Owning a car : Better value for money than using PT

stimpson · 07-06-2017 2:14pm

For all this talk about how car owners don't take the true cost of ownership into account, I haven't heard anyone include the cost of their time into the calculations. Looking at the google maps estimate for my own commute, which is inside the M50, the bus would take 1h20 in the morning and 1h08 in the evening, as opposed to 20 mins morning and 30 mins evening for the car. An extra 1h40 per day. So it's around 20% of my working day. There is no way my car costs me anywhere near 20% of my net salary to run including fuel, depreciation, maintenance, tax, insurance and tolls.

I used to work in the city centre, albeit with a 10AM start time so I missed rush hour, but the sums were similar.

knipex · 07-06-2017 2:38pm

Deedsie wrote: »

Rural Ireland needs to try something different, sinking all the inhabitants money into a sometimes unnecessary private car could be one approach for people to save some money.

So whats the plan ?? run buses all round rural Ireland ?

I grew up in Rural Ireland. someone got hurt you had a choice, wait an hour for an ambulance of drive them to the hospital, Drive to the shop for food or do without, Drive to the rural town to buy clothes, white goods, tools, animal feed, seed, whatever. Want to go out for a meal, drive, for a beer drive (but we carpooled and someone stayed on the dry), cinema, drive.

There was and is no option, no buses, no mass public transport and cycling 20 km with a weeks shop on the handle bars isn't a viable solution.

Rural towns act for a hinterland, they act as a retail hub, a social hub and in many cases an employment hub.. People from the hinterland have no option but to drive to these rural towns, that is why you have cars everywhere.. They have no other option..

_Kaiser_ · 07-06-2017 2:50pm

knipex wrote: »

So whats the plan ?? run buses all round rural Ireland ?

I grew up in Rural Ireland. someone got hurt you had a choice, wait an hour for an ambulance of drive them to the hospital, Drive to the shop for food or do without, Drive to the rural town to buy clothes, white goods, tools, animal feed, seed, whatever. Want to go out for a meal, drive, for a beer drive (but we carpooled and someone stayed on the dry), cinema, drive.

There was and is no option, no buses, no mass public transport and cycling 20 km with a weeks shop on the handle bars isn't a viable solution.

Rural towns act for a hinterland, they act as a retail hub, a social hub and in many cases an employment hub.. People from the hinterland have no option but to drive to these rural towns, that is why you have cars everywhere.. They have no other option..

I think the idea is that people will cycle everywhere and do smaller, daily shops locally and so on.

That's grand if you're happy to spend each day running back and forth to the shop and pay more for your wares - but as with most pro-cycling arguments, there's a refusal to accept that it's neither practical or desirable in many cases.

07-06-2017 3:03pm

stimpson wrote: »

For all this talk about how car owners don't take the true cost of ownership into account, I haven't heard anyone include the cost of their time into the calculations. Looking at the google maps estimate for my own commute, which is inside the M50, the bus would take 1h20 in the morning and 1h08 in the evening, as opposed to 20 mins morning and 30 mins evening for the car. An extra 1h40 per day. So it's around 20% of my working day. There is no way my car costs me anywhere near 20% of my net salary to run including fuel, depreciation, maintenance, tax, insurance and tolls.

I used to work in the city centre, albeit with a 10AM start time so I missed rush hour, but the sums were similar.

One situation doesn't equal all situations.

stimpson · 07-06-2017 3:13pm

Deleted User wrote: »

One situation doesn't equal all situations.

I never said it did. I just think that people should factor the cost of their time into their calculations.

irelandrover · 07-06-2017 3:25pm

stimpson wrote: »

For all this talk about how car owners don't take the true cost of ownership into account, I haven't heard anyone include the cost of their time into the calculations. Looking at the google maps estimate for my own commute, which is inside the M50, the bus would take 1h20 in the morning and 1h08 in the evening, as opposed to 20 mins morning and 30 mins evening for the car. An extra 1h40 per day. So it's around 20% of my working day. There is no way my car costs me anywhere near 20% of my net salary to run including fuel, depreciation, maintenance, tax, insurance and tolls.

I used to work in the city centre, albeit with a 10AM start time so I missed rush hour, but the sums were similar.

For you it obviously makes sense to own the car. a saving of 8 hours a week is significiant.

On the otherside, i know someone who works 5km from work. thats a 15 minute cycle maximum. Due to traffic it takes them between 30-60 minutes to drive that.

For a lot (not most) of people that have a car it is simply not a necessity. For a lot of people who live rural it is a neseccity. For people like you where it saves a large amount of time per day then it is the logical choice to get a car.

07-06-2017 3:38pm

stimpson wrote: »

I never said it did. I just think that people should factor the cost of their time into their calculations.

I think most people do factor it in. Personally for me to get a bus from one side of my town to the other would be about 45 minutes in the summer. A lift is about 10. Walking would be nearly an hour. So yeah, in that case the bus is barely an option. For most people in a city (especially with traffic but where bus lanes exist) public transport will be quicker. Even for me to get to Dublin city centre I would lose about 10 minutes on the motorway (speeding slightly in a car) but would make up about half an hour getting into the city.
All that said, when I see people in small towns with ?50k+ cars I think they must be doing well for themselves because it would be cheaper for them to get taxis everywhere. :pac:

stimpson · 07-06-2017 3:45pm

irelandrover wrote: »

For a lot (not most) of people that have a car it is simply not a necessity. For a lot of people who live rural it is a neseccity. For people like you where it saves a large amount of time per day then it is the logical choice to get a car.

You are asserting that without offering any evidence. It's just your opinion. If you live and work inside the canals then it's probably true.

If you live in suburbia, or any of the commuter towns or beyond, or if you have kids, or if you visit family down the country at weekends, then the use of a car on a regular basis is probably good value.

The marginal cost of using that car to go to work is just fuel + tolls - your hourly rate. That is the true measure of value of driving to work. In my case that's a fairly large negative number. I would wager it's a negative number, or a small positive one for most people that drive to work.

irelandrover · 07-06-2017 3:49pm

stimpson wrote: »

You are asserting that without offering any evidence. It's just your opinion. If you live and work inside the canals then it's probably true.

If you live in suburbia, or any of the commuter towns or beyond, or if you have kids, or if you visit family down the country at weekends, then the use of a car on a regular basis is probably good value.

The marginal cost of using that car to go to work is just fuel + tolls +/- your hourly rate. That is the true measure of value of driving to work. In my case that's a fairly large negative number. I would wager it's a negative number, or a small positive one for most people that drive to work.

Thats just not true either. If you were not commuting you would most likely be at home where you dont get paid your standard hourly rate.

I also wasn't just talking about Dublin. A lot of galway it is easier to cycle. I also dont live in Ireland so wasnt even talking about just Ireland.

Where Im from in Ireland is a small enough town. Anyone within 5km could easily cycle to work. Noone i know there cycles to work.

So yes, i was speaking without facts, based on my experience.

stimpson · 07-06-2017 3:56pm

irelandrover wrote: »

Thats just not true either. If you were not commuting you would most likely be at home where you dont get paid your standard hourly rate.

If you're not working then the opportunity cost becomes your potential salary - social welfare. I'm not sure what your argument is.

I also wasn't just talking about Dublin. A lot of galway it is easier to cycle. I also dont live in Ireland so wasnt even talking about just Ireland.

It's reasonable to assume we're talking about Ireland on an Irish forum. For anyone living 5km outside a small country town the value proposition of owning a car is to still be alive when they get to work.

irelandrover · 07-06-2017 4:00pm

stimpson wrote: »

If you're not working then the opportunity cost becomes your potential salary - social welfare. I'm not sure what your argument is.

You said that the cost was your hourly rate minus petrol + tolls. My point was if you save 30 minutes each way commuting then normally it doesnt mean you work an extra hour a day. the time you spend at home instead of commuting is not paid at your normal hourly rate

stimpson wrote: »

It's reasonable to assume we're talking about Ireland on an Irish forum. For anyone living 5km outside a small country town the value proposition of owning a car is to still be alive when they get to work.

You focussed completely on Dublin in your post.

stimpson · 07-06-2017 4:08pm

irelandrover wrote: »

You said that the cost was your hourly rate minus petrol + tolls. My point was if you save 30 minutes each way commuting then normally it doesnt mean you work an extra hour a day. the time you spend at home instead of commuting is not paid at your normal hourly rate

If you get paid €50 per hour then that is the value of an hour to you. For me it's an hour that I could be gardening, hanging out with the kids or drinking. All of which I would rather do with that hour than go to work at €50ph. In economic terms it's the opportunity cost of not going to work.

You focussed completely on Dublin in your post.

No I didn't. Read it again.

irelandrover · 07-06-2017 4:12pm

stimpson wrote: »

You are asserting that without offering any evidence. It's just your opinion. If you live and work inside the canals then it's probably true.

If you live in suburbia, or any of the commuter towns or beyond, or if you have kids, or if you visit family down the country at weekends, then the use of a car on a regular basis is probably good value.

The marginal cost of using that car to go to work is just fuel + tolls - your hourly rate. That is the true measure of value of driving to work. In my case that's a fairly large negative number. I would wager it's a negative number, or a small positive one for most people that drive to work.

stimpson wrote: »

If you get paid €50 per hour then that is the value of an hour to you. For me it's an hour that I could be gardening, hanging out with the kids or drinking. All of which I would rather do with that hour than go to work at €50ph. In economic terms it's the opportunity cost of not going to work.

No I didn't. Read it again.

Where were you talking about in the bolded section? To me it seems you are talking about Dublin.

We'll have to disagree with the opportunity cost part.

stimpson · 07-06-2017 4:24pm

irelandrover wrote: »

Where were you talking about in the bolded section? To me it seems you are talking about Dublin.

We'll have to disagree with the opportunity cost part.

Commuter towns or beyond? That covers anywhere outside Dublin.

You don't have to agree with opportunity cost, but it is a valid concept in economics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost

irelandrover · 07-06-2017 4:27pm

stimpson wrote: »

Commuter towns or beyond? That covers anywhere outside Dublin.

You don't have to agree with opportunity cost, but it is a valid concept in economics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost

It is a valid concept. But I dont agree that the time you save commuting could otherwise be spent working. Hence you arent losing the €50p/h as you stated.

Fair enough, i missed the "or beyond" part.

stimpson · 07-06-2017 4:40pm

irelandrover wrote: »

It is a valid concept. But I dont agree that the time you save commuting could otherwise be spent working.

The time could be spent doing many things, including working.

I love Sean nos · 07-06-2017 5:21pm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I think the idea is that people will cycle everywhere and do smaller, daily shops locally and so on.

That's grand if you're happy to spend each day running back and forth to the shop and pay more for your wares - but as with most pro-cycling arguments, there's a refusal to accept that it's neither practical or desirable in many cases.

I always felt that the potential improvements to public transport was the best argument.

bk · 07-06-2017 6:13pm

I've never liked this time is money argument.

Sure it is true for a small percentage of people who have a job that pays per hour they actually work and importantly they have the option to regularly work more hours.

This definitely isn't the case for the vast majority of people, most people are paid a salary and if they work more hours, they don't get paid more. And even those on an hourly rate, they usually get told their schedule. So I don't think it is really true for most people.

Of course that doesn't mean you mightn't want to spend your time in other ways. Of course it wouldn't make any sense to commute for 3 hours a day if you could do the same by car in 1 hour. No one would argue that.

Do it does beg the question, why did you choose to live somewhere so distant and inaccessible to your work?

However there are plenty of people for whom walking/cycling/public transport are so as fast or even faster then car.

Also you have to take into account that walking/cycling can be very pleasant (IME) and good for your health and you can often work/read/watch/play while on public transport. Maybe even bill the hours on public transport if you have the right type of job. So all of these can also be good uses of your time.

It comes down to each person examining their needs and coming up with the best balance of cost versus time spent.

However I do have to say I think far too many people in Ireland just go straight out and buy a car and then buy a 3 bed house WAY way from their work without even thinking about it, because that is what everyone does and that is just what you do when you "grow up" and then they end up locked in this mindset that they have no choice but to own a car and that there is no possible way to live.

BTW I just wanted to mention that I've two friends who live in the Dublin region, who bought a car, "you know because that is what you do", but then a few years later ended up selling it and not replacing it because they realised how little they really used it and how much it was costing them.

As for the "freedom" argument. Think of how much a car costs, seems to average about €500 per month. Think how many nights out and restaurants that can pay for. Think of how many trips abroad, etc. There are different ways to measure "freedom".

magicbastarder · 07-06-2017 6:16pm

stimpson wrote: »

If you get paid €50 per hour then that is the value of an hour to you. For me it's an hour that I could be gardening, hanging out with the kids or drinking.

i don't follow this logic. so if you decide to spend 6 hours in bed instead of 8, you're €100 'better off'?
if i am paid €50 per hour, that is what my time is valued at *while working*.

07-06-2017 6:59pm

bk wrote: »

I've never liked this time is money argument.

Sure it is true for a small percentage of people who have a job that pays per hour they actually work and importantly they have the option to regularly work more hours.

This definitely isn't the case for the vast majority of people, most people are paid a salary and if they work more hours, they don't get paid more. And even those on an hourly rate, they usually get told their schedule. So I don't think it is really true for most people.

Of course that doesn't mean you mightn't want to spend your time in other ways. Of course it wouldn't make any sense to commute for 3 hours a day if you could do the same by car in 1 hour. No one would argue that.

Do it does beg the question, why did you choose to live somewhere so distant and inaccessible to your work?

However there are plenty of people for whom walking/cycling/public transport are so as fast or even faster then car.

Also you have to take into account that walking/cycling can be very pleasant (IME) and good for your health and you can often work/read/watch/play while on public transport. Maybe even bill the hours on public transport if you have the right type of job. So all of these can also be good uses of your time.

It comes down to each person examining their needs and coming up with the best balance of cost versus time spent.

However I do have to say I think far too many people in Ireland just go straight out and buy a car and then buy a 3 bed house WAY way from their work without even thinking about it, because that is what everyone does and that is just what you do when you "grow up" and then they end up locked in this mindset that they have no choice but to own a car and that there is no possible way to live.

BTW I just wanted to mention that I've two friends who live in the Dublin region, who bought a car, you know because that is what you do, but then a few years ended up selling it and not replacing it because they realised how little they really used it and how much it was costing them.

As for the "freedom" argument. Think of how much a car costs, seems to average about ?500 per month. Think how many nights out and restaurants that can pay for. Think of how many trips abroad, etc. There are different ways to measure "freedom".

From commuting to college I learned that I don't want to do that. Right now I work in the town I'm in. I'll have to commute to Dublin for a little while soon (but will finish an hour earlier) and it's valuable experience. For a couple of weeks of that it'll be public transport which will be a pain but very doable for a couple of weeks. Long-term if I get a job in Dublin I'll be moving somewhere with a direct link whether bus, luas or train straight to work.
All the years I was commuting to college (only sometimes had to get the very early bus thankfully) I saw people who were still doing it every day. There's people who've been at it well over 10 years and I just don't understand how it's worth it.

GritBiscuit · 07-06-2017 10:25pm

Deedsie wrote: »

All the more reason people should "bike to shop" in our rural towns. Every rural town in Ireland is just streets lined with car after car. Horrendous traffic congestion. Providing for safe urban cycling in our small/medium towns is important to provide an alternative to people who believe the illusion that "you have to have a car".

It's such a financial drain on people. And with a bit of critical analysis, lots of people could easily get away without a car.

It's less of an illusion for folks with multiple kids and the weekly shop...which in fairness, is most of them...

I wouldn't agree with the horrendous traffic congestion either...my journey from one side of town to the other side in rush hour using fast ring roads is about 20 mins...I reckon most folks in the big shmoke would love that kind of "commute"...

GritBiscuit · 08-06-2017 1:36am

Oh I know there are towns with horrific traffic congestion, I've been thru them!

I just don't prescribe to the "if everyone just rode bikes" anathema which blatantly ignores the multitude of issues and day-to-day practicalities which rule out the majority from volunteering to give up their cars in lieu of the kind of town planning which sets its sights beyond the usual generational nimby-ism, nepotism and short-sighted self-interest.

GritBiscuit · 08-06-2017 7:34am

I doubt a lack of bike racks is what is puting people off ditching their cars for bikes. For instance, I wouldn't let my kids cycle to school because of the generally abysmal standard of driving on the roads...have a gander over on the cycling forum to see what adults are up against.

Better, wider roads purpose built to have safe cycle paths would resolve that but again, that's up to town planners. As things stand there are too many narrow roads, a plethora of middle-aged drivers who got their licences free with a cereal packet and crappy public transport. I'd be delighted to see inroads in all three of those but until the general attitude to the roads changes, along with a healthy dose of climate change, I don't see the majority changing their ways.

GritBiscuit · 08-06-2017 8:37am

I agree with you - it's hugely frustrating. Likewise, I try to car share etc wherever possible but at the end of the day when it's bucketing rain, I have bags of shopping and 2 primary school aged kids to collect from opposite sides of town, there's no viable alternative to using the car.

We got a ring road with a fantastic safe cycle path - is there any way of crossing the intersections between roundabout other than playing chicken tho? Of course not. :rolleyes:

TallGlass · 08-06-2017 9:05am

The main cost of running a car is fuel (for most!), if you can manage to cut back on how much you spend on that, then you will find that the nice medium is in fact a combination of public transport, burning some calories and owning a car.

I am giving heavy thought to giving up the car for a few months just to test what the other options are like, if I like it.

It's easy for me to say as I am set up driving and have my full licence, the sheer cost of starting to drive, I would estimate is around 10/12k.

magicbastarder · 08-06-2017 9:16am

TallGlass wrote: »

The main cost of running a car is fuel (for most!)

what's the average spend on fuel? if you're doing 20,000km a year, that's going to cost roughly €2000.
if cost of actually obtaining a car (car loan/finance/what have you) is below €165pm, for that person, fuel *is* probably the most costly option. but again, depends on circumstances, i couldn't tell you how close to the average those figures are.

pwurple · 08-06-2017 9:30am

I like the idea of the self-drive car which goes off and earns it's keep as a taxi while I'm not using it.

https://www.inverse.com/article/23783-elon-musk-uber-tesla-self-driving-car-service-transform

Pinch Flat · 08-06-2017 9:46am

My transport costs Monday to Friday are biking to work. I've never driven to work in Dublin since 2000, bar a few years when my job involved moving about day to day. I use Dublin bikes in around the city - safer than using my own! The odd taxi if travelling out of town. I've started using GoCar a few times and it's more economical than a taxi.

We have a modest car. My wife doesn't cycle, but uses the train to go to work. So for us, a modest car costs:

€300 / month (loan - increased as we're trying to clear it soon)
€60 / month diesel. More obviously if we travel down the country on a weekend.
Motor tax €200 / year
Insurance €500 / year
Tolls €200 / year
€150 / year servicing
€? for depreciation - the car is worth about €5 - 7k now I'd say optimistically on a trade in. So say we lose a few grand on depreciation annually?

I haven't factored in bigger motoring expenses - major repairs, tyres, new exhaust etc.

So all in it's probably costing us the guts of €8.5k a year to have a car that we use at weekends only. It's an insane amount of money really.

TallGlass · 08-06-2017 11:01am

The thing I find with GoCar, it is been seriously held back by the way you cannot just go from A to B and leave the car at B and sign off the system. You've to bring it back to A, if it was like DB I can imagine, they would be extremely popular.

jimmycrackcorm · 08-06-2017 11:37am

TallGlass wrote:

The thing I find with GoCar, it is been seriously held back by the way you cannot just go from A to B and leave the car at B and sign off the system. You've to bring it back to A, if it was like DB I can imagine, they would be extremely popular.

DB can be bad though, try getting a bike in the inner south city stands in the evening when they've all migrated away from work places.

Pinch Flat wrote:

So all in it's probably costing us the guts of â‚¬8.5k a year to have a car that we use at weekends only. It's an insane amount of money really.

I'm like you in a sense that I cycle commute and sometimes use my car at weekends. My costs are less because my car was paid off 5 years ago so the only significant cost I have is insurance and tax. I do my own servicing and generally only pay about 20 per month in petrol. So for me the cost of having a car significantly beats PT charges.

bk · 08-06-2017 4:25pm

GritBiscuit wrote: »

It's less of an illusion for folks with multiple kids and the weekly shop...which in fairness, is most of them...

Depends on where you live, but Tesco Home delivery is amazing. €10 gets you unlimited deliveries.

Even if I had a car I'd continue to use it. While sitting on the sofa with the TV on in the background, I open my laptop and after about 5 minutes I've ordered my weekly shop! Next morning a guy arrives and carries it right into my kitchen for me!

Simply amazing service and been around for the past 15 years or so! No pint in dragging the kids to the supermarket, drag them around there for an hour and then drag the shopping out to the car in the pissing rain!

Think different!

TallGlass wrote: »

The thing I find with GoCar, it is been seriously held back by the way you cannot just go from A to B and leave the car at B and sign off the system. You've to bring it back to A, if it was like DB I can imagine, they would be extremely popular.

Self driving cars are going to absolutely revolutionise the way we travel.

Many people won't own a car, they will just order it up from uber/gocar as they need, it will pull up outside your home, you jump in and it will drop you to the door of your destination and then drive itself off to the next customer or to the closest depot for charging.

Obviously this is still many two decades off, but it is definitely coming.

GritBiscuit · 08-06-2017 7:47pm

bk wrote: »

Think different!

Oh I do. I discovered the joys of Tesco delivery many moons ago - it's also a great way to budget shop but you still need weekly top ups of fresh groceries, particularly if they don't manage to bring everything you've ordered...or you have kids with hollow legs like mine...or there's a change in plan like an unexpected visitor or three...or rain stops long enough to throw a BBQ...you get the idea :pac:

lucernarian · 08-06-2017 7:58pm

Deedsie wrote: »

Well said,

I have a car and it sits in a basement car park most of the week. My wife uses it occasionally during the week. 90% of my travel is as a pedestrian, cyclist, Dublin bus user or intercity rail.

Encouraging people to try use different modes of transport should be government policy. There are alternatives if you look for them. Even in rural Ireland. Average car journey in Ireland is 2 km. That can't be walked occasionally? No wonder we are turning into Europes fattest country.

This is a very good point. In the Netherlands for example, you'd pay a lot more for fuel even than in Ireland but the price of owning a car is very low. For instance, even an Irish driver with a full licence could drive a car, having never driven on the right before, as the car itself is what's insured. It's probably already known by lots of people on C&T, but people are quite happy to travel by train or bike rather than use their car for most journeys.

robinshoody · 09-06-2017 12:23am

Source??!! My gf lives is from Netherlands and I have been over there quite a bit... Have you even been there?

09-06-2017 1:19am

lucernarian wrote: »

This is a very good point. In the Netherlands for example, you'd pay a lot more for fuel even than in Ireland but the price of owning a car is very low. For instance, even an Irish driver with a full licence could drive a car, having never driven on the right before, as the car itself is what's insured. It's probably already known by lots of people on C&T, but people are quite happy to travel by train or bike rather than use their car for most journeys.

Cars are damn expensive over there.

robinshoody · 11-06-2017 6:56pm

The maths just don't add up. I am over there frequently for gf and this is simply inaccurate.

magicbastarder · 06-09-2017 10:39am

spotted in the filling station last night - a petition on the counter, arranged by the Irish Petrol Retailers Association, asking people to sign to protest any possible increase in diesel duties, which has been mooted - a suggestion that diesel will be brought in line with petrol prices.
how price (in)elastic is fuel? i would guess not very, so any impact on the retailers is likely to be fairly moderate.

in the long term, if it did push people to buy petrol cars instead of diesel - they'll still be selling more fuel as MPG is generally better with diesel, so all other things being equal (citation required), the pumps will be pumping more.

bk · 06-09-2017 12:04pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

spotted in the filling station last night - a petition on the counter, arranged by the Irish Petrol Retailers Association, asking people to sign to protest any possible increase in diesel duties, which has been mooted - a suggestion that diesel will be brought in line with petrol prices.
how price (in)elastic is fuel? i would guess not very, so any impact on the retailers is likely to be fairly moderate.

in the long term, if it did push people to buy petrol cars instead of diesel - they'll still be selling more fuel as MPG is generally better with diesel, so all other things being equal (citation required), the pumps will be pumping more.

I think they maybe concerned that it will push more and more people to full EV's, which is already happening anyway, but might speed it up.

Also Hybrid petrols have pretty decent MPG. Hybrid Petrol cars sell far better in the US then Diesels as the price of Diesel is a bit higher then petrol.

I expect in time the same will happen here, it has too as we are currently killing ourselves with Diesel fumes.

I love Sean nos · 06-09-2017 8:29pm

A petition? We're saved.

Banjoxed · 07-09-2017 1:56pm

bk wrote: »

I think they maybe concerned that it will push more and more people to full EV's, which is already happening anyway, but might speed it up.

Also Hybrid petrols have pretty decent MPG. Hybrid Petrol cars sell far better in the US then Diesels as the price of Diesel is a bit higher then petrol.

I expect in time the same will happen here, it has too as we are currently killing ourselves with Diesel fumes.

They will be wasting their time looking for me to sign any petition against a hike in diesel prices. Next time I change my car it will either be a hybrid or an EV. Fighting a rearguard action against a paradigm shift is a waste of everyone's time.

magicbastarder · 07-09-2017 2:13pm

one might think that if they're going to bring the petrol and diesel prices to parity, they might drop the price of petrol (subsidised by the increased revenue from diesel) and raise the price of diesel, and meet somewhere in the middle.
one might also think that they'll just raise the price of diesel full stop.

bk · 07-09-2017 2:28pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

one might think that if they're going to bring the petrol and diesel prices to parity, they might drop the price of petrol (subsidised by the increased revenue from diesel) and raise the price of diesel, and meet somewhere in the middle.
one might also think that they'll just raise the price of diesel full stop.

Possible but unlikely.

You have to remember, Diesel use to cost more, it got cheaper because they dropped the duty on it as it was supposed to be more environmentally friendly.

I mean it sort of is, it produces less green house gas causing CO2 then petrol, but it produces far more cancer/heart disease/etc. causing NOX/PM's

So now that we know the truth, the obvious thing to do is to return Diesel duties to what they were previously.

The problem is that you don't want to go too heavy on promoting petrol either, because while it is better then Diesel in terms of PM/Nox, it isn't great in terms of Co2.

Really we want to be heavily promoting full EV's and get away from both and use petrol hybrids where BEV's are not yet feasible.

It is a bit of a balancing act.

magicbastarder · 07-09-2017 2:30pm

yeah, my post was getting at the expectation that they'll just raise diesel and not touch petrol.

I love Sean nos · 07-09-2017 6:16pm

Banjoxed wrote: »

Fighting a rearguard action against a paradigm shift is a waste of everyone's time.

Signing a petition is a waste of time.

magicbastarder · 07-09-2017 8:03pm

but the government might assume diesel owners welcome a price rise unless they see a petition.

I love Sean nos · 07-09-2017 10:29pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

but the government might assume diesel owners welcome a price rise unless they see a petition.

:pac:

Owning a car : Better value for money than using PT

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