A license question not in the FAQs

brendan77272 · 14-01-2019 10:58pm #1

Hi, I originally asked this question on another website but not sure if the site owner looks at it much:

Regarding the medical check on the certificate application form; I am in the process of filling out the form as I would like to purchase a shotgun for clay pigeon shooting. I am a little concerned with the medial history check, though. I have been on antidepressants for a couple of years (nothing major at all, no instability - just wasn't feeling on top of my game), but I'm concerned that my application will be rejected if I check 'yes' to the part concerned with having had an issue that may affect my ability to safely possess a firearm. I notice the obvious possibility of subjective interpretation in the way this section of the form is phrased. I certainly know for a fact that I have never suffered from anything that would affect my ability to safely possess a firearm, but if I check 'no', is this 'wrong' (legally as opposed to morally). I'm just concerned that the State may have a blanket policy when it comes to mental health and gun ownership and am temped to check 'no' to circumvent any potential unnecessary obstacles. Your wisdom and guidance would be appreciated!

cookimonster · 15-01-2019 12:16am

Have a read of-
'The Garda Commissioner's Guidelines as to
the Practical Application and Operation of
the Firearms Acts, 1925-2009.'

ANNEX B: MEDICAL ENQUIRIES AND REFEREES CONSENT TO MEDICAL ENQUIRIES
The issue of an applicant's medical fitness to hold a firearm certificate is a key consideration for the Garda Siochana, but it must be emphasised that this will not be a concern with regard to the vast majority of firearms licence holders. Approaches to an applicant's general practitioner or other medical practitioner should not be made as a matter of routine but are at the discretion of the superintendent or chief superintendent considering the application. It is an offence under section 3A of the Firearms Act, 1925 as amended, for a person to knowingly give false or misleading information in relation to an application for a firearms certificate.
. This would apply to any false statement given when answering medical questions on the application form. It must be emphasised that it is the responsibility of the applicant to provide all relevant medical reports if requested to do so by an issuing superintendent or chief superintendent carrying out their functions under this section.
The issuing superintendent or chief superintendent of the Garda Siochana may seek the advice of the Garda Siochana Medical Officer in cases where the medical information supplied is difficult to understand, or where its significance in terms of the possession of firearms is unclear. Any final decision as to the applicant's fitness, whether on medical or other grounds, should be taken by the properly authorised officer in the usual way.
The applicant's consent is not limited by time. It is therefore open to the Garda Siochana to approach the applicant's general practitioner or other medical professional at any time during the lifetime of the certificate if there are any concerns about the applicant's continued fitness to possess firearms.

ANNEX A: PERSONS DISENTITLED TO HOLD A
FIREARM

(c) Any person of unsound mind -
This is a very sensitive issue and it is not possible to advise on every potential scenario which may arise in a decision making process. Generally, issuing persons should be alert to cases in which a general practitioner's report reveals that an applicant has exhibited, or is exhibiting, signs of depression, suicidal tendencies, longstanding or intermittent periods of either emotional instability or unpredictable behavior. Issuing persons should also be alert to any of these signs exhibited by existing certificate holders.
This would include persons who had been detained under the civil powers of the Mental Health Acts on the basis of their behaviour posing a risk to the public. It should be remembered that because a person has received treatment in the past for certain illnesses or conditions, such as depression or stress, it does not automatically follow they are unfit to possess a firearm. It is simply one of the factors to be considered with all other evidence relating to the applicant's character and history. In such cases, account should be taken of the latest medical opinion.

Zxthinger · 15-01-2019 12:55am

Don't over think it. If you have not have a condition that might affect your ability to safely own/handle/use a firearm then that's that, answer no and get on with the form.
Anti depressants are given out to anybody these days..

meathstevie · 15-01-2019 5:28am

I would err on the side of caution and disclose the relevant information accompanied by a letter from the treating doctor outlining why he or she believes why there is no problem in relation to firearms ownership.

Chiparus · 15-01-2019 5:51am

brendan77272 wrote: »

Hi, I originally asked this question on another website but not sure if the site owner looks at it much:

Regarding the medical check on the certificate application form; I am in the process of filling out the form as I would like to purchase a shotgun for clay pigeon shooting. I am a little concerned with the medial history check, though. I have been on antidepressants for a couple of years (nothing major at all, no instability - just wasn't feeling on top of my game), but I'm concerned that my application will be rejected if I check 'yes' to the part concerned with having had an issue that may affect my ability to safely possess a firearm. I notice the obvious possibility of subjective interpretation in the way this section of the form is phrased. I certainly know for a fact that I have never suffered from anything that would affect my ability to safely possess a firearm, but if I check 'no', is this 'wrong' (legally as opposed to morally). I'm just concerned that the State may have a blanket policy when it comes to mental health and gun ownership and am temped to check 'no' to circumvent any potential unnecessary obstacles. Your wisdom and guidance would be appreciated!

Then you check "no" .
You have not suffered suicidal ideation or no history of psychosis , then there is no reason to.

garv123 · 15-01-2019 9:52am

There's a real stigma about people taking medication for things such as feeling down/depression etc..
As one doctor said, if you have a headache you take paracetamol.. so if you're feeling down you do the same thing.

Your dealing with the issue which means you're a lot more capable than someone who applies for a firearm without dealing with the issue.

meathstevie · 16-01-2019 12:07am

garv123 wrote: »

There's a real stigma about people taking medication for things such as feeling down/depression etc..
As one doctor said, if you have a headache you take paracetamol.. so if you're feeling down you do the same thing.

Your dealing with the issue which means you're a lot more capable than someone who applies for a firearm without dealing with the issue.

Above is exactly why I would disclose the facts. Yes there's a potential problem but it has been or is being dealt with.

Take the example of someone with an addiction problem; Indeed Superintendent, I am an alcoholic but I have been going to AA meetings and have been helped along by my doctor and as a result I haven't touched a drop in 18 years. Other than that I've nothing to tell you. How would that look compared to a Garda knowing there was some issue in the past and deciding to double check with your doctor and finding out that way ? All of a sudden an old solved problem becomes a live problem.

Chiparus · 16-01-2019 12:36am

meathstevie wrote: »

Above is exactly why I would disclose the facts. Yes there's a potential problem but it has been or is being dealt with.

Take the example of someone with an addiction problem; Indeed Superintendent, I am an alcoholic but I have been going to AA meetings and have been helped along by my doctor and as a result I haven't touched a drop in 18 years. Other than that I've nothing to tell you. How would that look compared to a Garda knowing there was some issue in the past and deciding to double check with your doctor and finding out that way ? All of a sudden an old solved problem becomes a live problem.

Does this affect your ability to own a firearm ? The answer is no.

If you suffer from mild depression , does it affect your ability to own or operate a firearm?

alanmc · 16-01-2019 12:55am

Chiparus wrote: »

Does this affect your ability to own a firearm ? The answer is no.

If you suffer from mild depression , does it affect your ability to own or operate a firearm?

Disclosing it is not the same as ticking yes. I ticked 'no' on my application, yet still enclosed some blurb about my medical history ... which is substantial. The Gardai did feel the need to contact my GP .. which was grand with me. But I felt obliged to disclose all information.

If I were you OP, I'd preempt things and get a letter from my GP with his/her endorsement and enclose this with my application. You've nothing to hide.

Forgot to add, in your situation I'd tick No as well. Your medical position should not preclude you from operating a firearm safely.

Grizzly 45 · 16-01-2019 4:44am

Just make sure your anti-depressants arent lithium based. Lithium antidepressants are the one major unaddressed elephant in the room in the history of mass shootings in the US.

freddieot · 16-01-2019 8:14am

Ask your GP first. Show him the question and ask his professional advice. He is the one that is medically qualified so best to get that opinion from the start. It will also stand to you if there are issues later with the application.

If he says that there is nothing in his medical opinion that he would comment on or is aware of based on your medical record and \ or his knowledge of you as a patient that might be a reason for you not to have firearm then you have the answer right there - no need for you to say anything - Tick NO. Check with him that he will put it in writing if you need it confirmed later etc.

Not everyone that sneezes has pneumonia and not everyone that has been a bit depressed at some point in life and had the good sense to get it taken care of, has major mental health issues.

However, obviously, if he does think that there is anything in your history that might make owning a firearm a bad idea or best avoided, or anything he advises you to disclose then you need to tick YES.

tac foley · 16-01-2019 11:27am

I don't know of anybody who has not been depressed to a certain extent at some time or the other - me included. It has, however, never been like Churchill's 'black dog', just a bit of the ould gloom and despondency. It's hard to walk around with a ****-eating smile on your face all the time these days, unless, of course, you are on something that's a lot more worrisome to the authorities than a mild anti-depressant....

BattleCorp · 16-01-2019 12:03pm

freddieot wrote: »

Ask your GP first. Show him the question and ask his professional advice. He is the one that is medically qualified so best to get that opinion from the start. It will also stand to you if there are issues later with the application.

If he says that there is nothing in his medical opinion that he would comment on or is aware of based on your medical record and \ or his knowledge of you as a patient that might be a reason for you not to have firearm then you have the answer right there - no need for you to say anything - Tick NO. Check with him that he will put it in writing if you need it confirmed later etc.

However, obviously, if he does think that there is anything in your history that might make owning a firearm a bad idea or best avoided, or anything he advises you to disclose then you need to tick YES.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Brilliant answer.

cookimonster · 16-01-2019 2:24pm

I would aggree with freddieot as the best course of action to take.

As a by the by.....military personnel are made up of a cross section of society with all the issues and troubles of the ordinary joe. If a service person wishes to do harm to themselves or others they have the same opportunities as any civilian, which tend to be opportunist in its nature, using methods easily available or familiar to themselves. Many a poor unfortunate military soul has taken their life in the same manner as countless civilians but given the environment they work in service personnel have also used service weapons to end their lives.
It is generally accepted that military personnel suffering with mental health issues including depression, anxiety and stress who have been diagnosed and are receiving treatment whether medicinal or with therapy are removed from armed duties at the minimum and may be removed from any duty if deemed a necessary for their own sake or the safety of others.

Grizzly 45 · 17-01-2019 8:08pm

Gotta ask tho...Will a GP be willing to put it on paper and be willing to carry the can jointly with the Super if someone's dog gets off the leash? After all, they are both "professionals" and are supposed to be making weighty judgement calls well above us mere mortals ability as to our welfare?:(

meathstevie · 17-01-2019 9:53pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Gotta ask tho...Will a GP be willing to put it on paper and be willing to carry the can jointly with the Super if someone's dog gets off the leash? After all, they are both "professionals" and are supposed to be making weighty judgement calls well above us mere mortals ability as to our welfare?:(

Since they're willing to sign off on all sorts of certifications from lorry drivers to airline pilots I can't see there being much of an issue for a firearms application. At the end of the day the doctor does nothing but apply his/her knowledge and expertise to the best of their ability.

Grizzly 45 · 18-01-2019 2:50pm

True enough, but it is becoming an issue in the UK apparently for shooters to find a doc who will sign off on them. So I wouldn't be surprised if the contaigen eventually spreads to over here.In that respect we are lucky,we dont need a medical pro signing off on us....Yet!

Zxthinger · 18-01-2019 8:53pm

Ask your GP nothing. Most likely he knows nothing about the shooting sport if eire and his understanding is based on images of gun shot wounds from his books and from sat night at the pictures.

Ask yourself this. Are you going to do something stupid and bring disrepute to the whole of the Irish shooting community and your family.

Of course your not.

Chiparus · 18-01-2019 11:13pm

Zxthinger wrote: »

Ask your GP nothing. Most likely he knows nothing about the shooting sport if eire and his understanding is based on images of gun shot wounds from his books and from sat night at the pictures.

Ask yourself this. Are you going to do something stupid and bring disrepute to the whole of the Irish shooting community and your family.

Of course your not.

You would be suprised how many of us medics shoot.

cookimonster · 19-01-2019 12:00am

Zxthinger wrote: »

Ask your GP nothing. Most likely he knows nothing about the shooting sport if eire and his understanding is based on images of gun shot wounds from his books and from sat night at the pictures.

Ask yourself this. Are you going to do something stupid and bring disrepute to the whole of the Irish shooting community and your family.

Of course your not.

Schizophrenia is a mental disorder characterized by abnormal behavior, strange speech and a decreased ability to understand reality. Other symptoms include false beliefs, unclear or confused thinking, hearing voices that do not exist, reduced social engagement and emotional expression and lack of motivation.

Probably an old and out dated explanation of just one mental health issue...

....but if there is still a modicum of fact attached to it, then someone suffering such symptoms etc are in no fit state to answer such a searching question!

Zxthinger · 19-01-2019 12:15am

cookimonster wrote: »

Schizophrenia is a mental disorder characterized by abnormal behavior, strange speech and a decreased ability to understand reality. Other symptoms include false beliefs, unclear or confused thinking, hearing voices that do not exist, reduced social engagement and emotional expression and lack of motivation.

Probably an old and out dated explanation of just one mental health issue...

....but if there is still a modicum of fact attached to it, then someone suffering such symptoms etc are in no fit state to answer such a searching question!

Here's what the OP said
"nothing major at all, no instability - just wasn't feeling on top of my game"
Ffs storm in tea cup.
We are all a bit crazy, if we weren't we'd all be the same.

cookimonster · 19-01-2019 2:16am

'have been on antidepressants for a couple of years (nothing major at all, no instability - just wasn't feeling on top of my game)"

'....have been on antidepressants for a couple of years.....'

I apologise in advance to the OP if I picked this up wrong and certainly this is not the place for them to discuss in detail their medical history past and present.
This statement which I have repeated twice is ambiguous, and could lead to the reader interpreting that the OP 'as having been on antidepressants for a couple of years' past tense or 'having been on antidepressants for a couple of years' present tense.

My partner works within the HSE were the use of medicines are screened and has repeatedly commented on the increase of pharmaceuticals prescribed for mental health over the past two decades and in particular to older teenagers and young adults.
It is now accepted, unfortunately, that it is easier to prescribe then to cure many mental health issues and in more recent times the slightest issue in a younger persons life is considered a major issue that needs clinical help were previously these issues where considered part of your life experince. By no means am I dismissing mental health issues lightly as they are a real and tangible illness.

But I must repeat my agreement with a previous post and advise the OP to chat with their doctor and if necessary get a secound opinion.

Neither I or any one else can give advice as to this persons mental health and suitability to own a firearm, but we can inform them as to the correct procedure, relevant information and practical advice.

Grizzly 45 · 19-01-2019 1:58pm

cookimonster wrote: »

[

My partner works within the HSE were the use of medicines are screened and has repeatedly commented on the increase of pharmaceuticals prescribed for mental health over the past two decades and in particular to older teenagers and young adults.
It is now accepted, unfortunately, that it is easier to prescribe than to cure many mental health issues and in more recent times the slightest issue in a younger person life is considered a major issue that needs clinical help were previously these issues were considered part of your life experience.

The American methodology of mental care is starting to make inroads here now. Not good!! Would love to know id any of the really strong stuff being doled out here is Lithium based?? Coming off that kind of meds, or not taking it properly apparently has a real nasty side effect of literally uncontrollable rages in some people. Like Huberty who shot up the Mc Donalds in San Diego,and knew his dog was getting out of control.He even pleaded to be institutionalised. We could be in for intresting times here too friends.

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