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Dublin bus - what routes should they bring back?
Comments
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The days of the concerts at Marlay Park are not representative of the service in any way, shape or form - they caused major delays to routes due to heavy traffic and inconvenience to local residents too due to the massive crowds attending them. Bus routes were also curtailed due to Garda closing roads unannounced.
Im surprised the residents don't object I'd imagine they'd attract a crowd of drunken idiots into a usually a quiet suburban neighbourhood. Its not like they bought a house near Croke Park or Landsdowne Road and know what they're getting themselves in for.0 -
Wasn't the orginal plan for the 84 during network direct to run it every 30 minutes between Newcastle and Cherrywood only which was a logical idea. But a local councillor demanded that the service be retained as far as UCD. Then after the 45 was withdrawn it was completely rerouted away from UCD anyway.
It was a couple of very young councillors from Greystones - one of whom is now the minister for health. If implemented properly, along with the 184, it would have given Greystones a bus every 15 minutes, so they really didn't do their constituents any favours.
It would probably make more sense to run the 84 between Newcastle and Bray Station every 30 minutes, with the 84a continuing to run between Bray and Blackrock/St. Vincent's (via Cherrywood Luas) at peak times.0 -
It was a couple of very young councillors from Greystones - one of whom is now the minister for health. If implemented properly, along with the 184, it would have given Greystones a bus every 15 minutes, so they really didn't do their constituents any favours.
It would probably make more sense to run the 84 between Newcastle and Bray Station every 30 minutes, with the 84a continuing to run between Bray and Blackrock/St. Vincent's (via Cherrywood Luas) at peak times.
Running the 84 only to Bray wouldn't be good as then Greystones/Bray wouldn't have a direct frequent connection to the Luas in order to get to Sandyford or Dundrum. A peak only 84a wouldn't surpass. I would actually consider reintroducing the 45 as a peak only service between Bray Dart Station and the City Centre with a similar timetable to most recent version of the 8 in order to serve the schools.0 -
There isn't a hope in hell that the 8 will return - the numbers just aren't there to justify it. The market isn't there to justify it either - most people using the bus service beyond Dun Laoghaire have always been pensioners since the DART arrived.
First off, the issue with the 8 was that it was a duplicate of the DART entirely in its original alignment before being scrapped in 2001 and mostly when it was reinstated back in 2005.
Second off, when it was reinstated, it was a skeleton of its former self from a timetable perspective with only a hand full of journeys Monday to Friday and no weekend service. Naturally, very few people with bother with it. In this sense, it appeared to be a Machiavellian attempt to see the route fail so that they could ultimately pull the plug on it.
Therefore, the sensible thing to do would have been to experiment with a completely realigned version of the 8 route along the N11 thereby merging it with the existing 7D route and running it hourly Monday to Sunday.Given that the DART will increase frequency to every 10 minutes I can see even less justification for the service.
I will once again reiterate the point that the DART is an excellent service. However, it isn't much use for someone wishing to go to UCD, Stillorgan or Donnybrook let alone places even further away such as Sandyford, Dundrum or Tallaght.
Also, until the unions loose their hold over Irish Rail, I will believe the 10 minutely frequency when I see it.The bus resources are quite rightly focussed on the 7 and 7a, which do have significant usage either side of Dun Laoghaire
Nobody is saying that they shouldn't be. Of course, the areas along the 7 and 7A routes are more in need of a better level of service. That's a given. The problem with this logic is that trying to do more with existing resources is obviously not going to work.0 -
patrickbrophy18 wrote: »Therefore, the sensible thing to do would have been to experiment with a completely realigned version of the 8 route along the N11 thereby merging it with the existing 7D route and running it hourly Monday to Sunday.
I will once again reiterate the point that the DART is an excellent service. However, it isn't much use for someone wishing to go to UCD, Stillorgan or Donnybrook let alone places even further away such as Sandyford, Dundrum or Tallaght.
You could get the Dart to DL and then 46A up to UCD or Donnybrook or a 75 to Dundrum or Tallaght. The bus connects plan will mean people may have to switch modes of transport from time to time. Dalkey only has a population of 8,000 so its not exactly huge and needs bus services going here there and everywhere. A bus service between Dalkey and Town on the N11 would duplicate many routes so it would be a waste of resources.0 -
16A past the Nutgrove in Rathfarnham.
The place is 20 times busier now than it was when they withdrew the service a few years back.0 -
You could get the Dart to DL and then 46A up to UCD or Donnybrook or a 75 to Dundrum or Tallaght.
The issue with this logic is that a car can do many of these journeys in a fraction of the time:- 75: Getting a DART to Dun Laoghaire and changing for the 75 to Dundrum could take up to 50 minutes. By car, it's usually around 20 minutes. If Tallaght is the end point, it would take 2 hours by public transport versus only 30 minutes by car.
- 46A: Taking the DART to Dun Laoghaire and then a 46A to UCD could take up to 45 minutes while doing so by car is only 20 minutes.
The bus connects plan will mean people may have to switch modes of transport from time to time.
I think the phrase "from time to time" should be the operative word here. Unfortunately, staggered journeys which require one or possibly two changes are incredibly inconvenient for those needing to be in work early in the morning.
For example, when I was working in IBM in Damastown, it took up to 2 and a half hours to do just one direction of travel. This isn't great from a work-life balance perspective given that a huge chunk of my time outside of work was spent traveling.
With limited stop orbital journeys doing a complete loop parallel to the M50, this time could be cut in half and possibly more if the proper infrastructure was provided and connecting services are sufficiently coordinated.
Above all, if it ends up being an attractive alternative to the car (time-wise), it should help in mitigating any further build up of traffic on the already heavily congested M50.Dalkey only has a population of 8,000 so its not exactly huge and needs bus services going here there and everywhere.
To begin with, Dalkey would only be a starting point as it would traverse its way through Upper Glenageary Road (taking in the shopping districts), Mounttown Road Lower, Mounttown Road Upper, Monkstown Avenue, Grange Grove, Monkstown Ring Road and then onto the N11. So, the collective alignment along this new stem would form a business case for an hourly service. Plus, it would distinguish itself quite a bit from the 46A.A bus service between Dalkey and Town on the N11 would duplicate many routes so it would be a waste of resources.
Given the high profile nature of Stillorgan, UCD and Donnybrook as a trunk route for buses, I don't see how an additional branch (see the purple text) would do any harm. It's at least worth a trial run on an hourly basis. If the numbers don't add up after a year, scrap it. Until then, nobody knows for sure if such a route would be a success.
The half-assed reinstatement of the 8 (from 2005 to 2016) and the almost non-existent 7D aren't going gather numbers for the simple reason that their timetables offer zero flexibility to prospective passengers. Even if they ran clock-face hourly like the Aircoach, without the 24 hour part, people will more likely avail of them as frequency sells.0 -
patrickbrophy18 wrote: »The issue with this logic is that a car can do many of these journeys in a fraction of the time:
- 75: Getting a DART to Dun Laoghaire and changing for the 75 to Dundrum could take up to 50 minutes. By car, it's usually around 20 minutes. If Tallaght is the end point, it would take 2 hours by public transport versus only 30 minutes by car.
- 46A: Taking the DART to Dun Laoghaire and then a 46A to UCD could take up to 45 minutes while doing so by car is only 20 minutes.
Unfortunately public transport sometimes has to take longer even if there is a direct mode. Anyway nobody would use the 75 to make a end to end journey DL to Tallaght as it would take too long. Any bus route direct or not will generally take longer if its between two places outside of the city centre. At a one hour frequency I can't how a bus would entice people out of their car.patrickbrophy18 wrote: »I think the phrase "from time to time" should be the operative word here. Unfortunately, staggered journeys which require one or possibly two changes are incredibly inconvenient for those needing to be in work early in the morning.
For example, when I was working in IBM in Damastown, it took up to 2 and a half hours to do just one direction of travel. This isn't great from a work-life balance perspective given that a huge chunk of my time outside of work was spent traveling.
With limited stop orbital journeys doing a complete loop parallel to the M50, this time could be cut in half and possibly more if the proper infrastructure was provided and connecting services are sufficiently coordinated.
Above all, if it ends up being an attractive alternative to the car (time-wise), it should help in mitigating any further build up of traffic on the already heavily congested M50.
So we should have a direct bus service between Dalkey and Damastown just to suit you. Public transport is designed to meet the needs of the majority not minority. A bus service on the m50 would probably not be viable as the road is designed for cars and not public transport. I've yet to come across a city with a bus service on an orbital motorway.patrickbrophy18 wrote: »To begin with, Dalkey would only be a starting point as it would traverse its way through Upper Glenageary Road (taking in the shopping districts), Mounttown Road Lower, Mounttown Road Upper, Monkstown Avenue, Grange Grove, Monkstown Ring Road and then onto the N11. So, the collective alignment along this new stem would form a business case for an hourly service. Plus, it would distinguish itself quite a bit from the 46A.
There would still be alot of crossover between the 7/a, 46a and the 4 throughout much of your proposed route all of those being much more frequent than your proposed hourly service. Which people will be more likely to use even if they have to walk.patrickbrophy18 wrote: »Given the high profile nature of Stillorgan, UCD and Donnybrook as a trunk route for buses, I don't see how an additional branch (see the purple text) would do any harm. It's at least worth a trial run on an hourly basis. If the numbers don't add up after a year, scrap it. Until then, nobody knows for sure if such a route would be a success.
The half-assed reinstatement of the 8 (from 2005 to 2016) and the almost non-existent 7D aren't going gather numbers for the simple reason that their timetables offer zero flexibility to prospective passengers. Even if they ran clock-face hourly like the Aircoach, without the 24 hour part, people will more likely avail of them as frequency sells.
Ile give you a case study. Before Network Direct there used to be an hourly 63 which operated from the cc to Kilternan. The buses carried very few passengers other than adding additional capacity on the n11 the buses also used to right at Donnybrook depot then operate down Angelsea Road to Ballsbridge thus adding additional capacity between Ballsbridge and town.
This route was quite logically withdrawn from the cc and now operates as a popular route to DL instead of the CC. After it was withdrawn places like Kilternan, Ballyogan, Carrickmines and parts of Foxrock all of which would add up to a similar population as Dalkey lost a direct service to UCD, Donnybrook and Ballsbridge. I would imagine a route from Dalkey into Town via the n11 would have a similar result.0 -
I reckon the existing 120 and most of the 122 routes are goners once Luas Cross City opens and the network review happens. 120 in particular will be nearly entirely served by the Luas. There's probably fare differences that make the bus cheaper, but Id say a big amount of the passengers are FTP anyway.
The 120 will continue to be a very handy service for those of us who live in RCP & Ashtown, say after dark when the prospect of a walk along the canal isn't that promising.
Meanwhile, as Ashington delights in cutting itself off from us scuffs who live on the far side of the canal, the Luas might as well be on the far side of the moon, so the 122 will continue to be in demand there.0 -
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mrsdewinter wrote: »The 120 will continue to be a very handy service for those of us who live in RCP & Ashtown, say after dark when the prospect of a walk along the canal isn't that promising.
Meanwhile, as Ashington delights in cutting itself off from us scuffs who live on the far side of the canal, the Luas might as well be on the far side of the moon, so the 122 will continue to be in demand there.
I think I clarified since that last post, but when I say they're goners, I mean as they exist today. I think the 120 especially will deserve a significant re-routing, and the 122 should be re-routed also for a large section.0 -
I think I clarified since that last post, but when I say they're goners, I mean as they exist today. I think the 120 especially will deserve a significant re-routing, and the 122 should be re-routed also for a large section.
There's still a fair distance between the first two LUAS stops and that may indeed weigh in favour of the 120 & 122 retaining their existing routes through Cabra.
Large parts of Rathborne are a significant walk from both Ashtown & Broombridge - I certainly see the need for the bus service.
We will have to wait and see what happens in terms of usage patterns - that will dictate what changes happen in the interim before BusConnects comes along.0 -
Unfortunately public transport sometimes has to take longer even if there is a direct mode. Anyway nobody would use the 75 to make a end to end journey DL to Tallaght as it would take too long. Any bus route direct or not will generally take longer if its between two places outside of the city centre. At a one hour frequency I can't how a bus would entice people out of their car.
The meandering of the 75 adds significantly to the journey length. This is where the 175 should come in. The Go Ahead version of the 175 only goes from UCD to Citywest when it should start from Dun Laoghaire. UCD is indeed a much needed stop off point. But, it shouldn't be the terminus. At the end of the day, a 90 minute journey length is far too long for an orbital route and needs to operate more sensibly.So we should have a direct bus service between Dalkey and Damastown just to suit you. Public transport is designed to meet the needs of the majority not minority. A bus service on the m50 would probably not be viable as the road is designed for cars and not public transport. I've yet to come across a city with a bus service on an orbital motorway.
What is it with all of these over-exaggerations?
I'm not saying that a direct service from Dalkey to Damastown exclusively should be introduced. I was saying that the current 2 and sometimes 2 and a half hour combined journey lengths each way needs to be cut significantly. If aligned correctly, a bus service could cover the purpose of this end-to-end commute in an hour while taking in key locations en route.There would still be alot of crossover between the 7/a, 46a and the 4 throughout much of your proposed route all of those being much more frequent than your proposed hourly service. Which people will be more likely to use even if they have to walk.
The exact same thing could be said vice versa. There is always going to be some overlap with existing routes. The added benefit would be that the combined frequency makes the trunk routes more reliable. For example, Finnegan Bray has a huge amount of crossover with the existing 45, 84, 145 and 45A routes. Nevertheless, it serves to augment the level of service along specific stretches adding more reliability to these stretches.Ile give you a case study. Before Network Direct there used to be an hourly 63 which operated from the cc to Kilternan. The buses carried very few passengers other than adding additional capacity on the n11 the buses also used to right at Donnybrook depot then operate down Angelsea Road to Ballsbridge thus adding additional capacity between Ballsbridge and town.
I do see that the 63 service is a popular local route. That isn't to say that Kilternan doesn't also have the 44 and the variations there of. So, it does have a direct route into town ex Enniskerry.This route was quite logically withdrawn from the cc and now operates as a popular route to DL instead of the CC. After it was withdrawn places like Kilternan, Ballyogan, Carrickmines
Carrickmines and Ballyogan where left out in the cold as they are medium to large retail and urban centers. The Luas is a great transport link. However, given that the car park, particularly in Carrickmines is now reaching capacity is indicative of unexplored public transport demand. Now, not all car journeys to Carrickmines would have a suitable public transport alternative due to many of the heavy loads being carried from furniture shops and electronics boutiques.
Having said that, where the shopper is carrying items below a certain weight, there is no reason why these journeys couldn't be replaced by a public transport alternative. Perhaps, an additional variant of the 44 could take up role and operate via Ballyogan, Sandyford, Stillorgan, UCD and Donnybrook. This is the most obvious alignment permutation and yes, it would largely overlap with the 47 from Stillorgan onwards.Dalkey lost a direct service to UCD, Donnybrook and Ballsbridge. I would imagine a route from Dalkey into Town via the n11 would have a similar result.
Dalkey still does have a direct service albeit with negligible effect because there is only one journey per direction Monday to Friday and NO weekend services. Bottom line, if a service like this is going to operate, it should do so at a minimum of every hour Monday to Sunday.
Obviously, places like Bray, Dun Laoghaire and Blackrock are going to warrant more frequent services of 5-15 minutely given their highly urbanized nature. This also applies to areas out of reach from light or heavy rail routes so that there is an even distribution of services.
To cut a long story short, we are a long way off dissuading car usage as there are still a lot of areas which lack adequate contingency plans. There will come a time when there is a congestion charge in Dublin City. When that happens, the suburbs need to be far more prepared than at present.0 -
patrickbrophy18 wrote: »I'm not saying that a direct service from Dalkey to Damastown exclusively should be introduced. I was saying that the current 2 and sometimes 2 and a half hour combined journey lengths each way needs to be cut significantly. If aligned correctly, a bus service could cover the purpose of this end-to-end commute in an hour while taking in key locations en route.
But realistically though you are not going to be able to provide a quick journey time between every single suburb or residential area and every single industrial area or workplace, no matter how hard you try. Realistically, how many people from Dalkey are working in Damastown? Very very little I would suggest.
Certainly there is improvements needed to the network and an increase in frequency of orbital routes, of which the BusConnects plan and the 35% increased on the GoAhead routes will help, but a quick link between each residential area and each business place is not going to happen, improvements will happen certainly, ultopia unfortunately not.0 -
patrickbrophy18 wrote: »The meandering of the 75 adds significantly to the journey length. This is where the 175 should come in. The Go Ahead version of the 175 only goes from UCD to Citywest when it should start from Dun Laoghaire. UCD is indeed a much needed stop off point. But, it shouldn't be the terminus. At the end of the day, a 90 minute journey length is far too long for an orbital route and needs to operate more sensibly.
Citywest/Tallaght/Dundrum to DL via UCD would take even longer than the current 75. The 75 between DL and Dundrum actually takes a reletively direct route its only really west of Dundrum when the meandering begins. Not many use the 75 to go from terminus to terminus rather its used predominately to make in between journeys such as DL to Dundrum, Dundrum to Nutgrove, Nutgrove to Tallaght etc.I'm not saying that a direct service from Dalkey to Damastown exclusively should be introduced. I was saying that the current 2 and sometimes 2 and a half hour combined journey lengths each way needs to be cut significantly. If aligned correctly, a bus service could cover the purpose of this end-to-end commute in an hour while taking in key locations en route.
See Devnulls postThe exact same thing could be said vice versa. There is always going to be some overlap with existing routes. The added benefit would be that the combined frequency makes the trunk routes more reliable. For example, Finnegan Bray has a huge amount of crossover with the existing 45, 84, 145 and 45A routes. Nevertheless, it serves to augment the level of service along specific stretches adding more reliability to these stretches.
The Finegans service is a joke when comes to an intergrated public transport service. No Leap cards accepted and the buses are all ancient rustbucket minibuses and no weekend service. I was at a bus stop one day waiting for a 145 to Bray and a Finegans minibus went by and not a single person put they're hand out either because they were using Leap or didn't even know the service existed and the bus was just a normal minibus on private hire.I do see that the 63 service is a popular local route. That isn't to say that Kilternan doesn't also have the 44 and the variations there of. So, it does have a direct route into town ex Enniskerry.
But not to UCD, Donnybrook or StillorganCarrickmines and Ballyogan where left out in the cold as they are medium to large retail and urban centers. The Luas is a great transport link. However, given that the car park, particularly in Carrickmines is now reaching capacity is indicative of unexplored public transport demand. Now, not all car journeys to Carrickmines would have a suitable public transport alternative due to many of the heavy loads being carried from furniture shops and electronics boutiques.
Having said that, where the shopper is carrying items below a certain weight, there is no reason why these journeys couldn't be replaced by a public transport alternative. Perhaps, an additional variant of the 44 could take up role and operate via Ballyogan, Sandyford, Stillorgan, UCD and Donnybrook. This is the most obvious alignment permutation and yes, it would largely overlap with the 47 from Stillorgan onwards.
And the resources would come from? That route would never be viable anyway.Dalkey still does have a direct service albeit with negligible effect because there is only one journey per direction Monday to Friday and NO weekend services. Bottom line, if a service like this is going to operate, it should do so at a minimum of every hour Monday to Sunday.
Obviously, places like Bray, Dun Laoghaire and Blackrock are going to warrant more frequent services of 5-15 minutely given their highly urbanized nature. This also applies to areas out of reach from light or heavy rail routes so that there is an even distribution of services.
To cut a long story short, we are a long way off dissuading car usage as there are still a lot of areas which lack adequate contingency plans. There will come a time when there is a congestion charge in Dublin City. When that happens, the suburbs need to be far more prepared than at present.
That was a typo I made I meant to day Kilternan, Carrickmines and Ballyogan. Most places in Dublin could only dream of having a Dart or Luas connection. Dalkey has that it dosen't need a bus connection aswell as that would be a waste of resources which would deprive other areas that need it more of a decent bus service.0 -
I was thinking of a few tweaks I would make there recently and one of them would be to bring back the 4a. Have the 4 go its current routing to Monkstown avenue and introduce a new 4a to Cornelscourt. Interwork the timetables and increase the frequency on the 4/a to every 10 mins during the week, every 15 mins on a Saturday and every 20 mins on a Sunday.
This would mean the 84 would only have to go as far as Brides Glen Luas as my proposed 4a would serve the schools, Clonkeen Road and Deansgrange meaning that the 84 could increase its frequency as it wouldn't be as long a route and it could directly serve Brides Glen Luas Stop as passengers would no longer have to walk up to the stop.0 -
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I know they amalgamated some of the stops onto the 44 but the 48a back in the day was a good service through Dundrum from town up the hills and around Ballinteer. With the increased population around that area now plus the various park and rides it could do with a resurrection to go via Donnybrook / Ballsbridge into town.0
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Citywest/Tallaght/Dundrum to DL via UCD would take even longer than the current 75. The 75 between DL and Dundrum actually takes a reletively direct route its only really west of Dundrum when the meandering begins. Not many use the 75 to go from terminus to terminus rather its used predominately to make in between journeys such as DL to Dundrum, Dundrum to Nutgrove, Nutgrove to Tallaght etc.
See Devnulls post
The Finegans service is a joke when comes to an intergrated public transport service. No Leap cards accepted and the buses are all ancient rustbucket minibuses and no weekend service. I was at a bus stop one day waiting for a 145 to Bray and a Finegans minibus went by and not a single person put they're hand out either because they were using Leap or didn't even know the service existed and the bus was just a normal minibus on private hire.
But not to UCD, Donnybrook or Stillorgan
And the resources would come from? That route would never be viable anyway.
That was a typo I made I meant to day Kilternan, Carrickmines and Ballyogan. Most places in Dublin could only dream of having a Dart or Luas connection. Dalkey has that it dosen't need a bus connection aswell as that would be a waste of resources which would deprive other areas that need it more of a decent bus service.
Having gone back over my previous posts, the above sentiment is a complete u-turn on your observation made almost a year ago (below):
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=101309290&postcount=110
I even stood up for you when you were harshly criticized!0 -
patrickbrophy18 wrote: »Having gone back over my previous posts, the above sentiment is a complete u-turn on your observation made almost a year ago (below):
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=101309290&postcount=110
I even stood up for you when you were harshly criticized!
A service from Dalkey to UCD might work but definitely a one that goes into the cc wouldn't. I haven't fully gone on my word I still think the 111 for example is a poor service for Dalkey and a more direct service to Bride's Glen would make sense especially with the up and coming development there.
People change their opinions I was younger then and put less thought into my posts. I used to post a lot without thinking logically. Even that psot I made a mont ago I would have more thought into now. I'm sorry if I offended you.0 -
A service from Dalkey to UCD might work but definitely a one that goes into the cc wouldn't. I haven't fully gone on my word I still think the 111 for example is a poor service for Dalkey and a more direct service to Bride's Glen would make sense especially with the up and coming development there.
Agreed for the most part! The 111 is ticking quite a few wrong boxes. It appears to take forever to get from Dalkey to Brides Glen. Hopefully, Go-Ahead will see sense and divvy it up into more dedicated routes while at the same time keeping it profit making.People change their opinions I was younger then and put less thought into my posts. I used to post a lot without thinking logically. Even that psot I made a mont ago I would have more thought into now. I'm sorry if I offended you.
You didn't really offend me as such. Anyway, change is interesting. After all, if there was no change, life would be very boring altogether!0
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