[Seanachai]

Is there an online record anywhere of blueshirt membership?

[caff]

List here for both sides that went to fight in the Spanish civil war http://irelandscw.com/band-dufflist.htm

[Seanachai]

Originally Posted by caff

List here for both sides that went to fight in the Spanish civil war http://irelandscw.com/band-dufflist.htm

Thanks, this fella didn't go the Spain, there's probably a list in the National Library.

[BalcombeSt4]

It's a pitty they all didn't go to Spain to stay there and take their Fine Gael "allies" with them.

I know Britain had Mosely's BUF at the time, but it's shameful seeing old pictures from the the 30's of Irish people in SA style uniforms giving the Fascist salute or the "Roman" salute as revisionists call it.

[Seanachai]

Originally Posted by BalcombeSt4

It's a pitty they all didn't go to Spain to stay there and take their Fine Gael "allies" with them.

I know Britain had Mosely's BUF at the time, but it's shameful seeing old pictures from the the 30's of Irish people in SA style uniforms giving the Fascist salute or the "Roman" salute as revisionists call it.

I don't think a lot of those guys were overly political or genuinely devoted to fascism, it seemed to be more of a Catholic vs atheism thing, the clergy may have had something to do with encouraging young fellas to fight for Franco.

My grandfather is the one I'm researching about, I've only ever heard snippets of information, I think it could be a source of shame. He married my grandmother as an older man, she strangely enough came from a very prominent republican family.

[donaghs]

Originally Posted by BalcombeSt4

It's a pitty they all didn't go to Spain to stay there and take their Fine Gael "allies" with them.

I know Britain had Mosely's BUF at the time, but it's shameful seeing old pictures from the the 30's of Irish people in SA style uniforms giving the Fascist salute or the "Roman" salute as revisionists call it.

You can still see shadowy groups in Ireland in marching with quasi-military attire. Usually at funerals.

Ireland was a lot more conservative then, most people took the lead of the Catholic Church and favoured Franco over the legitimate Spanish government (obviously there were exceptions). The attacks on churches in Spain would have been enough to make up some people's minds.

I'm no fan of Eoin O'Duffy. But to suggest that he was some sort of proto-Hitler is laughable. If you look the actual Blueshirt ideology, stated aims, it basically boils down to following the catholic church and opposing communism. O'Duffy made lots of contradictory statements and positions, e.g. opposing ant-Antisemitism at a Fascist conference. He seemed to have been an effective IRA commander , but clearly was mentally past his prime by the 1930s.

[Seanachai]

Originally Posted by donaghs

You can still see shadowy groups in Ireland in marching with quasi-military attire. Usually at funerals.

Ireland was a lot more conservative then, most people took the lead of the Catholic Church and favoured Franco over the legitimate Spanish government (obviously there were exceptions). The attacks on churches in Spain would have been enough to make up some people's minds.

I'm no fan of Eoin O'Duffy. But to suggest that he was some sort of proto-Hitler is laughable. If you look the actual Blueshirt ideology, stated aims, it basically boils down to following the catholic church and opposing communism. O'Duffy made lots of contradictory statements and positions, e.g. opposing ant-Antisemitism at a Fascist conference. He seemed to have been an effective IRA commander , but clearly was mentally past his prime by the 1930s.

That's interesting, do you mean funerals of elderly people? I heard stories that my grandad and his brother were involved in some sort of fighting too and they used to hide in a basement that a local farmer had in a shed. Again it's very hard to get my relatives to talk openly about it, I assume it was the civil war and they were pro-treaty.

My nan's family were heavily involved in the anti-treaty IRA, my grandad became a postman later on and I heard that he was badly beaten and had his bike smashed up, at least one of the attackers was supposed to be related to my nan, possibly even a brother!

[donaghs]

Originally Posted by Seanachai

That's interesting, do you mean funerals of elderly people?

No I thinking more along the lines of present day groups that describe themselves "republican" , or "loyalist".

[Seanachai]

Originally Posted by donaghs

No I thinking more along the lines of present day groups that describe themselves "republican" , or "loyalist".

Ah okay, I thought you meant like there was some sort of continuity ACA knocking around. I've seen the older early and Official IRA guys at funerals, never saw any blue shirts on display though.

[BalcombeSt4]

Originally Posted by Seanachai

I don't think a lot of those guys were overly political or genuinely devoted to fascism, it seemed to be more of a Catholic vs atheism thing, the clergy may have had something to do with encouraging young fellas to fight for Franco.

My grandfather is the one I'm researching about, I've only ever heard snippets of information, I think it could be a source of shame. He married my grandmother as an older man, she strangely enough came from a very prominent republican family.

Yeah, that's a big reason I hate the Catholic church so much, obviously along with it's abuse of children & women in Ireland, but also leading clergy were big supporters of Fascist & Phalangist movements in Europe in the 1930's & 40's, and in South America in the 1960's & 70's.

Obviously Mussolini's regime in Italy but also for other Fascist movments in Europe like the Ustase regime in the Independent State of Croatia which was infamously brutal, having special Concentration camps for children were forced conversion to Catholicism took place. I'm not saying these clergy were Fascists (I mean they might have been I don't know) but like with Franco, they helped to legitamize these Fascist regimes & gave them a certain amount of respect in society.

[BalcombeSt4]

Originally Posted by donaghs

You can still see shadowy groups in Ireland in marching with quasi-military attire. Usually at funerals.

Ireland was a lot more conservative then, most people took the lead of the Catholic Church and favoured Franco over the legitimate Spanish government (obviously there were exceptions). The attacks on churches in Spain would have been enough to make up some people's minds.

I'm no fan of Eoin O'Duffy. But to suggest that he was some sort of proto-Hitler is laughable. If you look the actual Blueshirt ideology, stated aims, it basically boils down to following the catholic church and opposing communism. O'Duffy made lots of contradictory statements and positions, e.g. opposing ant-Antisemitism at a Fascist conference. He seemed to have been an effective IRA commander , but clearly was mentally past his prime by the 1930s.

That's true, but it would have been equally laughable in the 1920's to think Oswald Mosley a leading Labour member would have become Britain's Hitler by 1931. It probably would have been laughable to think Mussolini when he was in a Social Democratic party would have become Europe's first Fascist Dictator.

Pretty much the whole of Ireland followed the Catholic church & opposed Communism in the 1930's, but most didn't resort to dressing up in Stormtrooper style uniforms & giving the Nazi salute. They had a ideology known as clerical fascism, which was basically the economic & political doctrine of Fascism mixed with deeply held religious beliefs & strong social conservatism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerical_fascism
This was pretty much the aims of Sean South's organization Maria Duce in the 1950's, but they also wanted to make Ireland a constitutional Catholic state as well.

And Fianna Fail were worried the Blueshirt planned march on Dublin would turn into another Mussolini March on Rome style situation & banned the Blueshirts. After the Blueshirts were banned Duffy formed the Greenshirts, the National Corporate Party, which was even more openly Fascist, and was affiliated to the Fascist International.

There was also Ailtirí na hAiséirghe, formed in 1941 which was openly supportive of the Axis powers at a time when Nazi Germany controlled most of Europe & was before Stalingrad & looked like the Nazi's would soon have Britain.

So I think you are under estimating maybe a little bit the threat posed by Fascists to Ireland in the 1930's & early 1940's.

[Seanachai]

Originally Posted by BalcombeSt4

That's true, but it would have been equally laughable in the 1920's to think Oswald Mosley a leading Labour member would have become Britain's Hitler by 1931. It probably would have been laughable to think Mussolini when he was in a Social Democratic party would have become Europe's first Fascist Dictator.

Pretty much the whole of Ireland followed the Catholic church & opposed Communism in the 1930's, but most didn't resort to dressing up in Stormtrooper style uniforms & giving the Nazi salute. They had a ideology known as clerical fascism, which was basically the economic & political doctrine of Fascism mixed with deeply held religious beliefs & strong social conservatism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerical_fascism
This was pretty much the aims of Sean South's organization Maria Duce in the 1950's, but they also wanted to make Ireland a constitutional Catholic state as well.

And Fianna Fail were worried the Blueshirt planned march on Dublin would turn into another Mussolini March on Rome style situation & banned the Blueshirts. After the Blueshirts were banned Duffy formed the Greenshirts, the National Corporate Party, which was even more openly Fascist, and was affiliated to the Fascist International.

There was also Ailtirí na hAiséirghe, formed in 1941 which was openly supportive of the Axis powers at a time when Nazi Germany controlled most of Europe & was before Stalingrad & looked like the Nazi's would soon have Britain.

So I think you are under estimating maybe a little bit the threat posed by Fascists to Ireland in the 1930's & early 1940's.

I heard from older fellas that the church was very hostile to any kind of co-ops, labelling them as communist infiltration. The bigger farmers were always front and centre in the church in our parish anyway.

[pedroeibar1]

Originally Posted by Seanachai

I heard from older fellas that the church was very hostile to any kind of co-ops, labelling them as communist infiltration. The bigger farmers were always front and centre in the church in our parish anyway.

That is going off-topic but .. From what I’ve read about the Co-op movement (mainly relating to Horace Plunkett) that assertion (RC Church against them) has no basis in fact.

Plunkett, from an Anglo-Irish landlord family was the driving force behind the co-op movement. By the 1890’s there were just a few dozen co-op creameries and the Irish Agricultural Organization Society came into being with a coordinating role. Its committee was several big landlords, a couple of farmers and a Catholic bishop. In a friend's Tipperary family the grandfather - a ‘strong farmer’ – was one of those instrumental in setting up a local co-op A very RC family, his uncle was a bishop, his brother and several nephews were priests. Also, when, with London’s approval, the Black & Tans targeted the creameries during the WoI, the clergy were vociferously outspoken against that action.

The main opponents of the co-ops were the big merchants – they had the most to lose e.g. fertilizer vendors, who formed an association to combat them.

[tabbey]

Originally Posted by Seanachai

My nan's family were heavily involved in the anti-treaty IRA, my grandad became a postman later on and I heard that he was badly beaten and had his bike smashed up, at least one of the attackers was supposed to be related to my nan, possibly even a brother!

Sadly brother was put against brother in the civil war.

Probably the greatest Irish tragedy in the last century.

[Seanachai]

Originally Posted by tabbey

Sadly brother was put against brother in the civil war.

Probably the greatest Irish tragedy in the last century.

From what I heard my grandad 'arrested' a neighbour and relative of my gran during the civil war and brought him to the Curragh, but my father says they were friendly till the end of their lives.

There was supposed to be a book launched about local history and there were objections raised about 'dragging up that s**te again'.