Wind farms - ugly truths

ted1 · 22-05-2014 10:26pm

AngryHippie wrote: »

That is a very Ireland specific phenomenon. The drop in Economic activity has resulted in people being a lot more careful about their energy consumption, and trimming it down to the bare essentials to avoid getting billed for excess. This will happen everywhere as the cost of generation continues to increase. The gross consumption will continue to rise with the population.

Population up => Energy consumption up. Basic stuff.

Industry and closure if factories etc are to blame. The domestic market makes up very little of the overall system demand

ted1 · 22-05-2014 10:28pm

deegs wrote: »

At the risk of sounding like a broken record...
Don't suppose you have and scientific papers supporting anything of the above?

I think you are confusing the technology and the operator.
Energy price hikes are more likely due to rising profits than infrastructure...
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/energy-and-resources/profits-at-esb-rise-by-80-million-as-squeeze-on-costs-continues-1.1725185

Otherwise how can energy be cheaper in other countries?

Our energy mix and reliance on imported fuels is the reason why our prices is so high

ted1 · 22-05-2014 10:33pm

H3llR4iser wrote: »

And not only that - the way power is used in Ireland is extremely inefficient: Most households still fully rely on incandescent light bulbs, a lot of properties still have electric heating, electric showers and the awful immersion tanks, and in many cases we are talking about archaic implementations of these. Even without a recession, energy use would still go down as houses and businesses get updated to more energy-efficient technologies.

Loads of inaccuracies there. Electric showers are in most cases actually more efficent.
When I use my electric shower I heat the exact amount if water I use and not the full 300 litres of water In the tank and rads. Even after looking at the efficiency of how the electricity is generated and compare that to my boiler I reckon that the shower is still more efficent.

ted1 · 22-05-2014 10:38pm

deegs wrote: »

SEAI-government/eu funded initiative = biased
http://www.seai.ie/About_Us/SEAI-and-EU-ERDF-Funding/

eirgrid - private business = biased
http://www.eirgrid.com/aboutus/

SEAI= Brendan Halligan= bias towards wind and very very pro wind

deegs · 22-05-2014 10:45pm

ted1 wrote: »

Our energy mix and reliance on imported fuels is the reason why our prices is so high

To be fair, if esb made less profit, prices would be lower correct?

And it doesn't matter what direction the bias moves toward, it's still bias. Good for a read, but not good enough to argue or state as fact.

AngryHippie · 23-05-2014 1:53am

ted1 wrote: »

Industry and closure if factories etc are to blame. The domestic market makes up very little of the overall system demand

When I said "People"
I also meant business manager, production managers, employees etc. etc.

They are all people, and if the direction is given within an organization to minimize power consumption, it will normally happen, whether the organization is a company or a household.

As for companies closing their doors, that is another matter and a good point.

To make this discussion just about Ireland is a very narrow minded view for a global issue though. It makes not a hat of sh1te difference if we had zero emissions as long as the US, China, India etc. continue to increase emissions and grow both population and consumption, the global risks will continue to grow. But then it becomes about climate change deniers and turns into a different discussion all of a sudden.

Wind power is a very low Carbon output energy source compared to the alternatives available. As such, a network should be constructed to harness this power. Whether it is utilised to feed into the current grid, or to feed an energy storage system, or as part of an overall grid and energy system upgrade is really a moot point.
The ugly truths pointed out in the initial post are mild inconveniences of our current system, which has a lifetime in any case.
There always has been and will always be wind, somewhere. Not always 100% predictable, not always constant, but it will be there.

Statements like the OP's are typical of Hydrocarbon industry apologists, whose only goal is to delay action, deny obvious truths, hamper innovation and generally frustrate and misdirect any action to try and improve the direction we are travelling in as a species and a planet.

fclauson · 23-05-2014 6:01am

deegs wrote: »

U state the first two points as fact, you are incorrect, or do u have some evidence?

And how does you comment about pylons relate to back up generator for turbines?

Frankly I'm amazed at your ability to continue this thread by avoiding and legitimate facts and dancing around straight

Ok - these are not peer reviewed - but lets take them at face value

http://www.thejournal.ie/wind-energy-ireland-production-demand-grid-figures-1328668-Feb2014/

and

http://euanmearns.com/correlated-wind-and-incoherent-energy-policy/

where on the 7th of Jan would we get power for the European network ?

If as you suggest we put more and more wind in place here in Ireland, come a calm day (see my earlier diagram) we have to purchase power from somewhere - and on those days of low wind the purchase price goes up. We could be held ransom by other nations and have to purchase power at a higher price.

We already have one of the highest prices of electricity in Europe. We use the UK/Ireland interconnector regularly (although he have the generation capacity here) because ite cheaper for Eirgrid to purchase UK electricity than use our own. IF we did not have to purchase the wind energy first in Ireland we would have cheaper electricity.

djpbarry · 23-05-2014 10:12am

fclauson wrote: »

not if there is a lack of wind across swathes of Europe…

At what point did I say the whole of Europe should become completely dependent on wind-derived electricity?

fclauson wrote: »

not when you are talking about a couple of hour ramp time for a generator…

Gas-fired power plants don’t take a couple of hours to fire up.

fclauson wrote: »

and that is the whole pylon argument

Eh?

fclauson wrote: »

If as you suggest we put more and more wind in place here in Ireland, come a calm day (see my earlier diagram) we have to purchase power from somewhere - and on those days of low wind the purchase price goes up. We could be held ransom by other nations and have to purchase power at a higher price.

On very windy days, Ireland could be in a position to export power. It’s a two-way street.

You need to stop thinking of Ireland as an isolated, self-contained generator/consumer of electricity and start thinking of it as a sub-subsection of a European super-grid.

fclauson wrote: »

We already have one of the highest prices of electricity in Europe.

More nonsense.

ted1 · 23-05-2014 11:20am

AngryHippie wrote: »

Statements like the OP's are typical of Hydrocarbon industry apologists, whose only goal is to delay action, deny obvious truths, hamper innovation and generally frustrate and misdirect any action to try and improve the direction we are travelling in as a species and a planet.

See I think that wind is the lazy option that hampers innovation. It tricks people into thinking were using clean energy and that we have an answer. It gets thrown in with wave and tidal energy.

When really there is no commercially viable tidal or wave energy. It indeed probably takes focus and finance away from these thechnologies which is wrong. Tidal energy is realiable and can be pedicted not forecasted,years in advanced. And as long as the earth keeps spinning, the tide will be guaranteed to come in and out twice a day

AngryHippie · 23-05-2014 11:37am

ted1 wrote: »

See I think that wind is the lazy option that hampers innovation. It tricks people into thinking were using clean energy and that we have an answer. It gets thrown in with wave and tidal energy.

When really there is no commercially viable tidal or wave energy. It indeed probably takes focus and finance away from these thechnogirs which is wrong. Tidal energy is realiable and can be pedicted not forecasted years in advanced. And as long as the earth keeps spinning, the tide will be guaranteed to come in and out twice a day

Correct, and it will also have a slack twice a day.
Read about the rule of twelfths, and you will understand that it reaches peak flow for 2-4 hours per day, the rest of the time it is accelerating or decelerating. So to call tidal power constant, is also a misnomer, and to insinuate that we can just plug it into the grid any more than we can wind is equally disingenuous.
So in that, Wind, and Tide have a common requirement, they both need capacity for storage, or for an intelligent rapidly switchable grid, or LV devices.
The same will be true of most renewables. They are not constant. Solar - day and night. Tide - Ebb and Flow. Wind - Gust and Calm.
The ultimate solution will be a combination of all of those available, with energy storage solutions to smooth out the peaks and troughs in order to make it suitable for some form of the distribution system we have today.
Maybe I'm out of the box on this one, I'm not sure, but ruling out something that does work, but could be better, on the basis that something else might work and might be better is a pretty sure fire way to waste valuable time.

fclauson · 23-05-2014 11:45am

AngryHippie wrote: »

..

Statements like the OP's are typical of Hydrocarbon industry apologists, whose only goal is to delay action, deny obvious truths, hamper innovation and generally frustrate and misdirect any action to try and improve the direction we are travelling in as a species and a planet.

Steady - my issues is from all the maths that I have seen Wind is not economic and not that carbon efficient

degs and djbarry keep telling me I should look at facts an number - but no one has shown me any where wind really is that much better than say other methods

Wind has a MASSIVE impact across out country with environmental impact (roads, steel, magnets, copper .... ) but it still classed as green. Then it cannot be relied upon unless we link up a huge set of inter connectors to share power - a good idea but no ROI has been shown for this. Its also having server community impact - speak to anyone who lives near a wind farm or has planning proposal for a wind farm.

There are too many people each pitching there stall and very few which seem to clearly articulate

Demand in Ireland is XX and will grow YY
Currently we can get ZZ Mw/h from QQ power stations
and the choices are

a) Wind & Gas = cost €€€
b) do nothing = cost €€€€
c) coal + wind = €€€
d) ....

All of the ROI out there is spun by an interested party

So given all the learned folks here - who could help put together a valid ROI with a set of priced options which are actually true and correct

fclauson · 23-05-2014 11:47am

AngryHippie wrote: »

Correct, and it will also have a slack twice a day.
Read about the rule of twelfths, and you will understand that it reaches peak flow for 2-4 hours per day, the rest of the time it is accelerating or decelerating. So to call tidal power constant, is also a misnomer, and to insinuate that we can just plug it into the grid any more than we can wind is equally disingenuous.
So in that, Wind, and Tide have a common requirement, they both need capacity for storage, or for an intelligent rapidly switchable grid, or LV devices.
The same will be true of most renewables. They are not constant. Solar - day and night. Tide - Ebb and Flow. Wind - Gust and Calm.
The ultimate solution will be a combination of all of those available, with energy storage solutions to smooth out the peaks and troughs in order to make it suitable for some form of the distribution system we have today.
Maybe I'm out of the box on this one, I'm not sure, but ruling out something that does work, but could be better, on the basis that something else might work and might be better is a pretty sure fire way to waste valuable time.

we posted at the same time - agree with your points - but we need to build cost into the mix. It may be that using a hydrocarbon in the most efficient way - may actually prove better than tying to fit together all these other technologies.

I just don't know - but my original post still holds - loads and loads of wind just ain't the answer

H3llR4iser · 23-05-2014 11:50am

ted1 wrote: »

Loads of inaccuracies there. Electric showers are in most cases actually more efficent.
When I use my electric shower I heat the exact amount if water I use and not the full 300 litres of water In the tank and rads. Even after looking at the efficiency of how the electricity is generated and compare that to my boiler I reckon that the shower is still more efficent.

Loads? Heating is better off running on gas - the efficiency is the same if not marginally better, the energy prices lower and it'd leave the electricity available for other tasks; Cooking should be the same - I have hardly ever seen a gas cooker in Ireland.

If your boiler heats up the radiators when you take a shower, you have a broken diverter valve...a modern tankless one should only be heating the water that goes through the pipes and is used at the moment, more or less like the electric shower, only using a significantly more economical energy source.

dutopia · 23-05-2014 11:52am

Sorry, but I can't take any argument seriously written in papyrus font with a lack of punctuation.

AngryHippie · 23-05-2014 11:56am

fclauson wrote: »

Wind has a MASSIVE impact across out country with environmental impact (roads, steel, magnets, copper .... ) but it still classed as green. Then it cannot be relied upon unless we link up a huge set of inter connectors to share power - a good idea but no ROI has been shown for this. Its also having server community impact - speak to anyone who lives near a wind farm or has planning proposal for a wind farm.

Its this simple:
It has a fixed cost of installation, with a calculable carbon footprint, and forecastable maintenance cost. The output generated from it does not depend on an input from any further carbon inputs, beyond the maintenance, which can be broken down to an "overhead"

Hydrocarbon based power, on the other hand, has a fixed cost of installation, and a variable maintenance cost (depending on use, quality of fuel, duty cycles etc) and the output generated is 100% dependent on carbon inputs, the price, quality and availability of which will all fluctuate wildly based on supply and demand.

If you can accept the above statement as being more or less correct, then you can appreciate that our current system is a very high risk prospect for the future, and as such we should be doing everything we can (both in terms of investment incentives and research incentives) to future proof our energy supply.
It being a "live" system, it is never going to be as simple as lets make a plan now and roll it out over three years, particularly given where we are on the learning curve regarding renewable energy systems (and have been for most of the current millenium because the hydrocarbon industry is stifling it at every turn, from climate change denial, to fcuking proxy wars all over the world).
We need to move on from the assumption, and evolve our system. If that means we need to change the way we live, and the way we use power, then that needs to happen too. But at the rate we are going, we are fcuked.:(

djpbarry · 23-05-2014 12:18pm

ted1 wrote: »

See I think that wind is the lazy option that hampers innovation. It tricks people into thinking were using clean energy and that we have an answer.

I think that has to be the most ridiculous argument against harnessing wind power that I’ve come across to date.

djpbarry · 23-05-2014 12:18pm

fclauson wrote: »

Steady - my issues is from all the maths that I have seen Wind is not economic and not that carbon efficient

How about some maths to back up that statement?

fclauson wrote: »

degs and djbarry keep telling me I should look at facts an number - but no one has shown me any where wind really is that much better than say other methods

Well you obviously haven’t been looking very hard. The cost of onshore wind has repeatedly been shown to be competitive with conventional generation technologies:

http://en.openei.org/apps/TCDB/index.php?pMin=2009&pMax=2013&dMin=2009&dMax=2012&gf=h&dol=0&l=n&pub=&t=lcoe&ct=b

fclauson wrote: »

loads and loads of wind just ain't the answer

Nobody has said that it is.

ted1 · 23-05-2014 12:32pm

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Loads? Heating is better off running on gas - the efficiency is the same if not marginally better, the energy prices lower and it'd leave the electricity available for other tasks; Cooking should be the same - I have hardly ever seen a gas cooker in Ireland.

If your boiler heats up the radiators when you take a shower, you have a broken diverter valve...a modern tankless one should only be heating the water that goes through the pipes and is used at the moment, more or less like the electric shower, only using a significantly more economical energy source.

There's a large section of the market who have older heating systems where it's either on or off and the capital cost to change the system makes not financially viable

ted1 · 23-05-2014 12:35pm

djpbarry wrote: »

I think that has to be the most ridiculous argument against harnessing wind power that I’ve come across to date.

It makes perfect sense, people are being told turbines are the future that we have loads of wind power and will be exporting it, that keeps them happy. There not told that the remaining 70% of the time we have to use fossil fuel .

ted1 · 23-05-2014 12:38pm

AngryHippie wrote: »

Correct, and it will also have a slack twice a day.
Read about the rule of twelfths, and you will understand that it reaches peak flow for 2-4 hours per day, the rest of the time it is accelerating or decelerating. So to call tidal power constant, is also a misnomer, and to insinuate that we can just plug it into the grid any more than we can wind is equally disingenuous.
So in that, Wind, and Tide have a common requirement, they both need capacity for storage, or for an intelligent rapidly switchable grid, or LV devices.
The same will be true of most renewables. They are not constant. Solar - day and night. Tide - Ebb and Flow. Wind - Gust and Calm.
The ultimate solution will be a combination of all of those available, with energy storage solutions to smooth out the peaks and troughs in order to make it suitable for some form of the distribution system we have today.
Maybe I'm out of the box on this one, I'm not sure, but ruling out something that does work, but could be better, on the basis that something else might work and might be better is a pretty sure fire way to waste valuable time.

The difference is I can pick up tide tables in the shop that will give me the tide for the next few years. I can now plan my generation capacity and put a schedule in place. This leads to a much better form of generation than having spinning reserve ready for unpredictable wind energy.

fclauson · 23-05-2014 1:02pm

Ditto

and when the wind does not blow I'll import it from somewhere else in Europe - and if they have no wind then I'll have to rely on their nuclear/fossil plants - and if they don't have enough capacity within those plants for their own market then they will not sell to ireland and ireland goes dark

not a good plan

fclauson · 23-05-2014 1:05pm

ted1 wrote: »

It makes perfect sense, people are being told turbines are the future that we have loads of wind power and will be exporting it, that keeps them happy. There not told that the remaining 70% of the time we have to use fossil fuel .

the stats support we get less than 15% of the installed capacity from wind on average so given the average Ireland load of around 4500M/w we will need 18,000 installed capacity which costs €€€€€€€ - and is useless if there is no wind

and by the way going through the approval process is some 25000

it all just does no add up

Mr Chuckles · 23-05-2014 1:05pm

I don't think wind turbines are sustainable. According to a UK report, they have a life span of between 10 and 15 years. There are questions whether the concrete foundation, at about 1000 tonnes a go, will survive the life of the turbine without cracking, due to fatigue. Then there is the cost of connecting wind farms to the grid.

fclauson · 23-05-2014 1:13pm

I'll accept the abuse this is not peer reviewed

but it does show madness if its true -

BoUYogWCQAA5pjU.png:large

djpbarry · 23-05-2014 1:44pm

ted1 wrote: »

It makes perfect sense, people are being told turbines are the future that we have loads of wind power and will be exporting it...

People are being told this by whom exactly?

ted1 wrote: »

The difference is I can pick up tide tables in the shop that will give me the tide for the next few years. I can now plan my generation capacity and put a schedule in place. This leads to a much better form of generation than having spinning reserve ready for unpredictable wind energy.

We can’t have wind and tidal?

djpbarry · 23-05-2014 1:44pm

Mr Chuckles wrote: »

I don't think wind turbines are sustainable. According to a UK report, they have a life span of between 10 and 15 years.

What report is this?

djpbarry · 23-05-2014 1:45pm

fclauson wrote: »

and when the wind does not blow I'll import it from somewhere else in Europe - and if they have no wind then I'll have to rely on their nuclear/fossil plants - and if they don't have enough capacity within those plants for their own market then they will not sell to ireland and ireland goes dark

not a good plan

No, it’s not, which is precisely why EU-wide collaboration on the matter is what is required and it's certainly attainable.

fclauson wrote: »

the stats support we get less than 15% of the installed capacity from wind on average…

What stats are these?

fclauson wrote: »

I'll accept the abuse this is not peer reviewed

but it does show madness if its true -

Does it? How?

A screenshot of a graph you’ve made in Excel does not an argument make.

fclauson · 23-05-2014 1:54pm

djpbarry wrote: »

No, it’s not, which is precisely why EU-wide collaboration on the matter is what is required and it's certainly attainable.

ok - but we are a long way off that

What stats are these?

http://www.eirgrid.com/media/All-Island_Wind_and_Fuel_Mix_Report_Summary_2013.pdf
and the graph
System Average Monthly Wind Penetration %

Does it? How?

A screenshot of a graph you’ve made in Excel does not an argument make.

Ok - take a look at the graph - why has capacity increased with no demand increase

djpbarry · 23-05-2014 2:06pm

fclauson wrote: »

http://www.eirgrid.com/media/All-Island_Wind_and_Fuel_Mix_Report_Summary_2013.pdf
and the graph
System Average Monthly Wind Penetration %

But you said "we get less than 15% of the installed capacity from wind on average".

That report suggests an average capacity factor of about 30%. You're confusing penetration with capacity factor.

fclauson wrote: »

Ok - take a look at the graph - why has capacity increased with no demand increase

You think capacity should only increase in response to demand?

ted1 · 23-05-2014 2:09pm

djpbarry wrote: »

People are being told this by whom exactly?

the Media, government etc.

djpbarry wrote: »

We can’t have wind and tidal?

We can put at the moment we are putting all our eggs in the wind basket. We need to scale back wind projects.

Mr Chuckles · 23-05-2014 2:21pm

fclauson wrote: »

the stats support we get less than 15% of the installed capacity from wind on average so given the average Ireland load of around 4500M/w we will need 18,000 installed capacity which costs €€€€€€€ - and is useless if there is no wind

and by the way going through the approval process is some 25000

it all just does no add up

I wonder if that 25000 takes into account, that the project to build wind farms in the midlands to export "green" energy to England, is now not going ahead (thankfully).

Mr Chuckles · 23-05-2014 2:35pm

djpbarry wrote: »

What report is this?

The study by Gordon Hughes. I can't post a link, but search for
"Wear and Tear Hits Wind Farm Output and Economic Lifetime"

deegs · 23-05-2014 3:08pm

I was dismayed to see this going to its 6th page without the OP referencing any science and just randomly posting nonsense...

Then I thought feckit... if you can't beat em!

So anyway, a recent report said that wind power cost less than any other type of power ever invented and that for long term sustainability it actually costs less than all other sources combined.
Whats more the training required to setup and maintain these things can actually increase a countries GDP by over 10% by educating staff an importing experts.
Research is well underway where whole offshore wind farms can be be combined with tidal and wave systems to form floating cities that have a negative cost to build.

Basically in the next five years all houses will actually be built with a 1800ft wind turbine baloons attached to our houses to give us free power....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsHUALU--Wc

And, even though I can't actually reference any of the above, you gotta believe me... cos its true!!!!!!! Honest.

And the best bit!!! The more wind farms the more romance in your life (see attached for PROOF)

djpbarry · 23-05-2014 3:30pm

ted1 wrote: »

the Media, government

Can you be a bit more specific? Maybe link to a particular government report, for example?

djpbarry · 23-05-2014 3:31pm

Mr Chuckles wrote: »

The study by Gordon Hughes. I can't post a link…

Why not?

ted1 · 23-05-2014 3:48pm

djpbarry wrote: »

Can you be a bit more specific? Maybe link to a particular government report, for example?

I never said reports, Reports are for industry. Statements are for public, Most Irish people don't read reports, they read snippets and statements.

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Press+Releases/2012/Wind+power+is+key+to+Irish+energy+future+and+Announcement+of+REFIT+2.htm

http://www.epa.ie/researchandeducation/education/educ/sustainableresourceuse/windenergy-poweringthefuture/#.U39fctJdVXE

djpbarry · 23-05-2014 4:26pm

ted1 wrote: »

I never said reports, Reports are for industry. Statements are for public, Most Irish people don't read reports, they read snippets and statements.

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Press+Releases/2012/Wind+power+is+key+to+Irish+energy+future+and+Announcement+of+REFIT+2.htm

http://www.epa.ie/researchandeducation/education/educ/sustainableresourceuse/windenergy-poweringthefuture/#.U39fctJdVXE

Right. So what's the problem with those two pages you've linked to?

ted1 · 23-05-2014 4:46pm

djpbarry wrote: »

Right. So what's the problem with those two pages you've linked to?

the very headline Wind power is key to Irish energy future

djpbarry · 23-05-2014 5:20pm

ted1 wrote: »

the very headline Wind power is key to Irish energy future

You think that headline "tricks people into thinking we're using clean energy and that we have an answer"?

Because to me, all it says is that wind power will play an important role.

mister gullible · 23-05-2014 11:35pm

It's unbelievable that a country on the windswept edge of Europe with many areas of sparse population is not generating massive amounts of electricity from wind. It is a vast untapped resource. Seems obvious that heavy wind generation, when the wind blows, will more than cancel out the loss of efficiency in ramping conventional backup plants up and down. A visit to the massive wind farm south of Glasgow is interesting - the turbines are an impressive feature of the landscape and the maintenance/access roads are open to hikers/bikers etc with good parking supplied (free). Whenever I travel through the midlands and west I wonder where are all the windmills? And they should be generating power for ordinary Irish people, not for other countries. Let's not go down the road of selling off our resources cheaply as has been done in the past to profit major corporations. Power to the people!!

ted1 · 24-05-2014 12:23am

mister gullible wrote: »

It's unbelievable that a country on the windswept edge of Europe with many areas of sparse population is not generating massive amounts of electricity from wind. It is a vast untapped resource. Seems obvious that heavy wind generation, when the wind blows, will more than cancel out the loss of efficiency in ramping conventional backup plants up and down. A visit to the massive wind farm south of Glasgow is interesting - the turbines are an impressive feature of the landscape and the maintenance/access roads are open to hikers/bikers etc with good parking supplied (free). Whenever I travel through the midlands and west I wonder where are all the windmills? And they should be generating power for ordinary Irish people, not for other countries. Let's not go down the road of selling off our resources cheaply as has been done in the past to profit major corporations. Power to the people!!

Grids are limited in how much wind they can handle, there distributed generation that cause frequency and voltage issues.

Turbines have cut in and cut out speeds, strong winds don't suit them not does low wind.

Your are an example of the type person I was highlighting in my previous posts

fclauson · 24-05-2014 7:07am

Well - I have to thank everyone for their input

we have the interested - those who want to contribute with valid additional info (thank you)
we have the non-believers who will knock any think that says wind farms are BAD
we have the non believers who will knock any thing that says wind farms are GOOD
we have those who cannot be bother to comment - but comment that they cannot be bothered
and they ones who make silly comments because they are irritated that I make statements which contain invalid data

but the ones that irritate me most are the ones who disagree and FAIL to provide valid counter peer reviewed data to show that I am wrong

More importantly
No one has answered the elephants in the room - and the reason for my original post
when the wind drops where does the power come from
which power stations have been decommissioned as a result of wind energy
and
the biggest elephant (which no one seems to be able to provide me with data on) how much C02 is saved by wind farms given than no one can show what power stations actually slow down or stop during wind. Spinning reserve (available dispatchable backup) is an evil fact of life on the grid but seems to go unqualified in any report one reads.

A statement from the SEAI
Regarding the matter of reserve requirements, the key determining factor is the size of the largest thermal generating unit on the system, and is not affected by wind generation at current levels. This is because the key issue is predictability: for thermal generators an unexpected breakdown can happen at any point, is generally unpredictable and can result in large short term ramping requirements. The largest unit on the system is 480 MW in size with the interconnector being 500MW. These determine the reserve requirements.

Reading this - regardless of how much wind we have Eirgird always have to have spinning reserve to cover the thermal plants to match if one pops off line and the largest of these is 48Mw - so there is 480mw of disptachable power always sitting there to bring on line (and its belching out C02 all the time as its sits there)

SO BACK TO MY FIRST QUESTION
How much C02 is saved by wind farms

fclauson · 24-05-2014 7:34am

Sorry - I forgot to say where I fell in the list above.

Its all about the data - I follow the 4 P's as I did when I built the first (and currently only) A1 Passive Certified House in Ireland

P - Pragmatic (it make sense)
P - Price conscious (its affordable)
P - Practical (it can be built given current capability)
P - Passive (it aims for as lower impact on the environment (as possible)

Note on low impact to environment:this has to have regard to the visual impact, noise impact, land use impact, C02 out put impact, materials used in construction impact, and I am sure some others too

Our energy infrastructure could do little better than follow the above

ted1 · 24-05-2014 7:54am

fclauson wrote: »

Well - I have to thank everyone for their input

we have the interested - those who want to contribute with valid additional info (thank you)
we have the non-believers who will knock any think that says wind farms are BAD
we have the non believers who will knock any thing that says wind farms are GOOD
we have those who cannot be bother to comment - but comment that they cannot be bothered
and they ones who make silly comments because they are irritated that I make statements which contain invalid data

but the ones that irritate me most are the ones who disagree and FAIL to provide valid counter peer reviewed data to show that I am wrong

More importantly
No one has answered the elephants in the room - and the reason for my original post
when the wind drops where does the power come from
which power stations have been decommissioned as a result of wind energy
and
the biggest elephant (which no one seems to be able to provide me with data on) how much C02 is saved by wind farms given than no one can show what power stations actually slow down or stop during wind. Spinning reserve (available dispatchable backup) is an evil fact of life on the grid but seems to go unqualified in any report one reads.

A statement from the SEAI
Regarding the matter of reserve requirements, the key determining factor is the size of the largest thermal generating unit on the system, and is not affected by wind generation at current levels. This is because the key issue is predictability: for thermal generators an unexpected breakdown can happen at any point, is generally unpredictable and can result in large short term ramping requirements. The largest unit on the system is 480 MW in size with the interconnector being 500MW. These determine the reserve requirements.

Reading this - regardless of how much wind we have Eirgird always have to have spinning reserve to cover the thermal plants to match if one pops off line and the largest of these is 48Mw - so there is 480mw of disptachable power always sitting there to bring on line (and its belching out C02 all the time as its sits there)

SO BACK TO MY FIRST QUESTION
How much C02 is saved by wind farms

Just because you mentioned the interconnect I must point out that Eirgrid won't include it when planning baseload because it fies guarantee security if supply

DSU is growing and there's an excess of over 150MW available for them to cover short term supply issues

Fabo · 24-05-2014 10:51am

mister gullible wrote: »

It's unbelievable that a country on the windswept edge of Europe with many areas of sparse population is not generating massive amounts of electricity from wind.

Whats the point ? We are still as dependent on fossil fuels with 2000MW as before.

Fabo · 24-05-2014 10:57am

fclauson wrote: »

SO BACK TO MY FIRST QUESTION
How much C02 is saved by wind farms

irrelevant. any savings occur in a much bigger system (20% bigger) than would otherwise have been the case.

if wind was so great we would be closing tarbert

Fabo · 24-05-2014 11:16am

ted1 wrote: »

Just because you mentioned the interconnect I must point out that Eirgrid won't include it when planning baseload because it fies guarantee security if supply

we're importing about 400-450MW during the day. Provides dispatchable power - mostly evil coal and evil nuclear.

Take this morning as I post this on 11:07am. Wind generation running at about 50% capacity, providing 30% penetration (meeting 30% of demand) , yet we are importing 430MW from England - the interconnector is running at 86% capacity ! crazy.

Wind energy is part of a reckless energy policy driving capacity to enormous levels way above demand or what is necessary.

The hypocrisy on the part of wind merchants is the worst part - burning coal and tapping nuclear is okay as long as its across the sea.

Old diesel · 24-05-2014 11:18am

I would recommend that anybody who believes wind energy technology is excellent and needs no improvement - should keep a sharp eye on @EirGrid_Info (on twitter) - over a long period of time.

It gives regular updates each day - showing at an exact point in time - what Demand was, how much wind output was recorded as - and how much we import and export to the UK.

I believe that its not completely perfect - Francis (OP of this tread) will have much more understanding of this then I do.

but on FAR too many occasions - you will see wind performing poorly - down to single figures even.

The reason that's relevant - well 2 reasons really - firstly we are expecting to achieve 40 percent electricity from this Wind resource.

Secondly - the fact that wind performs poorly at times - means you NEED more wind turbines to achieve the required performance over say a 12 month period.

This is also the reason - imo - why we need more pylons - so we can move lots of wind production around the country in one go - we need to do that I think simply to use as much wind energy as possible when its available.

Going to have a look at that eirgrid twitter account I mentioned at the start and produce some examples

Old diesel · 24-05-2014 11:32am

Okay - some Eirgrid stats (source @EirGrid_Info on twitter)

21 May 17,45 pm Demand 4,513 MW Wind output - 77 MW

21 May 16,45 pm Demand 4,517 MW Wind Output - 75 MW

20 May 12,45 pm Demand 4,663 MW Wind Output - 128 MW

20 May 11,45 pm Demand 4,601 MW Wind Output - 93 MW

19 May 12,45 pm Demand 4,580 MW Wind Output 137 MW

19 May 11,45 pm Demand 4,522 MW Wind Output 143 MW

To put that into perspective - our Rep of Ireland rated max out put is around 1,950 MW - and I think the stats are all Ireland stats - our total All Ireland max rated output is around 2,400 MW

Of course I could produce more but that will do for now

Old diesel · 24-05-2014 11:39am

Fabo wrote: »

we're importing about 400-450MW during the day. Provides dispatchable power - mostly evil coal and evil nuclear.

Take this morning as I post this on 11:07am. Wind generation running at about 50% capacity, providing 30% penetration (meeting 30% of demand) , yet we are importing 430MW from England - the interconnector is running at 86% capacity ! crazy.

Wind energy is part of a reckless energy policy driving capacity to enormous levels way above demand or what is necessary.

The hypocrisy on the part of wind merchants is the worst part - burning coal and tapping nuclear is okay as long as its across the sea.

Bear in mind that today is actually quite a good day for wind - you all too often get times of VERY low output from wind - like the stats ive produced.

I can put up more stats - theres just too many to go through :eek:

Wind farms - ugly truths

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