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markodaly wrote: »

Not overnight, but the trend is certainly down and getting lower.
https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/Ireland/Student_teacher_ratio_primary_school/

(this link says the PTR is more like 16)
Ironically, the Haddington Road agreement has very much facilitated this downward trend as more teachers can be hired. But the Unions sure as hell wont tell ya that!





Yes, but Pupil Teacher ratios going down even the if population is going up, thus the point is null.



No, an actual measure would be GNP, as using GDP for any of Ireland's economic benchmarks is notoriously skewed given the way we have structured our economy and the leprechaun economic statistics that can come from it.





Ah here, copying and pasting stats from a Union website will convince no one but the converted. As mentioned GDP figures are totally skewed in the Irish context.

Maybe a better measurement would be per $ spend per pupil?
https://data.oecd.org/eduresource/education-spending.htm

Interestingly, Finland and Denmark et all, spend as much on Early Childhood education per pupil as Ireland does normally.

By the way, I do not dismiss the idea that we should be spending more on education, we should. But I think for the next 5-10 years any large increases should be going to facilities, permanency, pupil-teacher ratio's than teacher wages, as that is what the ASTI and others mean when spending more on education. Take home pay for teachers, who are already one of the best paid in the OECD.





Possibly, yet 78% of those teachers in the survey referenced by the OP stated that the LC is not up to scratch, so it clearly needs to be reformed. The status quo is certainly a non runner.



Education spending should be going to this group first and foremost in my opinion. Even if the PTR stayed the same, and teachers got no pay increase for 5 years, but if the government promised to pour extra hundreds of millions to the early learning sector each year then that is something many people and parents could get behind.

Every child in Ireland should be able to avail full-time 2-5 full time top quality education led by University trained and qualifed educators like the do in Finland.
I am sure you agree, to a point but when push comes to shove and new funds are being hunted are you and your fellow teachers going to let it go to the early learning sector? I doubt it.

Any educational increase in funding goes to the loudest voices, that is the Unions that are already established and they certainly do not want to share the pie, even though it could dramaticly benefit the future of Irish educational attainment.




Maybe or perhaps just fund Early Learning Centres like they do in other countries. Finish formal education does not start till they are 7 so I am not sure asking an Irish 2 or 3 year old to go to a primary school is the answer. It suits some of course, to subsume EL education to their own sphere of influence, but other countries don't do this way and for a reason.




Yes and no. I certainly do not underestimate the 'me fein' culture in Ireland. We are gas in a way. Compassionate and caring yet, we are totally out for ourselves.
Unions are 100% endemic in this but this is just an Irish trait imo.

Just look at child allowance for example. This should be taken away from everyone and put into Early Learning. There is hundreds of millions there to be used, and not be spent down the bookies. Yet, if one did that there would be an uproar.

Tell me, do Finish parents get child allowance? I think not. Do the unemployed get a Christmas bonus? Do OAP's get min €5 euro a year extra no questions asked?

We have the money in Ireland, its just we spend it in a very individualistic inefficient way for votes.
Everyone out for themselves and the teaching profession is just another example of this.





I am sorry but are Irish teachers not some of the best paid in the OECD?
Do they not get more on average than say those in Finland?
https://data.oecd.org/eduresource/teachers-salaries.htm

Its a cute saying but devoid of reality and actually cements my entire point of this post, that Irish teachers when all said and done are more interested in take-home pay than anything else.



I would agree 100%, same the Unions dont hold the same view. Put simply, lower PTR certainly makes working conditions better, do they not?

evolving_doors wrote: »

In fairness there's thousands of history and geography teachers who want to do the course too! What are other colleges doing to increase the math, woodwork, home ec intake?

All Colleges just supply what students demand.

June Fresh Amputee wrote: »

I don't really care what Hibernia do - just pointing out that the fact they are pumping out graduates means zilch in terms of the critical shortage of teachers in Dublin. There is some change to the allocation of places through PAC for next year that will prioritise subjects I think.

June Fresh Amputee wrote: »

So where are they?

June Fresh Amputee wrote: »

Not in Dublin it seems. I've never met a Maths or language Hibernia grad. And only Biology teachers for Science.

evolving_doors wrote: »

I don't know where the students go but I presume if you are in Dublin then the chances of meeting a TCD or DCu maths grad are higher whereas Hibernia is a National university. So, in the Same vein, I've haven't come across a TCD or DCU maths Grad in Dublin in the last 8 years either (UCD and MAynooth yes)!!! But yet TCD and DCU are 'pumping out' other graduates ( so equally I could claim TCD or DCU 'dont give a 541t').





I have.... but not in Dublin!

It's a demand problem, and students aren't demanding to do maths teaching or Home-ec teaching (and who'd blame them). Tinkering around with the PAC system will do diddly. Actualy tinkering around in any shape or form by any college will do diddly to attract grads who can make a packet elsewhere.