Combi-boiler wiring, unusual wiring set up, need advice

Tuco88 · 16-01-2019 12:03am

When I used to be involved in a bit of domestic work. All cabling work was done by the electrician and termination of the boiler. All pipe work was completed by Plumber/RGI. Id make sure to discuss the heating design at the start and make to be there when testing its first operation.

quietsailor · 16-01-2019 12:14am

Would it not make sense for the sparks to wire live, neutral and earth to a fused spur or isolater and then the plumber deals with all wiring after that? It satisfies the electrical regs and the gas regs as there is a clear point of handover.

16-01-2019 12:18am

quietsailor wrote: »

Would it not make sense for the sparks to wire live, neutral and earth to a fused spur or isolater and then the plumber deals with all wiring after that? It satisfies the electrical regs and the gas regs as there is a clear point of handover.

That’s a good option, nothing wrong with it at all.
However the debate is about what is legally permitted.

Tuco88 · 16-01-2019 12:34am

IMO never mind gas.

Take a good look at some of the efforts put into installing stoves with back boilers into heating systems... I'm no plumber but I know a vented and pressurized heating system when I see one, and more important the flow and return to the back boiler...

quietsailor · 16-01-2019 3:11pm

2011 wrote: »

That’s a good option, nothing wrong with it at all.
However the debate is about what is legally permitted.

But that would satisfy both sets of rules - the RGI is the only one working on the boiler and the sparks is the only one working on what's connected to the distribution / fuse board

16-01-2019 3:33pm

quietsailor wrote: »

But that would satisfy both sets of rules - the RGI is the only one working on the boiler and the sparks is the only one working on what's connected to the distribution / fuse board

Except that according to the RGI Technical Guide anyone can connect the boiler once they are “competent”. So it would seem than an electrician is permitted to connect the boiler.
Have a look back through the thread and the debate will become clear to you.

tomoliver · 16-01-2019 3:35pm

there should be an interface between rgi and rec

a 3-pole isolator would do the job for a 1Phase boiler

same way it operates with RECs and ESBN

16-01-2019 4:15pm

tomoliver wrote: »

there should be an interface between rgi and rec

Why not keep it really simple, by having the electricians doing all of the electrical work??? They are the best qualified for this role and the only ones that are permitted to work on the distribution board.
That is the perfect interface in my opinion.

That way the electrician / REC is 100% responsible for all electrical issues. Anything less can be problematic in situations where nobody wants to take ownership of an electrical issue.

tomoliver · 16-01-2019 4:44pm

2011 wrote: »

Why not keep it really simple, by having the electricians doing all of the electrical work??? They are the best qualified for this role and the only ones that are permitted to work on the distribution board.
That is the perfect interface in my opinion.

That way the electrician / REC is 100% responsible for all electrical issues. Anything less can be problematic in situations where nobody wants to take ownership of an electrical issue.

the REC provides a certified supply point for the boiler

control wiring and stats/timing would still be the responsibility of the REC

anything to do with switch-on and commisioning would be in the RGIs domain

16-01-2019 5:11pm

tomoliver wrote: »

control wiring and stats/timing would still be the responsibility of the REC

Not necessarily according to the CRU. Read the email linked to in my earlier post.

anything to do with switch-on and commisioning would be in the RGIs domain

Powering up and commissioning the boiler you mean? Absolutely!
Nobody suggested otherwise.

You are missing the point.
I think you need to read earlier posts in the thread to understand what is being discussed.

DGOBS · 16-01-2019 10:34pm

Below is the definition of gasworks as defined by the CER, so any person who works on a gas fitting would be required to be an RGI, this includes gas appliances, as far as I remember it was 2011 when this was also extended beyond natural gas to include LPG also, apologies can't put my hand to the most recent document a the minute.

Regulation of Gas Installers with Respect to Safety, Definition for the Scope of Gas Works

Section 13 of the 2006 Act provides for –
(1) The Commission, having consulted with such persons as it considers appropriate, and with the consent of the Minister, may by regulations designate a class or classes of works to be gas works.
(2) In this section ̳works‘ means work which is related to the installation, removal, repair or replacement of a natural gas fitting.
Section 11 of the 2006 Act defines a natural gas fitting as:
Any appliance, apparatus or other things including associated pipework and flueing which is used or designed to be used by –
(a) a domestic customer, or
(b) such class or classes of industrial customer or commercial
customers as the Commission may specify from time to time, in connection with the consumption or use of natural gas whether the appliance, apparatus or thing is the property of a natural gas undertaking or otherwise.
Once gas works are designated by the Commission, the 2006 Act makes it illegal for any person other than a registered gas installer to carry out such works6. In such instances a person who is guilty of this offence will be liable to a fine of up to €5,000 and/or a prison term of up to six months upon summary conviction or conviction on indictment which can have an associated fine of up to €15,000 and/or a prison sentence of up to three years.

Tuco88 · 16-01-2019 10:35pm

Some boilers may require more than just a 4 core cable, and my have other ancillary devices that need to be connected. Better just let the Electrician at it.

If a fire is started from a loose connection in the gas boiler look at the mess you have now. REC goes to the gallows.

DGOBS · 16-01-2019 10:45pm

29 s. 9G (3) of the Electricity Regulation Act 2009 states:
A person shall not carry out works which are Gas Works unless that person is—
(a) a registered gas installer,
(b) a gas transmission system operator carrying out its functions in accordance with the terms and conditions of the relevant licence,
(c) a gas distribution system operator carrying out its functions in accordance with the terms and conditions of the relevant licence,
(d) a gas emergency officer appointed under section 9I performing his or her duties, or
(e) a gas safety officer appointed under section 9J performing his or her functions under that section.

DGOBS · 16-01-2019 10:45pm

7.2.3 Domestic LPG
In April 2011, the CER published its final decision on the Scope of Gas Works with regard to LPG (ref. CER/11/074). This decision was subsequently transposed into regulations by means of secondary legislation, S.I. 299 of 2011, on 27th June 2011.
Section 4 (1) of these Regulations amended the definition of Gas Works with the inclusion of LPG appliances, as follows:
works which are gas works means the installation, removal, repair servicing, maintenance or replacement (or any combination of the foregoing) of a LPG fitting covered by I.S. 813 and or I.S E.N. 1949 which is (a) used or designed to be used by a Domestic Customer; or (b) which is designed to be used by a Domestic Customer in a Commercial or Industrial premises.

Massiveguganga · 16-01-2019 10:57pm

Tuco88 wrote: »

Some boilers may require more than just a 4 core cable, and my have other ancillary devices that need to be connected. Better just let the Electrician at it.

If a fire is started from a loose connection in the gas boiler look at the mess you have now. REC goes to the gallows.

Two cables normally, one supply (line, neutral and cpc) and a two core volt free.

16-01-2019 11:11pm

DGOBS wrote: »

29 s. 9G (3) of the Electricity Regulation Act 2009 states:
A person shall not carry out works which are Gas Works unless that person is—
(a) a registered gas installer,
(b) a gas transmission system operator carrying out its functions in accordance with the terms and conditions of the relevant licence,
(c) a gas distribution system operator carrying out its functions in accordance with the terms and conditions of the relevant licence,
(d) a gas emergency officer appointed under section 9I performing his or her duties, or
(e) a gas safety officer appointed under section 9J performing his or her functions under that section.

That’s far more conclusive than anything I could find. Thanks!

Dardania · 17-01-2019 8:11am

2011 wrote: »

That’s far more conclusive than anything I could find. Thanks!

So, are we settled? Removing the boiler cover is the trigger?

meercat · 17-01-2019 8:12am

Cheers DGOBS.

17-01-2019 9:03am

Dardania wrote: »

So, are we settled? Removing the boiler cover is the trigger?

Yes.

There is no shortage of urban myths out there, so I had my suspicions. When I questioned it all I was able to find was the RGI technical guide which very clearly stated that any "competent person" could carry out this most basic of electrical exercises (I now find this a little odd). However what DGOBS posted is unambiguous and from reputable sources.

Everyday is a school day....:)

Dardania · 17-01-2019 9:09am

2011 wrote: »

Yes.

There is no shortage of urban myths out there, so I had my suspicions. When I questioned it all I was able to find was the RGI technical guide which very clearly stated that any "competent person" could carry out this most basic of electrical exercises (I now find this a little odd). However what DGOBS posted is unambiguous and from reputable sources.

Everyday is a school day....:)

Every day is indeed a school day! And it is indeed good to question these things.
I can see the benefit of a simple rule to homeowners: boiler problem? need an RGI. No ifs, buts or ands.

What I reckon this underlines is the value of spec'ing a marshalling / junction box adjacent a boiler, so that the trades can proceed separately...

kramer1 · 17-01-2019 9:23am

I've come across a few new boiler s where the connection s are on the outside of the boiler , in a kind of junction box that connects into the boiler , can't remember the make and model but thought it was a good work around as a lot of plumber s still don't want to or are unable to to the final connection s. It's not what they re trained for .

DGOBS · 17-01-2019 9:33am

Yes.

There is no shortage of urban myths out there, so I had my suspicions. When I questioned it all I was able to find was the RGI technical guide which very clearly stated that any "competent person" could carry out this most basic of electrical exercises (I now find this a little odd). However what DGOBS posted is unambiguous and from reputable sources.

Everyday is a school day....

The Technical Guidance Document, which is a document designed to support the regulatory IS813 standard, and it is intended for use by an RGI.
It give practical advice on how an RGI can achieve the IS813 standard, and relies upon the definitions laid out in that standard, a competent person in this manner would be a competent person as defined in IS813, which is a registered gas installer, but I can see how this would be confusing.

tomoliver · 17-01-2019 9:35am

" gas transmission system operator"

Is that a desk job?

17-01-2019 9:50am

Dardania wrote: »

I can see the benefit of a simple rule to homeowners: boiler problem? need an RGI. No ifs, buts or ands.

I get your point.
But its not necessarily that black and white. In many modern homes there are a multitude of electrical devices and wiring that need to function correctly in order for the boiler to operate, generally this is all installed by the electrician. So what can happen is that an electrical issue external to the boiler (wired by an electrician) can prevent it from working. This could be a faulty stat, zone valve, time clock, bad connection or other.

My own preference is what I am used to on site, disciplines deal with their own issues. The demarcation is simple, if it is electrical then the electrician does it after all they are the best trained to do it. Having said that I am not suggesting that anyone does anything illegal.

In houses that I rewired I found that the plumbers had a basic understanding of wiring and they could get the boiler to "work". However they would not use the feedbacks on zone valves to improve the boiler efficiency. Also I have seen when multiple zone valves are installed that when one was energised it would back feed and unintentionally activate the others. I have also seen many of them getting very confused about earthing. I know that there are exceptions and they shouldn't all be painted with the same brush, but that is my own direct experience.

DGOBS · 17-01-2019 10:10am

I would say I have seen many an electrician with the same issues as you describe, not using motorised valve auxiliary switches etc, and as someone who spent years teaching gas plumbing, training contained training on electrical controls for gas appliance, to obtain your gas competency you are required to learn electrical safety, learn to wire a multi zone system, and carry out a series of testing conforming to ETCI rules. So any gas certified plumber has a proven ability to carry out wiring from a 3 amp spur for controls to a gas appliance.

As regards to earthing, yes I agree it's not for current RGI's as unfortunately we do not have an equivalent in Ireland to the Uk's Part P minor works scheme. So they should not make any attempt at carrying out any earth bonding.

17-01-2019 10:17am

DGOBS wrote: »

I would say I have seen many an electrician with the same issues as you describe, not using motorised valve auxiliary switches etc

Agreed. Frequently when I suggest thy some RECs are anything less than perfect / cut corners other posters get very agitated. However just because some sparks are substandard does not mean that the solution is to get other disciplines / trades to take ownership of some electrical work. The reverse is also the case. Just because some RGI (very few) may do something daft does not mean that the solution is for me to start fooling around with a boiler.

DGOBS · 17-01-2019 11:29am

It would be my option that as part of commissioning the appliance, regardless of the installer (if not the same person), all electric items and their wiring from the 3amp spur should be inspected and tested for correct operation.

Dardania · 17-01-2019 11:36am

DGOBS wrote: »

It would be my option that as part of commissioning the appliance, regardless of the installer (if not the same person), all electric items and their wiring from the 3amp spur should be inspected and tested for correct operation.

How would you see a marshalling box / wiring centre fitting into the mix. Would you interpret that it could be the de-markation between trades? And that the boiler could be commissioned if everything between the wiring centre & boiler worked okay?

DGOBS · 17-01-2019 12:00pm

I wouldn't see it as necessary or required to be honest.
Electricians should understand what they are permitted to carry out work on or not, as should RGIs/Plumbers.

As with most trades there is always some crossover, as far as electrical regulations state, breaking into an existing circuit to install a 3amp amount to basically DIY, (not that I agree with that, but it does)

What the industry needs is a Part P minor works type competancy as far as I can see, so where the cross over is inevitable there is the correct degree of competence and safety.

Remember, all qualified electricians are entitled to entry to the courses for gas (DGS) and on successful completion, registration in the gas industry.

As for the marshalling box, it's something that could work on building sites, but what about existing installations, gas upgrades, control upgrades etc? It wouldn't be practicable.

tomoliver · 17-01-2019 2:45pm

Tuco88 wrote: »

Some boilers may require more than just a 4 core cable, and my have other ancillary devices that need to be connected. Better just let the Electrician at it.

If a fire is started from a loose connection in the gas boiler look at the mess you have now. REC goes to the gallows.

I'm not familiar with gas but I've worked on lots of other systems

It's really not that hard to demarcate

A lead on the boiler wires into an isolator.If there's a volt-free pair a simple proprietary plug and socket system will do for that.Everything clearly labelled.

Combi-boiler wiring, unusual wiring set up, need advice

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