Why do people self-segregate a lot by gender in Ireland?

meeeeh · 03-04-2019 10:01am

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It’s neither nasty, nor baseless. It’s reality. I’m not accusing parents when they’ve told me straight out that they don’t want their children mixing with immigrants in Catholic schools, so the alternative is to try and get them into an ET school where they’re not entirely on board with their ideas, but at least their children’s education isn’t suffering, as they see it. As uncomfortable a fact as that might be for you to have to grasp, it’s the predominant reason behind the recent upsurge in the popularity of the ET model that wasn’t there before when there weren’t as many immigrants in this country as there are now. Parents are of the impression that their children’s education is being “held back” by immigrant children whose first language is not English.

I can't find more recent report but ESRI 2012 report titled 'School Sector Variation Among Primary Schools in Ireland' clearly shows that multi denominational schools have higher proportion of kids from migrant backgrounds. Unless you can find more recent report that shows opposite you are again presenting your wishful thinking as fact. I couldn't find any evidence that would support your claims on national level. Locally there might be areas where catholic school has more immigrant children. Deis schools for example have higher proportion of kids from migrant background.

Frankly I think you are Boris Johnson of Boards, you will invent anything as fact just to suit your narrative.

Anteayer · 03-04-2019 11:00am

It's fairly obvious to anyone even vaguely familiar with Educate Together that they're all about diversity and open education for all. The whole ethos of the organisation is about just that.

Accusing parents who send their kids to ET schools of being motivated by racism is absolutely bonkers. It literally makes no sense at all considering that their motivation would be the complete opposite and Educate Together schools are completely open to absolutely all children of all backgrounds!

Also the comment about me not picking up on the statement form the Rape Crisis Centre is just pure whataboutary.

I'm all over your statement on ET because it's totally baseless allegation that doesn't make any sense at all.

Vicarious Function · 03-04-2019 11:28am

This thread seems to have veered off topic. It now seems to be a discussion on ET schools. I'm unfollowing. Bye!

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 03-04-2019 12:28pm

Vicarious Function wrote: »

This thread seems to have veered off topic. It now seems to be a discussion on ET schools. I'm unfollowing. Bye!

I have bullet points

1. Educate together schools are racist, which I'm going to file with other classics like unplanned crisis pregnancies actually lift impoverished people out of poverty.

2. Jack said that meeh said that Jack said something something Sweden but...my thumb started hurting from scrolling past posts at that point so I lost track.

Bout it!

Hotblack Desiato · 03-04-2019 12:49pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I didn’t say there weren’t lots of people out campaigning for ETs. I know bloody well there were, I met plenty of them when they came looking for funding. What I actually said was that there weren’t enough, and there aren’t enough people interested or the expansion of the ET model wouldn’t have been as hampered as it is now. Don’t try and tell me for a minute that the Irish people when they want something badly enough they aren’t able to gain support for it to bring about change in Irish society!

It's not parents' fault that Dept of Education and the RCC vigorously resist any change. Or that a religion-based national school system still dominates after ~180 years, while the first ET was only set up 40 years ago, and until 20 years ago Dept of Education had kept them down to only a handful.

It's not parents' fault that Dept of Education awards patronage to religious bodies and expands existing religious schools, taking no account of the views of parents of pupils and pupils-to-be in the area, and with no accountability whatsoever.

I said that Catholic parents didn’t want their children mixing with immigrants in Catholic schools.

Even if that unevidenced claim is true, they'd be extremely stupid to choose ETs on that basis. As I said already, and you ignored, ETs are more diverse than average.

There’s nothing racist on my part in that statement of fact.

You claimed, without evidence, that other people are racists. I didn't say that you were a racist. But you did cast a racist slur on others.

You have not even tried to establish that it is a statement of fact, either.

You couldn’t just accept that I myself don’t have any issues whatsoever with the existence of the ET model of education, nor do I have any issue with any model of education, because as I said there is no such thing as a one size fits all model of education. ETs btw aren’t any more diverse than average, when the majority of schools in Ireland are religious ethos schools, 70% of them coed, catering to all sociodemographics including many DEIS schools in socioeconomically deprived areas with far more ethnic mix in them than ET schools.

You seem to have this bizarre idea that ETs only exist in upper middle class areas, which is nonsense.

You clearly do have issues with the ET model of education, because every single time in every single thread it's discussed, you're in there making false statements and denigrating the ET model, and now even attacking and slurring the parents who choose it, which is a new low for you.

Your posts on this thread are a disgrace.

Hotblack Desiato · 03-04-2019 12:51pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

As uncomfortable a fact as that might be for you to have to grasp, it’s the predominant reason behind the recent upsurge in the popularity of the ET model that wasn’t there before when there weren’t as many immigrants in this country as there are now.

A complete fabrication on your part.

The reason parents are seeking alternatives to RCC run schools is that they (a) don't want time wasted on religious instruction and (b) they are disgusted that the RCC should run or influence schools, given their appalling record in covering up clerical child abuse - and they are still covering up.

Look at baptism rates. Look at how many people in the age demographic of primary school parents are ticking No Religion on the census. That's your explanation for the growth in demand for ETs.

But no, you claim that they are racists who want to send their kids to schools which are more ethnically diverse than average. That is a particularly stupid claim, to say the least.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 03-04-2019 1:27pm

ET schools tend to have a more diverse student body, far better off sending your kid to a gaelscoil if you want them in a class with no immigrants.

It's about as sensible an argument as saying there used to be fewer immigrants here, now there are more of them, and a bigger market for craft beers. Evidently, racists like craft beer.

Former Observer · 03-04-2019 1:29pm

I have only a single friend.

Hotblack Desiato · 03-04-2019 1:37pm

Sutton Yellow Pantsuit wrote: »

far better off sending your kid to a gaelscoil if you want them in a class with no immigrants.

Two bloody gaelscoils in my area, that's a lot of racists!

03-04-2019 5:14pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Two bloody gaelscoils in my area, that's a lot of racists!

Hotblack's area last night

Anteayer · 03-04-2019 7:15pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Two bloody gaelscoils in my area, that's a lot of racists!

My Chinese friends kids go to Gaelscoil. It's just a language!

Hotblack Desiato · 03-04-2019 8:24pm

One eyed Jack · 03-04-2019 9:09pm

Anteayer wrote: »

It's fairly obvious to anyone even vaguely familiar with Educate Together that they're all about diversity and open education for all. The whole ethos of the organisation is about just that.

That’s their ethos certainly. The reality is quite different, and I know that precisely because I am familiar with the ET model of education, both in theory, and in practice, and in it’s outcomes.

Accusing parents who send their kids to ET schools of being motivated by racism is absolutely bonkers. It literally makes no sense at all considering that their motivation would be the complete opposite and Educate Together schools are completely open to absolutely all children of all backgrounds!

Who actually accused anyone of racism? I didn’t. I said that parents have told me themselves that the reason they’re sending their children to ET schools is to avoid their children having to mix with children whose first language isn’t English, because they feel their own children’s education is being held back in Catholic schools, which are, according to the report alluded to earlier by meeeeh, and funded by the ET organisation themselves, more socially inclusive than ET schools -

School Sector Variation among Primary Schools in Ireland

Also the comment about me not picking up on the statement form the Rape Crisis Centre is just pure whataboutary.

It’s not whataboutery at all. It goes to the very heart of how children are educated in Ireland, and of course when the director of the Rape Crisis Network of Ireland comes out with the statement like this -

Dr Cliona Saidlear said that young girls need to be made aware that young boys who sit with them in the classroom can also be a danger.

That’s not whataboutery, as it directly relates to children in the school environment.

I'm all over your statement on ET because it's totally baseless allegation that doesn't make any sense at all.

It’s not a baseless allegation at all. I haven’t accused all parents who enroll their children in ET schools of being racist, that’s something you extrapolated from what I said, of your own volition. I’m telling you what parents themselves have told me, so there’s no accusation there, and I certainly wouldn’t accuse those parents who are of that opinion, of being racist either. They aren’t motivated by racism, they are motivated by doing what they feel is in the best interests of their own children’s education. I would expect the same is true of any parent.

For what it’s worth though, the phenomenon has been observed at International level, as opposed to just your own back yard -

School Segregation of Immigrants and its Effects on Educational Outcomes in Europe

eviltwin · 03-04-2019 9:12pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

That’s their ethos certainly. The reality is quite different, and I know that precisely because I am familiar with the ET model of education, both in theory, and in practice, and in it’s outcomes]

WTF does that even mean? What is your experience of the ET model and what makes you think diversity, openness and inclusion is not the reality?

One eyed Jack · 03-04-2019 9:38pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

A complete fabrication on your part.

The reason parents are seeking alternatives to RCC run schools is that they (a) don't want time wasted on religious instruction and (b) they are disgusted that the RCC should run or influence schools, given their appalling record in covering up clerical child abuse - and they are still covering up.

That is undoubtedly true of your own views HD, and I don’t imagine it’s an uncommon view among the small number of parents who campaign for more ET schools in their area, but the reality speaks for itself in terms of just how committed (or not) parents are prepared to put their professed principles before their children’s education.

Look at baptism rates. Look at how many people in the age demographic of primary school parents are ticking No Religion on the census. That's your explanation for the growth in demand for ETs.

I’m looking at parents putting their children’s names down for every school in their area and hoping they get their children into the school with the best reputation among their peers. I’m looking at parents still baptising their children hedging their bets. I’m listening to parents themselves tell me they’re not religious but they want their children to participate in Communion and Confirmation. I’m looking at immigrant parents who are considerably wealthy and well educated ask in the office for school recommendations, and the verdict is unanimous that an ET school is best. I’m looking at lesser educated immigrants and socially deprived parents who are more inclined to enrol their children in Catholic schools as they prefer that method of education.

The original intent of the ET model was to offer parents and immigrants an alternative to Catholic education. It has since been turned into something of an elitist culture where the better educated and wealthier middle-class parents don’t have to have their children associate with the riff-raff, as it were.

But no, you claim that they are racists who want to send their kids to schools which are more ethnically diverse than average. That is a particularly stupid claim, to say the least.

You accuse me of fabrication, yet nowhere have I claimed anyone was racist. In fact I clarified above that their motivations aren’t borne of racism, but simply as a result of wanting to ensure their own children’s education above any notions you might have about equality and all the rest of it. It would be a stupid claim if I had made that claim, but I didn’t. To the best of my recollection it was yourself who implied I had made a racist slur when I have done nothing of the sort. You also claimed bigotry, while ignoring your own bigotry, but you’ll get the same reaction for that as I give parents who go on about not wanting their children mixing with immigrants - “meh”.

For what it’s worth though - ethnically diverse is not the same thing as their first language not being English, nor is it the same as having a whole cohort of International students while excluding our own ethnically diverse cohort, you know, there are whole megathreads on travellers in AH, and none of them particularly positive, but clap yourself on the back for your “diversity”.

meeeeh · 03-04-2019 9:39pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Who actually accused anyone of racism? I didn’t. I said that parents have told me themselves that the reason they’re sending their children to ET schools is to avoid their children having to mix with children whose first language isn’t English, because they feel their own children’s education is being held back in Catholic schools, which are, according to the report alluded to earlier by meeeeh, and funded by the ET organisation themselves, more socially inclusive than ET schools -

School Sector Variation among Primary Schools in Ireland

Oh so now it's about social not racial diversity. And you claimed that number of ET schools increased because of higher immigration and parents wanting to avoid immigrant children. So if that's not implying racism I don't know what is.

As uncomfortable a fact as that might be for you to have to grasp, it’s the predominant reason behind the recent upsurge in the popularity of the ET model that wasn’t there before when there weren’t as many immigrants in this country as there are now. Parents are of the impression that their children’s education is being “held back” by immigrant children whose first language is not English.

One eyed Jack · 03-04-2019 9:45pm

eviltwin wrote: »

WTF does that even mean? What is your experience of the ET model and what makes you think diversity, openness and inclusion is not the reality?

The research they commissioned themselves indicates they aren’t particularly diverse, open or inclusive as their ethos maintains. I’ve spoken with plenty of teachers currently teaching in ET schools, and those who have taught in ET schools, and plenty of parents and children attending ET schools. ET schools are generally fine, but I just wouldn’t choose to enroll my own child in one, as I don’t share their philosophy and I couldn’t see myself being very supportive of their ethos. It’s fine for parents and their children who do support the ET ethos though.

eviltwin · 03-04-2019 9:49pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The research they commissioned themselves indicates they aren’t particularly diverse, open or inclusive as their ethos maintains. I’ve spoken with plenty of teachers currently teaching in ET schools, and those who have taught in ET schools, and plenty of parents and children attending ET schools. ET schools are generally fine, but I just wouldn’t choose to enroll my own child in one, as I don’t share their philosophy and I couldn’t see myself being very supportive of their ethos. It’s fine for parents and their children who do support the ET ethos though.

I really don't get that. My son goes to an ET. It's main difference, besides lack of religion, is that it's very accepting of all children regardless of faith, nationality etc.

Are you suggesting that ETs cherry pick students or deliberately exclude some children?

What about the ethos is questionable to you?

One eyed Jack · 03-04-2019 9:51pm

meeeeh wrote: »

Oh so now it's about social not racial diversity.

I never argued it was about racial diversity in the first place? I’ve always been more about diversity in education, hence why I pointed out earlier that there is no one size fits all model, and there are many different types of education. It’s simply down to the parents doing what they feel is acting in the best interests of their own children’s education.

meeeeh · 03-04-2019 9:55pm

eviltwin wrote: »

I really don't get that. My son goes to an ET. It's main difference, besides lack of religion, is that it's very accepting of all children regardless of faith, nationality etc.

Are you suggesting that ETs cherry pick students or deliberately exclude some children?

What about the ethos is questionable to you?

It's a Segway, he is repeating the comments Maria Steen made about ET schools. Once racism aspect was challenged he decided to imply that ET schools are not as socially inclusive. Why would Travellers who are just about most Catholic group in Ireland pick ET schools is beyond me but it's a good enough argument for him and Maria Steen to discredit ET schools.

One eyed Jack · 03-04-2019 10:21pm

eviltwin wrote: »

I really don't get that. My son goes to an ET. It's main difference, besides lack of religion, is that it's very accepting of all children regardless of faith, nationality etc.

Are you suggesting that ETs cherry pick students or deliberately exclude some children?

What about the ethos is questionable to you?

No that’s not what I’m suggesting. I’m saying that it’s the parents themselves who make these decisions for their children, and an unintended consequence of that I suppose, is what was observed in the ESRI report I linked to earlier under the question of Who attends multi-denominational schools?.

It’s not that I find the ethos of ET questionable at all, I just don’t support it. Why would anyone send their children to a school which they don’t feel is in the best interests of their own children’s education?

Before I get hammered with the usual “because they have no choice”, if anything, Irish people have demonstrated time and time again that they are perfectly capable of forcing a change in the law when they really want to.

One eyed Jack · 03-04-2019 10:28pm

meeeeh wrote: »

It's a Segway, he is repeating the comments Maria Steen made about ET schools. Once racism aspect was challenged he decided to imply that ET schools are not as socially inclusive. Why would Travellers who are just about most Catholic group in Ireland pick ET schools is beyond me but it's a good enough argument for him and Maria Steen to discredit ET schools.

It’s not a segue at all. I never once mentioned race. Other posters associated the fact that for some people their first language is not English, with assumptions about people’s ethnicity.

EDIT: I looked up who you were talking about, and among the first results was this -

TheJournal.ie takes aim at Maria Steen. And misses.

‘Fact Check’ at TheJournal.ie has ‘fact checked’ something Maria Steen of The Iona Institute said on Claire Byrne Live a fortnight ago about diversity in multi-denominational schools and found it to be ‘mostly false’. It is this statement that is actually false. Maria was very specific in what she said and everything she said stands up. Ironically, the Journal article itself confirms this.

PS. Since the publication of this post The Journal.ie have changed their verdict from MOSTLY FALSE to HALF TRUE. (15/3/2017)

Sounds like the journal.ie engaged in exactly the same behaviour as yourself. They couldn’t admit of course that they’d gotten their facts wrong, much like you’ll continue to suggest I made claims I didn’t make at all, and I refer you to this post from earlier -

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You couldn’t just accept that I myself don’t have any issues whatsoever with the existence of the ET model of education, nor do I have any issue with any model of education, because as I said there is no such thing as a one size fits all model of education. ETs btw aren’t any more diverse than average, when the majority of schools in Ireland are religious ethos schools, 70% of them coed, catering to all sociodemographics including many DEIS schools in socioeconomically deprived areas with far more ethnic mix in them than ET schools.

EDIT: Upon further investigation, it would appear the hacks at the journal really did choose to pick on the wrong target -

Homeschooling isn't child's play, but it works

More and more parents are opting to take their offspring out of the classroom and transfer the seat of learning to the living room. Why? Because it produces excellent results

What do Ryan Gosling, Agatha Christie and the Williams sisters have in common? They were all homeschooled. Irish interest in home- schooling is rising. Figures published last week by Tusla, the Child and Family Agency, suggest that the number of children educated at home has almost doubled since 2011.

I have been homeschooling for almost 10 years now, including the pre-school years. My mother had taught me to read and write and tell the time before I went to school at four and so it felt natural for me to do the same when our first child was born. While working and playing with my baby at home, I became interested in the Montessori method of education and through that started reading about homeschooling. The more I read, the more excited I became about the possibilities.

...

Maria Steen is a former barrister and architect. She is a qualified AMI Montessori teacher and homeschools her four children

Anteayer · 03-04-2019 10:42pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It’s not a segue at all. I never once mentioned race. Other posters associated the fact that for some people their first language is not English, with assumptions about people’s ethnicity.

Specifically you said in post #93:

ET are competing in the education sector in a very different society to the way society was when they were originally established, and have found themselves in the rather uncomfortable position of having to accommodate a majority of Catholic children, whose parents are trying to avoid their children mixing with immigrant children in Catholic schools!

I see nothing about language there just a rather bizarre statement claiming that parents send their kids to a school type that's built entirely on inclusivity to somehow avoid immigrants.

None of this makes any sense.

I actually give up! It's like trying to argue with a robot.
Trying to discredit an organisation that's absolutely dedicated to completely inclusive education with that kind of statement is absolutely despicable. I really couldn't be bothered responding anymore.

One eyed Jack · 03-04-2019 10:53pm

Anteayer wrote: »

None of this makes any sense.

Well I don’t expect it would make any sense to try and imply things you think I said from things i never said, but that hasn’t stopped you so far.

fyfe79 · 03-04-2019 11:58pm

riffmongous wrote: »

Any thread on gender here just seems to attracts the weirdest people

Otherwise known as the Irish.

Elemonator · 04-04-2019 12:12am

I would have said the opposite initially. But then again I see some foreign groups whether they be students or on holidays and it's very much 50/50.

Why do people self-segregate a lot by gender in Ireland?

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