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Irish Property Market chat II - *read mod note post #1 before posting*

13567…498

Comments

  • #102
    combat14
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭combat14


    Graham wrote: »
    I disagree.

    If anything I expect markets/economies to get pretty frothy over the next few years. A post-pandemic mini-boom if anything.

    Uk already warning their june reopening under threat with indian variant even though they are ahead of us on vaccinations ..

    full economic reopening still not gauranteed .. with house visits and market back to square one again if that happens


  • #103
    yagan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,558 ✭✭✭yagan


    Timing belt wrote: »
    The end result will be the same as it is the banks that are providing the lending the funds so if the funds go under the banks go under.
    Is it just banks lending this time?

    Banks are writing mortgages, but pension funds seem to be the main buyers this time.


  • #104
    Timing belt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,567 ✭✭✭Timing belt


    yagan wrote: »
    Is it just banks lending this time?

    Banks are writing mortgages, but pension funds seem to be the main buyers this time.

    Its not just pension funds Investing in property there are also investment funds that have borrowed from the banks...my point being that it ultimately ends up back at bank if there is lending on these properties. They might not be lending direct to developers but you can be assured they are lending to the fund that is funding the developer.


  • #105
    Villa05
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,726 ✭✭✭Villa05


    Timing belt wrote:
    I remember in 2006 talking to a top banker in the UK and him saying that the banks have had a good run and need to ensure that they are in a healthy position to deal with the oncoming property crash..... It was in 2008 I saw the same banker enter downing street on the sky news following the collapse of the banking system.


    All sounds eerily familiar

    Investment funds have had an incredible run and now set price for sale/rent that only government can pay it for social/affordable tennants

    Questionable regulation of their practices. I wonder are they planning for a crash it certainly looks like it to me

    Incredible amount of savings post CoVid mirroring SSIAs of 2006

    Shared ownership mirroring 110% mortgages

    20 year fixed rate mortgages great product for consumer mirroring tracker mortgages, note Avant have dropped their rates in response to the 20 year product

    Pent up demand

    Feels likke my de lorean has landed back in 06


  • #106
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,255 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    derekgine3 wrote: »
    Agreed, a huge crash will likely arrive in around 4-5 years. If people are not paying high rent they should park their hard earned savings in cash and some safe haven stocks and be ready to pounce.


    This insanity won't last forever and the biggest correction in history is coming, however, short term it does not look good.




    A crash may not happen in that timeframe if there is a lot of inflation. Under that scenario, those with parked cash will see its real value diminish and those with "high" mortgages now will see that inflated away.

    It is likely though that that worry is also driving the market currently


  • #107
    yagan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,558 ✭✭✭yagan


    Villa05 wrote: »
    Incredible amount of savings post CoVid mirroring SSIAs of 2006
    I'm sure it's been covered many times before but SSIA was a savings scheme, whereas PUP was a basic income.

    In the USA on the other hand every home, regardless of how wealthy or poor they were got stimulus cheques.

    In relation to 2006 at that stage the banks were approving 110% mortgages so the SSIA savings boost wasn't even relevant.

    PUP savings of people without mortgages or rent has probably already gone on a new car.


  • #108
    Timing belt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,567 ✭✭✭Timing belt


    Donald Trump wrote: »
    A crash may not happen in that timeframe if there is a lot of inflation. Under that scenario, those with parked cash will see its real value diminish and those with "high" mortgages now will see that inflated away.

    It is likely though that that worry is also driving the market currently

    If there is to much inflation then yield on gov bonds rise causing the stock market to crash and a drop in most asset prices as investors chase yield by investing back in the bond market. Central banks won’t be able to undertake QE to lower yields as that will lead to more inflation. Whether this would lead to a drop in house prices is unlikely as the yield is still significantly higher


  • #109
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,575 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    yagan wrote: »
    I'm sure it's been covered many times before but SSIA was a savings scheme, whereas PUP was a basic income.

    In the USA on the other hand every home, regardless of how wealthy or poor they were got stimulus cheques.

    In relation to 2006 at that stage the banks were approving 110% mortgages so the SSIA savings boost wasn't even relevant.

    PUP savings of people without mortgages or rent has probably already gone on a new car.

    The savings boost is not down to PUP. It's the employed not spending on commuting and holidays, to over simplify it


  • #110
    derekgine3
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 52 ✭✭derekgine3


    Donald Trump wrote: »
    A crash may not happen in that timeframe if there is a lot of inflation. Under that scenario, those with parked cash will see its real value diminish and those with "high" mortgages now will see that inflated away.

    It is likely though that that worry is also driving the market currently


    Interest rates hiked up in response to said inflation will start the crash, imo.

    Agreed, the worry is the "brainwashed/ignorant" money desperately trying to get on the ladder before "it's too late", now where have i heard that before? Albeit the situation is different and the worry is inflation and being priced out and i sympathize with those stuck paying high rent.

    Those that are in no rush to purchase but are buying now need their head examined. Smart money is leaving the market in their droves to take profit before the next crash, which may take a few years. Either way, supply with outstrip demand within half a decade, that coupled with interest rate hikes will spark a mass global recession, worse than the GFC, imo.


  • #111
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    derekgine3 wrote: »
    Interest rates hiked up in response to said inflation will start the crash, imo.

    There will be no inflation.
    Inflation is song of media to make people spend money.
    People in USA during Great Depression was working for 2 bucks per month even when billions been printed.
    The next thing rich people who buy politicians does not want inflation because them money will worth nothing
    Any economy rules does not work anymore
    Also ECB has good experience from those times when recession started in 2008 and they lifted rates killing the Europe economy after
    Believe me they learned this lesson very well
    For those who does not remember we had 2 recessions the first one in 2008 and the next one in 2013.
    The inflation is the media weapon to make people spend them money trying tell them if they will not spend then them money will worth nothing.
    But in reality if people will not spend them savings we will have deflation
    Did you forget what media was singing in 2007 ? Buy property now because it is best time and if you will not inflation will eat your savings ?
    Why banks in Ireland try put people on Fixed rate for 20 years if rates will up ? Did anybody think about it ?
    People never learn.


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  • #112
    yagan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,558 ✭✭✭yagan


    Revolution 1917 wrote: »
    There will be no inflation.
    Inflation is song of media to make people spend money.
    People in USA during Great Depression was working for 2 bucks per month even when billions been printed.
    The next thing rich people who buy politicians does not want inflation because them money will worth nothing
    Any economy rules does not work anymore
    Also ECB has good experience from those times when recession started in 2008 and they lifted rates after that killing the Europe economy
    Believe me they learned this lesson very well
    For those who does not remember we had 2 recessions the first one in 2008 and the next one in 2013.
    The inflation is the media weapon to make people spend them money trying tell them if they will not spend then them money will worth nothing.
    But in reality is people will not spend them savings we will have deflation
    Did you forget what media was singing in 2007 ? Buy property now because it is best time and if you will not inflation will eat your savings ?
    Why banks in Ireland try put people on Fixed rate for 20 years if rates will up ? Did anybody think about it ?
    People never learn.
    I've been thinking similar thoughts, however I do think real commodity inflation will happen but over a longer period.

    It was really noticeable how commodities picked up again once China started reopening, and then stayed up even as the USA and Europe went back into the winter lockdowns.

    There is logjam inflation that will settle down as production catches up with demand, but in reality it's no longer the west setting the pace and if that pace increases consumers will feel it.

    If older people whose only exposure to the internet has been Facebook start asking about Bitcoin then their savings aren't going to help much.


  • #113
    Cyrus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,237 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    Sale agreed already

    Interested to see what the price was but can't say I'm surprised

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/sheemore-1-cunningham-road-dalkey-county-dublin/4495891&ved=2ahUKEwiY4f7ioszwAhXhoXEKHdNPAPgQFjAFegQIDxAC&usg=AOvVaw2OHsC9bffGj-v_nTQZM6Fu


  • #114
    derekgine3
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 52 ✭✭derekgine3


    Revolution 1917 wrote: »
    There will be no inflation.
    Inflation is song of media to make people spend money.
    People in USA during Great Depression was working for 2 bucks per month even when billions been printed.
    The next thing rich people who buy politicians does not want inflation because them money will worth nothing
    Any economy rules does not work anymore
    Also ECB has good experience from those times when recession started in 2008 and they lifted rates killing the Europe economy after
    Believe me they learned this lesson very well
    For those who does not remember we had 2 recessions the first one in 2008 and the next one in 2013.
    The inflation is the media weapon to make people spend them money trying tell them if they will not spend then them money will worth nothing.
    But in reality if people will not spend them savings we will have deflation
    Did you forget what media was singing in 2007 ? Buy property now because it is best time and if you will not inflation will eat your savings ?
    Why banks in Ireland try put people on Fixed rate for 20 years if rates will up ? Did anybody think about it ?
    People never learn.




    That is a very good point and something i have considered but having seen prices rise in many areas of life so far (some of which may be due to supply issues) i was leaning towards inflation but you make some good points.


    I don't for a minute trust the banks or government, they certainly don't have the people's best interests in mind with this 20 year fixed rate.


    The only way i see deflation is if the velocity of money remains very low (which could easily happen). Either way, if inflation does occur it will not be by some sort of post pandemic boom, it will be due to the money printing artificially rising prices of various asset classes.


    Those hoping for a post covid boom will be severely disappointed, many jobs will not return, banks will be stricter with lending to average joe, once government supports are withdrawn sh1t will hit the fan and confidence will dip to near all time low.


  • #115
    Timing belt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,567 ✭✭✭Timing belt


    derekgine3 wrote: »
    That is a very good point and something i have considered but having seen prices rise in many areas of life so far (some of which may be due to supply issues) i was leaning towards inflation but you make some good points.


    I don't for a minute trust the banks or government, they certainly don't have the people's best interests in mind with this 20 year fixed rate.


    The only way i see deflation is if the velocity of money remains very low (which could easily happen). Either way, if inflation does occur it will not be by some sort of post pandemic boom, it will be due to the money printing artificially rising prices of various asset classes.


    Those hoping for a post covid boom will be severely disappointed, many jobs will not return, banks will be stricter with lending to average joe, once government supports are withdrawn sh1t will hit the fan and confidence will dip to near all time low.

    Since when did the CPI included Asset classes? The inflation people are talking and measured via the CPI does not include assets/investments.

    The velocity of money is low because of the QE and printing of money.... There is more money in circulation so it doesn't circulate as much. Once Central banks start tapering their QE they will be pulling cash out of circulation and the velocity of money should start to increase.

    Finally how is a 20 year fixed rate mortgage a bad think especially when rates are at a historical low... Are you expecting them to go lower?


  • #116
    Cyrus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,237 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    Hubertj wrote: »
    How long was it up for?. House could do with some upgrades but is a really nice setting

    4 to 5 weeks so pretty short given the price point!


  • #117
    janandbren
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭janandbren


    Thoughts on story broke this morning by Killian Woods on the business post? The state itself investing in the cuckoo funds? Though I'm completely shocked by it myself, I feel this board where I have to admit is my first time posting, has replaced all my reading of social media so I appreciate all of the wide range of opinions from you all! Came straight on here to see the chat but maybe I'm too early?


  • #118
    Woah
    Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭Woah


    janandbren wrote: »
    Thoughts on story broke this morning by Killian Woods on the business post? The state itself investing in the cuckoo funds? Though I'm completely shocked by it myself, I feel this board where I have to admit is my first time posting, has replaced all my reading of social media so I appreciate all of the wide range of opinions from you all! Came straight on here to see the chat but maybe I'm too early?

    Would have been outraged/upset over it but at this stage nothing surprises me.


  • #119
    Zenify
    Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭Zenify


    I'm not a subscriber so couldn't read the entire story but this looks like madness. I'm sure a lot of other media will pick up on it too during the day.


  • #120
    Ozark707
    Registered Users Posts: 953 ✭✭✭Ozark707


    Zenify wrote: »
    I'm not a subscriber so couldn't read the entire story but this looks like madness. I'm sure a lot of other media will pick up on it too during the day.

    It just gets worse and worse for the government on this. This coupled with the constant drip feed of articles on how people are forced into non optimum solutions (such as moving home in their 30's) is ensuring this will stay top billing. Question for me is there any quick wins at all the government can get. Personally I can't see it and if rents go back up quickly... oh boy.


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  • #121
    Zenify
    Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭Zenify


    I just read the full article and it is shocking. Absolutely crazy. It lists all the homes they've snapped up amd all the state funding they've got that was supposed to be for building houses.

    This was also a shocking statement:

     Urbeo was co-founded by Bill Nowlan, who is widely credited with the introduction of the favourable tax framework now enjoyed by real estate investment trusts (Reits) in Ireland. The firm is not registered as a Reit, a system set up in Ireland to provide institutional residential investors with tax breaks. Nowlan led the Irish Reits Forum to promote the introduction of Reits. Introduced by the Finance Act 2013, a Reit is an Irish resident company which sources at least three-quarters of its income from leasing property. These firms are exempted from paying corporation tax on rental income and do not pay capital gains tax on property disposals.

    Government taking advise from the very people who are profiting from said advise. This should not be allowed.


  • #122
    LeakyLime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 83 ✭✭LeakyLime


    janandbren wrote: »
    Thoughts on story broke this morning by Killian Woods on the business post? The state itself investing in the cuckoo funds? Though I'm completely shocked by it myself, I feel this board where I have to admit is my first time posting, has replaced all my reading of social media so I appreciate all of the wide range of opinions from you all! Came straight on here to see the chat but maybe I'm too early?


    Thank god for the SBP - the only paper I subscribe to at the moment. They are doing trojan work on this and long may they continue to expose the FG's disastrous housing policy. Leo and Paschal still trying to defend the role of investors up until now, as if a line was crossed just recently. Today's example is from 2019.



    Also, the SBP can't be written off as some left-leaning paper with an agenda. It's tax payers money that is being gifted to private funds - this should concern left and right alike.


  • #123
    ongarite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,279 ✭✭✭ongarite


    It's not surprising but a direct consequence of public pressure pre COVID.
    It comes down to who gets priority for new housing supply in desirable areas.

    It used to be that we demanded that the public housing waiting list was reduced.
    REIT bought up estates and block rented them back to the council or State's many housing charities.
    Mullen Park was not different than above as Tuath was going to be the purchaser of the estate but pulled out.

    Once, a private company buys the estate instead all hell breaks loose in the press.
    Why do Tuath and other State controlled arms get away with no consequence when they have taken away demand from first time buyers for years too?


  • #124
    Thomasirl123
    Registered Users Posts: 138 ✭✭Thomasirl123


    "the minister is understood to be proposing legislation to the effect that a further “between 30pc to 50pc” of future housing estates be available for first-time buyers only"

    https://m.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/revealed-first-time-buyers-to-get-half-of-new-build-houses-40430770.html

    More meddling than will somehow increase prices! The developer will prob increase prices so that ftbs can't/won't pay and then get to sell them off to a fund.

    Why is there such heavy emphasis on ftb? Once you're on the ladder the housing market problems go away? It's all optics, little effort but gets a headline


  • #125
    tommyombomb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 261 ✭✭tommyombomb


    Anyone pi$$ed off with gov on how they are proposing legislation on cuckoo funds. New rules on house builds which will have planning rules that first time buyers need to be allowed to purchase but business as usual for apartments/high density units. No thought or care for single buyers��


  • #126
    Marius34
    Registered Users Posts: 1,173 ✭✭✭Marius34


    Thomasirl123 wrote: »
    "the minister is understood to be proposing legislation to the effect that a further “between 30pc to 50pc” of future housing estates be available for first-time buyers only"

    https://m.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/revealed-first-time-buyers-to-get-half-of-new-build-houses-40430770.html

    More meddling than will somehow increase prices! The developer will prob increase prices so that ftbs can't/won't pay and then get to sell them off to a fund.

    Why is there such heavy emphasis on ftb? Once you're on the ladder the housing market problems go away? It's all optics, little effort but gets a headline

    If you see from previous post of this forum, there is an anger that to little share of new builds goes to FTB. As I understand from the article, the idea is to increase it.


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  • #127
    PropQueries
    Registered Users Posts: 2,203 ✭✭✭PropQueries


    ongarite wrote: »
    It's not surprising but a direct consequence of public pressure pre COVID.
    It comes down to who gets priority for new housing supply in desirable areas.

    It used to be that we demanded that the public housing waiting list was reduced.
    REIT bought up estates and block rented them back to the council or State's many housing charities.
    Mullen Park was not different than above as Tuath was going to be the purchaser of the estate but pulled out.

    Once, a private company buys the estate instead all hell breaks loose in the press.
    Why do Tuath and other State controlled arms get away with no consequence when they have taken away demand from first time buyers for years too?

    The SBP also reports today that:

    "Social Democrats TD Catherine Murphy says it’s time for the state to halt these type of long-term leasing deals for social housing" and uses another recent example:

    "The Heron Wood estate in Cabinteely village in south Co Dublin has been put on the market at a proposed rent of €800,000 a year. Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown Council is now negotiating to lease out all 34 apartments and houses in the estate for 25 years".

    It's good that she's raising attention to this issue but the councils are also very active in buying, leasing, renting homes in the second-hand market and that has as much if not a bigger impact on the ability of many FTB's being able to purchase any home at all either new build or second-hand IMO

    This appears to be a Government decision to place much of the cost of the last crash entirely on a generation that had absolutely nothing to do with it IMO. On top of the housing issue, has any of the debt associated with the last crash being paid off or are they going to throw that cost onto this generation of FTBs as well? It hasn't and it looks like that's the plan as well IMO

    This is even more important with RTE reporting today that "An entire generation in their 20s and 30s are worse off than their parents. It is taken from the ESRI research which found that a decade of stagnant wages and higher housing costs have upended the inter-generational contract, with millenials the first group in a long time to be left behind by the march to prosperity."

    Link to SBP article here: https://www.businesspost.ie/houses/council-plans-to-lease-estate-for-more-than-cost-to-buy-cb9f05ad

    Link to RTE article here: https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/0514/1221721-ireland-politics-analysis/


  • #128
    SmokyMo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 311 ✭✭SmokyMo


    I refuse to believe this mess due incompetence. Core driver is corruption.


  • #129
    yagan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,558 ✭✭✭yagan


    SmokyMo wrote: »
    I refuse to believe this mess due incompetence. Core driver is corruption.
    Greed. It's policy sculpted by landlord TDs.


  • #130
    Villa05
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,726 ✭✭✭Villa05


    PropQueries wrote:
    This is even more important with RTE reporting today that "An entire generation in their 20s and 30s are worse off than their parents. It is taken from the ESRI research which found that a decade of stagnant wages and higher housing costs have upended the inter-generational contract, with millenials the first group in a long time to be left behind by the march to prosperity."


    Effectively the generation that was least culpable for the mess the country found itself in suffers the most because government policy wants high priced housing.

    The bill for the mess was passed on for generations to come

    When we were a poor nation we exiled our children and when we became a wealthy nation, we yet again exiled our children

    Failed state


  • #131
    LeakyLime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 83 ✭✭LeakyLime


    Quotes from the SBP article:


    "Ultimate control for Ireland's stake in the fund [Urbeo] lies with Paschal Donohoe. So if you follow the roundabout Donohoe is the Minister examining rules that would crack down on activity of funds he is ultimately funding".



    Also "Government policy to lease social homes (25 year leases) from institutional investors is partly fuelling the activity of institutional funds". The funds are willing to pay more for properties than they are worth on open market because their primary concern is annual yield.



    Government is driving up the price of properties for everyone.


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  • #132
    Browney7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,100 ✭✭✭Browney7


    janandbren wrote: »
    Thoughts on story broke this morning by Killian Woods on the business post? The state itself investing in the cuckoo funds? Though I'm completely shocked by it myself, I feel this board where I have to admit is my first time posting, has replaced all my reading of social media so I appreciate all of the wide range of opinions from you all! Came straight on here to see the chat but maybe I'm too early?

    This isn't new news. Information has been there if people were bothered to look

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=115421513

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=117138002

    Great stuff from the business post calling out this economic illiteracy


  • #133
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,100 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    SmokyMo wrote: »
    I refuse to believe this mess due incompetence. Core driver is corruption.

    I don't believe it is necessarily corruption or even incompetence. I think it is simply the squeaky wheel getting the oil. The opposition and the press were screaming about the homeless and social housing so the government took care of it by throwing money at it. These long term leases are stupid from a financial perspective but it is a quick way to ease the social housing lists. Thankfully, the opposition and media are screaming about the housing issue for the rest of us who can't get social housing. Hopefully it leads to something being done about it and making rents and house prices more affordable.


  • #134
    PropQueries
    Registered Users Posts: 2,203 ✭✭✭PropQueries


    Browney7 wrote: »
    This isn't new news. Information has been there if people were bothered to look

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=115421513

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=117138002

    Great stuff from the business post calling out this economic illiteracy

    Fair play to the SBP on this alright. I think a big issue over the past number of years and it showed it's head over the past few weeks as well is the apparent doublespeak from our elected representatives using terms like "deliver" etc. in relation to social housing when what they were and still are planning to do is outbid many other private citizens for homes in both the new-build and second-hand home market through buying, leasing, renting.

    Then, they twist the percentages with Leo in the Dail during the week appearing to take credit for our overall c. 65% - 70% home ownership rate as if that has anything at all to do either with him or with the current issue.

    Also, from what I gather (not really watching it until the final proposals will be on the table), the proposed planning changes for allowing FTBs to purchase homes in new built housing estates may only apply to future planning permissions which may mean absolutely no benefit to current FTBs etc. for the foreseeable future. I'm open to correction on that one though and maybe someone can clarify if that's the apparent proposal to "help" FTBs?


  • #135
    Murph85
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,067 ✭✭✭Murph85


    The rip offing term leases are a scandal. The state needs a housing body, that builds itself. Stop the local authorities leasing or buying from the market, or at least during rip off prices periods...

    Their laziness and incompetence is a disgrace... also the housing crisis is going to get far worse, it has too... planning and endless court appeals, will have to be tackled immediately of they are in any way serious about reform, and the only reason they are now begrudgingly doing it or might do it, is due to the gun to the head...


  • #136
    Zenify
    Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭Zenify


    I've never been to a protest before. I've never been motivated enough, but I'm ready to take to the streets as soon as we are allowed!

    Hopefully we can get a movement going because we all know whatever measures they come up with next week will be insufficient.


  • #137
    PropQueries
    Registered Users Posts: 2,203 ✭✭✭PropQueries


    Brantley Ambitious Sunburn wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/Orla_Hegarty/status/1393863368872714240


    is this.... props?

    No, but she's posted some good examples :). One is the Cluain Beag, Clonard, Co. Wexford development with 2-beds at €175k and 3 beds at €205k. So, it looks like the proposed "affordable" housing bill putting a max price of €225k on new built homes in Co. Tipperary wasn't off the mark. It also shows that the "affordable" home prices for Dublin at c. €450k are basically a subsidy to whoever owns the site and has very little to do with the cost of build (excl. land) IMO

    According the the property listing of one of her examples, these A-rated homes will feature:

    - 10 year homebond guarantee
    - Zoned natural gas fired central heating
    - High performance, double glazed PVC windows and patio doors
    - High quality fitted kitchens
    - Stylish contemporary bathrooms and shower rooms
    - Tiling to bathrooms
    - Wired for telephone and broadband
    - Photovoltic panels
    - Fully painted internally
    - Gardens ready for seeding and cultivation
    - Landscaped open space

    Link to development on Daft.ie here: https://www.daft.ie/new-home-for-sale/cluain-beag-clonard-co-wexford/2569199


  • #138
    Amadan Dubh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭Amadan Dubh


    janandbren wrote: »
    Thoughts on story broke this morning by Killian Woods on the business post? The state itself investing in the cuckoo funds? Though I'm completely shocked by it myself, I feel this board where I have to admit is my first time posting, has replaced all my reading of social media so I appreciate all of the wide range of opinions from you all! Came straight on here to see the chat but maybe I'm too early?

    Quite simply, another indication that the housing market is a bubble and the worry is once again that the tax payers and mortgage holders are going to get hurt; tax payers have contributed to it as we are the ones who contribute to the exchequer this cash which has been funnelled into creating the bubble and mortgage holders have been forced to take out 30/35 year, 80/90% mortgages to make sure prices stayed high.

    Prices hitting 80% of their Celtic Tiger highs should tell us all we need to know. But due to mortgage borrowing limits and salaries being ruled out as a reason for the huge rise in house prices, something else has been pumping them up - the State itself! Absolute insanity and there is no way to unwind this mess in an orderly manner. However, one thing is clear, it doesn't look good.

    Edit: I think it would be too embarrassing for the State to turn around and admit it was wrong and it would also be aware of the strong covenants in its 25 year leases which would result in it being sued if it tried to unwind these ridiculous measures. This is why there is no way to wind down the policy in an orderly manner.


  • #139
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,974 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    janandbren wrote: »
    Thoughts on story broke this morning by Killian Woods on the business post? The state itself investing in the cuckoo funds? Though I'm completely shocked by it myself, I feel this board where I have to admit is my first time posting, has replaced all my reading of social media so I appreciate all of the wide range of opinions from you all! Came straight on here to see the chat but maybe I'm too early?

    Is that the NTMA if it is its investment is completely independent of Government.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • #140
    Cyrus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,237 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    PropQueries wrote: »
    No, but she's posted some good examples :). One is the Cluain Beag, Clonard, Co. Wexford development with 2-beds at €175k and 3 beds at €205k. So, it looks like the proposed "affordable" housing bill putting a max price of €225k on new built homes in Co. Tipperary wasn't off the mark. It also shows that the "affordable" home prices for Dublin at c. €450k are basically a subsidy to whoever owns the site and has very little to do with the cost of build (excl. land) IMO

    According the the property listing of one of her examples, these A-rated homes will feature:

    - 10 year homebond guarantee
    - Zoned natural gas fired central heating
    - High performance, double glazed PVC windows and patio doors
    - High quality fitted kitchens
    - Stylish contemporary bathrooms and shower rooms
    - Tiling to bathrooms
    - Wired for telephone and broadband
    - Photovoltic panels
    - Fully painted internally
    - Gardens ready for seeding and cultivation
    - Landscaped open space

    Link to development on Daft.ie here: https://www.daft.ie/new-home-for-sale/cluain-beag-clonard-co-wexford/2569199

    Land is more desirable in Dublin hence its more expensive why is that a surprise ?


  • #141
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Great reporting by the SBP once again.


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  • #142
    PropQueries
    Registered Users Posts: 2,203 ✭✭✭PropQueries


    Cyrus wrote: »
    Land is more desirable in Dublin hence its more expensive why is that a surprise ?


    Would make sense if there was indeed a shortage of land to build on in either Dublin City or County. I think anyone commuting from the suburbs (pre-covid) would disagree IMO


  • #143
    Zenify
    Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭Zenify


    Cyrus wrote: »
    Land is more desirable in Dublin hence its more expensive why is that a surprise ?

    The argument from many vested interests is that it is impossible to build houses any cheaper in Dublim. That is why at lot of their suggestions is to put more money into the demand side. However, If we reduce the amount of demand eg remove the funds the price of land will drop and so will the cost of property.


  • #144
    Cyrus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,237 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    Zenify wrote: »
    The argument from many vested interests is that it is impossible to build houses any cheaper in Dublim. That is why at lot of their suggestions is to put more money into the demand side. However, If we reduce the amount of demand eg remove the funds the price of land will drop and so will the cost of property.

    Why were houses in Dublin more expensive prior to funds ?


  • #145
    Cyrus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,237 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    PropQueries wrote: »
    Would make sense if there was indeed a shortage of land to build on in either Dublin City or County. I think anyone commuting from the suburbs (pre-covid) would disagree IMO

    Shortage is debatable but there is a finite supply and a greater demand for it wouldn't you agree ?

    Or should a 3 bed semi d in ballsbridge sell for 275k?


  • #146
    PropQueries
    Registered Users Posts: 2,203 ✭✭✭PropQueries


    Zenify wrote: »
    The argument from many vested interests is that it is impossible to build houses any cheaper in Dublim. That is why at lot of their suggestions is to put more money into the demand side. However, If we reduce the amount of demand eg remove the funds the price of land will drop and so will the cost of property.

    It's also amazing how they "find" land to build on in the City Centre when they need the cash.

    For example, RTE was able to sell a part of their Donnybrook site for €100Million to Cairn Homes a few years ago and Dublin Bus is currently examining how to develop its prime property sites.

    It's hardly a coincidence that these prime sites come into play when e.g. RTE has revenue problems and CIE has a c. €1 Billion pension deficit.

    There's real solutions but it appears they're only found only when it directly benefits the wages/pensions of public sector bodies IMO

    Link to CIE development plans here: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/dublin-bus-to-examine-developing-its-prime-property-sites-1.4500089


  • #147
    Villa05
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,726 ✭✭✭Villa05


    Cyrus wrote:
    Land is more desirable in Dublin hence its more expensive why is that a surprise ?


    Why would the state as the largest owner of land in Dublin and elsewhere be entering long term leases at the most expensive rate ever seen in this country ?

    This is why housing unaffordability has been taken to new levels.
    Land is only an issue because the system made it an issue. It can be easily resolved


  • #148
    Cyrus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,237 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    PropQueries wrote: »
    It's also amazing how they "find" land to build on in the City Centre when they need the cash.

    For example, RTE was able to sell a part of their Donnybrook site for €100Million to Cairn Homes a few years ago and Dublin Bus is currently examining on how developing its prime property sites.

    It's hardly a coincidence that these prime sites come into play when e.g. RTE has revenue problems and CIE has a c. €1 Billion pension deficit.

    There's real solutions but it appears they're only found only when it directly benefits the wages/pensions of public sector bodies IMO

    Link to CIE development plans here: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/dublin-bus-to-examine-developing-its-prime-property-sites-1.4500089

    But why did cairn pay 100m for it ? I thought there was no shortage if that's the case why pay 100m for a site .


  • #149
    Cyrus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,237 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    Villa05 wrote: »
    Why would the state as the largest owner of land in Dublin and elsewhere be entering long term leases at the most expensive rate ever seen in this country ?

    This is why housing unaffordability has been taken to new levels.
    Land is only an issue because the system made it an issue. It can be easily resolved

    Is unaffordability at new levels ?

    What country is there where land sells for the same price regardless of location?


  • #150
    PropQueries
    Registered Users Posts: 2,203 ✭✭✭PropQueries


    Cyrus wrote: »
    Shortage is debatable but there is a finite supply and a greater demand for it wouldn't you agree ?

    Or should a 3 bed semi d in ballsbridge sell for 275k?

    Yes. Of course it should IMO. We're an extremely low population density island off an island off europe. I don't see how any standard 3-bed anywhere in Ireland costs any more than c. €150k IMO


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  • #151
    Cyrus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,237 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    PropQueries wrote: »
    Yes. Of course it should IMO. We're an extremely low population density island off an island off europe. I don't see how any standard 3-bed anywhere in Ireland costs any more than c. €150k IMO

    I remember now why I stopped replying to your posts thanks for reminding me.


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