Have we reach peak LGBT nonsense?

antiskeptic · 12-04-2019 8:34pm #1

Haven't read the detail but in essence a rugby players career called a halt to because he said gays and various other sinners will go to hell.

Leaving aside his dodgy theology (if God was in the business of excluding sinners from heaven then nobody would "get there"), is this not a case of LGBT sensitivity gone mad?

You are now not allowed to state your belief?

I can understand that some in A&A might rejoice but surely many can see the deeper ramifications: that at another time and place, their own expression of belief might not be of the moment and be condemned for mere expression.

Thin end of a thick wedge, this one.

ted1 · 12-04-2019 8:37pm

antiskeptic wrote: »

Haven't read the detail but in essence a rugby players career called a halt to because he said gays and various other sinners will go to hell.

Leaving aside his dodgy theology (if God was in the business of excluding sinners from heaven then nobody would "get there"), is this not a case of LGBT sensitivity gone mad?

You are now not allowed to state your belief?

I can understand that some in A&A might rejoice but surely many can see the deeper ramifications: that at another time and place, their own expression of belief might not be of the moment and be condemned for mere expression.

Thin end of a thick wedge, this one.

He represents his club. Odds are there’s is s gay person in his team. He deserves what happened to him.

Varta · 12-04-2019 8:40pm

He said that gay people will go to a place that doesn't exist, so they have absolutely nothing to worry about.

Odhinn · 12-04-2019 8:49pm

antiskeptic wrote: »

Haven't read the detail.............l

Heaven forfend.

This is the second time in about a year he's trotted out Baby Jesus' plan for the gays. The first was let go but apparently patience has withered since then.

partyguinness · 12-04-2019 8:55pm

He will be punished not for expressing his religious 'beliefs' as such but rather for violating (again) a Code of Conduct that he has signed up for which basically tells him to keep all that nonsense to himself.

magicbastarder · 12-04-2019 9:04pm

antiskeptic wrote: »

You are now not allowed to state your belief?

of course he is 'allowed' state his belief.
just as i am allowed stand up in the office and state my belief that protestants are sinners and will burn in hell. i just won't get a second opportunity.

antiskeptic · 12-04-2019 9:18pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

of course he is 'allowed' state his belief.
just as i am allowed stand up in the office and state my belief that protestants are sinners and will burn in hell. i just won't get a second opportunity.

Just as you wouldn't have gotten a 2nd opportunity in 1953 to stand up in your office and announce that you were gay.

He who lives by the mood of the time, dies by the mood of the time.

So much for enlightened thinking.

magicbastarder · 12-04-2019 9:37pm

i'm genuinely not sure if you're trying to undermine your own point?

Pherekydes · 12-04-2019 11:43pm

I'm outraged. I'm an atheist and I'm not going to hell.

I dunno though, why is this peak LGBT nonsense?

King Mob · 13-04-2019 12:51am

antiskeptic wrote: »

Haven't read the detail but in essence a rugby players career called a halt to because he said gays and various other sinners will go to hell.

Leaving aside his dodgy theology (if God was in the business of excluding sinners from heaven then nobody would "get there"), is this not a case of LGBT sensitivity gone mad?

You are now not allowed to state your belief?

I can understand that some in A&A might rejoice but surely many can see the deeper ramifications: that at another time and place, their own expression of belief might not be of the moment and be condemned for mere expression.

Thin end of a thick wedge, this one.

Saying that gay people deserve to be tortured for being gay is a bad thing.

It would be just as offensive if he said that gay people deserve to be stoned/beaten up/excluded from jobs etc.
It would be just as offensive if he said that other races deserve the same thing.

You're allowed to state your belief, but you can't really whine that people don't like you when your belief is a bit awful and hurtful.
Maybe he shouldn't hold a terrible belief like "gays deserve to be tortured" when there's no basis for it in the first place.

Varta · 13-04-2019 1:00am

Why isn't he losing his job for saying that adulterers will go to Hell?

DesperateDan · 13-04-2019 1:33am

I wonder if some chap didn't happen to jot down how sinful it was to be gay 2k years ago, if we would still find a way to demonize it

antiskeptic · 13-04-2019 9:51am

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'm genuinely not sure if you're trying to undermine your own point?

The point asks whether we are to live merely by the mood of the time. What's right is what's right now.

Or whether there are some fundamentals that ought not vary over time (like freedom of expression)

That the gay in 1953 wasn't free then but is now isn't the point. The point is whether there ought be freedom at all times to express.

salmocab · 13-04-2019 9:58am

He’s losing his job because he publicly expressed his private views, as a top international rugby player he is part of Australian rugby’s image which he has a duty to keep. Sponsors won’t be happy with what he says as they don’t want to have links to such a person. He is perfectly entitled to his own beliefs but when he publicly makes ridiculous statements that affect his employer then they are entitled to do something about it.

Cordell · 13-04-2019 10:02am

I think him being punished instead of a well deserved ridicule will just turn him into some sort of martyr and actually reinforce these views for the people that have them. He is an idiot and needs to be called out as such, not shut down.

salmocab · 13-04-2019 10:03am

Cordell wrote: »

I think him being punished instead of a well deserved ridicule will just turn him into some sort of martyr and actually reinforce these views for the people that have them. He is an idiot and needs to be called out as such, not shut down.

He’s been called out in the rugby community by quite a few top players in fairness. He has form for this and on top of his nonsense beliefs he’s a dick.

dudara · 13-04-2019 10:05am

Tell me why you are saying it is nonsense to call out someone who demonises LGBT people?

salmocab · 13-04-2019 10:08am

dudara wrote: »

Tell me why you are saying it is nonsense to call out someone who demonises LGBT people?

Not quite sure who your asking that of?

is_that_so · 13-04-2019 10:09am

Cordell wrote: »

I think him being punished instead of a well deserved ridicule will just turn him into some sort of martyr and actually reinforce these views for the people that have them. He is an idiot and needs to be called out as such, not shut down.

He is a public figure and has a contract with the national team. How you are expected to behave implicit in such contracts. Should have kept it to himself or expressed it privately. The boy's got form here too.

dudara · 13-04-2019 10:11am

salmocab wrote: »

Not quite sure who your asking that of?

The OP

Tell me how · 13-04-2019 10:12am

If ever the first 4 words of the opening post of a thread showed the mindset of those who spend their time giving out about how things like being decent to others is a sign that society is falling apart then those at the start of this thread nailed it.

Cabaal · 13-04-2019 10:25am

If he said that all black people should burn in hell we simply would not be having this discussion.

What he said towards gay people is no different.

He can express his views, but his employer doesn't have to employ him when he breaches the contrat he signed with them. Its very simple.

People should see these types of views for what they are, hateful. They should not be supported, we live in a better society then that.

Marengo · 13-04-2019 10:29am

Izzy Folau.. what a sight in full flight or claiming a high ball on a rugby field. A bit like racehorse Secretariat, described as 'God's Perfect Creature'.

Entitled to his beliefs, absolutely. However as a Christian I find his beliefs very anti Christian. No one can judge another or post or speak comments like that. That's hate not love, not the Christian or Humanitarian attitude. P.s. You don't need religion to be a decent human being.

Much and all as I love him as a rugby player he's been given several chances.

AllForIt · 13-04-2019 10:47am

The ppl who are creating the nonsense are the ppl who say that gays are immoral and will burn in hell.

Varta · 13-04-2019 10:54am

He is using rugby to voice his religious beliefs. This is wrong. It's also wrong when footballers pray on the pitch before the start of a game, deliberately bringing their religion into a stadium packed with people. They should be told to do it in private. People who are religious are delusional. People who hold extreme religious beliefs are mentally ill. If I were gay I wouldn't be too bothered by what a person who believes in Hell or Heaven has to say about me. They are really saying much more about themselves.

smacl · 13-04-2019 10:58am

antiskeptic wrote: »

I can understand that some in A&A might rejoice but surely many can see the deeper ramifications: that at another time and place, their own expression of belief might not be of the moment and be condemned for mere expression.

Atheists are on his shít list too though this has very little to do with the A&A forum. I'd imagine if you posted the same thing on the Christianity forum, you'd get pretty much the same reaction you're seeing here. Homophobia is generally considered hateful and not acceptable to anyone in our society.

Varta · 13-04-2019 11:05am

If you accept religion then you must also accept religious beliefs.

Anteayer · 13-04-2019 11:11am

I'm getting seriously fed up with this kind of attempt to paint the LGBT+ community as whining.

In Ireland yes, for the last few years (after decades and centuries of oppression) things are finally good. However, that didn't happen by accident and there was a long struggle to get to this point and there are still issues with homophobic nonsense, but thankfully mostly on the minor scale of things.

There are still major issues with homophobia elsewhere in the world and it can range from just bullying, to being unable to obtain employment or access public services, to being forced to remain hidden away or to have to deal with politics (including in the US and parts of the EU) that's trying to strip rights away.

At the extreme end there are still countries around the world where being gay is illegal and punishable by lengthy prison sentences or even death.
There are still people advocating stoning gay people and throwing them off buildings.

In sport there's still also a huge issue with homophobia. It's improving but look at how difficult it has been for people to come out. It's still big news in many sports when a prominent player is gay.

All of this stuff has to be tackled and religious excuses for homophobia are no better than religious excuses for racism.

How would you like it if you'd people going around telling you you'd burn in hell or that you were evil?

This kind of thing causes depression, social isolation and even suicides.

I'm really starting to get more than a bit annoyed with these attempts to normalise homophobia and remove people's right to be angry about it.

Try walking in someone else's shoes for a while OP and seeing the world from another perspective for a while.

Swap the word gay in that list for an ethnic group or religious group and he'd be getting his P45 but clearly those kinds of statements about gay people are still up for debate, which says everything really.

Also try swapping the word atheist for a religious group and you'd get a similarly swift response, which illustrates how little protection atheists actually have. Also a group who are subject to serious problems in very religious countries and communities.

Marengo · 13-04-2019 11:51am

Varta wrote: »

He is using rugby to voice his religious beliefs. This is wrong. It's also wrong when footballers pray on the pitch before the start of a game, deliberately bringing their religion into a stadium packed with people. They should be told to do it in private. People who are religious are delusional. People who hold extreme religious beliefs are mentally ill. If I were gay I wouldn't be too bothered by what a person who believes in Hell or Heaven has to say about me. They are really saying much more about themselves.

Ok here's just a quick list of Christian scientists, not exclusive. http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/sciencefaith.html Look at the division among modern scientists. https://owlcation.com/humanities/10-Brilliant-Scientists-and-Their-View-of-God
These great minds were delusional but you, like myself, pretty much a non entity in terms of the intellect of these people, can make a sweeping statement like that.

In your own way you're just as insulting of a large cohort of society as those who preach hatred of gay people, black people etc. So much intolerance from those who purport to be tolerant.

splinter65 · 13-04-2019 11:53am

DesperateDan wrote: »

I wonder if some chap didn't happen to jot down how sinful it was to be gay 2k years ago, if we would still find a way to demonize it

Which chap jotted down what where now? No, we have yet to reach peak LGBTQ nonsense. There’s a long way to go.

Guy:Incognito · 13-04-2019 11:57am

Varta wrote: »

Why isn't he losing his job for saying that adulterers will go to Hell?

It's not the same thing.
You can choose not to be an adulterer....

Would it be ok to say black people are wrong and should burn in hell for daring to be black?

(EDIT , beaten to it)

This is yet more proof that religion is stupid and unecessary. All it does it drive wedges between groups, cause hate and none of the good they do couldnt be done be community groups or other types just coming together.

BarryD2 · 13-04-2019 11:59am

Speaking in generalities, there's always been people ready & willing to be offended. Most take no notice, what's the point, life's too short etc. It's just that the voices of the former are amplified these days.

Guy:Incognito · 13-04-2019 12:04pm

Varta wrote: »

If I were gay I wouldn't be too bothered by what a person who believes in Hell or Heaven has to say about me. They are really saying much more about themselves.

Thats grand as long as it never affects you. What happens when some fundamentalist nutjob takes this type of attitude as justification to go on a shoot up in a gay club or runs a car in to the queue of people waiting to get in?

It's this kind of crap from respected members that make Muslim fundamentalists carry out attacks on Christians or vice versa and make white supremacists decide to kill a few black people.

NIMAN · 13-04-2019 12:04pm

He is entitled to hold his opinion, we all are.

Whether you decide you want to tell the world about it is another matter.

He was warned last year (to the day) when he tweeted something similar.
So he went against this warning and did the same thing again, bringing his club and possibly his sport into disrepute.

He has to take the consequences of his actions. He is now likely to get sacked by his club, his country won't pick him for the upcoming World Cup and he might never get another team to employ him, so his career could be over. Unlikely to be employed as a TV analyst either.

So of course he will stand by his comments, but they were very costly for him.

Anteayer · 13-04-2019 12:06pm

I don't honestly think LGBT people are actively seeking to be offended by a highly prominent sports person putting out a statement like that. That's really taking victim blaming to the extreme and is a ridiculous comment.

Sometimes you have to be offended by things like this and challenge them or it becomes a slippery slope towards normalisation.

You're talking about a % of the population who still extremely marginalised in many societies and have only barely stepped out of the closet in many western societies, including this one.

Those rights were very, very hard won and shouldn't ever be taken for granted.

There's this endless narrative coming from right wing types that anyone offended by anything is a "snowflake" or is whining. It's a rather blatant attempt to just get people to shut up.

Guy:Incognito · 13-04-2019 12:13pm

Anteayer wrote: »

I don't honestly think LGBT people are actively seeking to be offended by a highly prominent sports person putting out a statement like that. That's really taking victim blaming to the extreme and is a ridiculous comment.
.

Pretty much all of the people on my twitter feed (amongst people I actually know) that were condemning Folau and supporting the consequences and famous people condemning him are straight people. In fact , off hand I dont remember seeing any posts from gay people I know.

Anteayer · 13-04-2019 12:15pm

You carried out a full survey of every tweeter's sexual orientation. That's impressive - what mind reading technologies did you use?

There were plenty of gay people who were responding to that.

This response by Nick Heath a rugby commentator who happens to be gay was particularly well put:

https://twitter.com/nickheathsport/status/1116689212210909184?s=21

Guy:Incognito · 13-04-2019 12:18pm

Anteayer wrote: »

You carried out a full survey of every tweeter's sexual orientation. That's impressive - what mind reading technologies did you use?

You dived right in there , didnt you? Didnt even wait long enough to read the first sentence properly. Pay particular attention to the bit in brackets.

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Pretty much all of the people on my twitter feed (amongst people I actually know)

Last sentence is fairly clear too. Did you just pick out a few random words or what?

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

In fact , off hand I dont remember seeing any posts from gay people I know.

Anteayer · 13-04-2019 12:22pm

No but I'm absolutely fed up to the back teeth or this kind of defending the indefensible with whataboutery.

Why in 2019 am I on an Irish forum arguing that it's unacceptable to condemn gay people like this.

How would you like it if someone condemned some specific aspect of your person: gender, where you were born, your skin colour, your eye colour.

Then you come onto a forum like this and other wise reasonable people are having academic chats about whether this is acceptable or not.

It's really infuriating and yes I did jump right in to the rather large hole you dug for yourself.

Forget it! I'm off for lunch rather than wasting my time debating nonsense like this.

This isn't some abstract and academic debate to me. It's about me and people like me.

Guy:Incognito · 13-04-2019 12:27pm

Anteayer wrote: »

It's really infuriating and yes I did jump right in to the rather large hole you dug for yourself.

what hole did I dig? You said you dont think LGBTQ people are actively seeking to be offended and I made the point that of the people I know, its mostly straight people that are condemning him. As in, its good to see that most right thinking people are willing to call him out .

Not sure where you got the impression I was defending anything. Maybe calm down a touch and read through stuff a bit.

It would be a fairly abrupt about turn from my first couple of posts in the thread to the 2nd couple if I'd just decided "you know what, Folau is actually right"

Varta · 13-04-2019 12:33pm

Marengo wrote: »

Ok here's just a quick list of Christian scientists, not exclusive. http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/sciencefaith.html Look at the division among modern scientists. https://owlcation.com/humanities/10-Brilliant-Scientists-and-Their-View-of-God
These great minds were delusional but you, like myself, pretty much a non entity in terms of the intellect of these people, can make a sweeping statement like that.

In your own way you're just as insulting of a large cohort of society as those who preach hatred of gay people, black people etc. So much intolerance from those who purport to be tolerant.

You know nothing of my intellect. Are you seriously trying to equate science with religion? All religion is superstitious nonsense. All religion preaches hate. Most religions try to mask that hate, but it is always there.

Varta · 13-04-2019 12:35pm

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

It's not the same thing.
You can choose not to be an adulterer....

Would it be ok to say black people are wrong and should burn in hell for daring to be black?

(EDIT , beaten to it)

This is yet more proof that religion is stupid and unecessary. All it does it drive wedges between groups, cause hate and none of the good they do couldnt be done be community groups or other types just coming together.

I was making the point that if you tolerate religion then you must also tolerate its beliefs. I agree with your views on religion.

Varta · 13-04-2019 12:37pm

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Thats grand as long as it never affects you. What happens when some fundamentalist nutjob takes this type of attitude as justification to go on a shoot up in a gay club or runs a car in to the queue of people waiting to get in?

It's this kind of crap from respected members that make Muslim fundamentalists carry out attacks on Christians or vice versa and make white supremacists decide to kill a few black people.

Those nut jobs don't just target gay people though. It is surely better to condemn them for all of their hate rather than focussing on one element. United against religious hate.

splinter65 · 13-04-2019 12:37pm

Varta wrote: »

You know nothing of my intellect. Are you seriously trying to equate science with religion? All religion is superstitious nonsense. All religion preaches hate. Most religions try to mask that hate, but it is always there.

But you can’t ignore the fact that many many scientists are religious, just because it doesn’t suit you. You can’t ignore facts.

Tell me how · 13-04-2019 12:39pm

Varta wrote: »

You know nothing of my intellect. Are you seriously trying to equate science with religion? All religion is superstitious nonsense. All religion preaches hate. Most religions try to mask that hate, but it is always there.

That's because the hate is in the human. As emanates from your own post.

Religion in it's purest form is not about hate. But the individuals who participate in it (any of them) are as susceptible to be evil thinking or evil acting as those in any branch of society. But, because, in many instances their religious beliefs are seen as the most unique or identifiable thing about them and so their evil acts are attributed to the religion more so than the individual.

Anteayer · 13-04-2019 12:42pm

What's annoying me is this is a thread is opening a debate about gay rights, largely by people who seem to see it as some kind of abstract topic, as it doesn't impact them.

When it impacts you personally, it's a very different discussion and it's extremely frustrating to see this rugby player's statement being defended.

If it were a discussion about race, I would think the tone would be very different and someone being LGBT is not a matter of personal choice or opinion. It's fundamentally about who they are. It's also potentially also very isolating, as they don't automatically have community.

So all I'm saying is be careful when you post. This is a real world issue for plenty of people potentially reading this thread.

Tell me how · 13-04-2019 12:50pm

Anteayer wrote: »

What's annoying me is this is a thread is opening a debate about gay rights, largely by people who seem to see it as some kind of abstract topic, as it doesn't impact them.

When it impacts you personally, it's a very different discussion and it's extremely frustrating to see this rugby player's statement being defended.

If it were a discussion about race, I would think the tone would be very different and someone being LGBT is not a matter of personal choice or opinion. It's fundamentally about who they are. It's also potentially also very isolating, as they don't automatically have community.

So all I'm saying is be careful when you post. This is a real world issue for plenty of people potentially reading this thread.

Most of the people posting on this thread are castigating both Folau and the OP, readers who have such real world issues should focus on those messages of support.

Varta · 13-04-2019 1:00pm

splinter65 wrote: »

But you can’t ignore the fact that many many scientists are religious, just because it doesn’t suit you. You can’t ignore facts.

Scientists, like anyone else are prone to the superstition of religion. None of them have been able to use science to prove the existence of a god.

Varta · 13-04-2019 1:02pm

Tell me how wrote: »

That's because the hate is in the human. As emanates from your own post.

Religion in it's purest form is not about hate. But the individuals who participate in it (any of them) are as susceptible to be evil thinking or evil acting as those in any branch of society. But, because, in many instances their religious beliefs are seen as the most unique or identifiable thing about them and so their evil acts are attributed to the religion more so than the individual.

No. The hate is in the religion. Religion is and always was a cut-throat business.

Pherekydes · 13-04-2019 1:40pm

Marengo wrote: »

Ok here's just a quick list of Christian scientists, not exclusive. http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/sciencefaith.html Look at the division among modern scientists. https://owlcation.com/humanities/10-Brilliant-Scientists-and-Their-View-of-God
These great minds were delusional but you, like myself, pretty much a non entity in terms of the intellect of these people, can make a sweeping statement like that.

These lists often get wheeled out from time to time.

This begs the question: what would these people believe if they were alive today, with access to all the information that we have access to?

antiskeptic · 13-04-2019 2:23pm

King Mob wrote: »

Saying that gay people deserve to be tortured for being gay is a bad thing.

That would depend on

a) whether you believed or not that it was a bad thing

b) whether believing it was a bad thing you did or didn't believe that a place exists for the torture to take place.

It would be slightly ridiculous to be offended by someone saying that gays shouldn't be visited by Santa

You're allowed to state your belief, but you can't really whine that people don't like you when your belief is a bit awful and hurtful.

So you don't suppose that gays in the 50's had much to complain about?

Maybe he shouldn't hold a terrible belief like "gays deserve to be tortured" when there's no basis for it in the first place.

So, holding a belief first has to pass a basis-for-the-belief test before being even considered whether it is to be expressed or not.

And just who wouldl this basis-police be? Science? Rationalism? Empiricism?

Have we reach peak LGBT nonsense?

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