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Assisted Suicide

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    #62
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,458 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Supreme Court has ruled that there is nothing stopping the Oireachtas legislating in this regard.

    Apart from extreme cowardice, of course.
    which issue was it that ahern put to a referendum, even though one wasn't needed?


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    #63
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,014 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    If you mean the 2002 abortion referendum, similarly to the one also rejected in 1992, it was trying to get out of having to legislate for the X case by removing the ground of suicide conferring a right to abortion.

    Of course they did legislate for it in the end, only 21 years after the X case.

    Strictly speaking, nothing needs to go to an amendment. Every proposed constitutional amendment is a decision of the government of the day to put forward.

    There is no future for Boards as long as it stays on the complete toss that is the Vanilla "platform", we've given those Canadian twats far more chances than they deserve.



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    #64
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Given we know no party will have the guys to touch this topic and support legislation the citizen assembly is the best outcome we can hope for,
    They propose it, they suggest the ghist of the legislation and we vote on it.


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    #65
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,014 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    It's the standard approach now to obtain plausible deniability in relation to any controversial issue.

    I hate that politicians are so f**king spineless to require it, but OTOH if it'd just been left up to the Dail we probably would only have got some half-arsed amendment to the 8th instead of repeal, and very restrictive legislation, dozens of them were crapping themselves over POLDPA only a few years ago even though it didn't widen the legal grounds for abortion one whit.

    There is no future for Boards as long as it stays on the complete toss that is the Vanilla "platform", we've given those Canadian twats far more chances than they deserve.



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    #66
    Liv Witty Teacher
    Posts: 0 ✭ Liv Witty Teacher


    Assisted suicide is not, as mentioned, unconstitutional, which is a pity because a referendum would be far more robust than whatever the Oireachtas would ever legislate on.


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    #67
    A_Lost_Man
    Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭A_Lost_Man


    assisted or not suicide should be made legal. It is a good way to stop overpopulation. Like on internet forams people may delete their profile as per their own wish. If a person is unwilling to live in this world. he should be allowed to suicide and anyone who assist him in his work should be appreciated.


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    #68
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    A_Lost_Man wrote: »
    assisted or not suicide should be made legal. It is a good way to stop overpopulation. Like on internet forams people may delete their profile as per their own wish. If a person is unwilling to live in this world. he should be allowed to suicide and anyone who assist him in his work should be appreciated.

    To clarify:
    Suicide is not illegal.
    What is being discussed here is people with terminal illness and/or severely life limiting conditions who can no longer physically take the necessary steps to ensure they die at a time and place of their own choosing can be helped.

    Mod Hat on:
    Comments like "assisted or not suicide should be made legal. It is a good way to stop overpopulation." are ill considered, a tad tasteless, and verging on inflammatory. Suicide is a sensitive topic which has brought tragedy to many people's lives. I will give you the benefit of the doubt but urge you to please think carefully before posting.


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    #69
    A_Lost_Man
    Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭A_Lost_Man


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    To clarify:
    Suicide is not illegal.
    What is being discussed here is people with terminal illness and/or severely life limiting conditions who can no longer physically take the necessary steps to ensure they die at a time and place of their own choosing can be helped.

    Thanks for making me understand. It is would be great to release such people from pain and let them die in peace. Actually there are a lot of cases around us when a person is in very much pain and willing to die and his loved one actually in the name of fake love torture him . This is called superficial love


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    #70
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,014 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    A_Lost_Man wrote: »
    Actually there are a lot of cases around us when a person is in very much pain and willing to die and his loved one actually in the name of fake love torture him . This is called superficial love

    What?!?

    There is no future for Boards as long as it stays on the complete toss that is the Vanilla "platform", we've given those Canadian twats far more chances than they deserve.



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    #71
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,338 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    I think as a stab in the dark what the user is saying, though badly worded, is that if you really love the person in pain who wants to die you would let them.

    But many might be unwilling to let them go because of their own love and greif and loss. And the user above feels this is not real love because your unwillingness to let them go, and therefore to torture them, is more about you loving yourself and your concern for yourself than for them.


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    #72
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,014 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Jeez.

    I couldn't watch a loved one suffer knowing that I hadn't done everything I could for them.

    There is no future for Boards as long as it stays on the complete toss that is the Vanilla "platform", we've given those Canadian twats far more chances than they deserve.



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    #73
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,719 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Jeez.

    I couldn't watch a loved one suffer knowing that I hadn't done everything I could for them.

    Very much the same. I tend to think of it in terms of probaility of respite and probability of some level of future happiness. Where either of these are greater than negligible, I'd push / encourage / lend what strength I could for the person to fight through to the bitter end. Myself and my wife have had a few friends with cancer in recent years and one thing that became apparent is that under those levels and stress and fatigue is not the easiest place to be making decisions.


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    #74
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,338 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Agreed here too, and I might be doing the user above a disservice by misrepresenting him. But that APPEARS to be what his point was meant to be.

    Micheal Nugent is very moving on this subject. He spoke about how he and his wife had agreed that when the time came he would do anything in his power to help her die peacefully and in the way she wanted. Regardless of any legal repercussions that might ensue after the fact to his own freedoms. That sounds like true love to me.


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    #75
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    Agreed here too, and I might be doing the user above a disservice by misrepresenting him. But that APPEARS to be what his point was meant to be.

    Micheal Nugent is very moving on this subject. He spoke about how he and his wife had agreed that when the time came he would do anything in his power to help her die peacefully and in the way she wanted. Regardless of any legal repercussions that might ensue after the fact to his own freedoms. That sounds like true love to me.

    Sounds like it alright. Along the lines of 'no greater love than that he lay down his life for his friend'

    However. Thou shalt not kill.

    I read Cormac McCarthy's The Road recently (spoiler alert). Although the dad had set plans to kill his son in the event he could not prevent his son being left to cannibals, at the end he couldn't do it. After the dad dies, the son is picked up and taken in by another 'good guy' group and presumably lives on.

    The point was that by doing the seemingly right thing and killing his son, the dad would have stolen from his son, the opportunity for life to give to his son.

    The process of dying, however unpleasant, is still a part of life and life, so long as it is being lived, provides opportunity.

    The opportunity during a dying, painful illness might not have obvious utility. But no one knows nor can they know what opportunity is to be obtained by letting life run its course.

    The seeming loving act is, when stripped back, an act of god. Michael would be playing god. Taking it upon himself to decide there is no opportunity left, whilst there might well be.

    He would be operating within ignorance, elevating himself to a place no amount of worldview can elevate him to.


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    #76
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,014 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Preaching is not discussion.

    There is no future for Boards as long as it stays on the complete toss that is the Vanilla "platform", we've given those Canadian twats far more chances than they deserve.



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    #77
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,338 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    However. Thou shalt not kill.

    First that is a religious precept and hence not applicable to our laws. Or at least it should not be.

    Second it is a misinterpretation of the religious mandate. The text does not admonish us not to kill, but not to murder. And the text is clear too on when it absolutely condoned and advocated killing.
    antiskeptic wrote: »
    The process of dying, however unpleasant, is still a part of life and life, so long as it is being lived, provides opportunity.

    Irrelevant. Opportunity is not obligatory. Whether life provides opportunity or not, the person who's life it is should be under no obligation to realise it or pander to it. It is THEIR choice as to whether they wish to explore or avail of the opportunity, or the opportunity for opportunity. Not ours. And certainly not yours.

    There is a reason suicide, rather than assisted suicide, is not illegal anymore.
    antiskeptic wrote: »
    Michael would be playing god.

    Nope. People like that are not playing the role of a god. Because gods in their fairy tales tend not to seek the permission or consent of the people they affect or control or kill.

    People like this are acting with the CONSENT and REQUEST of the people they are assisting. There is a reason it is called ASSISTED suicide.


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    #78
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    The process of dying, however unpleasant, is still a part of life and life, so long as it is being lived, provides opportunity.

    The opportunity during a dying, painful illness might not have obvious utility. But no one knows nor can they know what opportunity is to be obtained by letting life run its course.

    The seeming loving act is, when stripped back, an act of god. Michael would be playing god. Taking it upon himself to decide there is no opportunity left, whilst there might well be.

    He would be operating within ignorance, elevating himself to a place no amount of worldview can elevate him to.

    By that argument you must be equally against all forms of medicine and medicinal treatment, as treating a wound or cancer is equally playing god.


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    #79
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    By that argument you must be equally against all forms of medicine and medicinal treatment, as treating a wound or cancer is equally playing god.
    When, back in the 18th and 19th centuries, statistics were first applied to human populations to determine things like disease rates, survival rates and so on, religious figures objected, saying that the statisticians were "playing god".


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    #80
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,719 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    robindch wrote: »
    When, back in the 18th and 19th centuries, statistics were first applied to human populations to determine things like disease rates, survival rates and so on, religious figures objected, saying that the statisticians were "playing god".

    You can understand their concern, peddling lies and damned lies condoned by the state was clearly an intrusion on their turf.


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    #81
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,014 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    A long but excellent read.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/other-sports/marieke-vervoort-the-paralympic-champion-who-chose-her-time-to-die-1.4115956

    Paywalled but should work in incognito mode.

    In very short, she developed extremely painful muscle weakness in her legs in her teens, wheelchair by 20, sought permission for doctor assisted suicide at 29, then went on to win Paralypic medals including gold in 2012. Her condition continued to deteriorate and her pain increased, she held a party for her family and friends three days before the date she'd arranged to carry out her decision to end her life in October 2019 at the age of 40.

    A very brave woman in the way she lived and in the way she died.

    Our politicians are still running scared of this issue but it is certainly not going to go away.

    Marieke Vervoort - Wikipedia

    There is no future for Boards as long as it stays on the complete toss that is the Vanilla "platform", we've given those Canadian twats far more chances than they deserve.



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