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Nantes Cathedral Fire; arson suspected

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    #2
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,776 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Accumulator wrote: »
    Another Cathedral went abaze in France today.

    This one has more certainty of puropsefuly arson, with 3 specific ignition points.
    just lucky 100 firefighters got to it in time to save it, and thus discovered evidence of arson.

    DyVidqS.png

    Seems to be a trend to burn down Christian places of worship in multi-cultural France.
    Along with hundreds of cases of vandalism and intentional damage.
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/vandalism-at-hundreds-of-french-churches-n509gwb0d
    A recent fire at the entrance of Saint-Sulpice church in Paris was also believed to have been deliberate.

    Some tabloids classed the trend as militant secularism.
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8804063/france-church-arson-attacks-vandalism-christian-heritage/

    Other's claim they don't know why such a trend exists.
    https://www.newsweek.com/spate-attacks-catholic-churches-france-sees-altars-desecrated-christ-statue-1370800

    Any conspiracy to any of this, or is this yet another info-dump with a tacked on "it could be a conspiracy, or not, who knows"


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    #3
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Any conspiracy to any of this
    Well it certianly does look like a trend, with yet another French cathedral set abalze.
    • 875 of France’s churches were vandalised last year.
    • A further 129 churches reported thefts from the premises
    • 59 cemeteries were also vandalised.
    • Every day, at least two churches are profaned.
    Perhaps it was the vegetarians or celiacs, after all there is plenty of bread used, and possibly also leather upholstery.

    Either way, a trend apears to exist, along with some motive, given the figures.


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    #4
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,641 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Nobody suspects the vegetarians, but have you considered it could also be the Spanish Inquisition? ;)

    Clearly there is a reasonable arson angle here.


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    #5
    Wayne Gorsky
    Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭Wayne Gorsky


    Another cathedral/church fire in France, seems to be a trend in recent years…and, if it was indeed arson, I’d wager it wasn’t devout Christians who did it…


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    #6
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,226 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Hayley Tart Southpaw wrote: »

    Either way, a trend apears to exist, along with some motive, given the figures.

    What is the motive?

    Why did you say: "multi-cultural France."?

    Wild stab in the dark: you're not going to answer these questions directly and clearly and will continue to be vague and non committal because you know your real answer is a bit silly and off putting to most people.


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    #7
    YellowBucket
    Closed Accounts Posts: 491 ✭✭YellowBucket


    Given that modern France was founded quite literally on militant secularism, whoever it is is hardly raging against the machine. It's about the most secular that you'll get anywhere on planet Earth. There wouldn't be much to be militant against...

    You'll get every bubble online though and France is rather prone to vandalism of all sorts from time to time. I wouldn't read that much into it without knowing all the facts though.

    I know it's somewhere that I've encountered some of the most ridiculous acts of random destruction. I remember being in Nantes during the riots there and it was unbelievable stuff. Anything that could be lit was burned and this was something that started over planning permission for a regional airport that's been rolling on for decades.

    It's normally a quiet city with a nice lifestyle and all of a sudden it was just chaos with "les casseurs" appearing all over the place just living up to their name and breaking anything they could break. Cars, shops, public transport equipment, anything .. just trashed.


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    #8
    Cheerful Spring2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,705 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring2


    Hayley Tart Southpaw wrote: »
    Another* Cathedral went abaze in France today.

    This one has more certainty of puropsefuly arson, with 3 specific ignition points.
    just lucky 100 firefighters got to it in time to save it, and thus discovered evidence of arson.

    DyVidqS.png

    Seems to be a trend to burn down Christian places of worship in multi-cultural France.
    Along with hundreds of cases of vandalism and intentional damage.
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/vandalism-at-hundreds-of-french-churches-n509gwb0d
    A recent fire at the entrance of Saint-Sulpice church in Paris was also believed to have been deliberate.

    Some tabloids classed the trend as militant secularism.
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8804063/france-church-arson-attacks-vandalism-christian-heritage/

    Other's claim they don't know why such a trend exists.
    https://www.newsweek.com/spate-attacks-catholic-churches-france-sees-altars-desecrated-christ-statue-1370800

    *re: Notre Dame 2019 Fire /mod

    Reported in the last few hours French police arrested a suspect, an African Rwandan man. We see if he was the person behind lighting this recent fire or it's a mistake arrest?


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    #9
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »
    Reported in the last few hours French police arrested a suspect, an African Rwandan man. We see if he was the person behind lighting this recent fire or it's a mistake arrest?


    Indeed, the 39-year-old Rwandan refugee who worked as a volunteer for the cathedral and had been in charge of locking up the building on Friday night. He is arrested and being questioned for inconsistencies in his schedule. There was also no sign of forced entry to the premesis.


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    #10
    Cheerful Spring2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,705 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring2


    Hayley Tart Southpaw wrote: »
    Indeed, the 39-year-old Rwandan refugee who worked as a volunteer for the cathedral and had been in charge of locking up the building on Friday night. He is arrested and being questioned for inconsistencies in his schedule. There was also no sign of forced entry to the premesis.

    If he did so , what's the motive behind it? They church gave him responsibility here to lock up so they trusted him?


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    #11
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »
    If he did so , what's the motive behind it? They church gave him responsibility here to lock up so they trusted him?
    Your guess is as good as mine. Important to say he has not been charged of yet, but does remain the primary suspect, or at the centre of the as yet unsolved crime.
    There could even be the aspect of accomplices or indeed factors of duress if he was an important keyholder to the premesis, only time will tell.

    Nearly a thousand attacks on churches of France per year (just in recent years) sure is a significant trend or phenomena.


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    #12
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,150 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Hayley Tart Southpaw wrote: »
    Your guess is as good as mine. Important to say he has not been charged of yet, but does remain the primary suspect, or at the centre of the as yet unsolved crime.
    There could even be the aspect of accomplices or indeed factors of duress if he was an important keyholder to the premesis, only time will tell.

    Nearly a thousand attacks on churches of France per year (just in recent years) sure is a significant trend or phenomena.

    is that higher or lower than it was in the past? what exactly is the trend?


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    #13
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    is that higher or lower than it was in the past? what exactly is the trend?
    Well one clear trend in recent years that didn't exist pre-2015 across Europe include:

    i) the 2016 St-Étienne, France (Normandy) church attack:
    Armed men slit the throat of a priest and took several other people hostage after storming a church in France on Wednesday July 26. Authorities have descried the atrocity during morning mass as an Islamic attack. Police shot dead the attackers.
    ii) 2017 church attack in neighouring Spain:
    reports in Spanish media say the jihadist cell had intended to target the iconic, Gaudi-designed church with explosives (120 cannisters loaded on a truck). This was discovered just after the Barca attack. Had it not been discovered would have levelled the area, and the church.
    iii) More recently the planned church/cathedral attack in neighouring London:
    (This week), a West London mother Safiyya Shaikh, 36 who converted to Islam, has been jailed for life for plotting to blow up St Paul's Cathedral during Easter celebrations. Luckily she was caught just in time.
    While most of the attacks in France are not nearly of this severity, it would be reasonable that assume that some, perhaps many could be inspired by such grander-scale attacks (as above), by folks who share common or similar views towards Christian Churches.

    If anything the Jewish folks could well be suffering even worse in France, with more than the 1,000 or so yearly church (and other) attacks, with mixed levels of severity.

    There could be other groups e.g. ye olde satanists, but they traditionally tend to leave some markings, signs and messages. Same for the femminists, they would use the opportunity to deliver their manifesto.


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    #14
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,150 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Hayley Tart Southpaw wrote: »
    Well one clear trend in recent years that didn't exist pre-2015 across Europe include:

    i) the 2016 St-Étienne, France (Normandy) church attack:
    Armed men slit the throat of a priest and took several other people hostage after storming a church in France on Wednesday July 26. Authorities have descried the atrocity during morning mass as an Islamic attack. Police shot dead the attackers.
    ii) 2017 church attack in neighouring Spain:
    reports in Spanish media say the jihadist cell had intended to target the iconic, Gaudi-designed church with explosives (120 cannisters loaded on a truck). This was discovered just after the Barca attack. Had it not been discovered would have levelled the area, and the church.
    iii) More recently the planned church/cathedral attack in neighouring London:
    (This week), a West London mother Safiyya Shaikh, 36 who converted to Islam, has been jailed for life for plotting to blow up St Paul's Cathedral during Easter celebrations. Luckily she was caught just in time.
    While most of the attacks in France are not nearly of this severity, it would be reasonable that assume that some, perhaps many could be inspired by such grander-scale attacks (as above), by folks who share common or similar views towards Christian Churches.

    If anything the Jewish folks could well be suffering even worse in France, with more than the 1,000 or so yearly church (and other) attacks, with mixed levels of severity.

    There could be other groups e.g. ye olde satanists, but they traditionally tend to leave some markings, signs and messages. Same for the femminists, they would use the opportunity to deliver their manifesto.

    that isn't what i asked.


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    #15
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    is that higher or lower than it was in the past? what exactly is the trend?
    The attacks would appear to be higher, and more severe (since 2015), that at any time previous, in living memory.

    For an example of the 'trend', see above^.
    Or if you wish, consult a historical statistician with access to French data for both total and factors of the level/severity of attacks.

    There are plenty of other examples of (severe level) recent attacks e.g. Church of St. Sulpice in Paris was set on fire in 2019.


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    #16
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,150 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Hayley Tart Southpaw wrote: »
    The attacks would appear to be higher, and more severe (since 2015), that at any time previous, in living memory.

    For an example of the 'trend', see above^.
    Or if you wish, consult a historical statistician with access to French data for both total and factors of the level/severity of attacks.

    There are plenty of other examples of (severe level) recent attacks e.g. Church of St. Sulpice in Paris was set on fire in 2019.

    how can you say there is a trend when you dont have that data?


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    #17
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    how can you say there is a trend when you dont have that data?
    Very simply, ask yourself how many churches were set on fire in France (or mainland Europe), or had advanced and feasable plans for their roofs to be actually blown off, or had their Priest's necks cut open during e.g. the 1980's.

    If you're still in denial (which you appear to be) about post-2015 trends circumstances.

    Maybe take a look at the Jews (also under attack) who are more vocal in such matters. Their communities and leaders have often stated that they feel under great threat in recent years in France, and many plan to flee elsewhere.

    Even if one was to locate accurate historical data, when you factor or weigh in the severity level (see sample incidents on previous page), nothing compares, in this trend, as regard to 2015-2020.


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    #18
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,150 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Hayley Tart Southpaw wrote: »
    Very simply, ask yourself how many churches were set on fire in France (or mainland Europe), or had advanced and feasable plans for their roofs to be actually blown off, or had their Priest's necks cut open during e.g. the 1980's.

    why dont you tell me?


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    #19
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,226 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Hayley Tart Southpaw wrote: »
    nothing compares, in this trend, as regard to 2015-2020.
    What is the cause of this trend and why are you posting it in Conspiracy theories?

    Why did you bring up France being "multicultural" and what relevance does this have to you conspiracy?

    Could you perhaps directly state your opinion is clear terms rather than dancing around it?


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    #20
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    why dont you tell me?
    Well I did ask you the quesiton, but hey, you have refused to answer it.

    To the best of my knowledge zero or close to zero churches had attempts to have their 'roofs blown off' (unlike attempts in Barca and London), and zero priests had their necks chopped (France) pre-2015, on the basis or motivation of a specific ideology.

    Likely there was always lower level incidents of vandalism in previous years, suspect it hasn't been as bad as now (x2 attempts per day) in France, including more serious arson attacks. Guess the same theory could also apply to the Jewish community as per the Christian (places of worship) also.

    You disagree with this theory, or conclude that it has no basis whatsoever?


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    #21
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,150 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Hayley Tart Southpaw wrote: »
    Well I did ask you the quesiton, but hey, you have refused to answer it.

    you made the assertion that there was a trend. it is not up to me to disprove what you say. the alternative is we all post unsubstantiated ****e and then shout "prove me wrong" at anybody who disagrees with it. not an adult way to discuss anything.
    Hayley Tart Southpaw wrote: »
    To the best of my knowledge zero or close to zero churches had attempts to have their 'roofs blown off' (unlike attempts in Barca and London), and zero priests had their necks chopped (France) pre-2015, on the basis or motivation of a specific ideology.

    Likely there was always lower level incidents of vandalism in previous years, suspect it hasn't been as bad as now (x2 attempts per day) in France, including more serious arson attacks. Guess the same theory could also apply to the Jewish community as per the Christian (places of worship) also.

    You disagree with this theory, or conclude that it has no basis whatsoever?

    i dont see the basis for it. two incidents do not make trend.


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    #22
    Fionn1952
    Registered Users Posts: 3,370 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    Hayley Tart Southpaw wrote: »
    Well I did ask you the quesiton, but hey, you have refused to answer it.

    To the best of my knowledge zero or close to zero churches had attempts to have their 'roofs blown off' (unlike attempts in Barca and London), and zero priests had their necks chopped (France) pre-2015, on the basis or motivation of a specific ideology.

    Likely there was always lower level incidents of vandalism in previous years, suspect it hasn't been as bad as now (x2 attempts per day) in France, including more serious arson attacks. Guess the same theory could also apply to the Jewish community as per the Christian (places of worship) also.

    You disagree with this theory, or conclude that it has no basis whatsoever?

    There were over 50 churches burned down in Norway in the early 90s due to a specific ideology actually, so it's certainly not zero or close to it pre-2015.


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    #23
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Fionn1952 wrote: »
    There were over 50 churches burned down in Norway in the early 90s due to a specific ideology actually, so it's certainly not zero or close to it pre-2015.
    50? ..incidences of arson across half a decade in a Nordic country, with a slight novelty and unhealthy fasination or unhealthy dark/death metal music genre with a dab of Pagan carry-on to boot, is still very little. They really don't get much sunshine up there, are often depressed, their suicide rates are also very shocking indeed.

    In France (2+ attacks per day):
    The number of officially recorded anti-Christian incidents has risen by 285% between 2008 and 2019, (i.e. a clear trend), according to Ellen Fantini (Director) of the Observatory on Intolerance and Discrimination Against Christians in Europe (OIDACE) in Vienna. Over 1,000 incidents in each of the last two years, just in France (many other EU countries don't record such figures, and just sweep up such vandalism).
    https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/will-they-stop-at-burning-an-empty-church-anti-christian-attacks-rise-in-europe-48302


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    #24
    Fionn1952
    Registered Users Posts: 3,370 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    Hayley Tart Southpaw wrote: »
    50? ..incidences of arson across half a decade in a Nordic country, with a slight novelty and unhealthy fasination or unhealthy dark/death metal music genre with a dab of Pagan carry-on to boot, is still very little. They really don't get much sunshine up there, are often depressed, their suicide rates are also very shocking indeed.

    In France (2+ attacks per day):
    The number of officially recorded anti-Christian incidents has risen by 285% between 2008 and 2019, (i.e. a clear trend), according to Ellen Fantini (Director) of the Observatory on Intolerance and Discrimination Against Christians in Europe (OIDACE) in Vienna. Over 1,000 incidents in each of the last two years, just in France (many other EU countries don't record such figures, and just sweep up such vandalism).
    https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/will-they-stop-at-burning-an-empty-church-anti-christian-attacks-rise-in-europe-48302

    So you'll acknowledge you were totally incorrect when you said zero or close to zero, yes?


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    #25
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Fionn1952 wrote: »
    So you'll acknowledge you were totally incorrect when you said zero or close to zero, yes?
    Actually what was said appears to remain, and stand, as 100% correct:
    To the best of my knowledge zero or close to zero churches had attempts to have their 'roofs blown off' (unlike attempts in Barca and London), and zero priests had their necks chopped (France) pre-2015, on the basis or motivation of a specific ideology.

    If you can show where/when a church had it's roof 'blown off' (or a serious, and viable attempt to do so). Or where/when a priest had his neck chopped, do feel free to supply details.

    Not really the same classification as starting a small corner fire, when you consider the advanced plans that were made for Barca & London. The Barcelona incident actually had a loaded large truck of cannisters ready to roll, before interception.

    Also, the trend of +285%, shows proof of a trended (increase) of attacks, yes?
    Curious why some here are so eager to twist such plain facts to suit some agenda.


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    #26
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,405 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Hayley Tart Southpaw wrote: »
    Actually what was said appears to remain, and stand, as 100% correct:



    If you can show where/when a church had it's roof 'blown off' (or a serious, and viable attempt to do so). Or where/when a priest had his neck chopped, do feel free to supply details.

    Not really the same classification as starting a small corner fire, when you consider the advanced plans that were made for Barca & London. The Barcelona incident actually had a loaded large truck of cannisters ready to roll, before interception.

    Also, the trend of +285%, shows proof of a trended (increase) of attacks, yes?
    Curious why some here are so eager to twist such plain facts to suit some agenda.

    You're often guilty of doing this yourself.


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    #27
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    You're often guilty of doing this yourself.
    I'd reject such an assumption, have only presented facts and figures.

    Would indeed also question why you thanked a post above that is clearly an incorrect statement and spinned out of context, perhaps as it suits your own pre-biased viewpoint?


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    #28
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,405 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Hayley Tart Southpaw wrote: »
    I'd reject such an assumption, have only presented facts and figures.

    Of course you will reject it, you're hardly going to admit being bigoted.
    Would indeed also question why you thanked a post above that is clearly an incorrect statement, perhaps as it suits your own biased viewpoint?

    Why worry about thanks?


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    #29
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Of course you will reject it, you're hardly going to admit being bigoted.

    I also reject your petty false, nasty name calling, and have reported this very uncivil agenda thanking driven behaviour.

    Clearly you're upset when presented with cold facts and figures.
    Can't help you there, your problem not mine.


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    #30
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,405 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Hayley Tart Southpaw wrote: »
    I also reject your petty false, nasty name calling, and have reported this very uncivil agenda thanking driven behaviour.

    Clearly you're upset when presented with cold facts and figures.
    Can't help you there, your problem not mine.

    Reported what?

    You have taken my comment In the wrong context my friend and should maybe read it again.

    Also re the bolded, could you explain what that is supposed to mean please?


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    #31
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    bigoted.
    False accusations such as this are very nasty, and indeed very uncivil.


This discussion has been closed.
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