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Why cant all hospitals be run like this

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  • 14-08-2020 9:21am
    #1
    tails_naf
    Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭


    I'm at the beacon hospital for a health check and they had me do an unscheduled chest xray. I went down to the radiology department, and was registered and had the xray completed in less than 10 minutes. The radiographers themselves took about 2 minutes end to end. Results automatically sent back to the health check. This is how you save money, that one xray room can see hundreds of people a day if needs be. No way, no messing. Why can't this be the way all hospitals work?


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    #2
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,706 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Ze1bndG.jpg


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    #3
    tails_naf
    Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭tails_naf


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    Ze1bndG.jpg

    Not sure I get the relevance, but the far side is always welcome!


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    #4
    Badly Drunk Boy
    Registered Users Posts: 6,452 ✭✭✭Badly Drunk Boy


    tails_naf wrote: »
    I'm at the beacon hospital for a health check and they had me do an unscheduled chest xray. I went down to the radiology department, and was registered and had the xray completed in less than 10 minutes. The radiographers themselves took about 2 minutes end to end. Results automatically sent back to the health check. This is how you save money, that one xray room can see hundreds of people a day if needs be. No way, no messing. Why can't this be the way all hospitals work?

    A friend of mine was referred there a few years ago when he was having heart problems (well, he still is). He said the place was beautiful, the staff were beautiful, but when he got the breakdown of the costs from VHI, they had charged about €1000 for seeing the consultant, but the total bill for less than a day was €24,000! :eek: It's easy to be efficient when you're charging that sort of money.

    Obviously, VHI paid for it, not my friend, but the money also comes from other VHI customers.


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    #5
    Gregor Samsa
    Registered Users Posts: 8,908 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    There's no way the Beacon hospital - a private, 210 bed facility - has ever done, or ever will do, hundreds of x-rays a day. You had a great experience there because it can afford to operate on a much lower capacity than a public hospital, doesn't have all and sundry ending up in it, and it can charge for the privilege.


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    #6
    dotsman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,635 ✭✭✭dotsman


    It's not just the fees. I had a similar experience in a Croatian hospital some years back. In and out very quickly - saw a GP, Consultant, got Blood Tests and then back to Consultant with results all within a few hours (the only waiting was for the blood test results). State of the art IT systems (which everyone knew how to use!), friendly relaxed staff, and real patient care. And the whole thing cost me about 30-40 euro (that was the really "high" charges that non-Croats had to pay)

    When I compared that to St Vincent's, where I went when I broke my arm. They would make you come in for the entire day for each subsequent "check-up", yet you would only spend about 2 minutes of that day with a doctor and about 15 minutes with a nurse. The rest of the day was spent "queuing". Yet, everyone still gets seen! So it is not that there were too many patients, it was simply that that they had the most inefficient and stupid processes for managing patients. Basically, they just told everyone to come in at 9.00 and it was first come first serve, with all data being captured/managed on paper and no communication/helpfulness from staff.


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    #7
    KevRossi
    Registered Users Posts: 4,381 ✭✭✭KevRossi


    dotsman wrote: »
    When I compared that to St Vincent's, where I went when I broke my arm. They would make you come in for the entire day for each subsequent "check-up", yet you would only spend about 2 minutes of that day with a doctor and about 15 minutes with a nurse. The rest of the day was spent "queuing". Yet, everyone still gets seen! So it is not that there were too many patients, it was simply that that they had the most inefficient and stupid processes for managing patients. Basically, they just told everyone to come in at 9.00 and it was first come first serve, with all data being captured/managed on paper and no communication/helpfulness from staff.

    That was my experience with Vincents as well with a broken elbow. Every time I went in I had to queue for 2-3 hours for an X-Ray that I didn't need. Was in one day, had an X-Ray, decided I needed physio, so asked to come in the next day for assessment. Had to queue for another 2.5 hours for an X-Ray that the physio didn't need to look at.

    My Dad broke his hand, went to Roscommon hospital, X-Ray and told to go to Merlin Park in Galway, two hours later we were there and had to do the X-Ray again. It's maddening. But once you're in the system it's very good IMO, and yes, I know all the horror stories.

    My experience of private in this country was diabolical. Full on rotor cuff injury that required surgery and months of rehab was initially diagnosed as 'bruising' and I was offered two Solpadine. They also wrote down the section to be done on the MRI form wrong, so the MRI did my elbow and upper arm, not the shoulder.

    The HSE is full of inefficiencies, it needs to be sorted, but that means tackling the unions and they won't have that.


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    #8
    TheBoyConor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    Gregor Samsa wrote: »
    There's no way the Beacon hospital - a private, 210 bed facility - has ever done, or ever will do, hundreds of x-rays a day. You had a great experience there because it can afford to operate on a much lower capacity than a public hospital, doesn't have all and sundry ending up in it, and it can charge for the privilege.

    Exactly. They can pretty much charge whatever they like because insurers are paying for it. they have vastly smaller numbers of patients to deal with, not the general public.

    And they don't have amulances tipping out violent alcoholics and drug addicts in to the A&E department who go on trash the place and verbally and physically assault the staff.


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    #9
    Charles Babbage
    Registered Users Posts: 5,461 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    KevRossi wrote: »
    The HSE is full of inefficiencies, it needs to be sorted, but that means tackling the unions and they won't have that.


    The unions would say that the problems are not down to their members, but rather the way the place is managed, and they would be at least half right.


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    #10
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    Gregor Samsa wrote: »
    There's no way the Beacon hospital - a private, 210 bed facility - has ever done, or ever will do, hundreds of x-rays a day. You had a great experience there because it can afford to operate on a much lower capacity than a public hospital, doesn't have all and sundry ending up in it, and it can charge for the privilege.

    Exactly this. The Beacon can be nice and picky about the cases they take in.

    All the bad cases go to the public hospitals. If you get picked up by an ambulance, you're going to a public hospital. Highly specialised and complex care, you're likely going to a public hospital. Don't have tonnes of cash, you're ending up in a public hospital.

    People who do these private v public hospital comparisons don't have a notion of how both systems work. Private hospitals can be excellent (for those who can afford them), but they play a very different role to public tertiary hospitals.


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    #11
    Gregor Samsa
    Registered Users Posts: 8,908 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    The other thing is that a private hospital can run on a fairly strict appointment system.

    A public hospital has people coming in for appointments, as well as emergencies coming from outside, and cases being sent down from the wards. The constantly have to juggle their priorities, meaning sticking to an appointment system just can't work.


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    #12
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,052 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    That xray system is the same in Waterford UHW - out of A&E down to xray, xray done, back to designated waiting room to be called for review of xray. From getting to xray to back to the waiting room took 10 minutes, top. It didn't used to be like that but a couple of years ago they sorted it and there is minimum waiting now.

    On the other hand I had 24 hours in (snip, decided not to name it) a major private clinic, they did the procedure fine, sucessful, though the nursing care was abysmal. Then I ended up going almost directly from there to a public hospital for 8 days to sort an issue the procedure created, which then took over 12 months to recover fully from.


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    #13
    riclad
    Registered Users Posts: 8,184 ✭✭✭riclad


    I got an xray in a public hospital, it took maybe 15 mins .10 mins waiting time.
    Maybe 10-20 per cent of people use the private health system ,so of course its faster.
    public hospital has to deal with everyone including drunk people and drug addicts.
    someone on an average wage can afford health insurance ,
    private hospitals are not just designed for millionaires.
    We need more nurses and doctors in the public health system.
    In america if you have insurance you can just to to the er .
    private hospitals in america are very expensive .
    in the us the average health insurance per year is 14k plus.
    The advantage of private hospitals is you dont have to wait 6 months to see a consultant.


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    #14
    shaveAbullock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 965 ✭✭✭shaveAbullock


    My dealings with the public health care system have been much faster since COVID restrictions, they can no longer have a large number of people waiting in the same area.


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    #15
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    shaveAbullock wrote: »
    My dealings with the public health care system have been much faster since COVID restrictions, they can no longer have a large number of people waiting in the same area.

    Yes ,post covid ,waiting room's are not staffed with the entire extended connors family, in visiting auntie Julia who has some bunion trouble


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    #16
    YellowBucket
    Closed Accounts Posts: 491 ✭✭YellowBucket


    Biggest issue I saw was they were not giving out individual appointments. They held “clinics” where about 100 people would be given the same appointment and stacked in a waiting room for hours and hours.


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    #17
    feelings
    Registered Users Posts: 473 ✭✭feelings


    The public hospitals are outrageously inefficient and it will stay that way for the foreseeable future, unless we tackle two major issues.
    a) consultants run our public hospitals and dictate policies b) hospital staff are resistant to change, even small changes to work practices are blocked


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    #18
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users Posts: 19,610 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Gregor Samsa wrote: »
    There's no way the Beacon hospital - a private, 210 bed facility - has ever done, or ever will do, hundreds of x-rays a day. You had a great experience there because it can afford to operate on a much lower capacity than a public hospital, doesn't have all and sundry ending up in it, and it can charge for the privilege.


    yeah x-rays arent just taking a photograph like the OP seems to think, they have to be interpreted and examined by medical professionals as well. Theres no way they could do hundreds of them a day.
    dotsman wrote: »

    When I compared that to St Vincent's, where I went when I broke my arm. They would make you come in for the entire day for each subsequent "check-up", yet you would only spend about 2 minutes of that day with a doctor and about 15 minutes with a nurse. The rest of the day was spent "queuing". Yet, everyone still gets seen! So it is not that there were too many patients, it was simply that that they had the most inefficient and stupid processes for managing patients. Basically, they just told everyone to come in at 9.00 and it was first come first serve, with all data being captured/managed on paper and no communication/helpfulness from staff.


    Thats my biggest bug bear in the HSE, the way the admin staff run clinics. Its an absolute joke. I have to visit the Mater once a year for a 10 minute check up and they tell around 50 people all to show up at 9am. You could get extremely lucky and seen at 9.05am and out the door for 9.15am or like has happened me be seen at 1.30pm after a 4.5 hour wait. The way the admin staff run the clinics is an absolute waste of everyones time there, Im always left shaking my head at it and I actually dread going for check ups because of it, you just dont know when you are going to get out of there.

    You'd swear people dont have work or other things to do that day the way it is run, its a farce of an operation. Ive heard people complain about it at the admin desk and they get a snarky attitude of 'you'll get seen when you get seen'. Its hard to believe those staff are getting paid 40 to 50k a year and they go out of their way to make things more difficult for the patient.


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    #19
    Patrick2010
    Registered Users Posts: 2,992 ✭✭✭Patrick2010


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    yeah x-rays arent just taking a photograph like the OP seems to think, they have to be interpreted and examined by medical professionals as well. Theres no way they could do hundreds of them a day.




    Thats my biggest bug bear in the HSE, the way the admin staff run clinics. Its an absolute joke. I have to visit the Mater once a year for a 10 minute check up and they tell around 50 people all to show up at 9am. You could get extremely lucky and seen at 9.05am and out the door for 9.15am or like has happened me be seen at 1.30pm after a 4.5 hour wait. The way the admin staff run the clinics is an absolute waste of everyones time there, Im always left shaking my head at it and I actually dread going for check ups because of it, you just dont know when you are going to get out of there.

    You'd swear people dont have work or other things to do that day the way it is run, its a farce of an operation. Ive heard people complain about it at the admin desk and they get a snarky attitude of 'you'll get seen when you get seen'. Its hard to believe those staff are getting paid 40 to 50k a year and they go out of their way to make things more difficult for the patient.
    Thanks to Covid , this has changed. Theres no more having 40 or 50 people been given an appointment for 8 o clock. You'll only have a few waiting now now, sitting well spaced out and the idea is to get people in and out asap. I know as I work in hospitals and the difference in the out patient departments is clear from pre Covid.


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    #20
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users Posts: 19,610 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Patrick2010 wrote: »
    Thanks to Covid , this has changed. Theres no more having 40 or 50 people been given an appointment for 8 o clock. You'll only have a few waiting now now, sitting well spaced out and the idea is to get people in and out asap. I know as I work in hospitals and the difference in the out patient departments is clear from pre Covid.


    Well thats good to hear. Sad that it took a pandemic for it to be organised properly but good to hear things have changed.


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    #21
    arctictree
    Registered Users Posts: 4,285 ✭✭✭arctictree


    YellowBucket wrote: »
    Biggest issue I saw was they were not giving out individual appointments. They held “clinics” where about 100 people would be given the same appointment and stacked in a waiting room for hours and hours.

    This just stinks of the consultants believing their time is more important than their patients. And no one in a position of authority pulling them up on it.


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    #22
    Charles Babbage
    Registered Users Posts: 5,461 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    arctictree wrote: »
    This just stinks of the consultants believing their time is more important than their patients. And no one in a position of authority pulling them up on it.


    Consultants in the Beacon do not do this .
    This is just an anti customer culture in the HSE.


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    #23
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,475 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    A friend hasn’t been long discharged.Her GP gobsmacked at the unnecessary tests that were conducted.


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    #24
    tails_naf
    Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭tails_naf


    Gregor Samsa wrote: »
    There's no way the Beacon hospital - a private, 210 bed facility - has ever done, or ever will do, hundreds of x-rays a day. You had a great experience there because it can afford to operate on a much lower capacity than a public hospital, doesn't have all and sundry ending up in it, and it can charge for the privilege.

    The fact the xray machine was used for 2 minutes to process me, and did 2 other patients in the less than 10 mins I was there says different. They got through 3 people in less than 10 mins, with no stress or rush, just efficiency. 2 staff and one machine. I've waited longer to be checked in at reception in public hospitals, with the staff nattering to one another.


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    #25
    shaveAbullock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 965 ✭✭✭shaveAbullock


    tails_naf wrote: »
    The fact the xray machine was used for 2 minutes to process me, and did 2 other patients in the less than 10 mins I was there says different. They got through 3 people in less than 10 mins, with no stress or rush, just efficiency. 2 staff and one machine. I've waited longer to be checked in at reception in public hospitals, with the staff nattering to one another.

    But that's not how it is right now in public hospitals. Currently it is very much like your experience in the Beacon.
    Speaking from my own experience anyway.


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    #26
    tails_naf
    Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭tails_naf


    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    Exactly. They can pretty much charge whatever they like because insurers are paying for it. they have vastly smaller numbers of patients to deal with, not the general public.

    And they don't have amulances tipping out violent alcoholics and drug addicts in to the A&E department who go on trash the place and verbally and physically assault the staff.

    In this case it was part of health check, so no insurance company involved. The included the xray as a fee extra as they determined it was needed. This was not a 24k bill, it was all for a few hundred (OK not cheap), but it as a full exam, full bloods etc, the xray was not charged for at all. Results on the bloods the same day, about an hour after they were taken.


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    #27
    tails_naf
    Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭tails_naf


    Gregor Samsa wrote: »
    The other thing is that a private hospital can run on a fairly strict appointment system.

    A public hospital has people coming in for appointments, as well as emergencies coming from outside, and cases being sent down from the wards. The constantly have to juggle their priorities, meaning sticking to an appointment system just can't work.

    Why so when they have the opportunity to set appointments do they make a bags of it and have you wait for hours with then 10 others with the exact same appointment time. CUMH is excellent in terms of care, but a disaster in terms of the scheduled checkups. Pregnant women waiting uncomfortably for hours on end, and all of them with appointments. All get see in the end, so why not just give realistic times to each attendee.


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    #28
    3d4life
    Registered Users Posts: 809 ✭✭✭3d4life


    tails_naf wrote: »
    I'm at the beacon hospital for a health check and they had me do an unscheduled chest xray. I went down to the radiology department, and was registered and had the xray completed in less than 10 minutes. .......


    I've had a similar experience.....in one of the large Dublin public hospitals .... :)


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    #29
    tails_naf
    Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭tails_naf


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    yeah x-rays arent just taking a photograph like the OP seems to think, they have to be interpreted and examined by medical professionals as well. Theres no way they could do hundreds of them a day.




    Thats my biggest bug bear in the HSE, the way the admin staff run clinics. Its an absolute joke. I have to visit the Mater once a year for a 10 minute check up and they tell around 50 people all to show up at 9am. You could get extremely lucky and seen at 9.05am and out the door for 9.15am or like has happened me be seen at 1.30pm after a 4.5 hour wait. The way the admin staff run the clinics is an absolute waste of everyones time there, Im always left shaking my head at it and I actually dread going for check ups because of it, you just dont know when you are going to get out of there.

    You'd swear people dont have work or other things to do that day the way it is run, its a farce of an operation. Ive heard people complain about it at the admin desk and they get a snarky attitude of 'you'll get seen when you get seen'. Its hard to believe those staff are getting paid 40 to 50k a year and they go out of their way to make things more difficult for the patient.

    The speed of the xray was not exaggerated, I have the call log to my wife as I walked in the door and again 9 mins later as I walked out, calling to tell her how blown away I was how quick it was. The xray was interpreted, though perhaps you're failing to see that things can be efficiently pipelenined, person A use the expensive machine efficiently, getting everyone seen, while experts B, C, D read and interpret the results as they are immediately and electronically deliverd where they need to go. It's not rocket science.


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    #30
    tails_naf
    Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭tails_naf


    3d4life wrote: »
    I've had a similar experience.....in one of the large Dublin public hospitals .... :)

    Thats good to hear, gives me hope the others can do it too!


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    #31
    Charles Babbage
    Registered Users Posts: 5,461 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    tails_naf wrote: »
    Why so when they have the opportunity to set appointments do they make a bags of it and have you wait for hours with then 10 others with the exact same appointment time. CUMH is excellent in terms of care, but a disaster in terms of the scheduled checkups. Pregnant women waiting uncomfortably for hours on end, and all of them with appointments. All get see in the end, so why not just give realistic times to each attendee.


    There is absolutely no need for this, it is people paid by the taxpayer holding the public in contempt.

    They could give you a slot several weeks in advance e.g. 9-12am Tuesday and then text you a precise time the day before e.g. 11:15. It isn't rocket science.


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