually giving each other 5 star reviews.

ohnonotgmail · 13-04-2021 6:04pm

pgj2015 wrote: »

I would be 99% sure this person doesn't have a dispatchers licence.

you can check them here but you do need to know the business name they registered under

https://www.transportforireland.ie/getting-around/by-taxi/check-a-licence/

pgj2015 · 13-04-2021 6:06pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you can check them here but you do need to know the business name they registered under

https://www.transportforireland.ie/getting-around/by-taxi/check-a-licence/

Thanks, that was very useful. as I suspected, they aren't registered as a dispatcher.

Snotty · 13-04-2021 6:07pm

pgj2015 wrote: »

I know the reviews are all fake, it has been made really obvious. the other fake sites are actually giving each other 5 star reviews.

OK, one site giving another site a 5 star review is not fake, whether or not anyone gives it any credence is another thing.
Regarding the other reviews, can you prove they are fake? Again there are clients using a service obtained from this site, whether the site is linked to the delivery of the service is irrelevant.

ohnonotgmail · 13-04-2021 6:09pm

pgj2015 wrote: »

Thanks, that was very useful. as I suspected, they aren't registered as a dispatcher.

yeah I wouldn't be too sure on that. I tried it with my local taxi company and it didn't come up.

pgj2015 · 13-04-2021 6:12pm

Snotty wrote: »

OK, one site giving another site a 5 star review is not fake, whether or not anyone gives it any credence is another thing.
Regarding the other reviews, can you prove they are fake? Again there are clients using a service obtained from this site, whether the site is linked to the delivery of the service is irrelevant.

are reviews not supposed to come from people not a generic cafe dublin city etc?

im not sure how you can prove the reviews are fake but every one of them are, the person who runs the sites told me.

pgj2015 · 13-04-2021 6:16pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

yeah I wouldn't be too sure on that. I tried it with my local taxi company and it didn't come up.

some operators mightn't have an actual dispatchers licence. you don't need one to have a taxi business, 1 man set ups wouldn't usually have a dispatchers licence.

ED E · 13-04-2021 6:19pm

This has nothing to do with driving, holding an SPSV or anything.

Its a domain squat + SEO game. Happens all the time, perfectly legal. Up your SEO game PGJ.

ohnonotgmail · 13-04-2021 6:19pm

pgj2015 wrote: »

some operators mightn't have an actual dispatchers licence. you don't need one to have a taxi business, 1 man set ups wouldn't usually have a dispatchers licence.

a 1 man taxi business doesn't need one because they are not providing dispatch services for somebody else. the company I checked do provide dispatch services and I couldnt find them on the checker.

pgj2015 · 13-04-2021 6:23pm

ED E wrote: »

This has nothing to do with driving, holding an SPSV or anything.

Its a domain squat + SEO game. Happens all the time, perfectly legal. Up your SEO game PGJ.

A dispatch operator is a person who provides a service for taking bookings for SPSV services that are delivered by someone else, or who provides a service that enables intending passengers to arrange the hire of an SPSV.

The Consolidated Taxi Regulation Acts 2013 and 2016 give NTA the function to regulate and license dispatch operators.

Persons who wish to provide SPSV booking services are required to obtain a dispatch operator licence from NTA.

This requirement does not apply to booking services for limousines.

It is a criminal offence to operate without a current dispatch operator licence. A conviction for this offence attracts a penalty of up to €50,000.

If the person doesn't have a dispatchers licence it is a matter for the NTA.

pgj2015 · 13-04-2021 6:24pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

a 1 man taxi business doesn't need one because they are not providing dispatch services for somebody else. the company I checked do provide dispatch services and I couldnt find them on the checker.

I will let the authorities see if they have a dispatchers licence or not.

Snotty · 13-04-2021 6:34pm

pgj2015 wrote: »

are reviews not supposed to come from people not a generic cafe dublin city etc?

im not sure how you can prove the reviews are fake but every one of them are, the person who runs the sites told me.

No, some entity has left a review for another entity, that's it, there is basically nothing more to it. Whether someone actually puts any credence on that review is down to the individual.

Proving a review isn't from another entity is almost impossible and even if you could, what would it achieve?

It sounds like this person has setup a website to create an online presence that can be sold to other companies without as good a presence, you might not like it, but the issue probably is you don't like that this person has done it rather than anything actually illegal.

13-04-2021 6:41pm

pgj2015 wrote: »

Just say someone contacts him/her and orders a limo. he/she turns up, drives the passenger somewhere, then as he/she is mentally unwell, kills the passenger.

Hmmmmmm, tricky one, would depend on a few things, how much I'm being paid up front to give the Opinion etc etc

Baby01032012 · 13-04-2021 6:44pm

pgj2015 wrote: »

But to operate as a limo driver in Ireland you need a spsv licence, so is it illegal for this person to be interacting with potential customers when they have no such licence? The customers are emailing him/her about trips, he/she is passing on details of other legit limo operators.

what this person is trying to sell is not a legit business, it is just a web site.

So they’re subcontracting out to drivers who I assume have the license rather than employing drivers themselves, nothing wrong with that.

pgj2015 · 13-04-2021 7:00pm

Baby01032012 wrote: »

So they’re subcontracting out to drivers who I assume have the license rather than employing drivers themselves, nothing wrong with that.

There is if they don't have a dispatchers licence.

pgj2015 · 13-04-2021 7:04pm

Snotty wrote: »

No, some entity has left a review for another entity, that's it, there is basically nothing more to it. Whether someone actually puts any credence on that review is down to the individual.

Proving a review isn't from another entity is almost impossible and even if you could, what would it achieve?

It sounds like this person has setup a website to create an online presence that can be sold to other companies without as good a presence, you might not like it, but the issue probably is you don't like that this person has done it rather than anything actually illegal.

say I want to open up a hotel but not now, in 5 years time. is it ok that I set up a web site 5 year previously, give fake reviews in that 5 years. Then when I am ready to start the business, I have a web site that says I am in business 5 years, all 5 star reviews even though it never exited. That cant be right can it? I don't mean morally but some law is being broken somewhere, no?

Snotty · 13-04-2021 11:22pm

pgj2015 wrote: »

say I want to open up a hotel but not now, in 5 years time. is it ok that I set up a web site 5 year previously, give fake reviews in that 5 years. Then when I am ready to start the business, I have a web site that says I am in business 5 years, all 5 star reviews even though it never exited. That cant be right can it? I don't mean morally but some law is being broken somewhere, no?

No, I could set up a website for any business real or imaginary, I could create reviews till the cows come home, it doesn't mean anything, if these reviews and site are enough to attract business now, genuine reviews will soon follow, if the business does not meet the marketing, bad reviews will follow.
In 5 years time if I do actually open a business all I have is an existing online presence that could have been generated with some basic online marketing knowledge pretty quickly anyway.

I think some snake oil salesman has shown you this site, told you how great it is and you believed ever word, its a website with fake reviews, that's all it is. Give some first year CS student a few quid and they'll give you a WordPress site to rival it.

pgj2015 · 13-04-2021 11:48pm

Snotty wrote: »

No, I could set up a website for any business real or imaginary, I could create reviews till the cows come home, it doesn't mean anything, if these reviews and site are enough to attract business now, genuine reviews will soon follow, if the business does not meet the marketing, bad reviews will follow.
In 5 years time if I do actually open a business all I have is an existing online presence that could have been generated with some basic online marketing knowledge pretty quickly anyway.

I think some snake oil salesman has shown you this site, told you how great it is and you believed ever word, its a website with fake reviews, that's all it is. Give some first year CS student a few quid and they'll give you a WordPress site to rival it.

I don't think so. The opposite actually. I was just curious as to what they are up to. trying to drum up business, they may be a wizz at computers but they have a lot to learn about business.

seamus · 14-04-2021 9:13am

pgj2015 wrote: »

There is if they don't have a dispatchers licence.

The link you posted specifically says that a dispatcher licence isn't required to take bookings for limos.

pgj2015 · 14-04-2021 9:21am

seamus wrote: »

The link you posted specifically says that a dispatcher licence isn't required to take bookings for limos.

Limos was just used as an example.

14-04-2021 9:23am

pgj2015 wrote: »

Someone sets up a web site for we will say a limo service. This person doesn't own or operate a limo business. Then after a year of giving their site fake reviews. Try to sell the site to legit limo businesses in the town or city?

A bit like politics I suppose!

'I'll do this and I'll do that' but does nothing after being elected!

Spook_ie · 14-04-2021 11:09pm

pgj2015 wrote: »

A dispatch operator is a person who provides a service for taking bookings for SPSV services that are delivered by someone else, or who provides a service that enables intending passengers to arrange the hire of an SPSV.

The Consolidated Taxi Regulation Acts 2013 and 2016 give NTA the function to regulate and license dispatch operators.

Persons who wish to provide SPSV booking services are required to obtain a dispatch operator licence from NTA.

This requirement does not apply to booking services for limousines.

It is a criminal offence to operate without a current dispatch operator licence. A conviction for this offence attracts a penalty of up to €50,000.

If the person doesn't have a dispatchers licence it is a matter for the NTA.

What are we arguing here?

Spook_ie · 14-04-2021 11:11pm

pgj2015 wrote: »

Limos was just used as an example.

Are they advertising Limousines or Taxis/|Hackneys, 2 different scenarios

Fandymo · 14-04-2021 11:12pm

pgj2015 wrote: »

But to operate as a limo driver in Ireland you need a spsv licence, so is it illegal for this person to be interacting with potential customers when they have no such licence? The customers are emailing him/her about trips, he/she is passing on details of other legit limo operators.

what this person is trying to sell is not a legit business, it is just a web site.

Is it illegal for budget travel to sell holidays when none of their staff have pilots licenses?? You need a spsv license to drive a limo/taxi, not to work on the booking office.

Fandymo · 14-04-2021 11:17pm

pgj2015 wrote: »

There is if they don't have a dispatchers licence.

“This requirement does not apply to booking services for limousines.”

Did you miss this part of the blurb about the dispatchers license??

Spook_ie · 14-04-2021 11:19pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you can check them here but you do need to know the business name they registered under

https://www.transportforireland.ie/getting-around/by-taxi/check-a-licence/

pgj2015 wrote: »

Thanks, that was very useful. as I suspected, they aren't registered as a dispatcher.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

yeah I wouldn't be too sure on that. I tried it with my local taxi company and it didn't come up.

You need to be very sure of what name they are trading under
e.g Search for Dial A Cab, won't show as having a dispatch license however search under G&F TAXIS LTD T/A DIAL A CAB and they have a valid dispatch license

Victor · 15-04-2021 9:42am

pgj2015 wrote: »

It does, but the business names are very similar to exiting business names in the area as well.

That is what is known as passing off. If there is an existing business called "Longford Limos" and I set up "Longford's Limos" and compete against them, I am operating on their reputation, which is a problem. They can make me stop and sue for loss of income.

seamus wrote: »

You only need the SPSV licence to drive a limo, not to run a limo business. That's my understanding anyway.

SPSV dispatchers also need a licence.

Spook_ie · 15-04-2021 12:17pm

Victor wrote: »

That is what is known as passing off. If there is an existing business called "Longford Limos" and I set up "Longford's Limos" and compete against them, I am operating on their reputation, which is a problem. They can make me stop and sue for loss of income.

SPSV dispatchers also need a licence.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/taxi/dispatch-operator-licensing/

This requirement does not apply to booking services for limousines.

Though any company passing on requests for limousine service would probably be advised to keep a record of whom they passed on the request to, as they would need to be licensed etc. to provide the actual service

Is this legal?

Comments