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New pre-wired alarm

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  • 18-06-2020 11:33pm
    #1
    bifl
    Registered Users Posts: 222 ✭✭


    Hi Folks,
    So here is the current landscape versus and what I think I need. Options and opinions appreciated :)

    I'm in a new house and pre-wired for alarm. I want a broadband and gsm solution. Not sure of my gsm connection so want external gsm aerial (i presume) and also a parallel broadband connection.

    Got quotes off local companies. Most seem to be pushing HKC. Most seem to be trying the yearly maintenance charge for various reasons (faults, call outs servicing etc).

    Afer some pressesing (based on a friends recommednation) some will quote Vanderbilt. Some will back off on the yearly servicing. I only want an if needed call out.

    I want a future proofed solution on an alarm system such as poe camera, home alarm, gates, andriod phone app etc. Maybe not today but maybe for tomorrow. All options on HKC and Vanderbilt sensors and control panels don't seem to be a whole lot different to what you would get 20 years ago.

    I did see a thread on this forum and moved to IOT forum, on a wireless Ajax system which seemed to be modern. At the same time I've seen comments basically saying if you are wired go wired.

    So in short what would be good recommendation for a good future proofed wired, integrated alarm system ?


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    #2
    kub
    Registered Users Posts: 6,528 ✭✭✭kub


    Hi, absolutely go with the wired system as the house is already prewired, I take it that the wiring is to the perimeter windows and doors ?




    I can confirm firstly that HKC have a solution to offer if there is GSM coverage issues at the location of your control panel, a remote unit which the GSM module can be plugged into and housed within, could be fitted for example to an elevated position such as an attic.
    I do not like the idea of an external antenna as you are bringing a vital component of your security system out beyond the perimeter of it.


    As regards installers and ongoing maintenance, as per EN 50131 then they are obliged to offer same, you do not have to take it up, but after 12 months your system will be deemed not to comply with same, by the big wigs that is.


    The reason most companies would push HKC is that, it is the most popular brand and ticks the most boxes on a domestic installation compared with other manufacturers.


    HKC systems can integrate with automatic gates, Hikvision CCTV systems, Home automation systems and their App is the best around.




    As regards your comparsion to 20 years ago and as to what is on offer from HKC / Vanderbilt etc.
    That is because in this country we have maintained the design of perimeter type intruder alarm systems, where as for example in the UK, they use PIR coverage mostly, having moved away from using, for example inertia shock sensors, decades ago.



    I have yet to come across one of these home automation systems that offer the same level of security as a traditionally designed domestic Intruder Alarm system.


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    #3
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,532 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    kub wrote: »
    I have yet to come across one of these home automation systems that offer the same level of security as a traditionally designed domestic Intruder Alarm system.

    Have you come across the Comfort CYTech alarm systems? They have all of the features that HCK have and are also certified to EN50131.

    Unlike “traditional” alarms they offer real home automation with a far more sophisticated app.

    See website:
    http://www.cytech.biz/

    They have a dedicated forum, see link:
    https://www.comfortforums.com/

    @ bifl: The IoT forum has a number of threads and posts on smart alarms:
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1777

    Although I have a lot of home automation going on my personal belief is that intruder alarms and HA are best kept separate for a number of reasons including cost, compatibility and simplicity. For thy reason I have a HKC alarm which I find very solid although the app is very clunky.

    However, the trend I am seeing is to self installed “smart” alarms. Many are substandard (in my opinion) but there are some exceptions such as the one above and the Ajax system (see thread on IoT forum).

    Good luck with whatever you decide.


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    #4
    kub
    Registered Users Posts: 6,528 ✭✭✭kub


    2011 wrote: »
    Have you come across the Comfort CYTech alarm systems? They have all of the features that HCK have and are also certified to EN50131.

    Unlike “traditional” alarms they offer real home automation with a far more sophisticated app.

    See website:
    http://www.cytech.biz/

    They have a dedicated forum, see link:
    https://www.comfortforums.com/

    @ bifl: The IoT forum has a number of threads and posts on smart alarms:
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1777

    Although I have a lot of home automation going on my personal belief is that intruder alarms and HA are best kept separate for a number of reasons including cost, compatibility and simplicity. For thy reason I have a HKC alarm which I find very solid although the app is very clunky.

    However, the trend I am seeing is to self installed “smart” alarms. Many are substandard (in my opinion) but there are some exceptions such as the one above and the Ajax system (see thread on IoT forum).

    Good luck with whatever you decide.


    Thanks 2011, yes home automation is wonderful and the way of the future but I have yet to see one that offers as much as a dedicated professional security system.


  • Options
    #5
    bifl
    Registered Users Posts: 222 ✭✭bifl


    kub wrote: »
    Hi, absolutely go with the wired system as the house is already prewired, I take it that the wiring is to the perimeter windows and doors ?




    I can confirm firstly that HKC have a solution to offer if there is GSM coverage issues at the location of your control panel, a remote unit which the GSM module can be plugged into and housed within, could be fitted for example to an elevated position such as an attic.
    I do not like the idea of an external antenna as you are bringing a vital component of your security system out beyond the perimeter of it.


    As regards installers and ongoing maintenance, as per EN 50131 then they are obliged to offer same, you do not have to take it up, but after 12 months your system will be deemed not to comply with same, by the big wigs that is.


    The reason most companies would push HKC is that, it is the most popular brand and ticks the most boxes on a domestic installation compared with other manufacturers.


    HKC systems can integrate with automatic gates, Hikvision CCTV systems, Home automation systems and their App is the best around.




    As regards your comparsion to 20 years ago and as to what is on offer from HKC / Vanderbilt etc.
    That is because in this country we have maintained the design of perimeter type intruder alarm systems, where as for example in the UK, they use PIR coverage mostly, having moved away from using, for example inertia shock sensors, decades ago.



    I have yet to come across one of these home automation systems that offer the same level of security as a traditionally designed domestic Intruder Alarm system.

    Thanks for the feedback folks, much appreciated.

    Sorry when I think about it I'm wired for PIRs but not to the windows so I will need a hybrid capable of wired and wireless. I movable GSM soloution sounds what I need. As you say you can kep it internal and i can move it to parts of the house thath have good signal (it's just not where my contorl panel is unfortunatly !!)

    Could you recommend please a HKC control box (wired/wireless), hkc compatable, gates, etc & also the specific GSM module so I can request in quotes.


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    #6
    kub
    Registered Users Posts: 6,528 ✭✭✭kub


    bifl wrote: »
    Thanks for the feedback folks, much appreciated.

    Sorry when I think about it I'm wired for PIRs but not to the windows so I will need a hybrid capable of wired and wireless. I movable GSM soloution sounds what I need. As you say you can kep it internal and i can move it to parts of the house thath have good signal (it's just not where my contorl panel is unfortunatly !!)

    Could you recommend please a HKC control box (wired/wireless), hkc compatable, gates, etc & also the specific GSM module so I can request in quotes.


    No problem, i would go with the 10/270 model as it has all of fhe features you need.

    The GSM unit is called a HKC GSM/Wifi.......yes that simply
    Highlight also that there is no GSM coverage at the panel position and that you want it fitted remotelly.

    Any and all gate controllers that I know of are compatable, gates controllers still have analogie inputs.
    Actially a newly introduced HKC Wireless Access Keypad and wireless double relay module would be ideal for your gate integration.


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    #7
    bifl
    Registered Users Posts: 222 ✭✭bifl


    kub wrote: »
    No problem, i would go with the 10/270 model as it has all of fhe features you need.

    The GSM unit is called a HKC GSM/Wifi.......yes that simply
    Highlight also that there is no GSM coverage at the panel position and that you want it fitted remotelly.

    Any and all gate controllers that I know of are compatable, gates controllers still have analogie inputs.
    Actially a newly introduced HKC Wireless Access Keypad and wireless double relay module would be ideal for your gate integration.

    Perfect, thanks for the details Kub. I didn't know the GSM module could be put somewhere else I presumed it plugged directlyinto the control module/

    I was doing a bit of looking at the HKC stuff. Would it be wise to go with a LAN module as well (if they can be fitted alongside the GSM/Wifi module) just to have hardwired broadband over the blockable wifi.

    What's the polling like on the HKC. Up till now I was being swung by the Vanderbilt stuff.


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    #8
    kub
    Registered Users Posts: 6,528 ✭✭✭kub


    bifl wrote: »
    Perfect, thanks for the details Kub. I didn't know the GSM module could be put somewhere else I presumed it plugged directlyinto the control module/

    I was doing a bit of looking at the HKC stuff. Would it be wise to go with a LAN module as well (if they can be fitted alongside the GSM/Wifi module) just to have hardwired broadband over the blockable wifi.

    What's the polling like on the HKC. Up till now I was being swung by the Vanderbilt stuff.


    On polling time, Vanderbilt have that to a tee, but their equipment is best suited to commercial premises and financial institutions, where the chances of being hit are a lot more higher than a domestic home. ( Depending of course on what a Risk Assessment has to say, this would determine the degree of security reflecting upon your attraction to a determined criminal )


    HKC start with a basic 8 hour polling time, after that there is the option for a 90 minute one and thereafter a 10 minute one.
    Yes Vanderbilt trumps that.


    HKC have a LAN card, their GSM/ Wifi card does both GSM and Wifi, if the Wifi is blocked then the World GPRS SIM card within will notify you of a Wifi issue.


    If you wish to discuss your Security system further, i would suggest we go to PM as i would rather not go much further than this in public as we do not know who could be reading this and i would not like to be giving them ideas.


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    #9
    neillerz
    Registered Users Posts: 13 ✭neillerz


    Can personally recommend Texecom premier elite panels.
    Excellent range of products. Communicational via GSM and broadband modules. They have a good app which is free, saving you a yearly charge. Premier elite panels have smart home features such as cctv and lightning integration. Plus you can have wired/wireless components on all elite panels(some require an extra wireless expander).


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    #10
    GSRNBP
    Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭GSRNBP


    I'm in a similar boat - new build pre-wired. i'm coming from PhoneWatch, which I like due to the app (remote arming / disarming) and the very fast response time. I'm fine with taking care of Home Automation and CCTV myself. What's the best option out there at the moment for someone like me? HKC? Would obviously like to balance cost-effective with good service.


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    #11
    bifl
    Registered Users Posts: 222 ✭✭bifl


    I've had another look at the Ajax system and have to say it appeals to me. Maybe it the geek in me but it seems to be modern and scalable. It's something I could install and manage myself and not get into yearly mangement service fees and the like.

    I do have a house that it pre-wired, aside from having to replace the batteries in the sensors in the Ajax every couple of years, why do people seem to favour the pre-wired system, if it is like me, an available option.


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    #12
    Superfoods
    Closed Accounts Posts: 322 ✭✭Superfoods


    If you dont have an alarm in place then I wouldnt go HKC, the 8 euro per month for monitoring is extremely expensive when you can get similar or even better with systems for free bar the SIM costs.


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    #13
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,467 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    kub wrote: »
    I have yet to come across one of these home automation systems that offer the same level of security as a traditionally designed domestic Intruder Alarm system.

    I think people often mix up Home Automation (HA) with Internet Of Things (IoT) on this forum and conflate the two. They are of course related, but not the same thing.

    IoT is taking an existing product and adding some internet ability to it, some comms channels. Relating to Alarm systems, that is taking the old, bells only, no comms alarms and adding ability to send alarm triggered notifications to the user and ability to remotely monitor and control the alarm.

    HA is then another level above that, the ability to link to Smart lights and other HA products.

    I agree that alarm systems don't need to be at the center of your homes HA and perhaps it is better that it isn't. Though it is nice if the alarm at least adds some API's to make info from the alarm available to other devices. Alarm state, PIR triggered, etc.

    But getting back to just IoT, I do have to say the HKC systems look very old and outdated even in that regard.

    Look at the HKC Panels, in this day and age it is shocking that they don't come with any comms at all built in by default. Instead it is a relatively expensive add on modules. And even then you get a clunky looking old app, which costs €70 per year and polling that ranges from 10 minutes to 8 hours!!

    By comparison, look at the newer Ajax system. It looks like what a modern alarm system in 2020 should look like. And I'm not talking about HA. Modern design, that comes with 4 comms paths built in out of the box, ethernet, wifi and 2 x 2g/3g/4g sims! Modern, nice looking apps, polling that ranges from 10 seconds to 300 seconds and zero ongoing cost for all this.

    This is what a system on 2020 should look like. I'm not saying this just to piss on HKC. I'm saying this with the hope that they realise that they are being left behind and that they badly need to come up with a new modern system IMO.

    Imagine a new panel from HKC that was similar to Ajax, with mult-comms paths built into it be default, modern app, fast polling and a more competitive monitoring cost, in a package compatible with all of HKC's existing wired and wireless sensors. I think that would be very popular here in Ireland with all the people looking to upgrade their existing old system.

    If they don't, I think they will increasingly get their lunch eaten by the likes of Ajax at the high end and the Rings/Nest/Yales at the lower end of the market.

    I know what I'm saying is probably very unpopular with many on this forum, but no point in ignoring reality of how the market is changing.


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    #14
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,640 ✭✭✭✭altor


    bk wrote: »
    I think people often mix up Home Automation (HA) with Internet Of Things (IoT) on this forum and conflate the two. They are of course related, but not the same thing.

    IoT is taking an existing product and adding some internet ability to it, some comms channels. Relating to Alarm systems, that is taking the old, bells only, no comms alarms and adding ability to send alarm triggered notifications to the user and ability to remotely monitor and control the alarm.

    HA is then another level above that, the ability to link to Smart lights and other HA products.

    I agree that alarm systems don't need to be at the center of your homes HA and perhaps it is better that it isn't. Though it is nice if the alarm at least adds some API's to make info from the alarm available to other devices. Alarm state, PIR triggered, etc.

    But getting back to just IoT, I do have to say the HKC systems look very old and outdated even in that regard.

    Look at the HKC Panels, in this day and age it is shocking that they don't come with any comms at all built in by default. Instead it is a relatively expensive add on modules. And even then you get a clunky looking old app, which costs €70 per year and polling that ranges from 10 minutes to 8 hours!!

    By comparison, look at the newer Ajax system. It looks like what a modern alarm system in 2020 should look like. And I'm not talking about HA. Modern design, that comes with 4 comms paths built in out of the box, ethernet, wifi and 2 x 2g/3g/4g sims! Modern, nice looking apps, polling that ranges from 10 seconds to 300 seconds and zero ongoing cost for all this.

    This is what a system on 2020 should look like. I'm not saying this just to piss on HKC. I'm saying this with the hope that they realise that they are being left behind and that they badly need to come up with a new modern system IMO.

    Imagine a new panel from HKC that was similar to Ajax, with mult-comms paths built into it be default, modern app, fast polling and a more competitive monitoring cost, in a package compatible with all of HKC's existing wired and wireless sensors. I think that would be very popular here in Ireland with all the people looking to upgrade their existing old system.

    If they don't, I think they will increasingly get their lunch eaten by the likes of Ajax at the high end and the Rings/Nest/Yales at the lower end of the market.

    I know what I'm saying is probably very unpopular with many on this forum, but no point in ignoring reality of how the market is changing.

    Its not that its unpopular, HKC have proven there worth with alarm systems for the last 20 odd years. Yes they are moving at a slow pace but thats the way they have always done things. They develop, test and release.

    While I do agree with some of what you are saying in terms of adding HA and IoT devices to alarm systems the AJAX system is not the be all end all, lets just take the keypad, it is dumb. we have both agreed on that.
    HKCs touchpad keypad is to be released before the end of this year.

    HKC have their own version of HA using there wirefree output cards.
    Not straight forward I agree but can be done.
    For Iot I receive text messages from my HKC alarm which in turn I use to turn on lights, again not amazing but works.
    Yes if they had some integration with alexia or google hub that would be great but they haven't implemented it for a security reasons.
    bk wrote: »

    Look at the HKC Panels, in this day and age it is shocking that they don't come with any comms at all built in by default. Instead it is a relatively expensive add on modules. And even then you get a clunky looking old app, which costs €70 per year and polling that ranges from 10 minutes to 8 hours!!

    By comparison, look at the newer Ajax system. It looks like what a modern alarm system in 2020 should look like. And I'm not talking about HA. Modern design, that comes with 4 comms paths built in out of the box, ethernet, wifi and 2 x 2g/3g/4g sims! Modern, nice looking apps, polling that ranges from 10 seconds to 300 seconds and zero ongoing cost for all this.


    Quantum panels has a built in dialer, couldnt tell you the last time I connected to one but its there :D

    If you look at the pricing of the hubs with different modules built in you will see they are well covered in pricing compared to HKC with an addon.

    Its a hub thats connected into your router, whats so modern about it?

    You say there is zero on going cost?
    I really find this hard to believe if utilizing all comms paths that are built into this panel, especially the 2g/3g4g sims but Im sure you can confirm there is zero cost associated with this?

    www.altor.ie



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