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Old House - Old Wiring - Fit Electric Shower?

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  • 01-06-2020 12:13am
    #1
    theguzman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭


    I have recently moved into our old farmhouse in the country which had been idle for 15 years previous to the Coronavirus pandemic, my partner as I have relocated here for to safely cocoon and to avoid large rental costs in Dublin whilst out of work, it is possible we may be here for quiet some time looking at current economic projections.

    It was wired I believe in the early to mid 1970's by a handyman, Each room has one single socket and the kitchen has one double and single socket. Sometime in the mid 1990's an immersion was added to the hot water cylinder by a family member who had electrical knowledge. Nothing in this house I can safely say was ever done by a professional. It has been neglected throughout its existence. I plan to fully renovate it as I have fallen in love with its rural idyllic location.

    However for the meantime I would like to install an electric shower over the bathtub, something like a mira elite. I don't know if it could be safely integrated into the current ancient wiring system. When my late grandmother died I kept paying the ESB bills because if I had it disconnected I knew it would never pass a wiring cert to reconnect the house without paying thousands for a complete rewire. This house has been connected 45 - 50+ years to the mains I think.

    As you see from the picture of the fuse board it is very simple and there is one trip-switch RCD which I believe was added when the Immersion was installed in the mid 1990's.

    Having an electric shower would be a huge improvement but I don't know if it could be safely or legally installed without a massive rewiring job.

    I am also thinking perhaps something like a pumped pressure shower using the current plumbing system. The plumbing here is a total mess also but easily rectifiable without a massive spend unlike the electrics.


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    #2
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,915 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    If the house has been empty years and never correctly wired you need a sparks to tell you if it's safe to live in never mind asking strangers if it's safe to install an electric shower.


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    #3
    theguzman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭theguzman


    Del2005 wrote: »
    If the house has been empty years and never correctly wired you need a sparks to tell you if it's safe to live in never mind asking strangers if it's safe to install an electric shower.

    My own initial instinct tells me an electric shower is likely a no-go, someone might look at the picture and say yes or no. I just want to basically avoid wasting my electricians time on a call out to this remote spot. The house is safe as our electrical consumption is small and it obviously passed whatever ESB tests were there at the time and again in the 80's/90's when a newer meter was fitted after some very large bills led to the meter been declared faulty and replaced with the current Siemens model.


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    #4
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,853 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    That really doesn't mean its safe...


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    #5
    EHP
    Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭EHP


    It's hard to tell from the picture but I'd be willing to bet it's not neutralised and most likely the incoming tails are undersized which would require ESB being involved and the existing wiring passing certain tests. You are probably looking at a rewire before you can get the shower fitted but you would need a REC to confirm this first.


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    #6
    Retro.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 89 ✭✭Retro.


    EHP wrote: »
    It's hard to tell from the picture but I'd be willing to bet it's not neutralised and most likely the incoming tails are undersized which would require ESB being involved and the existing wiring passing certain tests. You are probably looking at a rewire before you can get the shower fitted but you would need a REC to confirm this first.

    It looks like there may be neutralising at the old style esbn fuse

    The installation isn't suitable for the addition of an instantaneous electric shower


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    #7
    Retro.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 89 ✭✭Retro.


    Theres usually 3 issues with trying to add showers here

    Supply capacity, it may be borderline there depending on what fuse ESBN have installed, service cables etc. Also the old meter and fuse can be weak points if you tried to add a shower and may fail or worse ime

    Physically making the new shower connection to the existing switchgear, usually impossible

    Main bonding and earthing not in place


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    #8
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,539 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    theguzman wrote: »
    It was wired I believe in the early to mid 1970's by a handyman

    So the house was wired by someone with little or no technical training that is unlikely to have been up to speed with regulations that would be very outdated by now. It doesn't bode well....
    The house is safe as our electrical consumption is small and it obviously passed whatever ESB tests were there at the time

    You can not say that the electrical installation is safe! a house is safe based on consumption!
    This ignores the fact that 230V is a potentially lethal voltage.

    Besides the ESB do not test within the installation.
    My own initial instinct tells me an electric shower is likely a no-go, someone might look at the picture and say yes or no.

    Its a big no from me.

    This installation needs a complete rewire in my opinion.


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    #9
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    How much is it going to cost to wire the house properly? Loads of people now renovating these old house. Rewriting is not going to be mental money and will massively improve living in house and your own safety


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    #10
    theguzman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭theguzman


    Thanks for the replies guys, I wouldn't know the cost of rewiring the house in its present condition, many thousands I reckon; however it is a job I will do but not yet. The house is 120 years old and needs major renovations and I will be taking it back to the 4 walls essentially and doing an extension also. However I won't be moving forward with this plan on the house until the National Broadband Plan NBI fibre arrives here in 1-2 years time hopefully. Unless there is proper broadband I will just allow it fall into ruin and invest the money somewhere else. I'd prefer to demolish and rebuild but planning permission regulations most likely prohibit this as we are in special area of conservation NHA National Heritage Area. The emphasis will be on heritage and preserving the old theme.

    I could argue that proper internet connectivity is even more important than electricity today. It is possible to spend money say €10-€20k or whatever and go completely off grid with self generation etc. for electricity but you can't do the same with broadband. If I could pay €10k etc. to get Fibre installed I'd cut the cheque immediately.

    As you can see from the electricity poles and wiring it is very old, this house was among the last to be connected to the rural electrification and it took the local residents of the road here including my father to barracade the ESB depot and lock in the ESB trucks to force its connection at the time in the 1970's.

    The feed wires coming down the pole were supplying a Telecom Eireann Rurtel Wireless Phone system as there was no landline here until the year 2000, the wireless phone system was continuously breaking down and Eircom eventually stood alot of poles to extend the copper landline the extra 2.5kms to the house from the last house connected on the road.

    I agree with the posters that the wiring of the house is not safe and no way up to modern standards and it seems an electric shower is out of the question without a rewire. I will be getting an electrician in this month to discuss everything as he did work for my sister before. As part of the master plan I would need to run electric cables + Cat6 underground to outhouses and sheds nearby also. I am estimating anywhere from a €150k to €200k spend here on everything, however nothing proceeds until fibre or a proper high speed microwave link arrives.

    As a stop gap measure I was thinking perhaps an electric pump for a pumped pressure shower fed from the cylinder, there is a stove and a Firebird oil boiler and we run either the oil or stove most days for hot water. I don't use the immersion since I don't trust the wiring and since it is heavy on electricity also. The load of a pump I imagine to be far less than an electric shower which heats the water, but with the wiring so antiquated I fear this may not be possible to integrate either.


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    #11
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Frist things first, clean out those gutters or you will have problems


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    #12
    theguzman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭theguzman


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Frist things first, clean out those gutters or you will have problems

    Great minds lol! I spent the morning at it already, I waited for the sludge and scraw sod to solidify first, these glorious days are ideal for these jobs.


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    #13
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    theguzman wrote: »
    Great minds lol! I spent the morning at it already, I waited for the sludge and scraw sod to solidify first, these glorious days are ideal for these jobs.


    Mighty job, |I have renovated one old cottage, not as old as that but looking and thinking about taking on a bigger project


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    #14
    gk5000
    Registered Users Posts: 850 ✭✭✭gk5000


    You're probably better off than you think with the wiring. Most likely its PVC wiring if done in the 70's as opposed to the original rubber insulation style from the 50's rural electrification scheme.


    The more knowledgeable on here can confirm, but the PVC wiring from the 70's is not inherently dangerous in itself or deteriorating - if it is properly sized.


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    #15
    Retro.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 89 ✭✭Retro.


    gk5000 wrote: »
    You're probably better off than you think with the wiring. Most likely its PVC wiring if done in the 70's as opposed to the original rubber insulation style from the 50's rural electrification scheme.


    The more knowledgeable on here can confirm, but the PVC wiring from the 70's is not inherently dangerous in itself or deteriorating - if it is properly sized.

    You're 100% right in theory

    There's a 6 way board supplying final circuits there and subject to testing there is nothing inherently wrong with fuses and existing pvc wiring


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    #16
    Retro.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 89 ✭✭Retro.


    You're starting off with no RCD protection on the existing sockets

    Then the issues continue, fire backing for the fuse board, no CPC at all the lighting points, pendants burnt from incandescent bulbs,unswitched sockets, low readings and on..

    By the time you add the little things together a rewire is the best option


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    #17
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,539 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    gk5000 wrote: »
    The more knowledgeable on here can confirm, but the PVC wiring from the 70's is not inherently dangerous in itself or deteriorating - if it is properly sized.

    Yes, I agree. However the wiring is 50 years old. Here are some issues I have seen with wiring of that vintage:

    - Lack of earthing, this includes earth rod, CPC's, and equipotential bonding.
    - Undersized conductors this includes bus bars, tails and final circuits for larger modern electrical loads. They simply were not designed for loads of this magnitude.
    - Poor quality connections throughout circuits. Potentially these will cause heating, as such are a fire hazard.
    - Oversized fuses resulting in final circuits not being adequately protected from over-current conditions.
    - Cabling with little or no mechanical protection.
    - Cabling badly damaged due to UV exposure. Generally happens when cabling designed only for indoor use is used outdoors.
    - Lethal wiring in bathrooms (for lots of reasons).
    - Badly worn sockets resulting in overheating when used.
    - Sockets mounted on skirting boards resulting in appliance leads being bend tightly to the point that they fail.
    - No RCD / RCBO.
    - Insufficient / no IP rating on various devices.
    - Complete lack of sockets resulting in the use of many adapters.
    - Connector blocks used everywhere without suitable enclosures.
    - Phase, neutral and earth wiring all using the same / incorrect colours.
    - My personal favourite which seems to happen when a "handyman" is the fuse installed on the neutral rather than the phase.

    .....and that is just for starters.


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    #18
    Chuck Noland
    Registered Users Posts: 1,908 ✭✭✭Chuck Noland


    As an electrician myself I would not let any loved one of mine live in a house in that condition. It really is a pre historic installation and the fact it most likely wasn’t done by a competent person in the first place would alarm me greatly. Power consumption or usage are not a factor here. The requirements when that house was built are a million miles away from today’s requirements even when using moderately. Get your electrician out. Get the house re wired and bonded and your electric shower installed and mention the renovations you have planned. The REC might alter his installation methods if he knows you’ll be upgrading in the not too distance future and perhaps run cables in trunking and use patress boxs on sockets and things so to cause you less disruption now and then recess the boxs and bury cabling when you do gut the property.


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