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Apartments - Fire Issues

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  • 18-01-2019 9:42am
    #1
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,934 ✭✭✭


    Hi all,

    I'm looking at an apartment in Dublin. It would suit me perfectly. However I'm really concerned that it could end up as one of those blocks on the news and residents are looking at bills of €10K to fix fire safety issues.

    My question is basically, is there anyway to get a fire safety survey (?) beforehand? It was built in 2008 so I'm fearing it's a quick Celtic Tiger apt and the issue is likely?


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    #2
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,513 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Daith wrote: »
    Hi all,

    I'm looking at an apartment in Dublin. It would suit me perfectly. However I'm really concerned that it could end up as one of those blocks on the news and residents are looking at bills of €10K to fix fire safety issues.

    My question is basically, is there anyway to get a fire safety survey (?) beforehand? It was built in 2008 so I'm fearing it's a quick Celtic Tiger apt and the issue is likely?

    Not really without opening up works in and around your apartment. You would also need t carry out opening up / destructive works in the common areas to see if cavity barriers have been installed, fire stopping at top of walls etc

    You could ask the Management Company if a Fire Safety assessment has been carried out.


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    #3
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,934 ✭✭✭Daith


    kceire wrote: »
    Not really without opening up works in and around your apartment. You would also need t carry out opening up / destructive works in the common areas to see if cavity barriers have been installed, fire stopping at top of walls etc

    You could ask the Management Company if a Fire Safety assessment has been carried out.

    Thanks for that. It's a far bit annoying.


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    #4
    stevek93
    Registered Users Posts: 3,088 ✭✭✭stevek93


    OP thank you for posting this, this is my main concern buying an apartment in Ireland. For this reason I will never buy an apartment here. I remember a friends neighbour was getting a new kitchen in their newly built home about 15 years ago. The installer quickly found out the wall between the neighbouring dwelling was nothing more than plaster board. The whole complex was swiftly evacuated the builder was brought to court but no charges were made, typical government protecting builders and bankers.


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    #5
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    stevek93 wrote: »
    OP thank you for posting this, this is my main concern buying an apartment in Ireland. For this reason I will never buy an apartment here. I remember a friends neighbour was getting a new kitchen in their newly built home about 15 years ago. The builder quickly found out the wall between the neighbouring dwelling was nothing more than plaster board. The whole complex was swiftly evacuated.

    This drives me nuts. Where are the criminal cases?


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    #6
    shesty
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,894 Mod ✭✭✭✭shesty


    I wonder could you enquire of the local council is there a fire cert in place?Checking that yourself out would cause damage to the property, so obviously you won't be allowed do it.
    I suppose the phrase "caveat emptor" would really apply here.
    There are none unfortunately Franz....


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    #7
    Phileas Frog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 946 ✭✭✭Phileas Frog


    stevek93 wrote: »
    The whole complex was swiftly evacuated the builder was brought to court but no charges were made, typical government protecting builders and bankers.

    How was he brought to court without any charges? What has the government got to do with anything?


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    #8
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    stevek93 wrote: »
    OP thank you for posting this, this is my main concern buying an apartment in Ireland. For this reason I will never buy an apartment here. I remember a friends neighbour was getting a new kitchen in their newly built home about 15 years ago. The installer quickly found out the wall between the neighbouring dwelling was nothing more than plaster board. The whole complex was swiftly evacuated the builder was brought to court but no charges were made, typical government protecting builders and bankers.

    It occurs in houses too. Look at Millfield Manor.


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    #9
    TheBoyConor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    kceire wrote: »
    Not really without opening up works in and around your apartment. You would also need t carry out opening up / destructive works in the common areas to see if cavity barriers have been installed, fire stopping at top of walls etc

    You could ask the Management Company if a Fire Safety assessment has been carried out.

    In this day and age is destructive, invasive and expensive opening up still the done thing? Are there not any technologies such as some kind of radar or ultrasound that see what is behind the surface without breaking open walls and ceilings.

    At the least I'm sure that a borescope could be used.


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    #10
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,513 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    stevek93 wrote: »
    OP thank you for posting this, this is my main concern buying an apartment in Ireland. For this reason I will never buy an apartment here. I remember a friends neighbour was getting a new kitchen in their newly built home about 15 years ago. The installer quickly found out the wall between the neighbouring dwelling was nothing more than plaster board. The whole complex was swiftly evacuated the builder was brought to court but no charges were made, typical government protecting builders and bankers.

    That's very strange. If the builder is brought to court, it would be unusual for the Government to be involved. Also, there should be a news article about it, can you give the name of the place.

    shesty wrote: »
    I wonder could you enquire of the local council is there a fire cert in place?Checking that yourself out would cause damage to the property, so obviously you won't be allowed do it.
    I suppose the phrase "caveat emptor" would really apply here.
    There are none unfortunately Franz....

    Built in 2008, there will be a Fire Cert in place, I guarantee that. But that doesn't mean its fire safe as the supervising consultants still need to certify the building and works. If they missed anything, the FSC is nothing more than piece of paper. Its like a Planning Permission, you get permission to build in accordance with the plans submitted. If the developer builds it differently, then there's a breach.
    Phileas Frog wrote: »
    How was he brought to court without any charges? What has the government got to do with anything?

    exactly, seems more like a government rant tbh.
    robp wrote: »
    It occurs in houses too. Look at Millfield Manor.

    Also true. Biggest issue with houses is the party wall detail and the top of the party wall, facia etc

    Timber frame construction has stiffened up lately with increased fire protection and revisions to IS440 in 2017.

    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    In this day and age is destructive, invasive and expensive opening up still the done thing? Are there not any technologies such as some kind of radar or ultrasound that see what is behind the surface without breaking open walls and ceilings.

    At the least I'm sure that a borescope could be used.

    Radar etc cannot be trusted and I wouldn't sign off on a building using radar or ultrasonic technologies without some form of cavet inserted.

    Borescope's are used daily and they give an indication in specific areas if fire stopping is in place and you can only assume if its correct in a random sample of places then its correct everywhere, but the right way to go would be to fully inspect every location.


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    #11
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,934 ✭✭✭Daith


    I've a feeling the answer is really

    "No, you can't be sure"?


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    #12
    TheBoyConor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    kciere, I know what you mean. You can't be sure unless you see everywhere and indirect methods of observation can be misleading sometimes. I know myself from use of ground penetrating radar that the results can sometimes not make sense with what actually turns out to be there.

    Surely a comprehensive schedule of borescope observations throughout a building could identify whether the right detailing has been used.

    If full opening up is to be done everywhere you'd be nearly ripping the building apart and doing fairly severe and expensive damage in the process.

    Surely in 2019 there is technologies available for high quality long distance or robotic probe boroscopy.

    As an example of a close friend of mine works in sewer and watermain inspection and he has shown me the kit for his job. The cababilities of it are amazing, robotic device that can make connections to service pipes from within the watermain being one of them. Before you would have required a dig out at each connection.


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