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Is this legal?

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  • 13-04-2021 2:05pm
    #1
    pgj2015
    Registered Users Posts: 8,955 ✭✭✭


    Someone sets up a web site for we will say a limo service. This person doesn't own or operate a limo business. Then after a year of giving their site fake reviews. Try to sell the site to legit limo businesses in the town or city?


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    #2
    whippet
    Registered Users Posts: 7,672 ✭✭✭whippet


    What would make you think it is illegal?

    The person buying the web domain would do their due dilligance before paying for it.

    As for online reviews - I tend to have the opinion that at least 80% of them are fake / made up / total rubbish ... so unless it’s illegal to post up false reviews for a company that doesn’t exist I don’t see any issue here


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    #3
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    pgj2015 wrote: »
    Someone sets up a web site for we will say a limo service. This person doesn't own or operate a limo business. Then after a year of giving their site fake reviews. Try to sell the site to legit limo businesses in the town or city?

    If they are not pretending to be the legit business to begin with then it is.


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    #4
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    I'm not sure the fake reviews would have any gravitas here.

    If someone is purchasing a web site on the understanding that they are taking over another person's business, then that other person should be able to provide documentation on how many bookings are received through the website, how many of those convert into actual fares, etc.

    If the person provides fake documentation showing fake bookings and fake income, then there's a fraud case there.

    But if someone is stupid enough to just buy a website without any explanation on how it generates business, then that's a basic failure in due diligence and they'd be laughed out of court.


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    #5
    pgj2015
    Registered Users Posts: 8,955 ✭✭✭pgj2015


    seamus wrote: »
    I'm not sure the fake reviews would have any gravitas here.

    If someone is purchasing a web site on the understanding that they are taking over another person's business, then that other person should be able to provide documentation on how many bookings are received through the website, how many of those convert into actual fares, etc.

    If the person provides fake documentation showing fake bookings and fake income, then there's a fraud case there.

    But if someone is stupid enough to just buy a website without any explanation on how it generates business, then that's a basic failure in due diligence and they'd be laughed out of court.



    But to operate as a limo driver in Ireland you need a spsv licence, so is it illegal for this person to be interacting with potential customers when they have no such licence? The customers are emailing him/her about trips, he/she is passing on details of other legit limo operators.

    what this person is trying to sell is not a legit business, it is just a web site.


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    #6
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    pgj2015 wrote: »
    Someone sets up a web site for we will say a limo service. This person doesn't own or operate a limo business. Then after a year of giving their site fake reviews. Try to sell the site to legit limo businesses in the town or city?

    Why would anyone pay for fake reviews?

    Of course if the domain name had intrinsic value due to a "good" name for the type of business that might be worth something but you don't need to stock it with fake reviews to sell it on that basis and frankly a generic "clever" website name is not worth that much because people want their own business in the name, but that's a whole other suite of issues.

    Stupid business ideas are often not illegal though so there's that.


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    #7
    pgj2015
    Registered Users Posts: 8,955 ✭✭✭pgj2015


    ecoli3136 wrote: »
    Why would anyone pay for fake reviews?

    Of course if the domain name had intrinsic value due to a "good" name for the type of business that might be worth something but you don't need to stock it with fake reviews to sell it on that basis and frankly a generic "clever" website name is not worth that much because people want their own business in the name, but that's a whole other suite of issues.

    Stupid business ideas are often not illegal though so there's that.




    It does, but the business names are very similar to exiting business names in the area as well.


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    #8
    Atlantic Dawn
    Registered Users Posts: 81,312 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    M


    Generally when buying a business in Ireland you would look for audited accounts to determine the cashflow and profit of the business which would then determine how much the business is worth. Generally in day to day business a fair price is usually calculated at 10 times annual profit as a good guideline. Outside of this the assets like property that could be used to develope other properties may become a factor. Someone just buying the website with zero additional checks would need their head examined unless it's tiny money at stake.


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    #9
    Ckendrick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 128 ✭✭Ckendrick


    pgj2015 wrote: »
    It does, but the business names are very similar to exiting business names in the area as well.

    I suppose if you could suggest which law/s you think are being broken in this scenario then someone in the “know” could help you.
    You seem to describe a situation where someone created a website that offers a limo service. The name of the limo service is similar to another limo service in the same area.
    The website includes very favourable reviews from users you say don’t exist.
    The owner of the website now has the website listed as “for sale”.
    Is that a fair summing up?


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    #10
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    pgj2015 wrote: »
    But to operate as a limo driver in Ireland you need a spsv licence, so is it illegal for this person to be interacting with potential customers when they have no such licence? The customers are emailing him/her about trips, he/she is passing on details of other legit limo operators.

    what this person is trying to sell is not a legit business, it is just a web site.
    You only need the SPSV licence to drive a limo, not to run a limo business. That's my understanding anyway.

    This guy in effect is acting as a broker for other limo services. He must be getting a kickback from them, which means there is a business of sorts there.

    Fake reviews in that case are a bit of a grey area.

    https://www.eccireland.ie/fake-online-reviews/#:~:text=The%20Advertising%20Standards%20Authority%20for,exaggeration%2C%20omission%20or%20otherwise'.

    In effect they're not illegal but if a consumer has been misled, "to the extent that it was major factor in your decision making to complete a purchase" then they may be able to take action against the company.

    But there doesn't appear to be any generic route through which you can make a complaint about fake online reviews.

    From the point of view of purchasing the website, you're purchasing a taxi "reseller" business. The fake reviews are irrelevant except that the purchaser then takes ownership of those fake reviews and must decide what to do with them.

    The question for the purchaser relates to how many solid contacts come through the website and whether that's worth the price being asked.


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    #11
    pgj2015
    Registered Users Posts: 8,955 ✭✭✭pgj2015


    Ckendrick wrote: »
    I suppose if you could suggest which law/s you think are being broken in this scenario then someone in the “know” could help you.
    You seem to describe a situation where someone created a website that offers a limo service. The name of the limo service is similar to another limo service in the same area.
    The website includes very favourable reviews from users you say don’t exist.
    The owner of the website now has the website listed as “for sale”.
    Is that a fair summing up?



    Just say someone contacts him/her and orders a limo. he/she turns up, drives the passenger somewhere, then as he/she is mentally unwell, kills the passenger.

    This person hasn't been garda vetted(which all spsv drivers are), yet they are in a position to potentially cause harm to passengers.

    The owner of the site is approaching limo drivers already operating and trying to sell them his bogus site.

    He/she has other similar sites for exaple tree surgeon, baker, cafe etc. he/she has no such business, they are all fake sites. I assume he/she will try to sell these on as well at some stage.


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    #12
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,179 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    pgj2015 wrote: »
    Just say someone contacts him/her and orders a limo. he/she turns up, drives the passenger somewhere, then as he/she is mentally unwell, kills the passenger.

    This person hasn't been garda vetted(which all spsv drivers are), yet they are in a position to potentially cause harm to passengers.

    The owner of the site is approaching limo drivers already operating and trying to sell them his bogus site.

    He/she has other similar sites for exaple tree surgeon, baker, cafe etc. he/she has no such business, they are all fake sites. I assume he/she will try to sell these on as well at some stage.

    I think i can say quite authoritatively that killing the passenger would be illegal.


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    #13
    pgj2015
    Registered Users Posts: 8,955 ✭✭✭pgj2015


    seamus wrote: »
    You only need the SPSV licence to drive a limo, not to run a limo business. That's my understanding anyway.

    This guy in effect is acting as a broker for other limo services. He must be getting a kickback from them, which means there is a business of sorts there.

    Fake reviews in that case are a bit of a grey area.

    https://www.eccireland.ie/fake-online-reviews/#:~:text=The%20Advertising%20Standards%20Authority%20for,exaggeration%2C%20omission%20or%20otherwise'.

    In effect they're not illegal but if a consumer has been misled, "to the extent that it was major factor in your decision making to complete a purchase" then they may be able to take action against the company.

    But there doesn't appear to be any generic route through which you can make a complaint about fake online reviews.

    From the point of view of purchasing the website, you're purchasing a taxi "reseller" business. The fake reviews are irrelevant except that the purchaser then takes ownership of those fake reviews and must decide what to do with them.

    The question for the purchaser relates to how many solid contacts come through the website and whether that's worth the price being asked.



    Thank you for that link, very interesting.

    The whole site and reviews have too be dodgy because lets say he passes on the number of tom a limo driver and sean another limo driver. Both men are very rude, aggressive and drive too fast/dangerously or don't turn up on time. A customer sees all the 5 star reviews and books a limo based on the reviews. Then she/he meets tom and sean.


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    #14
    pgj2015
    Registered Users Posts: 8,955 ✭✭✭pgj2015


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    I think i can say quite authoritatively that killing the passenger would be illegal.



    yes. you may laugh but the potential is there. Garda vetting is there for a reason.


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    #15
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,179 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    pgj2015 wrote: »
    yes. you may laugh but the potential is there. Garda vetting is there for a reason.

    if somebody is operating as a psv driver without a licence then report them. Initially you gave the impression that they were not operating a business at all, merely setting up a website and writing fake reviews. as others have said you don't need licence to operate a PSV business. you do need one to operate as a PSV driver.


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    #16
    pgj2015
    Registered Users Posts: 8,955 ✭✭✭pgj2015


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    if somebody is operating as a psv driver without a licence then report them. Initially you gave the impression that they were not operating a business at all, merely setting up a website and writing fake reviews. as others have said you don't need licence to operate a PSV business. you do need one to operate as a PSV driver.



    im not sure if this is true, I think you do need a spsv licence to operate as a dispatcher, which is what this person is doing.


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    #17
    pgj2015
    Registered Users Posts: 8,955 ✭✭✭pgj2015


    https://www.nationaltransport.ie/taxi/dispatch-operator-licensing/


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    #18
    Snotty
    Registered Users Posts: 1,298 ✭✭✭Snotty


    So the site is basically a service model similar to Uber only a lot less complicated, people order the service via a website or app, the website owner doesn't drive the cars themselves they just facilitate the order process to someone who is legally allowed transport customers.
    I'm assuming the issue you are having is fake reviews, however if the website is facilitating orders, then how do you know the reviews are fake, couldn't they be actual customer reviews?


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    #19
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,179 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    pgj2015 wrote: »
    im not sure if this is true, I think you do need a spsv licence to operate as a dispatcher, which is what this person is doing.

    you do not need an spsv licence to act as a dispatch operator. Unsurprisingly you only need a dispatch operators licence. yours for only €100 and a very minimal set of requirements that any business would possess.


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    #20
    pgj2015
    Registered Users Posts: 8,955 ✭✭✭pgj2015


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    you do not need an spsv licence to act as a dispatch operator. Unsurprisingly you only need a dispatch operators licence. yours for only €100 and a very minimal set of requirements that any business would possess.




    I would be 99% sure this person doesn't have a dispatchers licence.


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    #21
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,179 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    pgj2015 wrote: »
    I would be 99% sure this person doesn't have a dispatchers licence.

    well then report them.


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    #22
    pgj2015
    Registered Users Posts: 8,955 ✭✭✭pgj2015


    Snotty wrote: »
    So the site is basically a service model similar to Uber only a lot less complicated, people order the service via a website or app, the website owner doesn't drive the cars themselves they just facilitate the order process to someone who is legally allowed transport customers.
    I'm assuming the issue you are having is fake reviews, however if the website is facilitating orders, then how do you know the reviews are fake, couldn't they be actual customer reviews?




    I know the reviews are all fake, it has been made really obvious. the other fake sites are actually giving each other 5 star reviews.


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    #23
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,179 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    pgj2015 wrote: »
    I would be 99% sure this person doesn't have a dispatchers licence.

    you can check them here but you do need to know the business name they registered under

    https://www.transportforireland.ie/getting-around/by-taxi/check-a-licence/


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    #24
    pgj2015
    Registered Users Posts: 8,955 ✭✭✭pgj2015


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    you can check them here but you do need to know the business name they registered under

    https://www.transportforireland.ie/getting-around/by-taxi/check-a-licence/



    Thanks, that was very useful. as I suspected, they aren't registered as a dispatcher.


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    #25
    Snotty
    Registered Users Posts: 1,298 ✭✭✭Snotty


    pgj2015 wrote: »
    I know the reviews are all fake, it has been made really obvious. the other fake sites are actually giving each other 5 star reviews.

    OK, one site giving another site a 5 star review is not fake, whether or not anyone gives it any credence is another thing.
    Regarding the other reviews, can you prove they are fake? Again there are clients using a service obtained from this site, whether the site is linked to the delivery of the service is irrelevant.


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    #26
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,179 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    pgj2015 wrote: »
    Thanks, that was very useful. as I suspected, they aren't registered as a dispatcher.

    yeah I wouldn't be too sure on that. I tried it with my local taxi company and it didn't come up.


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    #27
    pgj2015
    Registered Users Posts: 8,955 ✭✭✭pgj2015


    Snotty wrote: »
    OK, one site giving another site a 5 star review is not fake, whether or not anyone gives it any credence is another thing.
    Regarding the other reviews, can you prove they are fake? Again there are clients using a service obtained from this site, whether the site is linked to the delivery of the service is irrelevant.



    are reviews not supposed to come from people not a generic cafe dublin city etc?

    im not sure how you can prove the reviews are fake but every one of them are, the person who runs the sites told me.


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    #28
    pgj2015
    Registered Users Posts: 8,955 ✭✭✭pgj2015


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    yeah I wouldn't be too sure on that. I tried it with my local taxi company and it didn't come up.



    some operators mightn't have an actual dispatchers licence. you don't need one to have a taxi business, 1 man set ups wouldn't usually have a dispatchers licence.


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    #29
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,166 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    This has nothing to do with driving, holding an SPSV or anything.


    Its a domain squat + SEO game. Happens all the time, perfectly legal. Up your SEO game PGJ.


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    #30
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,179 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    pgj2015 wrote: »
    some operators mightn't have an actual dispatchers licence. you don't need one to have a taxi business, 1 man set ups wouldn't usually have a dispatchers licence.

    a 1 man taxi business doesn't need one because they are not providing dispatch services for somebody else. the company I checked do provide dispatch services and I couldnt find them on the checker.


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    #31
    pgj2015
    Registered Users Posts: 8,955 ✭✭✭pgj2015


    ED E wrote: »
    This has nothing to do with driving, holding an SPSV or anything.


    Its a domain squat + SEO game. Happens all the time, perfectly legal. Up your SEO game PGJ.

    A dispatch operator is a person who provides a service for taking bookings for SPSV services that are delivered by someone else, or who provides a service that enables intending passengers to arrange the hire of an SPSV.

    The Consolidated Taxi Regulation Acts 2013 and 2016 give NTA the function to regulate and license dispatch operators.

    Persons who wish to provide SPSV booking services are required to obtain a dispatch operator licence from NTA.

    This requirement does not apply to booking services for limousines.

    It is a criminal offence to operate without a current dispatch operator licence. A conviction for this offence attracts a penalty of up to €50,000.



    If the person doesn't have a dispatchers licence it is a matter for the NTA.


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