should convicts of serious crimes lose their vote?

pgj2015 · 05-05-2020 11:13am #1

Im not sure if these people would vote much anyway but do you think people who have committed serious crimes like rape, murder, armed robbery etc loose their right to vote in elections, referendums?

I vote that they should lose their vote. who wants people like that deciding who runs the country or what changes are made to our constitution.

JohnnyFlash · 05-05-2020 11:14am

pgj2015 wrote: »

Im not sure if these people would vote much anyway but do you think people who have committed serious crimes like rape, murder, armed robbery etc loose their right to vote in elections, referendums?

I vote that they should loose their vote. who wants people like that deciding who runs the country or what changes are made to our constitution.

No.

Journal.ie and Twitter commentators though? Hmmm....

touts · 05-05-2020 11:19am

They should lose their vote for the period of their conviction. E.g. if a 10 year sentence and they only serve two or three years before getting out on early release as under the current system they still cannot vote until the full sentence is up.

But no doubt the Irish Council for Criminal Liberties and other criminal advocacy groups will throw a tantrum on Morning Ireland and Mountjoy will probably be made a standalone constituency with their own TDs and Senators.

Ten of Swords · 05-05-2020 11:28am

No.

What you are suggesting is to strip them of their rights as citizens and effectively make them property of the state for the duration of their conviction

pgj2015 · 05-05-2020 11:35am

Ten of Swords wrote: »

No.

What you are suggesting is to strip them of their rights as citizens and effectively make them property of the state for the duration of their conviction

I actually feel they should never have the right to vote again, who wants some member of the IRA, murderer, rapist deciding who runs our country? I think that should be left to people who behave themselves and who aren't scum bags basically.

05-05-2020 11:36am

pgj2015 wrote: »

I actually feel they should never have the right to vote again, who wants some member of the IRA, murderer, rapist deciding who runs our country? I think that should be left to people who behave themselves and who aren't scum bags basically.

Mate the IRA won our freedom in the 1st place

ongarite · 05-05-2020 11:37am

No.

Its the start of a slippery slope to the US system then where you can "help" your re-election chances by excluding everyone who has had a criminal conviction no matter how minor.

05-05-2020 11:44am

Deleted User wrote: »

Mate the IRA won our freedom in the 1st place

Not really. Which IRA? Had the IRA of the time continued their aims, they'd have seen us fight for the north, lose, and only gain independence much later in the period. In any case, considering the socialist aspect of the IRA and their links with Stalinist ideology, we would have been seeing a more communist progression from independence. Hardly a bastion for peoples freedoms.

Our freedoms come from many sources (thankfully), especially as Church & State was gradually eroded, and Irish people could gain real freedom from religious nonsense.

Not seeking to derail the thread, but I don't get this whitewashing of the IRA and elevating them beyond the role they served in our history.

05-05-2020 11:48am

touts wrote: »

They should lose their vote for the period of their conviction. E.g. if a 10 year sentence and they only serve two or three years before getting out on early release as under the current system they still cannot vote until the full sentence is up.

But no doubt the Irish Council for Criminal Liberties and other criminal advocacy groups will throw a tantrum on Morning Ireland and Mountjoy will probably be made a standalone constituency with their own TDs and Senators.

Agreed. There should be real punishments to reinforce the belief that what they did has consequence. Considering the farce that is the revolving door policy of prisons and sentencing, there should be other punishments involved, which show that they've chosen to live outside of acceptable norms. And I don't think losing their right to vote for the period of their incarceration would be so terrible for most of them. It's not as if Ireland imprisons Political activists for opposing the government.

Ten of Swords wrote:

No.

What you are suggesting is to strip them of their rights as citizens and effectively make them property of the state for the duration of their conviction

How so? They would still have their other rights as citizens.

05-05-2020 11:50am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Not really. Which IRA? Had the IRA of the time continued their aims, they'd have seen us fight for the north, lose, and only gain independence much later in the period. In any case, considering the socialist aspect of the IRA and their links with Stalinist ideology, we would have been seeing a more communist progression from independence. Hardly a bastion for peoples freedoms.

Our freedoms come from many sources (thankfully), especially as Church & State was gradually eroded, and Irish people could gain real freedom from religious nonsense.

Not seeking to derail the thread, but I don't get this whitewashing of the IRA and elevating them beyond the role they served in our history.

Freedom from.english rule....war of independance?

Kinda ironic lectuting to others,when you seem unaware of this?

05-05-2020 11:54am

Deleted User wrote: »

Freedom from.english rule....war of independance?

Kinda ironic lectuting to others,when you seem unaware of this?

Unaware of what? Your objection isn't exactly clear. In fact, I'm not even sure what you are objecting to in my post.

And disagreeing with you, is lecturing? :rolleyes:

05-05-2020 11:57am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Unaware of what? Your objection isn't exactly clear. In fact, I'm not even sure what you are objecting to in my post.

And disagreeing with you, is lecturing? :rolleyes:

Mate either you think the ira won war of independance or your dont

I dont really see grounds for disagreement here tbh?

Quite what you feel rolleyes add to ignoring historical realities is beyond me

banie01 · 05-05-2020 12:02pm

Deleted User wrote: »

How so? They would still have their other rights as citizens.

I'd posit that amongst the constitutionally protected rights of a citizen is their right to actively participate in the political discourse and choice of government via the exercising of their vote.

Rights as a citizen are not levels or XP, its pretty much an all or nothing proposition.

Citizens all have equal rights, making some more equal than others?

Well, I think that's a little too close to Orwell.

05-05-2020 12:02pm

In theory I wouldn't be against them losing their right to vote for the duration of the sentence but in reality it's a slippery slope so it's a no from me.

pgj2015 · 05-05-2020 12:31pm

Deleted User wrote: »

In theory I wouldn't be against them losing their right to vote for the duration of the sentence but in reality it's a slippery slope so it's a no from me.

You sure? what if there was a sizeable number of convicts who decided to vote for some nut job racist right wing party, then they get into power. or if there was a vote in a referendum that no one could serve more than 20 years in jail no matter the crime (like in norway) where that guy killed 60 kids but can not serve more than 20 years in jail. would you be ok with these people deciding issues like that?

pgj2015 · 05-05-2020 12:34pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Mate either you think the ira won war of independance or your dont

I dont really see grounds for disagreement here tbh?

Quite what you feel rolleyes add to ignoring historical realities is beyond me

Just to clear this up, I was talking about IRA members from the 70's to the dissident groups we have now, not the guys back in 100 years ago.

05-05-2020 1:12pm

pgj2015 wrote: »

You sure? what if there was a sizeable number of convicts who decided to vote for some nut job racist right wing party, then they get into power. or if there was a vote in a referendum that no one could serve more than 20 years in jail no matter the crime (like in norway) where that guy killed 60 kids but can not serve more than 20 years in jail. would you be ok with these people deciding issues like that?

You can throw whatever scenario you want in front of me, it's still a no.

The day the prison population can decide such a vote is the day democracy is long dead.

We have plenty of law abiding citizens that would love a nut job racist right wing party in power but Ireland has resoundingly rejected such people, aside from the undemocratic Seanad.

Zebra3 · 05-05-2020 1:15pm

How about we stop convicted criminals from holding seats in the Oireachtas?

biko · 05-05-2020 1:18pm

That's not very inclusive of you OP.

05-05-2020 1:19pm

Yup absolutely. I'd remove the vote from anyone who is a repeat offender as well even if it's only minor things. I'd also remove it from anyone who's long term unemployed/on social welfare.

Maybe bring in a system of you have to contribute x before you can vote or receive state support be that through service to the state (guard, army, nurse, doc etc) or through x amount of years of tax/prsi payments. Would kill all those parties that rely on people who sit on their hole with their handout who've never worked a day in their life.

In the event of long term illness previous contributions will be taken into account.

Dravokivich · 05-05-2020 1:23pm

pgj2015 wrote: »

Im not sure if these people would vote much anyway but do you think people who have committed serious crimes like rape, murder, armed robbery etc loose their right to vote in elections, referendums?

I vote that they should lose their vote. who wants people like that deciding who runs the country or what changes are made to our constitution.

Before thinking they should lose their vote. How many actually use it? How much of a difference would occur if that vote was then to be deducted?

Chances are not a lot and slim.

So why go through all this extra work for minimal gains?

Ten of Swords · 05-05-2020 1:26pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe bring in a system of you have to contribute x before you can vote or receive state support be that through service to the state (guard, army, nurse, doc etc) or through x amount of years of tax/prsi payments

Ken. · 05-05-2020 1:27pm

Yes. If you can't play by the rules you don't get to be a part of making the rules.

Dravokivich · 05-05-2020 1:29pm

Ten of Swords wrote: »

No.

What you are suggesting is to strip them of their rights as citizens and effectively make them property of the state for the duration of their conviction

We're already property of the state.

05-05-2020 1:35pm

Ten of Swords wrote: »

That's actually what I was thinking as I typed

CrankyHaus · 05-05-2020 1:40pm

The point of prison is that the convict repays their debt to society.
Removing their vote on release will just enhance feelings of alienation from the mainstream and increase the risk of recidivism.
What harm has ever been caused by ex-convicts voting? Have they ever formed a pro-convict party to legalise serious crimes? Would many of them even be bothered voting?

The proposal is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist, which would itself create worse problems.

Ken. · 05-05-2020 1:52pm

I thought the op meant while in jail. That I agree with. Afterwards they should be allowed.

Cienciano · 05-05-2020 2:01pm

I broke the speed limit yesterday so I'm not actually allowed to vote on this thread

05-05-2020 3:02pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Mate either you think the ira won war of independance or your dont

I dont really see grounds for disagreement here tbh?

Quite what you feel rolleyes add to ignoring historical realities is beyond me

Forget it. You're obviously unwilling to think about what I wrote.

corner of hells · 05-05-2020 3:03pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yup absolutely. I'd remove the vote from anyone who is a repeat offender as well even if it's only minor things. I'd also remove it from anyone who's long term unemployed/on social welfare.

Maybe bring in a system of you have to contribute x before you can vote or receive state support be that through service to the state (guard, army, nurse, doc etc) or through x amount of years of tax/prsi payments. Would kill all those parties that rely on people who sit on their hole with their handout who've never worked a day in their life.

In the event of long term illness previous contributions will be taken into account.

What parties rely on people who sit on their hole all day ?

corner of hells · 05-05-2020 3:05pm

Cienciano wrote: »

I broke the speed limit yesterday so I'm not actually allowed to vote on this thread

If you drive in reverse at the same speed for an hour, all will be forgiven .

should convicts of serious crimes lose their vote?

should convicts of serious crimes loose their vote? 104 votes

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