Court date for no insurance.

webs95 · 23-11-2020 9:13pm #1

Hi everyone! I can’t believe I’m writing this but I’ll try and keep it short and of course any advice would be much appreciated.

I temporary lived at my ex girlfriends house at the start of this year as my job was only a walking distance from her house so it only made sense for convenience sake. I missed the renewal of my insurance and I only noticed a couple of weeks later when I bumped into a check point... car got impounded for obvious reasons, my fault, well deserved, I should’ve been more careful. I was extremely respectful to the gardai (even he said that I’ll be okay) he probably seen that I’m the softest bloke you’ll ever meet....

I’ve never gotten in trouble before in my entire life.. the same day I payed the fine to get the car back, and got everything “sorted”.

About 1 or 2 months later I’ve got a fine of €80 which I’ve payed straight away. I was hoping everything would be fine thereafter... however,

fast forward to this week, two letters came with a court date... not producing proof of insurance within 10 days and failing to display insurance disc while driving a mechanically propelled vehicle.

As you can imagine, I have no idea how this is going to go, I’ve no idea what to expect whatsoever, I’m well aware that I made a mistake and a big lesson was learned.

Any advice on how I could possibly prepare for this court date? My anxiety is through the roof...

Thanks a million.

MrMusician18 · 23-11-2020 9:25pm

You'll need a solicitor for your court date. They'll be able to advise, based on their experience, on what the likely outcome will be. I imagine it would be at most a fine and a short driving ban.

Edit. I see it's 5 points or a driving ban for 2 years. For your first offence, it will be a fine and points I imagine.

Spook_ie · 23-11-2020 9:26pm

Is it not a mandatory court appearance for no insurance?

For clarity, what was the €80 fine for?

Smee_Again · 23-11-2020 9:29pm

Doesn’t car insurance auto renew?

webs95 · 23-11-2020 9:30pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

Is it not a mandatory court appearance for no insurance?

For clarity, what was the €80 fine for?

I just double checked, it was €60 for “Non Display of Insurance Disc” (10 days after date of authentication of certificate.) this had been payed online the day I received this letter back in 15/04/2020

L1011 · 23-11-2020 9:34pm

Smee_Again wrote: »

Doesn’t car insurance auto renew?

No, you need to confirm the new price/confirm nothing has changed that would affect the quote. Also many people pay for their insurance in one go so have no ongoing payment relationship with the insurer, you often pay a very significant APR for the monthly option.

Smee_Again · 23-11-2020 9:36pm

L1011 wrote: »

No, you need to confirm the new price/confirm nothing has changed that would affect the quote. Also many people pay for their insurance in one go so have no ongoing payment relationship with the insurer, you often pay a very significant APR for the monthly option.

Fair enough.

I know from experience that Liberty auto renewed the direct debit on my fiancé’s car insurance a few years ago. We had to provide details of the new non-Liberty policy to get a refund.

Edit. I just googled it and it seems that quite a few companies auto renew if you pay by direct debit.

Witcher · 23-11-2020 9:36pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

Is it not a mandatory court appearance for no insurance?

For clarity, what was the €80 fine for?

You're given 10 days to produce insurance and if/when you don't you're summonsed to appear in court.

Spook_ie · 23-11-2020 9:39pm

Well the driving without insurance is a courts appearance, 5 points, upto €5000 fine, outside chance of a prison sentence, consult a solicitor.

Not showing a valid disk should be the FCPN that you paid, solicitor would likely get that struck out if all was paid on time.

Failed to produce, I assume you produced evidence of insurance to get the car back from the pound, however, afaik you would still be required to produce at your nominated station, if you didn't produce then you're guilty, again refer it to a solicitor

Witcher · 23-11-2020 9:42pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

Well the driving without insurance is a courts appearance, 5 points, upto €5000 fine, outside chance of a prison sentence, consult a solicitor.

Not showing a valid disk should be the FCPN that you paid, solicitor would likely get that struck out if all was paid on time.

Failed to produce, I assume you produced evidence of insurance to get the car back from the pound, however, afaik you would still be required to produce at your nominated station, if you didn't produce then you're guilty, again refer it to a solicitor

The summons is in respect of failing to produce an insurance disc which covered him when he was stopped.

ibanez · 23-11-2020 9:44pm

Does the summons say section 56 of the road traffic act?

webs95 · 23-11-2020 9:46pm

Witcher wrote: »

You're given 10 days to produce insurance and if/when you don't you're summonsed to appear in court.

Thank you, appreciate the response, the only way I could get a release form from the gardai to get my car back was if I showed proof that the vehicle was insured. Which it was by then, gardai approved at the station and I’ve got a release from and got my car back... This was all on the same day I got the car seized... So that’s part of the reason I’m a little confused...

webs95 · 23-11-2020 9:47pm

ibanez wrote: »

Does the summons say section 56 of the road traffic act?

Yes 56 (1) & (3)

Witcher · 23-11-2020 9:50pm

webs95 wrote: »

Thank you, appreciate the response, the only way I could get a release form from the gardai to get my car back was if I showed proof that the vehicle was insured. Which it was by then, gardai approved at the station and I’ve got a release from and got my car back... This was all on the same day I got the car seized... So that’s part of the reason I’m a little confused...

But that policy wasn't in place when the car was seized from you.

You're given the 10 days to produce a certificate of insurance which covered you to drive the car at the time you were stopped. The new policy didn't cover you at that time so no valid proof of insurance was produced i.e. you were driving uninsured.

Spook_ie · 23-11-2020 9:51pm

Witcher wrote: »

The summons is in respect of failing to produce an insurance disc which covered him when he was stopped.

Surely the offence would be failing to display a valid disk which is dealt with by way of a FCPN of €60, claimed as paid.

Insurance
You must have motor insurance to drive a car in your own name or as a named driver on someone else's policy. If a Garda asks for your insurance certificate, you must provide it within 7 days. Offences for driving without insurance are prosecuted in court. Failure to display an insurance disk carries a fixed charge of €60 (rising to €90 after 28 days).

Failing to produce is a seperate offence, when you don't produce a certificate within 7 days.

Westernworld. · 23-11-2020 9:52pm

webs95 wrote: »

Thank you, appreciate the response, the only way I could get a release form from the gardai to get my car back was if I showed proof that the vehicle was insured. Which it was by then, gardai approved at the station and I’ve got a release from and got my car back... This was all on the same day I got the car seized... So that’s part of the reason I’m a little confused...

It can happen but did ya not even notice the disc out of date like?

webs95 · 23-11-2020 9:54pm

Westernworld. wrote: »

It can happen but did ya not even notice the disc out of date like?

I made a mistake, I’ll pay the consequences and I’ll be more careful next time. That’s all I can do I suppose. Thanks everyone for the speedy replies.

Witcher · 23-11-2020 9:55pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

Surely the offence would be failing to display a valid disk which is dealt with by way of a FCPN of €60, claimed as paid.

Insurance
You must have motor insurance to drive a car in your own name or as a named driver on someone else's policy. If a Garda asks for your insurance certificate, you must provide it within 7 days. Offences for driving without insurance are prosecuted in court. Failure to display an insurance disk carries a fixed charge of €60 (rising to €90 after 28 days).

Failing to produce is a seperate offence, when you don't produce a certificate within 7 days.

Failing to display a valid disc isn't the same as driving uninsured.

You're given 10 days to produce a valid certificate of insurance which covered you to drive the named vehicle at the time you were stopped.

The OP didn't have a valid policy in place, as per their post they renewed the policy and got the car back but the policy didn't cover them for the period when they were stopped and the car seized.

Failing to produce 10 days after being stopped is how uninsured driving is dealt with in every case.

ibanez · 23-11-2020 9:57pm

Okay, basically the garda is saying you had no insurance on the day. I'm not disputing you at all it's easily done.

Get yourself a solicitor for sure and explain things to them, they might contact the garda or the superintendent. Could help a lot on the day.

Spook_ie · 23-11-2020 9:58pm

webs95 wrote: »

Thank you, appreciate the response, the only way I could get a release form from the gardai to get my car back was if I showed proof that the vehicle was insured. Which it was by then, gardai approved at the station and I’ve got a release from and got my car back... This was all on the same day I got the car seized... So that’s part of the reason I’m a little confused...

Was this at the nominated station, where you were asked to produce or a different station?

Whatever the answer, it is still a solicitor job to add to the no insurance summons, he may get you leniency for the no production offence because you did present insurance to get the car back.

The driving without insurance is the big one as it's a yes/no question.

Spook_ie · 23-11-2020 10:03pm

Witcher wrote: »

Failing to display a valid disc isn't the same as driving uninsured.

You're given 10 days to produce a valid certificate of insurance which covered you to drive the named vehicle at the time you were stopped.

The OP didn't have a valid policy in place, as per their post they renewed the policy and got the car back but the policy didn't cover them for the period when they were stopped and the car seized.

Failing to produce 10 days after being stopped is how uninsured driving is dealt with in every case.

Correct, but unless i'm reading it wrongly he has a summons for not producing and a summons for failing to have on display, as yet there isn't a summons for driving without insurance

Witcher · 23-11-2020 10:07pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

Correct, but unless i'm reading it wrongly he has a summons for not producing and a summons for failing to have on display, as yet there isn't a summons for driving without insurance

His summons for not producing is his summons for driving without insurance.

There is a seperate summons for no insurance which could have come with the others but it makes no odds to the end result, he'll go before the court and he won't be able to provide a cert showing he was insured which will mean he'll be convicted anyway.

EndaHonesty · 23-11-2020 10:07pm

webs95 wrote: »

I made a mistake, I’ll pay the consequences and I’ll be more careful next time. That’s all I can do I suppose. Thanks everyone for the speedy replies.

Contact the Garda who summonsed you and explain the situation to him.
Based on how you've described the situation here, there's a very good chance he'll get the case dismissed.

Witcher · 23-11-2020 10:08pm

EndaHonesty wrote: »

Contact the Garda who summonsed you and explain the situation to him.
Based on how you've described the situation here, there's a very good chance he'll get the case dismissed.

He 100% will not, at the OP's own admission he had no insurance policy in force when he was stopped.

EndaHonesty · 23-11-2020 10:14pm

Witcher wrote: »

He 100% will not, at the OP's own admission he had no insurance policy in force when he was stopped.

If he explains the oversight, and showed how quickly he resolved the matter, the Garda will be well disposed to having the case dismissed.

Spend some time in court some day and see what they have to deal with.
A simple case like this where the accused admitted their error, had a genuine excuse and resolved the matter quickly and correctly, is a waste of court time.

KerryConnor · 23-11-2020 10:14pm

A few years ago something similar happened to me. I didn't realise the renewal date was passing and was driving for some weeks with no insurance as a consequence. I was v lucky that I noticed before being stopped or having an accident.
So easy to do, I feel for you. Try not to be too anxious - I'm sure they will see you are genuine and it will get sorted. Take care

Witcher · 23-11-2020 10:17pm

EndaHonesty wrote: »

If he explains the oversight, and showed how quickly he resolved the matter, the Garda will be well disposed to having the case dismissed.

Spend some time in court some day and see what they have to deal with.
A simple case like this where the accused admitted their error, had a genuine excuse and resolved the matter quickly and correctly, is a waste of court time.

Again, he 100% will not be striking it out in court.

Most fail to produce summonses are struck out as the person actually had a valid policy when the demand was made, forgot to produce and is summonsed. They then come before the courts, show the valid policy which covered them at the time of driving and the Garda and judge will be satisfied they were insured to drive and the Garda will request a strikeout.

The OP will not be able to provide proof of insurance to the court so the Garda will not be requesting a strikeout. 100%.

EndaHonesty · 23-11-2020 10:22pm

Witcher wrote: »

Again, he 100% will not be striking it out in court.

I'm in court plenty, this is how I know these things.

Most fail to produce summonses are struck out as the person actually had a valid policy when the demand was made, forgot to produce and is summonsed. They then come before the courts, show the valid policy which covered them at the time of driving and the Garda and judge will be satisfied they were insured to drive and the Garda will request a strikeout.

The OP will not be able to provide proof of insurance to the court so the Garda will not be reqirsting a strikeout. 100%.

OP has nothing to lose by speaking to the Garda, and IMO a very good chance of the issue being resolved without a court date.

kippy · 23-11-2020 10:22pm

I'd say they hear these types of excuses daily if not hourly.

A few things. Get a solicitor as mentioned. See what your options, if any are. Outside of that can't really give further advice on that aspect.

Now, back to not knowing your insurance had lapsed. I've not paid by direct debit for car insurance for over a decade but have been with the same provider for a long time, and another one prior to that. Every year without fail from every insurer I've been with I get a renewal notice and NCB cert via email. Same with car tax. NCT reminder is a different kettle of fish.

Now maybe it's different for direct debits or via a broker but I couldn't see why it would be different.....even from the insured point of view....why would you let these things roll over?

Any OP. You do appear genuine but you may have to take your lesson this time.
Things could be a lot worse, imagine getting in an accident during this time?

hullaballoo · 24-11-2020 12:57am

A crucial point that no one has mentioned so far is that the insurance question is moot. If you didn't cause any issues that would have a bearing on your insurance, like crashing your car into someone, during the period when you were uninsured, then there is no actual harm.

It's a case that a smart lawyer will have to make but it's a big one imo.

Get yourself a solicitor and a brief to show the court you're taking this seriously and it should be a minimal sanction. It won't be nothing but it ought to be no more than a lesson to you.

24-11-2020 1:16am

OP, you drove without insurance, and that's all the court will hear. You'll be done for it, and there's no getting away from it. No Garda in his right mind is going to go out of their way to get a case dismissed because you're a nice chap, even though they have you 100% caught.

However, the reason I'm pottering in, is to try and bring your expectations back to reality a bit..

Spook_ie wrote: »

Well the driving without insurance is a courts appearance, 5 points, upto €5000 fine, outside chance of a prison sentence, consult a solicitor.

There is NO chance of a prison sentence. None whatsoever. OP will be a first time offender, he'll get a fine of a couple of hundred euro and the judge will quickly move onto the next person.

hullaballoo wrote: »

A crucial point that no one has mentioned so far is that the insurance question is moot. If you didn't cause any issues that would have a bearing on your insurance, like crashing your car into someone, during the period when you were uninsured, then there is no actual harm.

That's not how car insurance works. If you're on public roads, you need insurance.

EDIT: For what it's worth - In Drogheda Court the go-to for no insurance is, assuming you're halfway decent and make an effort to show up, you get convicted and given a €300 fine. If you don't bother to show up, there's a 2 year ban added on aswell (but this is expected to be appealed, thus forcing you to go to the court). Obviously it changes from judge to judge and case to case, but that's the "norm" in that courthouse.

coylemj · 24-11-2020 3:34am

webs95 wrote: »

Yes 56 (1) & (3)

You've misread the summons, you've been summonsed for driving uninsured. What you claimed in your first post was that you were summonsed for failing to display a disc and failing to produce an insurance cert. at a Garda Station. Which are relatively minor offences.

S 56(1) and (3) refer to driving with no insurance. Which is a totally different beast. For which you will have no defence, because you were not insured. Do not show up in court without a solicitor.

Silly Gilly · 24-11-2020 4:08am

hullaballoo wrote: »

A crucial point that no one has mentioned so far is that the insurance question is moot. If you didn't cause any issues that would have a bearing on your insurance, like crashing your car into someone, during the period when you were uninsured, then there is no actual harm.

It's a case that a smart lawyer will have to make but it's a big one imo.

Get yourself a solicitor and a brief to show the court you're taking this seriously and it should be a minimal sanction. It won't be nothing but it ought to be no more than a lesson to you.

I have seen some poor takes on certain topics but this is up there with the worst. What sort of precedent would a judge be setting by being lenient because the driver caused "no actual harm" while uninsured?

Most people don't have accidents when insured so take your chances and you'll get a slap on the wrist if you're unlucky enough to be caught. Surely you can see the can of worms that opens.

Eggs For Dinner · 24-11-2020 8:39am

It would appear that the OP took out insurance in order to get his vehicle released back to him. I trust he disclosed that he had a pending prosecution when doing so, otherwise his troubles are not confined to his impending court case

Westernworld. · 24-11-2020 8:44am

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

It would appear that the OP took out insurance in order to get his vehicle released back to him. I trust he disclosed that he had a pending prosecution when doing so, otherwise his troubles are not confined to his impending court case

Ya he'd want to have a think about that one

Would he be better to cancel the policy now himself and restart when the court case is resolved rather than risking the insurance co cancelling it

Eggs For Dinner · 24-11-2020 9:08am

Westernworld. wrote: »

Ya he'd want to have a think about that one

Would he be better to cancel the policy now himself and restart when the court case is resolved rather than risking the insurance co cancelling it

He should contact the insurer and explain the situation in detail. If they are happy to maintain cover, grand. If not, he should ask that he voluntarily cancel the policy himself.

24-11-2020 9:18am

Deleted User wrote: »

....
, he'll get a fine of a couple of hundred euro and the judge will quickly move onto the next person.

That's not how car insurance works. If you're on public roads, you need insurance.

EDIT: For what it's worth - In Drogheda Court the go-to for no insurance is, assuming you're halfway decent and make an effort to show up, you get convicted and given a €300 fine. If you don't bother to show up, there's a 2 year ban added on aswell (but this is expected to be appealed, thus forcing you to go to the court). Obviously it changes from judge to judge and case to case, but that's the "norm" in that courthouse.

No points usually?

Westernworld. · 24-11-2020 9:19am

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

He should contact the insurer and explain the situation in detail. If they are happy to maintain cover, grand. If not, he should ask that he voluntarily cancel the policy himself.

Ya but that may not be wise as you know

That's going by the book

If.it was me I'd probably look to exit the policy myself before the court date

Eggs For Dinner · 24-11-2020 10:14am

Westernworld. wrote: »

Ya but that may not be wise as you know

That's going by the book

If.it was me I'd probably look to exit the policy myself before the court date

You're probably right.

BnB · 24-11-2020 11:24am

You made a mistake. Sheet happens.

Most important thing now by far is to get yourself a good local solicitor who has experience of the court, will know the judge and may know the guard.

If money is tight and you want to take a chance yourself then you have to remember, so much is dependent on the mood of the judge. He/She will have 100+ cases that day and you could have no more than 1 or 2 minutes to make your case. Essentially you have to persuade the judge that you are a decent person and this was just an honest mistake...which is easier said than done because that's what so many other people will be there to do also and the vast majority will be chancing their arm.

If I was going alone, I would bring my current insurance and my old insurance to show that it had only run out 12 days and once the Garda said it, you got a new one. It would also help if you had old certs or a letter from your insurance company to show that you have been insured without a break for x years. Again, that would strengthen your case that this was a genuine mistake.

Also, if you are going it alone, I would contact the Garda involved and try and bring that to him/her first. Again, if you can genuinely persuade them that you are decent and this was just a mistake, it would be a great help. Best case scenario (but highly unlikely) , they may get it struck out. But even if they don't, they may in the court confirm that they have seen the documents to show that you have been insured for x years etc and make the judges job easy to just hopefully give you a small fine and move on.

Also, don't worry about it. It seems very daunting because you're a decent person and haven't been in court before. But it really is nothing and the day of the court can actually be entertaining to see the line up of chancers and listen to their BS for the craic.

24-11-2020 1:50pm

Augeo wrote: »

No points usually?

I think you get 5 by default, and they are 'mandatory' in the sense that the judge cant give you any less or more.. which is why i probably never hear them mentioned.

Claw Hammer · 24-11-2020 2:07pm

Was a registered letter sent cancelling the old insurance?

kippy · 24-11-2020 2:13pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Was a registered letter sent cancelling the old insurance?

I think you'll find this isn't relevant at all.

Claw Hammer · 24-11-2020 2:15pm

kippy wrote: »

What relevance does this have - does it actually happen?

Before an insurer cancels a policy of insurance they are obliged to send a registered letter to the policy holder. Some people get off on this basis because the insurance companies are too mean to pay for a registered letter.

kippy · 24-11-2020 2:18pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Before an insurer cancels a policy of insurance they are obliged to send a registered letter to the policy holder. Some people get off on this basis because the insurance companies are too mean to pay for a registered letter.

This was not a cancellation though - the OP never renewed, so the contract term was up......

Claw Hammer · 24-11-2020 2:41pm

kippy wrote: »

This was not a cancellation though - the OP never renewed, so the contract term was up......

The insurance company still has to positively cancel cover.

Witcher · 24-11-2020 2:47pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The insurance company still has to positively cancel cover.

No they don't.

Eggs For Dinner · 24-11-2020 3:59pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The insurance company still has to positively cancel cover.

That's not correct.

BnB · 24-11-2020 4:00pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The insurance company still has to positively cancel cover.

Jesus H.. The madness of what people will write on an Internet forum. If you do not renew your annual insurance, the insurance company are NOT cancelling your policy. Your policy ends on the last date of insurance. If you renew, you are taking on a new policy for 12 months. If you do not renew, you're not, and your old expired policy means diddly squat.

Insurance companies will only send a registered letter of cancellation if your policy is cancelled mid-term for not paying a direct debit or something like that.

coylemj · 24-11-2020 4:37pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The insurance company still has to positively cancel cover.

But they're not cancelling anything. If you don't renew, your policy lapses. There are no days of grace and no requirement for either party to inform the other. At the stroke of midnight on the last day of cover, you are not insured and that's all there is to it.

And despite the fact that we call it a 'renewal', if you stay with the same insurer, legally it's a brand new contract of insurance. Which is why they send you a new schedule every year.

Witcher · 24-11-2020 5:08pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The insurance company still has to positively cancel cover.

hullaballoo wrote: »

A crucial point that no one has mentioned so far is that the insurance question is moot. If you didn't cause any issues that would have a bearing on your insurance, like crashing your car into someone, during the period when you were uninsured, then there is no actual harm.

It's a case that a smart lawyer will have to make but it's a big one imo.

Get yourself a solicitor and a brief to show the court you're taking this seriously and it should be a minimal sanction. It won't be nothing but it ought to be no more than a lesson to you.

Where do people get these ideas from?

Someone, somewhere just dreams up this stuff and it gets passed on, mental that people actually fall for this stuff.

Court date for no insurance.

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