Undergroundd Passages

GypsyByName · 11-11-2017 12:27pm #1

Morning,

Just in work here and having a discussion about Dublin and the Luas. Ive been told either correctly or incorrectly that there are underground passages connecting Dublin's jails...Kilmainham, Arbour Hill and Mountjoy.

Can anyone enlighten me?

Peregrinus · 14-11-2017 3:28am

Very unlikely to be true. The jails are quite a distance apart and are separated by the river, and Dublin's geology is not tunelling-friendly. The project would be enormously expensive, and what purpose would it serve? It's not as though there's a huge amount of traffic between the three jails.

tabbey · 14-11-2017 10:17am

GypsyByName wrote: »

Morning,

Just in work here and having a discussion about Dublin and the Luas. Ive been told either correctly or incorrectly that there are underground passages connecting Dublin's jails...Kilmainham, Arbour Hill and Mountjoy.

Can anyone enlighten me?

This sort of fairy tale is extraordinarily common in Ireland, perhaps elsewhere also.

Someone starts with a suggestion about a tunnel or something else. The next person claims it as gospel, then successive yarn tellers extend the tunnel in length and numbers.

This year, on a walking tour during Heritage Week, a guide told the crowd, that there was a tunnel from the spot we were standing on, or nearby, tothe nearby village. When I heard this, I thought "Motherof J....

You mention LUAS.
There are coalholes etc which extend under the footpath of many city streets. With street widening over the centuries, some of these found themselves under the street carriageway. When services such as water pipes and sewers etc had to be moved for tramway construction, contractors found themselves digging into these coal holes or cellars.

whisky_galore · 14-11-2017 11:32am

Perhaps one of the more ridiculous urban legends that did the rounds was the underground station inside the Phoenix Park tunnel with a connecting underground passage surfacing at the Magazine Fort no less.

Dial Hard · 14-11-2017 11:37am

There are plenty of tunnels under Dublin, though. RTE did a programme on it a good few years back. IIRC you could walk from part of the Dodder to the Liffey underground at that stage. Not sure if that's still the case, what with Luas, water and drainage works over the years.

pedroeibar1 · 14-11-2017 2:59pm

Dial Hard wrote: »

There are plenty of tunnels under Dublin, though. RTE did a programme on it a good few years back. IIRC you could walk from part of the Dodder to the Liffey underground at that stage. Not sure if that's still the case, what with Luas, water and drainage works over the years.

I think you might be confusing the underground Poddle with the Dodder? Several streams have been piped underground, (e.g. the one in Glenageary that runs out to the sea at Newtownsmith), but they are not true tunnels.
There are some very short 'historic' tunnels in Dublin but most are in the suburbs. Guinness has one at Thomas street connecting the sites on both sides of the street. One of the half a dozen or so tunnels at the Casino in Marion is about a mile long, there is another in Blackrock from the site of Lord Ed. Fitzgerald's family home, Frascati House (now a shopping centre) that runs down to the sea at Blackrock Park. There also is one in Dalkey that is an old mine - a myth has grown to the effect that it runs out to Dalkey Island!

Jellybaby1 · 15-11-2017 1:46am

Don't forget the 19th century railway tunnel under the Phoenix Park. I grew up a stone's throw from the park and I never ever heard of it before.

Esel · 15-11-2017 1:01pm

There is a tunnel from the cells in the Bridewell Garda Station to the Four Courts.

BarryD2 · 15-11-2017 1:06pm

tabbey wrote: »

This sort of fairy tale is extraordinarily common in Ireland, perhaps elsewhere also.

+1 Just look at the folklore in the 1938 Schools Collection. Tunnels galore supposedly connecting castles and others linking raths and so on.

Best place to find 'tunnels' is Co.Clare - plenty of active caves there and systems to explore

whisky_galore · 15-11-2017 1:21pm

BarryD2 wrote: »

+1 Just look at the folklore in the 1938 Schools Collection. Tunnels galore supposedly connecting castles and others linking raths and so on.

Best place to find 'tunnels' is Co.Clare - plenty of active caves there and systems to explore

It's forklore, not all historical facts, more like half-remembered yarns for telling around the fireside.

Have a copy of one local history book, written in the 1930's, there's more 'little people' than Darby O'Gill.

Dial Hard · 15-11-2017 5:15pm

pedroeibar1 wrote:

I think you might be confusing the underground Poddle with the Dodder?

I had originally put it down as the Poddle as that's what I remembered, but as it's a tributary of the Dodder and this tunnel in particular definitely came out at the Liffey, I changed it to the Dodder. It's very possible that I'm conflating two different parts of the programme, though; it was easily ten years ago that I watched it.

Esel · 15-11-2017 7:31pm

The Poddle runs under Dublin Castle and enters the Liffey near Capel St. Bridge.

tabbey · 16-11-2017 12:36am

Dial Hard wrote: »

I had originally put it down as the Poddle as that's what I remembered, but as it's a tributary of the Dodder and this tunnel in particular definitely came out at the Liffey, I changed it to the Dodder. It's very possible that I'm conflating two different parts of the programme, though; it was easily ten years ago that I watched it.

The Poddle drains land below the level of the Dodder, although it rises very close to the Dodder.

As for a tunnel from the Dodder to the Liffey, it is not needed as the Dodder drains into the Liffey estuary, just below the Grand Canal Docks, facing the Point Store (O2 / Three or whatever that venue is now called.

Perhaps the most interesting tunnel under the Liffey, is near there. It only carries such as electricity cables and perhaps sewers. It had been intended to allow pedestrians also, but it is now pressurised and restricted to select staff, as the City Council did not want the public suffering the "bends".

You can read about this and other fascinating unknown projects, in "Our Good Health" written by Michael Corcoran and published by the City Council.

Peregrinus · 16-11-2017 5:13am

Dial Hard wrote: »

I had originally put it down as the Poddle as that's what I remembered, but as it's a tributary of the Dodder and this tunnel in particular definitely came out at the Liffey, I changed it to the Dodder. It's very possible that I'm conflating two different parts of the programme, though; it was easily ten years ago that I watched it.

The Poddle is a tributary of the Liffey, not of the Dodder. The Poddle's inflow to the Liffey is at Wellington Quay and, except when the tides is very high, you can see it easily from the opposite bank, on Ormond Quay.

The Poddle is culverted for its final stretch, but it's a large, high culvert which is at least in principle walkable. You can't walk it because there's a stout grating across the entrance to the culvert at Wellington Quay. I have read that this was installed in British days a security measure, because the culvert passes under Dublin Castle, but in fact it makes perfect sense as just a safety measure; the culvert is completely filled at high tide, and nasty accidents could happen if people went exploring.

Victor · 16-11-2017 5:55am

There is a tunnel that is under both the Liffey and Dodder here: http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/441392263#map=18/53.34581/-6.22908 Details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liffey_Service_Tunnel l[/url]

Peregrinus wrote: »

The Poddle is a tributary of the Liffey, not of the Dodder.

Yes, the Poddle is a tributary of the Liffey, it is or at least was in part a distributary of the Dodder. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Poddle#Water_supply

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

There also is one in Dalkey that is an old mine - a myth has grown to the effect that it runs out to Dalkey Island!

Conflating of two stories:

http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,726821,727042,12,9
http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,726358,725695,12,9

pinkypinky · 16-11-2017 11:02am

Trinity has several tunnels connecting libraries and under Front Square. Very handy when it's raining and you're a lazy student, but they don't let students in all of them.

pedroeibar1 · 16-11-2017 12:58pm

Victor wrote: »

Conflating of two stories:

http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,726821,727042,12,9
http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,726358,725695,12,9

No conflation,:) the cave by Whiterock always was believed locally to be just a cave, not a tunnel. It was called Deco’s cave after Deco, a WW1 survivor who lived in it for years. There is another near the men’s bathing place about 40 feet above HWL. We had much debate as students as to which one was used as a model by Myles na Gcopaleen on his writings.

The tunnel at Dalkey Sound is I think connected with the early 1800's Dalkey gold rush, led by a young local girl named Etty Scott, who had a vision that there was gold buried on Dalkey Commons. No gold was discovered, but her followers had obtained title to what was called ‘the Long Rock’ and they eventually sold it for considerable cash – it is the stretch from Loreto to the harbour, on which Inishcorrig and Lota are built. A tiny site that sold nearby last year went for more than a million euro, proving that there is still gold in Dalkey!

davycc · 17-11-2017 7:17pm

Esel wrote: »

The Poddle runs under Dublin Castle and enters the Liffey near Capel St. Bridge.

https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/cities-of-the-underworld/

I remember the American host Don needs subtitles to understand a Dublin city council guy who took him under the Dublin castle as far as the liffey.
Op you might get it on YouTube worth a look an eye opening series

harry Bailey esq · 17-11-2017 7:46pm

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

Don't forget the 19th century railway tunnel under the Phoenix Park. I grew up a stone's throw from the park and I never ever heard of it before.

Back in use, I was at the 40 bus stop today at binns bridge and seen two trains coming from opposite directions. One tunnel I remember is in the grounds of powerscourt, a few hundred metres long. It starts in the middle of nowhere, and ended in the middle of nowhere, could never see the point of it. Really claustrophobic, as an 8 year old cub scout I went through it a few times, and had to stoop me head, and as an 8 year old I was the shortarse amongst my peers. Anybody got any background on that one? It's obviously there for a reason, I can't imagine it's just a folly.

davycc · 17-11-2017 7:52pm

Don Wildman even goes under st Patrick's cathedral and meets mummified giants under the crypts in the same episode he does his tour of the walled in river poddle under Dublin castle.
It became a open sewer in medieval times.

Season two episode four ?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PL4o05-B3rRMjbQkKdrFOQeNCHOT_hasjl&v=PQ-NCPozFrI

Victor · 17-11-2017 9:07pm

harry Bailey esq wrote: »

One tunnel I remember is in the grounds of powerscourt, a few hundred metres long. It starts in the middle of nowhere, and ended in the middle of nowhere, could never see the point of it. Really claustrophobic, as an 8 year old cub scout I went through it a few times, and had to stoop me head, and as an 8 year old I was the shortarse amongst my peers. Anybody got any background on that one?

Possibly a drain - as are many of the 'tunnels' that people see.

Joeseph Balls · 17-11-2017 9:13pm

I spent my summer's as a young 'culchie' (or muckarse as i was known on the estate) in Dublin, i remember the older kids heading into the city to visit the tunnels. They paid an ould woman 20p or something small and she used to let them in through the basement. I can't recall what area and will have to ask but maybe someone here knows or heard of that tale.
Kids at the time so tunnels could have been the coal bunkers or service hatches. This was only 20 years ago or so

tabbey · 18-11-2017 12:42pm

Esel wrote: »

The Poddle runs under Dublin Castle and enters the Liffey near Capel St. Bridge.

Strictly speaking, the Poddle forms the southern and eastern boundaries of the original castle, but the river has been culverted and runs under the tarmac.
Incidentally the original black pool (Dubh Linn = Dublin) is now the garden between the Garda museum and Chester Beatty library.

Mantis Toboggan · 18-11-2017 12:44pm

Apparantly there's a tunnel from the rock of Cashel to Holycross Abbey.

tabbey · 18-11-2017 12:45pm

Victor wrote: »

Possibly a drain - as are many of the 'tunnels' that people see.

Or possibly a tunnel the servants would use without spoiling the view for the gentry. Another version of this is an open cuttinh known as a "Ha-ha"

Victor · 18-11-2017 4:00pm

Tyson Fury wrote: »

Apparantly there's a tunnel from the rock of Cashel to Holycross Abbey.

For a distance of 15km? https://www.google.ie/maps/dir/Cashel/Holycross+Abbey/@52.5775573,-7.941406,12z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x485ccbe80c23e567:0xa00c7a99731e9c0!2m2!1d-7.8915829!2d52.5159097!1m5!1m1!1s0x485cc5c14e9fde9f:0x1bafd3668106573e!2m2!1d-7.8681021!2d52.6395472!3e0 Utterly impractical and would have been a vast undertaking.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 19-11-2017 3:26pm

Victor wrote: »

For a distance of 15km? https://www.google.ie/maps/dir/Cashel/Holycross+Abbey/@52.5775573,-7.941406,12z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x485ccbe80c23e567:0xa00c7a99731e9c0!2m2!1d-7.8915829!2d52.5159097!1m5!1m1!1s0x485cc5c14e9fde9f:0x1bafd3668106573e!2m2!1d-7.8681021!2d52.6395472!3e0 Utterly impractical and would have been a vast undertaking.

Not really. If the surrounding area was limestone, there would already be quite a number of natural tunnels worn in the rock from rain and underground rivers so, while digging one would have been a massive undertaking, finding/digging into an already existing system would have been more likely.

There is a castle about a mile from where I live and I have travelled most of the way there underground with a neighbour through natural tunnels. We didn't go the whole way as he felt the tunnels were unsafe due to further erosion since he was young but it would be a relatively simple task to unblock the tunnel and use the stone to level the worst parts of the journey, as we could see had been done before by someone.

tabbey · 19-11-2017 4:22pm

Tyson Fury wrote: »

Apparantly there's a tunnel from the rock of Cashel to Holycross Abbey.

And another from Holycross to Kilcooley and back to Cashel!!

Seriously, there was never a need for such projects, never mind the resources required.

These folktales originate in minor works, perhaps to protect valuable / sacred objects from Vikings or whoever, then they grow legs each time the story is told, and primitive people believe what they were told, out of respect for their elders.

If it looks, smells or sounds like a fairytale, it is.

enfield · 24-11-2017 9:53am

Tyson Fury wrote: »

Apparantly there's a tunnel from the rock of Cashel to Holycross Abbey.

There is a 'cavern', Grotto or castellated room, about 5 metres long, three metres wide, and two metres tall at its highest, in the older structures at the back of Holycross Abbey that was supposed to head towards Cashel. If you go into it (which I did) you will see it is one of five such 'rooms' in that complex. It is not a tunnel but as you can only look at it, at an angle, through a metal gate you could surmise it is a tunnel, and I have been told by locals (I am one) that it is a tunnel, which is is not. There is a tunnel going from the bottom of the stone steps in the Abbey to Beakstown Mill about 1/2 a mile away. This was closed up in 1975 when the Abbey was being rebuilt.
Cheers.
Tom.

Undergroundd Passages

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