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Combi-boiler wiring, unusual wiring set up, need advice

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Comments

  • #52
    kramer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 305 ✭✭kramer1


    I've come across a few new boiler s where the connection s are on the outside of the boiler , in a kind of junction box that connects into the boiler , can't remember the make and model but thought it was a good work around as a lot of plumber s still don't want to or are unable to to the final connection s. It's not what they re trained for .


  • #53
    DGOBS
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 3,496 ✭✭✭DGOBS


    Yes.

    There is no shortage of urban myths out there, so I had my suspicions. When I questioned it all I was able to find was the RGI technical guide which very clearly stated that any "competent person" could carry out this most basic of electrical exercises (I now find this a little odd). However what DGOBS posted is unambiguous and from reputable sources.

    Everyday is a school day....

    The Technical Guidance Document, which is a document designed to support the regulatory IS813 standard, and it is intended for use by an RGI.
    It give practical advice on how an RGI can achieve the IS813 standard, and relies upon the definitions laid out in that standard, a competent person in this manner would be a competent person as defined in IS813, which is a registered gas installer, but I can see how this would be confusing.


  • #54
    tomoliver
    Closed Accounts Posts: 84 ✭✭tomoliver


    " gas transmission system operator"

    Is that a desk job?


  • #55
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,603 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Dardania wrote: »
    I can see the benefit of a simple rule to homeowners: boiler problem? need an RGI. No ifs, buts or ands.

    I get your point.
    But its not necessarily that black and white. In many modern homes there are a multitude of electrical devices and wiring that need to function correctly in order for the boiler to operate, generally this is all installed by the electrician. So what can happen is that an electrical issue external to the boiler (wired by an electrician) can prevent it from working. This could be a faulty stat, zone valve, time clock, bad connection or other.

    My own preference is what I am used to on site, disciplines deal with their own issues. The demarcation is simple, if it is electrical then the electrician does it after all they are the best trained to do it. Having said that I am not suggesting that anyone does anything illegal.

    In houses that I rewired I found that the plumbers had a basic understanding of wiring and they could get the boiler to "work". However they would not use the feedbacks on zone valves to improve the boiler efficiency. Also I have seen when multiple zone valves are installed that when one was energised it would back feed and unintentionally activate the others. I have also seen many of them getting very confused about earthing. I know that there are exceptions and they shouldn't all be painted with the same brush, but that is my own direct experience.


  • #56
    DGOBS
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 3,496 ✭✭✭DGOBS


    I would say I have seen many an electrician with the same issues as you describe, not using motorised valve auxiliary switches etc, and as someone who spent years teaching gas plumbing, training contained training on electrical controls for gas appliance, to obtain your gas competency you are required to learn electrical safety, learn to wire a multi zone system, and carry out a series of testing conforming to ETCI rules. So any gas certified plumber has a proven ability to carry out wiring from a 3 amp spur for controls to a gas appliance.

    As regards to earthing, yes I agree it's not for current RGI's as unfortunately we do not have an equivalent in Ireland to the Uk's Part P minor works scheme. So they should not make any attempt at carrying out any earth bonding.


  • #57
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,603 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    DGOBS wrote: »
    I would say I have seen many an electrician with the same issues as you describe, not using motorised valve auxiliary switches etc

    Agreed. Frequently when I suggest thy some RECs are anything less than perfect / cut corners other posters get very agitated. However just because some sparks are substandard does not mean that the solution is to get other disciplines / trades to take ownership of some electrical work. The reverse is also the case. Just because some RGI (very few) may do something daft does not mean that the solution is for me to start fooling around with a boiler.


  • #58
    DGOBS
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 3,496 ✭✭✭DGOBS


    It would be my option that as part of commissioning the appliance, regardless of the installer (if not the same person), all electric items and their wiring from the 3amp spur should be inspected and tested for correct operation.


  • #59
    Dardania
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,612 ✭✭✭Dardania


    DGOBS wrote: »
    It would be my option that as part of commissioning the appliance, regardless of the installer (if not the same person), all electric items and their wiring from the 3amp spur should be inspected and tested for correct operation.

    How would you see a marshalling box / wiring centre fitting into the mix. Would you interpret that it could be the de-markation between trades? And that the boiler could be commissioned if everything between the wiring centre & boiler worked okay?


  • #60
    DGOBS
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 3,496 ✭✭✭DGOBS


    I wouldn't see it as necessary or required to be honest.
    Electricians should understand what they are permitted to carry out work on or not, as should RGIs/Plumbers.

    As with most trades there is always some crossover, as far as electrical regulations state, breaking into an existing circuit to install a 3amp amount to basically DIY, (not that I agree with that, but it does)

    What the industry needs is a Part P minor works type competancy as far as I can see, so where the cross over is inevitable there is the correct degree of competence and safety.

    Remember, all qualified electricians are entitled to entry to the courses for gas (DGS) and on successful completion, registration in the gas industry.

    As for the marshalling box, it's something that could work on building sites, but what about existing installations, gas upgrades, control upgrades etc? It wouldn't be practicable.


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  • #61
    tomoliver
    Closed Accounts Posts: 84 ✭✭tomoliver


    Tuco88 wrote: »
    Some boilers may require more than just a 4 core cable, and my have other ancillary devices that need to be connected. Better just let the Electrician at it.

    If a fire is started from a loose connection in the gas boiler look at the mess you have now. REC goes to the gallows.
    I'm not familiar with gas but I've worked on lots of other systems

    It's really not that hard to demarcate

    A lead on the boiler wires into an isolator.If there's a volt-free pair a simple proprietary plug and socket system will do for that.Everything clearly labelled.


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