This is a thread about the 2020 Six Nations, formerly the Five Nations

Eod100 · 27-07-2020 9:49pm

salmocab wrote: »

I know it’s not going to work out but with all these matches along with a late start to next season and apparently a Lions tour scheduled is there an actual plan to play out a full season with enough available weekends.

Might make a difference if Pro14 reverts back to Pro12 without SA teams next season but think plan is to go ahead either way. Not too sure about rest weekends but guess players playing internationals, Champions Cup and Lions may not be involved in much of standard Pro14 season.

27-07-2020 10:23pm

Definitely seems like they are trying to flood the next few months with high quality fixtures with the expectation that covid will ultimately claim much of the playing window. Probably not wrong either and you would wonder how much the club game is going to end up featuring this year. The IRFU will be heavily financing the provinces and an autumn expanded six nations is probably the best way to maximise earnings.

27-07-2020 10:41pm

Very surprised this is actually going ahead. I dismissed it as a slow news day when it first came up.

BonnieSituation · 27-07-2020 11:07pm

Clegg wrote: »

Jaopan and Fiji to join with the other Six Nations side for an 8 Nations event this Autumn. There's going to be two pools. One pool will be England, Wales, Ireland and Fiji. The other will be France, Scotland, Italy and Japan.

Once the pool is complete you play the side from the other look who finished in the same position.

https://twitter.com/guardian_sport/status/1287841293780082690?s=19

I saw the pools on RTÉ earlier. When was that drawn or what were the criteria? World ranking seeding?

Which they hardly were... Given:

3 England 88.41
4 Ireland 84.91
5 France 82.73
6 Wales 82.64
8 Scotland 80.68
9 Japan 79.28
11 Fiji 76.21
14 Italy 71.07

Former Former · 27-07-2020 11:25pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I saw the pools on RTÉ earlier. When was that drawn or what were the criteria? World ranking seeding?

My personal theory is that Ireland will play France and Italy in October, so were kept apart in November. Likewise England kept apart from Italy and Wales from Scotland.

BonnieSituation · 27-07-2020 11:33pm

Former Former wrote: »

My personal theory is that Ireland will play France and Italy in October, so were kept apart in November. Likewise England kept apart from Italy and Wales from Scotland.

That makes perfect sense.

WeleaseWoderick · 28-07-2020 9:48am

Former Former wrote: »

My personal theory is that Ireland will play France and Italy in October, so were kept apart in November. Likewise England kept apart from Italy and Wales from Scotland.

Was thinking that myself listening to the groups on OTB. They could have achieved the same thing though but switched Wales & Scotland around to even up the groups a bit more.

Muligatawney · 28-07-2020 10:01am

This isn't a tournament though in any real sense. I think we want to play the best teams in this set up rather than finish top and then play the other top team. It's unbalanced in the same way as November internationals always are.

un5byh7sqpd2x0 · 28-07-2020 10:20am

Sounds to me like it will be an Ireland ‘A’ team that will be taking part in this Mickey Mouse tournament.

28-07-2020 10:28am

We really need to turn England over. They've comprehensively beaten us the last two six nations and they embarrassed us in the RWC warm ups.

If we keep giving them scalps they'll turn into a bogey team despite us largely having the upper hand on them since 2004.

If we get the back 5 right and our kicking game is spotless then we can beat them. I don't think Lowe will be eligible for this tournament - instant boost to our chances if he's available.

BonnieSituation · 28-07-2020 10:44am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We really need to turn England over. They've comprehensively beaten us the last two six nations and they embarrassed us in the RWC warm ups.

If we keep giving them scalps they'll turn into a bogey team despite us largely having the upper hand on them since 2004.

If we get the back 5 right and our kicking game is spotless then we can beat them. I don't think Lowe will be eligible for this tournament - instant boost to our chances if he's available.

Lowe was eligible for the original Autumn internationals as they stood. So he should surely be eligible for these if not at least some of them. They'd hardly restrict his eligibility for "the tournament" given it is a once of structured grouping of autumn internationals essentially.

Anyone know what the original eligibility date was?

He played for Tasman in their loss against Canterbury on 28/10/2017 and then moved to Leinster. So it would have been that week or so after anyway, that he came over.

28-07-2020 10:55am

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Lowe was eligible for the original Autumn internationals as they stood. So he should surely be eligible for these if not at least some of them. They'd hardly restrict his eligibility for "the tournament" given it is a once of structured grouping of autumn internationals essentially.

Anyone know what the original eligibility date was?

He played for Tasman in their loss against Canterbury on 28/10/2017 and then moved to Leinster. So it would have been that week or so after anyway, that he came over.

I've just checked and he's eligible from the start of November.

Clegg · 28-07-2020 11:17am

If James Ryan really is injured we may as well throw in Ryan Baird into the 23. As much as I respect Toner, he's not getting any younger. And Jean Kleyn would be a waste of a spot.

bilston · 28-07-2020 11:46am

Clegg wrote: »

If James Ryan really is injured we may as well throw in Ryan Baird into the 23. As much as I respect Toner, he's not getting any younger. And Jean Kleyn would be a waste of a spot.

I'd say Baird will get a couple of caps over the 6 games. It would be good if the lads in that additional training group named in the original 6Ns squad (Baird, H.Byrne, Balacoune and one other, can't remember who it wss) all got a shot at some stage, but a lot will depend on the Inter Pros and European games in August and September.

Hooker will be interesting, will Kelleher overtake Herring, it seems inevitable at some point. I'm looking forward to seeing Doris getting in at No 8, am I right in saying he was impressive at Twickenham when he came on? I vaguely remember thinking that.

aloooof · 28-07-2020 12:22pm

bilston wrote: »

I'm looking forward to seeing Doris getting in at No 8, am I right in saying he was impressive at Twickenham when he came on? I vaguely remember thinking that.

England scored to make it 24-5 just 2 mins after he came on and took the foot off the pedal so I don't think we can read too much into that. But having said that, I fully expect him to get some starts and impress.

Is Conan back fit now tho? A lot could depend on who gets the nod at Leinster. (Personally think I'd favour Doris).

If all games go ahead as scheduled, there'll be plenty of game time to go around anyways, will be good to see some new caps.

ionadnapokot · 28-07-2020 1:42pm

Deleted User wrote: »

We really need to turn England over. They've comprehensively beaten us the last two six nations and they embarrassed us in the RWC warm ups.

If we keep giving them scalps they'll turn into a bogey team despite us largely having the upper hand on them since 2004.

If we get the back 5 right and our kicking game is spotless then we can beat them. I don't think Lowe will be eligible for this tournament - instant boost to our chances if he's available.

Im afraid I cant see this happening anytime soon. England have Ireland sussed big time.
Got so rugby starved over last few months i watched the game in Twickenham again. Just to cheer me up!
England have more power,
better playmakers (10&12),
https://twitter.com/brettruganalyst/status/1231727057169764358
better kicking game and Ireland cant handle Tuilagi at all.
https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1236712589373079552

Murray, Sexton, Earls and Healy arent going to get any better, lay-off or not.
& that backrow of Curry, Underhill and BillyV is exceptional.

Im expecting England to dominate the Championships over the next 3-4 years with France the coming force.

pickarooney · 28-07-2020 2:42pm

England are close to their peak while we're trying to rebuild a squad with a new coach. I don't see any way we beat them in the near future without a radical change in game plan and the emergence of a solid half-back pairing. For all the back rowers at Ireland's disposal we still don't have a proper balanced trio.

Former Former · 28-07-2020 2:58pm

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Im afraid I cant see this happening anytime soon. England have Ireland sussed big time.
Got so rugby starved over last few months i watched the game in Twickenham again. Just to cheer me up!
England have more power, better playmakers (10&12), better kicking game and Ireland cant handle Tuilagi at all.

Murray, Sexton, Earls and Healy arent going to get any better, lay-off or not.
& that backrow of Curry, Underhill and BillyV is exceptional.

Im expecting England to dominate the Championships over the next 3-4 years with France the coming force.

Why is it impossible that Murray won't improve? He had a bad run of form, why would you think it's permanent? Healy is only 32 and was playing very well prior to lockdown. Sexton, well, he's 35 so it's a big ask of him alright. Earls, I don't know, he might not even be in the team.

As for England, yeah they're very good but they're not so good that we won't have a hope.

It won't take a huge swing for us to be competitive again IMO.

Dog Botherer · 28-07-2020 3:00pm

if Super Rugby is anything to go by, pre-Covid form doesn’t mean very much. i wouldn’t be making any predictions about possible hammerings.

ionadnapokot · 28-07-2020 3:24pm

Former Former wrote: »

Why is it impossible that Murray won't improve? He had a bad run of form, why would you think it's permanent? Healy is only 32 and was playing very well prior to lockdown. Sexton, well, he's 35 so it's a big ask of him alright. Earls, I don't know, he might not even be in the team.

As for England, yeah they're very good but they're not so good that we won't have a hope.

It won't take a huge swing for us to be competitive again IMO.

Oh i think its a very plausible theory when you consider his performances post 2018 6N and take in his injury profile since injury v Wales in 2017.
He has lost power in that pass off his right side and his breaks are almost non-existent.
I would think the question is why do we think Murray is suddenly going to improve? We've been waiting for that for over two seasons.

This is the world class Murray of old.
SA 1st test 2016 - His play here from 74mins is pretty amazing stuff.
https://youtu.be/dJa5y77FaoQ?t=6462

I think their best days are well behind the lads mentioned above. Whereas almost all of England's players are coming into their prime

aloooof · 28-07-2020 5:10pm

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Oh i think its a very plausible theory when you consider his performances post 2018 6N and take in his injury profile since injury v Wales in 2017.
He has lost power in that pass off his right side and his breaks are almost non-existent.
I would think the question is why do we think Murray is suddenly going to improve? We've been waiting for that for over two seasons.

This is the world class Murray of old.
SA 1st test 2016 - His play here from 74mins is pretty amazing stuff.
https://youtu.be/dJa5y77FaoQ?t=6462

I think their best days are well behind the lads mentioned above. Whereas almost all of England's players are coming into their prime

Murray's career was pretty much on an upward trajectory from 2011 to 2018. I think this is his first sustained period of poor-to-decent form.

His downturn in form has coincided with 1) injuries issues and 2) the box-kick (one of his main strengths) becoming less effective for us as teams employ blockers / trail runners. For 1) at least, hopefully this spell will have helped him. It seems to me like he doesn't snipe anywhere near as much as he used to as well.

Gerry Thornley and Shane Horgan had a right back-and-forth on Second Captains about whether he can return to the player he was, worth a listen if anyone can dig it out.

(Interestingly, from the clip above, he had as many box-kicks as passes in (4 of each) in the remainder of that game. Down to the circumstances of trying to close out the game, but it was so effective, and Murray was so accurate at it for so long).

ionadnapokot · 28-07-2020 5:28pm

^
Yes his game management was brilliant & having played most of the match with 14 men. His defense was outstanding. & Still his strongest part of the game. I dont think he's an 80min man anymore.

Our half-back pairings are the most immediate area of concern to me. Sexton was on a big downward curve and poor Joey....He was the one hope of mine going into the WC. I thought he could have sparked something in that side for one last hurrah.

I cant bear listening to GT and Horgan. Horgan pro Murray?

theVersatile · 28-07-2020 6:38pm

Never heard so much bull in my life than "he's lost his power off his right side pass".

https://youtu.be/EQU_FP9q3KY

There's the Wales game in full. 23:50 video time is the clip I immediately thought of when that claim was made - say what you want about his speed or his sniping prowess but his passing has not deteriorated

28-07-2020 6:50pm

theVersatile wrote: »

Never heard so much bull in my life than "he's lost his power off his right side pass".

https://youtu.be/EQU_FP9q3KY

There's the Wales game in full. 23:50 video time is the clip I immediately thought of when that claim was made - say what you want about his speed or his sniping prowess but his passing has not deteriorated

The first pass he makes after 23:50 on the youtube clock is to his left?

theVersatile · 28-07-2020 7:37pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The first pass he makes after 23:50 on the youtube clock is to his left?

Passes OFF the right hand are generally TO the left. Important distinction.

28-07-2020 7:47pm

theVersatile wrote: »

Passes OFF the right hand are generally TO the left. Important distinction.

Sure but passing to his right is where the inconsistency has arisen?

Dunney848 · 28-07-2020 8:31pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We really need to turn England over. They've comprehensively beaten us the last two six nations and they embarrassed us in the RWC warm ups.

If we keep giving them scalps they'll turn into a bogey team despite us largely having the upper hand on them since 2004.

If we get the back 5 right and our kicking game is spotless then we can beat them. I don't think Lowe will be eligible for this tournament - instant boost to our chances if he's available.

England are a tough one to crack. If we play a slow game winding down the clock like in Twickenham this year we will lose. If we try and contain them we will crack and lose. If we play our old tactics of box kicking and one off runners we will lose.

The key will be to vary the points of attack and if we go wide take it up the 15 channel at pace and knock the defender backwards. Trying to go around them on the outside shoulder out wide doesn’t march them backwards.

We also have to completely sh1t house them off the ball and take no cheating. If we allow them to drag players into rucks and hold them on the ground we lose. If we allow them to grab jerseys off the ball we lose. A lot of it will be gamesmanship in the winning or losing to them.

ionadnapokot · 28-07-2020 8:50pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Sure but passing to his right is where the inconsistency has arisen?

Indeed. And even when he broke through in 2011 his passing to the right wasn’t up to scratch. By the 2013-14 season I feel he was nearly as comfortable off both sides and also had that power pass.
Some people might say “everything is awesome” but his pass is far from it once was. He does fire the odd one out (v Scot at WC) but as you said there are also inconsistent passes. I firmly believe he is been inhibited by a previous injury.

aloooof · 29-07-2020 8:53am

ionadnapokot wrote: »

^
Yes his game management was brilliant & having played most of the match with 14 men. His defense was outstanding. & Still his strongest part of the game. I dont think he's an 80min man anymore.

Our half-back pairings are the most immediate area of concern to me. Sexton was on a big downward curve and poor Joey....He was the one hope of mine going into the WC. I thought he could have sparked something in that side for one last hurrah.

I cant bear listening to GT and Horgan. Horgan pro Murray?

From what I remember, GT was far more positive than Horgan about Murray getting back close to level we had seen from him before.

I think Horgan disagreed with Gerry on it initially and then Thornley was like a dog with a bone, and kept bring it back up to the point it got pretty awkward. (and funny). Gonna try find it and give it another listen. (I seem to be in a minority that actually likes Thornley).

Buer · 29-07-2020 9:45am

Thornley has never been anything but positive about a long established Irish international. He's a complete sycophant when it comes to all things Ireland.

ionadnapokot · 29-07-2020 1:54pm

aloooof wrote: »

From what I remember, GT was far more positive than Horgan about Murray getting back close to level we had seen from him before.

I think Horgan disagreed with Gerry on it initially and then Thornley was like a dog with a bone, and kept bring it back up to the point it got pretty awkward. (and funny). Gonna try find it and give it another listen. (I seem to be in a minority that actually likes Thornley).

I like GT. Just in small doses and preferably in print! Yea he can insufferable when he keeps banging on about something.
I do believe he was firmly on the Connacht side of the Gatland/O'Sullivan fence. He wasnt a fan of that 2001 IRFU sub-committee (renew/got rid of Gatland). Eddie Coleman, Wiggelsworth, Philip Browne etc were all pro EO'S.
GT nose was put out of joint by this after he succeeded Van Esbeck in '99. He no longer had the same access to the coach with EO'S.
edit
He's not always objective:pac:

PMC83 · 29-07-2020 2:03pm

Buer wrote: »

Thornley has never been anything but positive about a long established Irish international. He's a complete sycophant when it comes to all things Ireland.

He didn't come off too well on the above mentioned podcast. I seem to remember Horgan asking Gerry was being a bit prickly (which he was) or something around those lines.

That said it was definitely one of the more entertaining eps!

PTH2009 · 29-07-2020 10:24pm

this new Autumn tournament will be akin to the world cup warm up games where its a chance to give fringe lads a chance

Lowe deff will get games

clsmooth · 30-07-2020 12:13pm

PMC83 wrote: »

He didn't come off too well on the above mentioned podcast. I seem to remember Horgan asking Gerry was being a bit prickly (which he was) or something around those lines.

That said it was definitely one of the more entertaining eps!

It was real head in the sand stuff by GT. Horgan said we’d seen the best of Murray and that he was unlikely to scale the heights he did from 2013-2018 again. I think that’s fair enough, doesn’t mean he won’t be an important player going forward but it’s a bit unfair to expect a 31 year old whose had a few injuries to return to that form where he was seen as one of the best 2 nines in the world as the game is continuously evolving. He could do, but to use that as a measuring stick to judge him at this stage of his career is unfair.

As an aside, for some reason I enjoy hearing Gerry continuing to refer to a 48 year old Keith Wood as Fester. A nickname probably coined around 97 by team mates still used almost 25 years later by a journalist

I imagine in 20 years he’ll be on OTB referring to James Ryan as ‘Cheese’

PTH2009 · 20-10-2020 7:11pm

So back in action this weekend,we need the BP win over Italy. If we get it we move up to the top of the table

R5 the on the 31st Oct Wales vs Scotland, Italy vs England and France vs Ireland

France, England, ourselves and Scotland have a chance to win the title. Scotland would need a miracle. England will more likely get BP win over Italy and then would be waiting on the result in the France vs Ireland match

Digifriendly · 20-10-2020 7:27pm

PTH2009 wrote: »

So back in action this weekend,we need the BP win over Italy. If we get it we move up to the top of the table

R5 the on the 31st Oct Wales vs Scotland, Italy vs England and France vs Ireland

France, England, ourselves and Scotland have a chance to win the title. Scotland would need a miracle. England will more likely get BP win over Italy and then would be waiting on the result in the France vs Ireland match

Very good summary. All to play for with a real feast on Super Saturday. Something riding on all 3 games. Wonder will fact of no crowds nullify home advantage to any degree.

PTH2009 · 20-10-2020 8:07pm

Digifriendly wrote: »

Very good summary. All to play for with a real feast on Super Saturday. Something riding on all 3 games. Wonder will fact of no crowds nullify home advantage to any degree.

Flashbacks of final day in 2015 but this time no pubs

Get over this weekend and get that BP win. A normal win not be ideal

Fairly odd championship

yerrahbah · 22-10-2020 2:31pm

Love the look of those two teams

Could be a great game

https://twitter.com/FranceRugby/status/1319203928488161286

https://twitter.com/WelshRugbyUnion/status/1319232345489145858

PTH2009 · 22-10-2020 2:32pm

yerrahbah wrote: »

Love the look of those two teams

Could be a great game

https://twitter.com/FranceRugby/status/1319203928488161286

https://twitter.com/WelshRugbyUnion/status/1319232345489145858

That's only a friendly isn't it ?

22-10-2020 2:34pm

Yeah I'm confused. I think its a friendly.

yerrahbah · 22-10-2020 2:41pm

My bad

22-10-2020 2:45pm

Still two full strength teams

sydthebeat · 22-10-2020 3:06pm

Yep it's a meaningless game

Digifriendly · 22-10-2020 10:08pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

Yep it's a meaningless game

Does this game carry any world ranking points?

sydthebeat · 22-10-2020 10:20pm

Digifriendly wrote: »

Does this game carry any world ranking points?

Its a capped game so probably yes.

However ranking points have no impact into anything this season.

2023 tiers are based on rankings from Jan 2020

The Lost Sheep · 22-10-2020 10:21pm

Digifriendly wrote: »

Does this game carry any world ranking points?

Yes. Its capped senior international so yeah

Digifriendly · 23-10-2020 4:29am

Tend to think that unlike soccer no rugby international is a meaningless game. I have seen plenty of friendly soccer internationals on TV that are literally meaningless and a waste of time for they lack a competitive edge. The same thing cannot be said of rugby internationals even if not part of a tournament.

awec · 23-10-2020 11:44am

Digifriendly wrote: »

Tend to think that unlike soccer no rugby international is a meaningless game. I have seen plenty of friendly soccer internationals on TV that are literally meaningless and a waste of time for they lack a competitive edge. The same thing cannot be said of rugby internationals even if not part of a tournament.

Rugby has lots of meaningless internationals, in the sense that there's nothing really to play for except pride. The November internationals are meaningless.

It's just that in soccer the club game is more prestigious than international games, so outside of major tournaments players will regularly drop out. UEFA/FIFA try really hard to make international football interesting by changing formats, introducing the nations league etc but there's not a whole pile of interest.

Club game is also a higher standard. Belgium and France hold the euros / world cup, but the best club teams in the world would beat them. Wouldn't happen in rugby.

You also need to account for the fact that international rugby is a closed shop, and the best teams set it up so they just play each other all the time. Easier to maintain interest. Like when we play the tier 2 team in the Autumn you see the drop off in attendance, and players being rested etc. Same thing as happens in soccer, it's just rugby only really does it once a year.

sydthebeat · 23-10-2020 11:50am

france played wales in feb... could quite possibly end up play them again in december and will be playing them again this coming Feb.
at least scotland v georgia is not a test game that happens very often.

this game on saturday is meaningless from any tangible point of view.

of course, it will be used for learnings from both camps, but thats about it.

I could just imagine how pee'ed off the french clubs would be should one of their stars pick up a long term injury during this game.

Buer · 23-10-2020 1:53pm

Gotta laugh. If someone from the soccer/GAA forum came in here and called this match meaningless or a friendly, they'd have 10 replies berating them and reminding them there's no such thing in rugby and they should be referred to as test matches!

This is a thread about the 2020 Six Nations, formerly the Five Nations

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