Bewleys set to close

3d4life · 25-07-2020 8:06pm

Rubberchikken wrote: »

......

It was a shop, bewleys was a cafe - who the heck cares.

I wouldnt have ( even had the opportunity ) to be a customer in the last several decades but I can tell you that in the 50s, 60s and 70s there was nowhere else in Dublin that could come close to it. The pure drama of coffee being roasted in the front window. The wonderful confectionary. Is there anywhere else - then or now - that sold goosberry tarts or Gugelhupf cakes ? Tea ? if you wanted anything other than Lyons or Barrys it was from Bewleys.

Maybe they were trading off their reputation ... but what a reputation it was !

Dempo1 · 25-07-2020 8:33pm

This saga is not new and there's a long history of play acting by the Campbells who own the lease (of Campbell catering fame). I've lost count of how many spats they've had with their landlord and they seem to have forgotten they sold the building and lease it now. The parent company has a substantial cash pile, up to €70 million and this is not the first time there has been rent issues and disputes.

This time they've met their match and have come back grovelling, offer outstanding Rent, over €700k, interest and costs, and only because of a petition by the landlord to wind up the parent company. The Campbells have run out of excuses and any attempt to blame the Covid-19 19 lockdown is outrageous. They were very quick to make all their staff redundant and this seems lost in the media coverage.

Sad to say I hope they get their Justs desserts (excuse the pun), the landlord (another charming beaut) has the upper hand here and I believe he'll go all the way and rid himself of this troublesome tenant once and for all.

25-07-2020 9:03pm

Rubberchikken wrote: »

I never saw the attraction.
Went in once years ago with the kids when we were on a day out. Not impressed.

Tried it once more a couple of years back and walked out. Messy, overpriced and the staff/atmosphere left a lot to be desired.

As with clearys, people don't frequent it but then get misty eyed and sentimental about it.

It was a shop, bewleys was a cafe - who the heck cares.

Ah it really was great once. It was one of the busiest cafes in the area, pre renovation. Even recently, you'd never have seen it empty. Nothing like Clery's.

The place did go downhill after the renovation, though. It looked more impressive, but lost atmosphere. The clientele changed a little bit, probably attracting customers from the likes of The Westbury (as opposed to students, which were a fairly sizable number of the clientele pre-renovation). It's generally a good idea to attract higher-spending customers, but I suspect Bewleys overestimated the revenue it would generate.

I think Bewleys/ Campbells' mistake was that it wasn't broken, they needn't have fixed it. Obviously that's just a blind statement, with no real knowledge of what games they're playing, if any.

Caquas · 25-07-2020 9:15pm

Once upon a time, up until the 1990s, it was one of the few places you could get decent coffee in Dublin. With steamed milk, not frothy like a cappucinno. And there was an atmosphere - people meeting, relaxing, talking.

But everything has to change if the rent is 30 K. a month. No more students nursing cheap coffees as they debate the great issues for hours. No more genteel ladies sharing a sticky bun.

A thousand euro every day before you even open the doors.

Muahahaha · 25-07-2020 9:45pm

Dempo1 wrote: »

This saga is not new and there's a long history of play acting by the Campbells who own the lease (of Campbell catering fame). I've lost count of how many spats they've had with their landlord and they seem to have forgotten they sold the building and lease it now. The parent company has a substantial cash pile, up to €70 million and this is not the first time there has been rent issues and disputes.

This time they've met their match and have come back grovelling, offer outstanding Rent, over €700k, interest and costs, and only because of a petition by the landlord to wind up the parent company. The Campbells have run out of excuses and any attempt to blame the Covid-19 19 lockdown is outrageous. They were very quick to make all their staff redundant and this seems lost in the media coverage.

Sad to say I hope they get their Justs desserts (excuse the pun), the landlord (another charming beaut) has the upper hand here and I believe he'll go all the way and rid himself of this troublesome tenant once and for all.

Yeah all of the above is what I feared and if it turns out to the be the case that the Campbells were trying to play hardball with Ronan in order to get a rent reduction whilst making their own staff the collateral damage then that is a really scummy move on their part.

It certainly seems strange that they were bleating the poor mouth in May and now in July they're waving cheques about the place. Those 110 staff are not going to find it easy to find new job in hospitality in the current environment.

Dempo1 · 26-07-2020 9:29am

Really quite disgusting, most media seem to be lamenting tragic downfall of this once iconic institution. When the sad reality is for years the company behind this cafe has been acting the maggot. The staff and indeed suppliers have been treated disgracefully.

Darc19 · 26-07-2020 12:02pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

I wonder what happened that they couldnt afford the rent in May but now are offering to pay all the rent arrears and interest and legal costs. 110 people lost their jobs in the meantime.

No jobs have been lost yet. Whilst they said the store was not reopening, no notice was given to staff yet.

It's all gameplay

Imo, Campbell was using the lockdown as a bargaining tool to force down the rent and try and get people riled up.

Ronan couldn't give a rats arse what daily mail readers think and the plan backfired on Campbell when a lot of the comments were about poor service, high prices and insipid atmosphere.

Ronan also gave statements saying that Campbell had not informed him of the closure intent and that rent had not been paid despite millions in the parent company account. He also offered to sell the building at the market price.

Bewleys themselves are a large company. Ireland is a small part of it. But the iconic Cafe is something they use a lot in their marketing in the uk and USA

Dempo1 · 26-07-2020 12:11pm

Darc19 wrote: »

No jobs have been lost yet. Whilst they said the store was not reopening, no notice was given to staff yet.

It's all gameplay

Imo, Campbell was using the lockdown as a bargaining tool to force down the rent and try and get people riled up.

Ronan couldn't give a rats arse what daily mail readers think and the plan backfired on Campbell when a lot of the comments were about poor service, high prices and insipid atmosphere.

Ronan also gave statements saying that Campbell had not informed him of the closure intent and that rent had not been paid despite millions in the parent company account. He also offered to sell the building at the market price.

Bewleys themselves are a large company. Ireland is a small part of it. But the iconic Cafe is something they use a lot in their marketing in the uk and USA

Perhaps I'm wrong but Bewleys themselves annouced all staff being let go

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/retail-and-services/staff-at-bewley-s-cafe-on-grafton-street-are-made-redundant-1.4293787

Unfortunately the games commenced years ago with numerous rent disputes, I believe this latest debacle was cynically created by bewleys on the back of the Covid-19 crisis. I do however believe Ronan wants the property back and the Campbells have played their last deck of cards in this long running game. The real losers are both staff and suppliers. I'd rarely ever side with Ronan on anything but any right minded and objective bystander can see Campbells are completly out of order and wrong.

Darc19 · 26-07-2020 12:12pm

Caquas wrote: »

But everything has to change if the rent is 30 K. a month. No more students nursing cheap coffees as they debate the great issues for hours. No more genteel ladies sharing a sticky bun.

A thousand euro every day before you even open the doors.

30k a month - that would be an absolute bargain. 30k a week is the rent.

High, but not outrageously high. The building is about 10,000 Sq ft.

To give an idea of rents in prime areas, Smiggle are paying €200,000 a year for their tiny shop in Dundrum (that's why they are so expensive)

Closer to bewleys, Victoria Secret is paying €1.8million for their store.

Market rent for bewleys building is certainly over €1m a year once covid issue is gone (vaccine will come and the world will get back to normal)

Dempo1 · 26-07-2020 12:14pm

Darc19 wrote: »

30k a month - that would be an absolute bargain. 30k a week is the rent.

High, but not outrageously high. The building is about 10,000 Sq ft.

To give an idea of rents in prime areas, Smiggle are paying €200,000 a year for their tiny shop in Dundrum (that's why they are so expensive)

Closer to bewleys, Victoria Secret is paying €1.8million for their store.

Market rent for bewleys building is certainly over €1m a year once covid issue is gone (vaccine will come and the world will get back to normal)

This is not about historical rent, it's about the Tenant not paying it and not for the first time. I've no doubt rent negotiations will take place with new Tenants, although I suspect landlord as other plans for the premises

26-07-2020 3:25pm

Caquas wrote: »

Once upon a time, up until the 1990s, it was one of the few places you could get decent coffee in Dublin. With steamed milk, not frothy like a cappucinno. And there was an atmosphere - people meeting, relaxing, talking.

But everything has to change if the rent is 30 K. a month. No more students nursing cheap coffees as they debate the great issues for hours. No more genteel ladies sharing a sticky bun.

I wonder how much rent Starbucks on the Green is paying? It's essentially a breakout/study study area for RCSI at this stage.

They also do something very nice, or did pre Covid, which an assistant told me one night when I was grabbing a coffee. If a homeless person comes in and orders a coffee, they can stay for the night as long as they're keeping to themselves. He said other 24-hour premises in the area have agreed the same policy, like fast food places. Nice isn't it? I always go there for coffee now, even if it isn't great coffee.

That's a bit of an aside but just to show that others seem to be managing to cover their costs whilst Bewleys seems to have over reached.

Dempo1 · 26-07-2020 3:32pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I wonder how much rent Starbucks on the Green is paying? It's essentially a breakout/study study area for RCSI at this stage.

They also do something very nice, or did pre Covid, which an assistant told me one night when I was grabbing a coffee. If a homeless person comes in and orders a coffee, they can stay for the night as long as they're keeping to themselves. He said other 24-hour premises in the area have agreed the same policy, like fast food places. Nice isn't it? I always go there for coffee now, even if it isn't great coffee.

That's a bit of an aside but just to show that others seem to be managing to cover their costs whilst Bewleys seems to have over reached.

Very nice gesture from them and its heartening to see any business doing the decent thing.

Darc19 · 26-07-2020 4:47pm

Dempo1 wrote: »

This is not about historical rent, it's about the Tenant not paying it and not for the first time. I've no doubt rent negotiations will take place with new Tenants, although I suspect landlord as other plans for the premises

Commercial lease is different to residential lease. Once a tenant is in a unit for more than 5 years, they have entitlement to new lease unless they have signed a renunciation of the rights. (highly unlikely in this case)

So when the current lease ends, bewleys can walk away, but if they want a new lease, it must be given and if there's a dispute over rent, that can go to binding arbitration.

I suspect bewleys will be there for many more years, but the format has to change. It needs to go back to being a meeting place with atmosphere.

Darc19 · 26-07-2020 5:00pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I wonder how much rent Starbucks on the Green is paying? It's essentially a breakout/study study area for RCSI at this stage.

€116,000 a year.
Originally was €81,000 when they took it in 2013.

Reviewed to €116,000 in 2018

Caquas · 27-07-2020 2:53pm

Darc19 wrote: »

30k a month - that would be an absolute bargain. 30k a week is the rent.

High, but not outrageously high. The building is about 10,000 Sq ft.

To give an idea of rents in prime areas, Smiggle are paying €200,000 a year for their tiny shop in Dundrum (that's why they are so expensive)

Closer to bewleys, Victoria Secret is paying €1.8million for their store.

Market rent for bewleys building is certainly over €1m a year once covid issue is gone (vaccine will come and the world will get back to normal)

Thanks, my point is stronger than I thought.

No amount of milky coffee is going to generate almost €4,300 of profit every day (even if they can get robots to replace all the staff they laid off).

If the customers are socially distanced, they’d each have to spend about four times more on average than in recent times, which was probably 10 times what the customers of yore would pay.

This rent is unsustainable during the pandemic i.e. for the next year at least.

Darc19 · 27-07-2020 8:04pm

Caquas wrote: »

Thanks, my point is stronger than I thought.

No amount of milky coffee is going to generate almost €4,300 of profit every day (even if they can get robots to replace all the staff they laid off).

If the customers are socially distanced, they’d each have to spend about four times more on average than in recent times, which was probably 10 times what the customers of yore would pay.

This rent is unsustainable during the pandemic i.e. for the next year at least.

Their turnover last year was in excess of €5m.

30% of turnover as rent is not unknown in the food and beverages business, but the ideal target is 20%.

RCK1 · 29-07-2020 11:38pm

I passed by it last night and the notices saying goodbye are gone and they windows uncovered. Various media reports says it due to reopen in the coming weeks.

Delighted if it does as its such an important part of the citys history and culture which I love visiting. Yes it was slightly more expensive but it was a great experience. In saying that the food menu could be more varied and better value with less focus on being fancy.

I believe they have 2 years left in the current 35 year lease. I dont know much about commercial rents but if it can survive surely the upwards only rent review,that caused so much trouble, would now be gone leading to a (slightly)more favourable rent?

One of the reasons for the recent renovations was to help make it easier to run and more profitable. The Bewleys parent company is trading off the cafes name and reputation and their branding is based on the Harry Clarke windows so surely it's in their interest to keep it going? Johnny Ronan is a word that rhymes with anchor/bamker/tanker,the videos in South Africa prove that, but the Campbells created this situation by selling the building to make a quick buck when they took over the Bewleys company.

Strumms · 30-07-2020 2:24am

RCK1 wrote: »

I passed by it last night and the notices saying goodbye are gone and they windows uncovered. Various media reports says it due to reopen in the coming weeks.

Delighted if it does as its such an important part of the citys history and culture which I love visiting. Yes it was slightly more expensive but it was a great experience. In saying that the food menu could be more varied and better value with less focus on being fancy.

I believe they have 2 years left in the current 35 year lease. I dont know much about commercial rents but if it can survive surely the upwards only rent review,that caused so much trouble, would now be gone leading to a (slightly)more favourable rent?

One of the reasons for the recent renovations was to help make it easier to run and more profitable. The Bewleys parent company is trading off the cafes name and reputation and their branding is based on the Harry Clarke windows so surely it's in their interest to keep it going? Johnny Ronan is a word that rhymes with anchor/bamker/tanker,the videos in South Africa prove that, but the Campbells created this situation by selling the building to make a quick buck when they took over the Bewleys company.

Agreed, JR would buy the airport if he could and turn it into a casino in an ideal world... “ehhh JR you have shut Dublin Airport, the country’s major, travel, transport and logistics hub, what do you say?”... “yes, but it will make me richer, that’s all I care about, next !?”

yourdeadwright · 30-07-2020 9:28am

RCK1 wrote: »

I passed by it last night and the notices saying goodbye are gone and they windows uncovered. Various media reports says it due to reopen in the coming weeks.

Delighted if it does as its such an important part of the citys history and culture which I love visiting. Yes it was slightly more expensive but it was a great experience. In saying that the food menu could be more varied and better value with less focus on being fancy.

I believe they have 2 years left in the current 35 year lease. I dont know much about commercial rents but if it can survive surely the upwards only rent review,that caused so much trouble, would now be gone leading to a (slightly)more favourable rent?

One of the reasons for the recent renovations was to help make it easier to run and more profitable. The Bewleys parent company is trading off the cafes name and reputation and their branding is based on the Harry Clarke windows so surely it's in their interest to keep it going? Johnny Ronan is a word that rhymes with anchor/bamker/tanker,the videos in South Africa prove that, but the Campbells created this situation by selling the building to make a quick buck when they took over the Bewleys company.

I seen an article on Dublin live a few days ago

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/historic-bewleys-set-reopen-grafton-18667850

L1011 · 30-07-2020 9:32am

RCK1 wrote: »

I believe they have 2 years left in the current 35 year lease. I dont know much about commercial rents but if it can survive surely the upwards only rent review,that caused so much trouble, would now be gone leading to a (slightly)more favourable rent?

Yes, it would be an entirely new lease

Unless the retail market massively improves, the new rent would be significantly lower not slightly lower. Rent would be set by arbitration, not RGRE and unlike last time the rent was recommended to be massively cut; there won't be a legal angle to appeal - that law is well settled.

Victorias Secret's awful deal keeps getting mentioned on here as if its a baseline for further leases - its not, its the modern equivalent of someones 2007 Tiger era lease. There are plenty of shops on Grafton Street that won't be reopening and more that may re-close.

antimatterx · 30-07-2020 8:09pm

Set to reopen August 27th

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/retail-and-services/bewley-s-grafton-street-cafe-to-reopen-from-august-27th-at-latest-1.4318090

Dempo1 · 26-08-2020 6:14pm

Bewleys reopening tomorrow, I hear humble pie is being served all day

Darc19 · 26-08-2020 7:54pm

Dempo1 wrote: »

Bewleys reopening tomorrow, I hear humble pie is being served all day

€15 a slice

Dempo1 · 26-08-2020 7:55pm

Darc19 wrote: »

€15 a slice

And that's takeaway price

imme · 27-08-2020 5:28pm

€4 for a croissant,
do you eat it with a knife and fork?

Dempo1 · 27-08-2020 5:33pm

imme wrote: »

€4 for a croissant,
do you eat it with a knife and fork?

LOL

, I see THE PR started today, articles in papers etc, 3 generations of campbells, vomit enducing stuff, seems they've forgotten the 120 employee's let go a few months back but just amazing they've found some spare change to pay their rent, arrears and interest, they met their match with a landlord not taking any more nonsense.

Anyone try the Humble pie?, heard its a little bitter

mickdw · 27-08-2020 8:31pm

mickdw wrote: »

Id bet good money it will be trading later this year with the same branding over the door.

..... Well i did say

Dempo1 · 27-08-2020 8:39pm

mickdw wrote: »

..... Well i did say

Yes you did

, it was either a reopening or the leaseholder family looking at substantial judgement against them, I'd say they are sick having to reopen, it's certainly not out of choice. It will tick along but no doubt they be back to acting the maggot once the dust settles. Costly little episode, no shrinking violet, their landlord is.

Quackster · 27-08-2020 11:59pm

Dempo1 wrote: »

Yes you did , it was either a reopening or the leaseholder family looking at substantial judgement against them, I'd say they are sick having to reopen, it's certainly not out of choice. It will tick along but no doubt they be back to acting the maggot once the dust settles. Costly little episode, no shrinking violet, their landlord is.

In fairness, they don't have much longer to run on the current lease and then they can look forward to having their rent slashed to a fraction of what it currently is.

Geuze · 28-08-2020 12:10am

Darc19 wrote: »

30k a month - that would be an absolute bargain. 30k a week is the rent.

High, but not outrageously high. The building is about 10,000 Sq ft.

To give an idea of rents in prime areas, Smiggle are paying €200,000 a year for their tiny shop in Dundrum (that's why they are so expensive)

Closer to bewleys, Victoria Secret is paying €1.8million for their store.

Market rent for bewleys building is certainly over €1m a year once covid issue is gone (vaccine will come and the world will get back to normal)

1.5 m per year

125,000 per month

28,850 per week

4,100 per day

All commercial rents in Ireland are way too high.

It's good to read that a more reasonable rent is 33% less.

Let's hope rents fall that much.

Biker79 · 28-08-2020 8:23pm

Will pop up in the morning and see how the lattes are.

Muahahaha · 28-08-2020 8:36pm

Dempo1 wrote: »

LOL , I see THE PR started today, articles in papers etc, 3 generations of campbells, vomit enducing stuff, seems they've forgotten the 120 employee's let go a few months back but just amazing they've found some spare change to pay their rent, arrears and interest, they met their match with a landlord not taking any more nonsense.

Anyone try the Humble pie?, heard its a little bitter

yeah I saw that photo call with the Campbells outside it on the day of re-opening. Was wondering how they could even look their staff in the eye having just let them go a few months prior despite them having millions in the bank. The staff now know their employer used them as pawns and made them redundant so they could play hardball with the landlord. They ought to find themselves a better employer than that.

Darc19 · 28-08-2020 9:46pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

yeah I saw that photo call with the Campbells outside it on the day of re-opening. Was wondering how they could even look their staff in the eye having just let them go a few months prior despite them having millions in the bank. The staff now know their employer used them as pawns and made them redundant so they could play hardball with the landlord. They ought to find themselves a better employer than that.

Most of the staff would have been on the covid payment and I would suspect that they were aware of the game being played.

Bewleys Cafe is loss making. It's the parent company that has money as the wholesale business is strong.

Dempo1 · 28-08-2020 9:58pm

Darc19 wrote: »

Most of the staff would have been on the covid payment and I would suspect that they were aware of the game being played.

Bewleys Cafe is loss making. It's the parent company that has money as the wholesale business is strong.

Let's not sugar coat this, the operators have been acting the maggot since the day they sold this building at a handsome profit and then leased it back, they knew its rental market value, they knew exactly what they were getting into.

As previously stated by them, 120 staff were made redundant and whilst these unfortunate staff were on PUP, it hardly makes it acceptable.

Its only open for one reason, they had too and not out of choice & their recent games backfired spectacularly & at enormous cost, far more if they'd actually been paying their rent before the pandemic. The most disgusting aspect of this entire affair was the cynical way they blamed the pandemic for all their woes.

it will be run on a shoe string until lease up, I believe along with humble pie on the menu, they will now be supplying a fork in sugar bowls from now on.

Muahahaha · 30-08-2020 3:46pm

yeah agreed, its not about the PUP, its about management playing with their staffs lives and making them uncertain of their future just so they could use them as pawns in a high stakes poker game.

strandroad · 30-08-2020 4:24pm

For what it's worth, there was a line out of the door almost to the corner yesterday and it was past lunch time.

Atlantic Dawn · 30-08-2020 4:26pm

Geuze wrote: »

1.5 m per year

125,000 per month

28,850 per week

4,100 per day

All commercial rents in Ireland are way too high.

It's good to read that a more reasonable rent is 33% less.

Let's hope rents fall that much.

If they are still paying this level of rent they won't be around this time next year. I would think they should have got a big reduction seeing as the property is only worth a fraction of what it was at the start of the year as retail is struggling.

30-08-2020 7:26pm

Mr.S wrote: »

Breathes a bit of life onto Grafton Street which is badly needed.

Do the Property companies have the same sentiment?

Quackster · 31-08-2020 12:21pm

Dempo1 wrote: »

Let's not sugar coat this, the operators have been acting the maggot since the day they sold this building at a handsome profit and then leased it back, they knew its rental market value, they knew exactly what they were getting into.

As previously stated by them, 120 staff were made redundant and whilst these unfortunate staff were on PUP, it hardly makes it acceptable.

Its only open for one reason, they had too and not out of choice & their recent games backfired spectacularly & at enormous cost, far more if they'd actually been paying their rent before the pandemic. The most disgusting aspect of this entire affair was the cynical way they blamed the pandemic for all their woes.

it will be run on a shoe string until lease up, I believe along with humble pie on the menu, they will now be supplying a fork in sugar bowls from now on.

It reopened because they wanted to, not because they had to.

The landlord made it clear they could walk away from the lease and he previously offered to buy them out.

The Campbells clearly consider it of sufficient value to the Bewley's brand to hold onto it and continue running it at a loss for now, knowing their rent will be slashed in a few years.

Dempo1 · 17-12-2020 8:30am

The Saga continues. During the week Paddy Campbell announced he was donating the famed stained glass panels and other artifacts to the nation, Worth an estimated €2 million, I thought how generous and I'm sure there's a tax efficient angle, but wondered, how was such a generous offer possible, given he sold the Building and is only leasing it. He discussed his recent (and by no means the first spat) he's had with his landlord, claiming it was never personal.

It is now and yet again it appears the Campbell"s have stirred a hornets nest. You'd have to wonder what planet these people are on, yet another excuse use to close I wonder and blame the big bad landlord?

https://amp-independent-ie.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/trouble-brewing-johnny-ronans-firm-claims-it-owns-bewleys-stained-glass-windows-39873168.html?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a6&usqp=mq331AQHKAFQArABIA%3D%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16081895663927&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.ie%2Firish-news%2Ftrouble-brewing-johnny-ronans-firm-claims-it-owns-bewleys-stained-glass-windows-39873168.html

L1011 · 17-12-2020 8:59am

If you've been inside the building, they are clearly internal fittings and not part of the fabric. They are either backlit electrically or fitted over an external window.

Just Ronan stirring the pot before he gets hammered on lease renewal due to the possible rent collapsing

If Ronan wants to claim he owns the fixtures and fittings he may want to retrospectively contribute to 30 years of upkeep!

Dempo1 · 17-12-2020 9:17am

L1011 wrote: »

If you've been inside the building, they are clearly internal fittings and not part of the fabric. They are either backlit electrically or fitted over an external window.

Just Ronan stirring the pot before he gets hammered on lease renewal due to the possible rent collapsing

If Ronan wants to claim he owns the fixtures and fittings he may want to retrospectively contribute to 30 years of upkeep!

I've been there many times and these windows have been in situ since 1927. To suggest they are not part of the fabric of the building is a little odd. Whilst I'm certainly no expert on what constitutes fixtures and fittings, it would seem windows certainly would, whatever their design or make up. This particular argument over the windows has come up before and prior to initial closure and whilst Senior Counsel advice sought on both sides, it went nowhere.

More pertinent is regardless of ownership dispute , hell would freeze over if they were ever removed so in essence, the owner of the property, Johnny Ronan, will retain ownership as long as he's legal owner, Not Paddy Campbell , who is a Tenant. I'm not at all sure why he actually made his bizzare offer to the Nation, they will remain in place regardless, I suspect given the history of his Tenancy it's more of a PR and attempted tax break stunt.

I'm absolutely no fan of Johnny Ronan by the way.

Muahahaha · 17-12-2020 6:35pm

Dempo1 wrote: »

The Saga continues. During the week Paddy Campbell announced he was donating the famed stained glass panels and other artifacts to the nation, Worth an estimated €2 million, I thought how generous and I'm sure there's a tax efficient angle, but wondered, how was such a generous offer possible, given he sold the Building and is only leasing it. He discussed his recent (and by no means the first spat) he's had with his landlord, claiming it was never personal.

There is a tax law that says if you have an artwork of nationally important significance and you display it in public there are tax benefits derivied from doing so. The item has to have a minimum value of 150k and be displayed to the public in a Revenue approved venue like a museum. Doing so then allows an 80% deduction on income tax or corporation tax. If the owner displays it for 10 years they are then also exempt for capital gains on the sale of the artwork. So for investors they can buy a valuable Irish artwork, outsource its security, storage and insurance to a museum and then sell it 10 years later with no capital gains tax liable on the profits.

Not sure how the above would apply to Bewleys but Im sure a good tax accountant would work it out.

Dempo1 · 17-12-2020 6:50pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

There is a tax law that says if you have an artwork of nationally important significance and you display it in public there are tax benefits derivied from doing so. The item has to have a minimum value of 150k and be displayed to the public in a Revenue approved venue like a museum. Doing so then allows an 80% deduction on income tax or corporation tax. If the owner displays it for 10 years they are then also exempt for capital gains on the sale of the artwork. So for investors they can buy a valuable Irish artwork, outsource its security, storage and insurance to a museum and then sell it 10 years later with no capital gains tax liable on the profits.

Not sure how the above would apply to Bewleys but Im sure a good tax accountant would work it out.

All correct, it was hinted initially this was one of the reasons Campbell came up with this idea, in reality, it's extremely doubtful a fixed window whilst certainly of enormous importance would be considered or count under such a scheme, particularly in an already protected building, the window by default is already on display and certainly won't be permitted to be moved, most of Clarkes stain glass windows are in Church's, already covered by charitable status.

Marcusm · 17-12-2020 11:13pm

L1011 wrote: »

If you've been inside the building, they are clearly internal fittings and not part of the fabric. They are either backlit electrically or fitted over an external window.

Just Ronan stirring the pot before he gets hammered on lease renewal due to the possible rent collapsing

If Ronan wants to claim he owns the fixtures and fittings he may want to retrospectively contribute to 30 years of upkeep!

The question will be whether they were part of the fabric when Rohan’s company Ickandel acquired the building which certainly predated the 2094 refurb not to mind the more recent one. No doubt the lease was on an FRI basis and there would not have been a reason for the landlord to contribute. There was a court case going back to that earlier refurb. This might end up as a Conrad Gallagher/Peacock Alley position if the windows have been removed from the fabric and now Campbell seeks to transfer ownership.

Darc19 · 17-12-2020 11:43pm

L1011 wrote: »

If you've been inside the building, they are clearly internal fittings and not part of the fabric. They are either backlit electrically or fitted over an external window.

Just Ronan stirring the pot before he gets hammered on lease renewal due to the possible rent collapsing

If Ronan wants to claim he owns the fixtures and fittings he may want to retrospectively contribute to 30 years of upkeep!

I don't understand this thinking that rent will collapse. Market rent is probably about 1.2-1.3m when looking at other comparisons.

That it can serve food and probably open late and potentially have a bar license would see that even higher. Covid will be forgotten by the time the new lease is in place.

RCK1 · 19-12-2020 1:56pm

Darc19 wrote: »

I don't understand this thinking that rent will collapse. Market rent is probably about 1.2-1.3m when looking at other comparisons.

That it can serve food and probably open late and potentially have a bar license would see that even higher. Covid will be forgotten by the time the new lease is in place.

Cant remember where but read at the way things stand now it would drop to 700,000 to 800,000 which would actually let Bewleys some sort of profit on it without support from the parent company.

RCK1 · 03-03-2021 7:17pm

Interesting too see which way this plays out! They aren't a structural element of the building so hopefully Bewleys wins, even if its just to piss the RG off as the windows are worth alot of money
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/retail-and-services/bewley-s-wants-taxpayer-to-foot-rent-bill-landlord-tells-court-1.4473241

L1011 · 12-05-2022 8:14pm

RGREs receivers are selling the building. So much for Ronan's posturing.

He can, in theory, hold on to it if he manages to refinance a loan.

The expiring lease and the vast quantities of retail units still empty on Grafton Street won't help the price.

blue5000 · 13-05-2022 9:56am

As a culchie living in the sticks, who hasn’t been to Dublin since covid started, just how bad are things for retailers in Dublin now? Like how much is coffee and a sandwich in Bewley’s these days? Can you still buy a quarter pound of mint fudge in there?

Bewleys set to close

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