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Could Monsanto Destroy Irelands Farmers

13

Comments

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    His crop wasn't wiped out, read the wiki again: He testified that he then harvested that crop, saved it separately from his other harvest, and intentionally planted it in 1998.
    Again, I'm not saying I agree with Monsanto suing him, but if you want to know why he didn't sue them himself in the first place, you will need to ask himself yourself, because I don't know.
    My point is not to take the Wiki article as the bible. Quoting wiki is no way to win an argument.
    I accept the above as evidence of Monsanto being incredibly loose with litigation, I have no problem with that. I, however, wanted specific examples of Monsanto doing what Squeaky the Squirrel claimed (suing farmers simply because their crops where naturally contaminated with Monsanto seeds).
    The above is an example.
    I'm not disputing anything in that report, but just to point out that its not the US Centre for Food Safety, its the Centre for Food Safety. Its not a US governmental organisation (maybe you didn't mean this, but it looks implied by how its written), its a non-profit that promotes organic food and sustainable agriculture. You should expect, not be surprised by, reports on the actions of GM companies coming from it.
    If you find an error in their report, please let me know.
    :confused: What language?
    Dismissive language of those you don't agree with. No in-thread discussion of moderation.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,783 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Macha wrote: »
    My point is not to take the Wiki article as the bible. Quoting wiki is no way to win an argument.

    And out of hand dismissing wiki is also no way to win an argument. If you have evidence that the wiki described the situation wrong (note that wiki takes the data straight from the US federal courts website) then present it.
    Macha wrote: »
    The above is an example.

    The Percy Schmeiser case is not one of a farmer being sued simply because his crops were contaminated. He was sued because his crops were contaminated, he confirmed this, and then purposefully and specifically replanted the seeds of the contaminated crop. Do I agree with this? No, of course not. It is certainly a business practise of Monsanto's to be critical of and something that they shouldn't be allowed sue for. But it is not what Squeaky the Squirrel described.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,783 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill



    Firstly, this article omits a key part of the text of the legislation:
    "Provided, That all such conditions shall be applicable only for the interim period necessary for the Secretary to complete any required analyses or consultations related to the petition for non-regulated status: Provided further, That nothing in this section shall be construed as limiting the Secretary’s authority under section 411, 412 and 414 of the Plant Protection Act. "
    I.e., the bit that does actually allow the government act on a crop if they decide there is a need to.

    Secondly, article doesn't go through the text itself, it simply reports what these other groups say: "According to an array of food and consumer groups, organic farmers, civil liberty and trade unions and others,...".

    Now, as to what it reports them saying: " It means, they say, that not even the US government can now stop the sale, planting, harvest or distribution of any GM seed, even if it is linked to illness or environmental problems." The problem here is firstly, they leave out what the US government can do if a link is found (most likely, these other groups are also ignoring the last few lines from section 735 as well), and secondly, what is meant by the word "linked"? Its possible, especially if you don't know anything about science, to find a "link" between nearly any food, or activity, and illnesses or environmental problems. The Daily Mail reports a different cancer causing food or activity every other day. What this legislation does it that it prevents action being taken against a crop that is simply "linked" to illness or environmental problems until the Agriculture Secretary reviews and assesses those links (if the guardian article didn't omit the last piece of text from section 735, they would have seen this). It's essentially an application of "innocent until proven guilty", and while I would not be against a tweak of the legislation allowing food on sale to be pulled if the link initially seems strong (just to be safe) I don't see much of an issue with it.


    ^^Squeakys ears nearly glazed over never mind his eyes.:pac:

    His description of the law is wrong. Under the new law, if a crops regulated status (the status it gets if its already been approved) is found to have been improperly granted, likely because of bureaucratic reasons, then the crop is protected until those reasons are confirmed and assessed. If the crop's regulated status is found to have been improperly granted, because it turns out to be a biological pest, then it can still be acted upon according to the Plant Protection Act (this is what the last few lines of section 735, everything after "Provided, That all such", mean). It even states in the middle that the protection is only granted if its in agreement with the Plant Protection Act, "immediately grant temporary permit(s) or temporary deregulation in part, subject to necessary and appropriate conditions consistent with section 411(a) or 412(c) of the Plant Protection Act".

    His points on the amount of Monsanto employees being recruited into governmental positions is more interesting. In general I would be supportive of more independent people in governmental positions.

    I'm going to split the rest of your post into a different reply, to kept the posts from getting too long.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,783 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill



    With all due respect to some retired plant scientist who wrote a letter, why should the USDA have acted on his advice? According to your links, he found a completely new pathogen that no one saw before, claims it was in animals with increased infertility rates, suffering spontaneous abortions and that it is more prevalent in GM crops. But where is the evidence? Where are the peer reviewed papers describing this pathogen's discover and identification, the double-blind, peer-reviewed studies showing a causal link between it and infertility/spontaneous abortions? Were is the peer-reviewed studies showing that the pathogen is prevalent only in GM crops/

    If these tests and studies are prohibited, where do all the specific claims about the health risks of GMOs come from?
    While this is a very important issue (I'm not denying it happens and I'm all for independent research), it does call into question where all the specific negative health claims come from, if no negative research can be published.
    You seem to think it's OK for untested crap to be on sale before its proven to be safe.

    Since when? Please point to where I said that.
    WTF again?! They're getting sued for having GM on their land that they didn't put their. I'd say they understand it alright.

    No, they are getting insurance against simply having GM crop on their land they didn't plant there themselves. Still waiting for an example of someone getting sued just for having his/her crop contaminated.
    GMO belongs in a Glasshouse in an underground bunker in the Atacama Desert as far as squeaky is concerned, it's doing way to much harm and it's touted benefits seem to be only getting further away.

    Everything is genetically modified, you are a GM version of your parents. Would want a big bunker.
    Their'd be no need for it at all if powers that be did their job and started introducing measures to curb population growths.

    That may be true, but the fact is that we need high yield crops to grow enough food to feed everyone. And while I do support the notion of population control and reduction, I don't support accomplishing it by letting a lot of people starve.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭Squeaky the Squirrel


    http://gmoseralini.org/category/critics-answered/

    ^^Remember the French study with the Rats and the big tumors...

    rats-scientific-study.jpg

    the first to test the effects of eating a GM food and its associated pesticide over the animals' lifetime of two years (equivalent to about 9 years in a human), that everyone and their mother (within two hours of studys release) said was bull/flawed/wrong rat. Not so flawed after all...
    Monsanto's 90-day rat feeding study on this same GM maize had found differences in the GM-fed rats. But the EFSA claimed they were "of no biological significance" and agreed with Monsanto that the maize was as safe as non-GM maize. Séralini's team obtained Monsanto's raw data and re-analysed it. They found signs of liver and kidney toxicity in the GM-fed rats, publishing their findings in 2009.

    Séralini carried out his recent study to follow up these initial findings of toxicity and to see if they were insignificant, as the EFSA claimed, or if they developed into serious disease. The findings were alarming. The initial signs of toxicity in Monsanto's 90-day study developed into full-blown liver and kidney damage over the longer two-year period. The first tumours only showed up four to seven months into the study, peaking at 18 months.

    The common sense conclusions were clear. The 90-day tests routinely done on GM foods are simply too short to see effects that take time to show up, such as organ damage and cancer.
    Many of the critics were subsequently exposed as having commercial or career interests in GM technology – interests that went undisclosed in media articles that quoted them. The Science Media Centre itself has taken funding from GM and agrochemical companies. Government agencies that condemned the study, such as the EFSA, had been involved in GM crop approvals and so were simply defending their own decisions.

    critics said Séralini used a strain of rat prone to tumours. But Séralini used the same strain of rat that Monsanto used in its 90-day study on this GM maize and its two-year cancer studies on glyphosate, the chemical ingredient in Roundup herbicide. And research shows that this strain of rat is about as prone to tumours as you and I, making it an excellent human-equivalent cancer model.
    None of the scientists claimed that Séralini's study is perfect. All studies have flaws and limitations. But many said that this was the most detailed study that had ever been done on the health effects of a GM food that's already in our food supply. The clear conclusion is that all GM crops and pesticide formulations must be tested in lifetime feeding studies to determine any health risks to humans.
    In the Atacama bunker...
    His description of the law is wrong....
    Anything to back up yours? If the plant was safe in the first place their would be no need for this.
    The rider states that the U.S. Department of Agriculture “shall, notwithstanding any other provisions of law, immediately grant temporary permits to continue using the [GE] seed at the request of a farmer or producer [Monsanto].” The bill effectively requires the USDA to give Monsanto a green light to promote GMO seeds.


    Even if a court review determines that a GMO crop harms humans, Section 735 allows the seeds to be planted once the USDA approves them. Public health lawyer Michele Simon says the Senate bill requires the USDA to “ignore any court ruling that would otherwise halt the planting of new genetically-engineered crops.” (nydailynews.com, March 25)


    The rider’s wording is so controversial that even USDA Secretary Tom Vilsack called on the Office of General Council to review it, noting, “It appears to pre-empt judicial review of a deregulatory action which may make the provision unenforceable.” (politico.com, March 25)


    Prior to the bill’s passage, 13 new GMO seed crops awaited USDA authorization. Now these endorsements are almost certainly guaranteed, even though previous legal challenges overturned USDA sanctions of other GMO crops. No doubt Monsanto and other GMO companies will use the next six months to fast track their new seeds.
    You'd really have to wonder about these 13 that they need the law changed before they are released.:eek:

    http://www.workers.org/2013/04/07/monsanto-protection-act-chemical-monopoly-writes-its-own-law/

    His points on the amount of Monsanto employees being recruited into governmental positions is more interesting.
    That's only 2. More later...
    With all due respect to some retired plant scientist who wrote a letter, why should the USDA have acted on his advice? According to your links, he found a completely new pathogen that no one saw before, claims it was in animals with increased infertility rates, suffering spontaneous abortions and that it is more prevalent in GM crops. But where is the evidence? Where are the peer reviewed papers describing this pathogen's discover and identification, the double-blind, peer-reviewed studies showing a causal link between it and infertility/spontaneous abortions? Were is the peer-reviewed studies showing that the pathogen is prevalent only in GM crops/
    He says
    "We are informing the USDA of our findings at this early stage, specifically due to your pending decision regarding approval of alfalfa," Huber said. "Naturally, if either the Roundup Ready gene or Roundup itself is a promoter or co-factor of this pathogen, then such approval could be a calamity."
    assuming with his experience
    "For the past 40 years, I have been a scientist in the professional and military agencies that evaluate and prepare for natural and man-made biological threats, including germ warfare and disease outbreaks," Huber wrote in a Jan. 16 letter to Vilsack.

    "Based on this experience, I believe the threat we are facing from this pathogen is unique and of a high risk status. In layman's terms, it should be treated as an emergency,"
    would make them take heed. They probably just wondered for awhile where they could spend that....and then realised they couldn't.

    If these tests and studies are prohibited, where do all the specific claims about the health risks of GMOs come from?
    While this is a very important issue (I'm not denying it happens and I'm all for independent research), it does call into question where all the specific negative health claims come from, if no negative research can be published.
    No Federal Funding given and special permission needed to get a trial going in US...because of this. Some choose to ignore, like the french one above (and only a few hundred others, tiny considering how long this poisonous shite is out)

    Still waiting for an example of someone getting sued just for having his/her crop contaminated.
    Wayhey!:D I was wondering why you kept on about this, nothings popping on first google,:confused:, Hmm, GM gene will be found in an entire crop with cross-tamination from the wind, accuse every little Farmer of deliberately sowing rather than accidental??
    https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:rai8ntyLFGcJ:www.centerforfoodsafety.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Monsanto-v-US-Farmer-2012-Update-final.pdf+&hl=en&gl=ie&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgsnt1kKAmF775NgzczWv8JZYa8WdIiodaQXlBZce5SmhTnT6W1I5H96Jqz-gwUJMbaduTQHQ8e-hjsOTt4KF0coQEh4YOmtSvsBabi0dVhvVxQI90TAsxl_I7SMZs8RNINMbxR&sig=AHIEtbRCGdmsVU66EcQt8CBCKWIlr9sChA
    That's alot of out of court settlements^^Farmer plays ball and gets to keep farm? Need to look at this more when it's not 5am.

    Everything is genetically modified,
    Can't compare traditional crossbreeding with mixing of viral, bacterial and/or animal genes with plants--->which I'd have nothing against if it was in the bunker.

    Actually on that,


    Alfalfa (first planting 2011)
    Canola (approx. 90% of U.S. crop)
    Corn (approx. 88% of U.S. crop in 2011)
    Cotton (approx. 90% of U.S. crop in 2011)
    Papaya (most of Hawaiian crop; approximately 988 acres)
    Soy (approx. 94% of U.S. crop in 2011)
    Sugar Beets (approx. 95% of U.S. crop in 2010)
    Zucchini and Yellow Summer Squash (approx. 25,000 acres)

    ^^How is that anyway clever, take Soy there at 94%, something unpredictable in one year could completely wipe it out, when we had ditches and different types/species at least their was a bit of protection.
    That may be true, but the fact is that we need high yield crops to grow enough food to feed everyone. And while I do support the notion of population control and reduction, I don't support accomplishing it by letting a lot of people starve.
    From Australian study linked in big PDF earlier in Thread, GM Yields are smaller than with conventional Seeds.

    The Truth Is Out on GM Foods -And Its Not Pretty
    “Several animal studies indicate serious health risks associated with GM food,” including infertility, immune problems, accelerated aging, insulin regulation, and changes in major organs and the gastrointestinal system.
    More and more doctors are already prescribing GM-free diets. Dr. Amy Dean, a Michigan internal medicine specialist, and board member of AAEM says, “I strongly recommend patients eat strictly non-genetically modified foods.”
    Biologist Pushpa M. Bhargava goes one step further. After reviewing more than 600 scientific journals, he concludes that genetically modified organisms (GMOs) are a major contributor to the sharply deteriorating health of Americans.
    in the first nine years after the large scale introduction of GM crops in 1996, the incidence of people with three or more chronic diseases nearly doubled, from 7% to 13%.
    9 Years you say...how long was the rats life equivalent again?


    Monsanto’s Harvest of Fear

    Pg5 of this^^, it's all worth a read though, on Human Growth Hormone in the US Milk and the measures Monsanto are going to to get labelling laws changed so people don't know which does/doesn't contain it.
    Today, nearly 15 years after the F.D.A. approved rBGH, there have still been no long-term studies “to determine the safety of milk from cows that receive artificial growth hormone,” says Michael Hansen, senior staff scientist for Consumers Union. Not only have there been no studies, he adds, but the data that does exist all comes from Monsanto. “There is no scientific consensus about the safety,” he says.
    Monsanto's Government Ties
    In order for the FDA to determine if Monsanto's growth hormones were safe or not, Monsanto was required to submit a scientific report on that topic. Margaret Miller, one of Monsanto's researchers put the report together. Shortly before the report submission, Miller left Monsanto and was hired by the FDA. Her first job for the FDA was to determine whether or not to approve the report she wrote for Monsanto. In short, Monsanto approved its own report.
    :eek::eek: You couldn't make this up!
    Monsanto began selling the supplement in 1994 under the name Posilac. Veterinary drug reports note that “cows injected with Posilac are at an increased risk for mastitis,” an udder infection in which bacteria and pus may be pumped out with the milk.
    UK is wasting some of the last effective Anti-Biotics we have treating Mastitis cuz of dirty cramped conditions.

    I assume US is using it for same, cuz of added chemical, that if sales of non-HGH Milk are anything to go by, no one bloody wants.

    abx_sales_infographic_2.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,783 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Can I ask that you try to refrain from posting about every GM crop in existence? I've responded to everything here, but I want to avoid these posts getting too long. Also don't link to blogs or websites without references to the actual source data (preferably peer reviewed papers, if its a study being discussed)
    http://gmoseralini.org/category/critics-answered/

    ^^Remember the French study with the Rats and the big tumors...

    rats-scientific-study.jpg

    the first to test the effects of eating a GM food and its associated pesticide over the animals' lifetime of two years (equivalent to about 9 years in a human), that everyone and their mother (within two hours of studys release) said was bull/flawed/wrong rat. Not so flawed after all...

    That would be the study where the author guy wont release the full details of the study or his full statistical analysis?
    The EFSA already re-evaluated and dismissed the study, noting that the author contradicted the conclusions of his own study in a general response he published.
    Now, I could do what you did and quote a wall of text from various references talking about how Séralini, long time anti-GM campaigner, co wrote the paper with a homeopath, heavily funded by anti-GM groups and organic farmers, released a book the same day and the study has been heavily discredited by academic groups from all over europe and russia (see here and here for examples).
    But really, that would be redundant. Séralini will not release the full details of his study. Therefore his study is scientifically invalid.
    Anything to back up yours?

    Maybe try reading the paragraph you edited out :confused:
    You'd really have to wonder about these 13 that they need the law changed before they are released.:eek:

    http://www.workers.org/2013/04/07/monsanto-protection-act-chemical-monopoly-writes-its-own-law/

    You have to wonder at people who so poorly selectively quote laws. I mean, I know section 735 is in horrible legalese, but that doesn't mean you can just omit the words you don't understand. Your link is lying, those 13 crops which are waiting for approval are not helped by section 735 as section 735 only applies to crops which were already approved and have that approval subsequently called into question. Again, read the actual text of the law, this time the first sentence:
    "In the event that a determination of non-regulated status made pursuant to section 411 of the Plant Protection Act H. R. 933—35 is or has been invalidated or vacated..."
    He says
    assuming with his experience

    would make them take heed. They probably just wondered for awhile where they could spend that....and then realised they couldn't.


    His experience is irrelevant without peer reviewed data.
    No Federal Funding given and special permission needed to get a trial going in US...because of this. Some choose to ignore, like the french one above (and only a few hundred others, tiny considering how long this poisonous shite is out)

    Why would a French study need to ignore an American law?
    Wayhey!:D I was wondering why you kept on about this, nothings popping on first google,:confused:, Hmm, GM gene will be found in an entire crop with cross-tamination from the wind, accuse every little Farmer of deliberately sowing rather than accidental??
    https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:rai8ntyLFGcJ:www.centerforfoodsafety.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Monsanto-v-US-Farmer-2012-Update-final.pdf+&hl=en&gl=ie&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgsnt1kKAmF775NgzczWv8JZYa8WdIiodaQXlBZce5SmhTnT6W1I5H96Jqz-gwUJMbaduTQHQ8e-hjsOTt4KF0coQEh4YOmtSvsBabi0dVhvVxQI90TAsxl_I7SMZs8RNINMbxR&sig=AHIEtbRCGdmsVU66EcQt8CBCKWIlr9sChA
    That's alot of out of court settlements^^Farmer plays ball and gets to keep farm? Need to look at this more when it's not 5am.

    I am not doing your work for you. That document from the centre for food safety (Macha already linked to the latest version btw, glad to see you are paying attention :rolleyes:) references lawsuits, but where in it does it specifically reference someone who was sued just because their crops were contaminated? Give me a name.
    Can't compare traditional crossbreeding with mixing of viral, bacterial and/or animal genes with plants--->which I'd have nothing against if it was in the bunker.

    Why not, its all chemicals? What about mixing plant genes with plants?
    Actually on that,

    Alfalfa (first planting 2011)
    Canola (approx. 90% of U.S. crop)
    Corn (approx. 88% of U.S. crop in 2011)
    Cotton (approx. 90% of U.S. crop in 2011)
    Papaya (most of Hawaiian crop; approximately 988 acres)
    Soy (approx. 94% of U.S. crop in 2011)
    Sugar Beets (approx. 95% of U.S. crop in 2010)
    Zucchini and Yellow Summer Squash (approx. 25,000 acres)

    ^^How is that anyway clever, take Soy there at 94%, something unpredictable in one year could completely wipe it out, when we had ditches and different types/species at least their was a bit of protection.

    Is all GM Soy the same species of GM soy? How many alternatives were there before GM?
    From Australian study linked in big PDF earlier in Thread, GM Yields are smaller than with conventional Seeds.

    Remind me, which study?
    The Truth Is Out on GM Foods -And Its Not Pretty

    9 Years you say...how long was the rats life equivalent again?

    The only source for that ... blog post is a link which doesn't work. Do you have a source for the increase in chronic illnesses over 9 years?
    Monsanto’s Harvest of Fear

    Pg5 of this^^, it's all worth a read though, on Human Growth Hormone in the US Milk and the measures Monsanto are going to to get labelling laws changed so people don't know which does/doesn't contain it.

    Monsanto's Government Ties

    :eek::eek: You couldn't make this up!

    Monsantos business plans are a side issue to GM foods in general, and section 735, which brought me into this thread. Can we discuss it after we finish with section 735, even just to keep the posts shorter?
    (For the record, as a vegetarian I want all food fully labelled, as I don't want to be fooled into eating animal bits or crushed bugs, gm or otherwise.
    UK is wasting some of the last effective Anti-Biotics we have treating Mastitis cuz of dirty cramped conditions.

    I assume US is using it for same, cuz of added chemical, that if sales of non-HGH Milk are anything to go by, no one bloody wants.

    Do you have a source which links MRSA in milk to Monsantos suppliment (ie, a study)?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Can I ask that you try to refrain from posting about every GM crop in existence?
    [MOD] Indeed. Squeaky the Squirrel, walls of text and images are not conducive to a flowing discussion. Please try and keep your post to the point. [/MOD]


  • Site Banned Posts: 256 ✭✭Dr Silly Bollox MD


    From a very quick skim through this Thread, here are some reports and studys that should be of interest with some of the Topics I noticed.

    GMO MYTHS AND TRUTHS REPORT

    Menu down the side, clean read.


    Roundup and birth defects: Is the public being kept in the dark?

    Contents and summary at beginning, recommendations at the end.


    Organic pollutants poison the roof of the world


    Global Burden of Disease Study 2010



    Cancer is a Preventable Disease that Requires Major Lifestyle Changes


    Iraq law Requires Seed Licenses (This is an old one, I am actually surprised links still work.)


  • Site Banned Posts: 256 ✭✭Dr Silly Bollox MD


    Alot of bleating on about Peer reviewed studies in this Thread.

    I suppose it's the best we've got (for now) but they are far from be all and end all.

    http://retractionwatch.wordpress.com/


  • Site Banned Posts: 256 ✭✭Dr Silly Bollox MD


    lately, if you've enough money, it seems like you can get one to say whatever you want.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    From a very quick skim through this Thread, here are some reports and studys that should be of interest with some of the Topics I noticed.

    GMO MYTHS AND TRUTHS REPORT

    Menu down the side, clean read.


    Roundup and birth defects: Is the public being kept in the dark?

    Contents and summary at beginning, recommendations at the end.


    Organic pollutants poison the roof of the world


    Global Burden of Disease Study 2010



    Cancer is a Preventable Disease that Requires Major Lifestyle Changes


    Iraq law Requires Seed Licenses (This is an old one, I am actually surprised links still work.)
    You think you could give us the gist of all that?
    lately, if you've enough money, it seems like you can get one to say whatever you want.
    Well, no, you can't and even if you could get a paper to say "whatever you want", it will very quickly be discredited.


  • Site Banned Posts: 256 ✭✭Dr Silly Bollox MD


    djpbarry wrote: »
    You think you could give us the gist of all that?
    Of which? All of them?:confused: The gist is in a couple of paragraphs in all of them? Anyone interested in the Thread will have a look, my quoting or dumbing down 10 sentences to 5 won't add much to it?
    djpbarry wrote: »
    Well, no, you can't and even if you could get a paper to say "whatever you want", it will very quickly be discredited.
    No they won't. It took 6 and a half years for this study (easier read) suggesting that two blood pressure drugs taken in combination were more effective than one, to be pulled due to "serious concerns" on it's findings.

    But not before their was over 100,000 people taking it.

    Funded and Conducted by the drug company.

    This guy now has 54 studies pulled, going back years and cited in others that'll probably have to be pulled. And it was a student that picked up on it, not one of the experts giving it the go ahead to be published.

    Retractions in the scientific literature: is the incidence of research fraud increasing?



    Theirs a letter to one of the news sites, (I can't bloody find it now) from a doctor that was looking for a new treatment for a patient and after reading the literature and going over it with the patient decided to try some new drug.

    After a few weeks with no improvement the doc went looking again, turned out their had been several other trials with this drug showing it didn't work conducted before the widely released one that sung it's praises.




    As long as getting these studies published is driven by money and a chair this fraud is going to increase.

    So as I say, best we have, for now.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Of which? All of them?
    Yes please. What point were you trying to make by posting those six links?
    No they won't. It took 6 and a half years for this study (easier read) suggesting that two blood pressure drugs taken in combination were more effective than one, to be pulled due to "serious concerns" on it's findings.
    The Lancet article you've linked to was published in January 2011? That's less than six and a half years ago. But anyway, I said "discredited", not "retracted" - there's a big difference. For example, you recall the MMR vaccine controversy? The original paper was published (also in The Lancet) in 1998 and almost immediately attracted criticism, but it wasn't fully retracted by The Lancet until 2010.
    As long as getting these studies published is driven by money and a chair this fraud is going to increase.
    The very fact that you're aware of the existence of fraudsters is evidence that science succeeds in weeding them out.


  • Site Banned Posts: 256 ✭✭Dr Silly Bollox MD


    djpbarry wrote: »
    What point were you trying to make by posting those six links?
    Yea, back on pg1 their was a back and forth about diseases/people are living longer and healthier-->Disease Study.

    Someone else said GM will feed the world
    “If anyone tells you that GM is going to feed the world, tell them that it is not… To feed the world takes political and financial will.”
    – Steve Smith, head of GM company Novartis Seeds UK (now Syngenta), public meeting on proposed local GM farm scale trial, Tittleshall, Norfolk, UK, 29 March 2000
    Without GM, which has only barely beaten conventional Crops in a few Markets at a higher cost, we can feed 12 Billion People up to 2,700 Calories a day. Everyone can be fat!

    http://repository.forcedmigration.org/pdf/?pid=fmo:5322

    USDA Looks to Approve Monsanto's Drought-Tolerant Corn
    While the agency's draft environmental assessment of the modified corn found the crop unlikely to pose a plant pest risk, prompting USDA to seek deregulation, the agency also noted that many corn varieties on the market match Monsanto's strain in their water use.

    "The reduced yield [trait] does not exceed the natural variation observed in regionally-adapted varieties of conventional corn," the report says, adding that "Equally comparable varieties produced through conventional breeding techniques are readily available in irrigated corn production regions."
    ^^After yearssss of work. No better than what Farmers were already using.



    Someone else said GM was the same as Conventional breeding, it's not, far from it.


    I remember reading a hypothetical a few years back, 7 years, on the GM Bt Types, the ones that produce their own pesticides (I really don't know how someone thought that was a good idea...money) that people could end up with a Bacteria in their Gut producing pesticide 24/7. Scary stuff. Released on a 90 day trial saying
    active only against particular insects and should have no effect on mammals and humans at all
    New study last year shows just one toxin in a plant, thought apparently one plant can have many toxins, causes kidney cell death invitro in 24 hours.


    And then theirs the Pesticide link detailing how the EU after getting the latest peer reviewed studies showing Roundups links to malformations in frogs/chickens, endocrine disruption, damage to DNA, reproductive and developmental toxicity, neurotoxicity, and cancer at doses much lower than in Agricultural or garden spraying immediately put back a planned review and due to the slowness in preparing the data requirements for new regulation mean that it may well not be re-assessed by up to date practices until 2030.

    50 years after it was first linked to cancer. God it's pathetic. Money.
    djpbarry wrote: »
    The Lancet article you've linked to was published in January 2011? That's less than six and a half years ago.
    Yea, here she is, I linked the wrong one. Sorry bout that.


    djpbarry wrote: »
    But anyway, I said "discredited", not "retracted" - there's a big difference. For example, you recall the MMR vaccine controversy? The original paper was published (also in The Lancet) in 1998 and almost immediately attracted criticism, but it wasn't fully retracted by The Lancet until 2010.
    yea, I see what your saying.

    That one though stood on alot of toes straight away as it contradicted a lot of previous scientists/work.

    Whats bugging me is these expert reviewers are obviously just skimming this studies as it's people well down the chain picking up on all these errors.

    Here is a journal with it's second retraction in as many years in a 38 year history without one. Sign of the times?

    Stop picking on the lancet!:p


    djpbarry wrote: »
    The very fact that you're aware of the existence of fraudsters is evidence that science succeeds in weeding them out.
    http://www.healio.com/orthopedics/business-of-orthopedics/news/print/orthopedics-today/%7B31537EBC-85E1-4392-AF5D-C2AAC169FD80%7D/Scientific-journals-retract-more-articles-expose-fraud-and-incompetence

    Thats a good little read on the subject.




    I haven't eaten a Bachelors Bean in years.:(


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 146 ✭✭Prof Nincom Poop Ph.D


    New Conventional (non GM) Wheat variety, crossing Goat Grass (Weed) and Modern Pasta Wheat has provided a plant that yields 30% more than current cultivated wheat. As well as added disease and pest resistance.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56 ✭✭Donalde


    Will that new wheat be patented?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭zenno


    A new documentary on GM...



  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 146 ✭✭Prof Nincom Poop Ph.D


    zenno wrote: »
    A new documentary on GM...
    The world's leading Scientists, Physicians, Attorneys, Politicians and Environmental Activists expose the corruption and dangers surrounding the widespread use of Genetically Modified Organisms in the new feature length documentary, "Seeds of Death: Unveiling the Lies of GMOs".





    Did you watch it yet? What did you think? Little bit long but I'll get to it at some stage.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 146 ✭✭Prof Nincom Poop Ph.D


    Donalde wrote: »
    Will that new wheat be patented?
    I don't know, I'll check some night I'm at nothing, I suppose they have no choice though, if they don't someone else will. The way things are with patents at the minute (disgrace), they better do it before it's released aswell. People are trying to patent maths, code, companies have patented entire sections of your Genes.:mad::confused::eek:

    http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/elements/2013/04/myriad-genetics-patent-genes.html
    And yet, nearly twenty per cent of the genome—more than four thousand genes—are already covered by at least one U.S. patent. These include genes for Alzheimer’s disease, colon cancer, asthma, and two in particular—BRCA1 and BRCA2—that are highly associated with breast cancer. Myriad Genetics, a company that specializes in molecular diagnostics, holds the rights to those two genes. Anyone conducting an experiment on them without a license can be sued for infringement of patent rights. This means that Myriad can decide what research is carried out on those genes, who can do that research, and how much any resulting therapy or diagnostic test will cost. The same holds true for other genes and for any pharmaceutical company, scientist, or university that holds patents similar to those held by Myriad.
    Should never have been allowed as far as I'm concerned. It says in the Article in was due back in Court on ANOTHER appeal April 15 but that's been put back till the summer. Can't find link that says that at the min...but it was anyway.



    2012 in Review: Patents Hinder Innovation, But Hope for Reform Exists


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    zenno wrote: »
    A new documentary on GM...
    [MOD] What about it? Is it good/bad/indifferent? If so, why? What are the fundamental arguments put forward and do you agree with them? If so/not, why?

    As per the charter, please do not simply post a link to a video without providing some kind of explanation of the content.[/MOD]


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭zenno


    djpbarry wrote: »
    [MOD] What about it? Is it good/bad/indifferent? If so, why? What are the fundamental arguments put forward and do you agree with them? If so/not, why?

    As per the charter, please do not simply post a link to a video without providing some kind of explanation of the content.[/MOD]

    I upped the link so others can decide and make their own opinions on the video, I am not going to plaster my opinion here on it.

    I do find it interesting that monsanto were the sellers of agent orange and many other nasty chemicals and it's quite amazing that monsanto are the pushers of GM, as they say it's good for you. Well i don't trust them, others here can make their own minds up on the video and debate it.

    If you do not like the video posted here then take it down, don't kill the messenger.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Will we all just use this thread as a repository/dump for videos that make arguments on our behalf, or should we maybe engage with each other instead?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭zenno


    Dave! wrote: »
    Will we all just use this thread as a repository/dump for videos that make arguments on our behalf, or should we maybe engage with each other instead?

    Sorry, but i did leave my comment above, i left many as i created the thread, i wanted for people to watch the video and make their own mind up on it.

    I was asked to explain the video...whats the point in me explaining the whole video and ruin it by doing so, can people not watch it if they like and come to their own decision on whether it is rubbish or not ? instead of me telling people.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    [mod]Hi folks, if you want to discuss moderation, please take it up with djpbarry or myself by PM, not in-thread.

    Also, as Dave! rightly says, let's try to have a respectful, evidence-based discussion. So please be open minded when presenting your case.[/mod]


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,783 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    zenno wrote: »
    I do find it interesting that monsanto were the sellers of agent orange and many other nasty chemicals and it's quite amazing that monsanto are the pushers of GM, as they say it's good for you.

    What does agent orange and GM foods have to do with each other?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭zenno


    What does agent orange and GM foods have to do with each other?

    Agent Orange is the combination of the code names for Herbicide Orange (HO) and Agent LNX, one of the herbicides and defoliants used by the U.S. military as part of its chemical warfare program, Operation Ranch Hand, during the Vietnam War from 1961 to 1971. Vietnam estimates 400,000 people were killed or maimed, and 500,000 children born with birth defects as a result of its use. The Red Cross of Vietnam estimates that up to 1 million people are disabled or have health problems due to Agent Orange.

    A 50:50 mixture of 2,4,5-T and 2,4-D, it was manufactured for the U.S. Department of Defense primarily by Monsanto Corporation and Dow Chemical.

    Does that answer the question you provided. How can you trust Monsanto.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,783 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    zenno wrote: »
    Agent Orange is the combination of the code names for Herbicide Orange (HO) and Agent LNX, one of the herbicides and defoliants used by the U.S. military as part of its chemical warfare program, Operation Ranch Hand, during the Vietnam War from 1961 to 1971. Vietnam estimates 400,000 people were killed or maimed, and 500,000 children born with birth defects as a result of its use. The Red Cross of Vietnam estimates that up to 1 million people are disabled or have health problems due to Agent Orange.

    A 50:50 mixture of 2,4,5-T and 2,4-D, it was manufactured for the U.S. Department of Defense primarily by Monsanto Corporation and Dow Chemical.

    Does that answer the question you provided. How can you trust Monsanto.

    I know what agent orange is, I was asking what that has to do with GM foods. Besides the fact that Monsanto aren't actually the only producer of GM foods, the fact that they once produced chemical weapons doesn't mean they what they produce now is equivalent to chemical weapons. Many modern car companies used to make fighter planes and rockets during the various wars of the last century (Rolls Royce, BMW etc.). Should we not trust them for the same reasons?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Whatever about Monsanto destroying Ireland's farmers, they are certainly doing a number on US wheat farmers after the discovery of their GM wheat growing wild in Oregon http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/03/us-wheat-korea-usa-idUSBRE95201R20130603 The wild GM wheat only came to light when a farmer tried to kill it off with Roundup and it didn't die. Truly the stuff of nightmares but probably too negative for this forum.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    The wild GM wheat only came to light when a farmer tried to kill it off with Roundup and it didn't die. Truly the stuff of nightmares...
    It truly isn't - such hyperbole isn't really conducive to meaningful discussion.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,949 ✭✭✭A Primal Nut


    I am generally positive about GM, but I don't agree with Monsanto's business practices. Suing farmers who accidentally got GM on their farm is unacceptable. It should be Monsanto and their customers who have to try to ensure that non-consumers crops are not contaminated. If the government bring in legislation to protect farmers from litigation, I would like to see GM experimentation here.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    I am generally positive about GM, but I don't agree with Monsanto's business practices. Suing farmers who accidentally got GM on their farm is unacceptable. It should be Monsanto and their customers who have to try to ensure that non-consumers crops are not contaminated. If the government bring in legislation to protect farmers from litigation, I would like to see GM experimentation here.

    Why? Is it so that Monsanto can feed the world's starving? :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Why? Is it so that Monsanto can feed the world's starving?
    No, it's because genetic engineering, in general, is a technology that has already been of tremendous benefit to humanity, yet still has huge untapped potential.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26 le sigh


    djpbarry wrote: »
    No, it's because genetic engineering, in general, is a technology that has already been of tremendous benefit to humanity, yet still has huge untapped potential.
    Benefits of Genetic Engineering

    ^For anyone wondering.



    http://action.responsibletechnology.org/p/salsa/web/common/public/content?content_item_KEY=11129
    It was “supposed” to be harmless to humans and animals—the perfect weed killer. Now a groundbreaking article just published in the journal Entropy points to Monsanto’s Roundup herbicide, and more specifically its active ingredient glyphosate, as devastating—possibly “the most important factor in the development of multiple chronic diseases and conditions that have become prevalent in Westernized societies.”

    is now linked to “autism … gastrointestinal issues such as inflammatory bowel disease, chronic diarrhea, colitis and Crohn’s disease, obesity, cardiovascular disease, depression, cancer, cachexia, Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, multiple sclerosis, and ALS, among others.”
    You really have to wonder how they keep managing to come out with some of the most deadly "products" on the planet and continually get away with exposing people to them.

    Edit:But this engineering is just weirding me out.

    Put a human stem cell (Liver, Pancreas whatever) into an animal embryo, a pig cuz we are similar, put this embryo into a female pigs womb and let it develop and be born and grow with the human organs until it's fit to be slaughtered and organs harvested.

    And the rest of the pig will end up in Burgers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Ffs, I had to go back to try and find where I was implying all this.

    Toxic pesticides from GM food crops found in unborn babies

    :rolleyes: I'm shocked.
    The pesticides were used on the GM crops. Big deal. Pesticides are also used on non-GM crops. This is just scaremongering.
    If they genetically introduced more pest resistance into the crop, in addition to the roundup weedkiller resistance (which is the basis for Monsanto's profits) then the GM crop would have less pesticide residue than the non GM one.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    djpbarry wrote: »
    The paper on which that article is supposedly based does not even mention the word “obesity”:
    http://www.biolsci.org/v05p0706.pdf
    Probably worth mentioning that the above paper has just been retracted by the publisher:

    http://www.nature.com/news/study-linking-gm-maize-to-rat-tumours-is-retracted-1.14268


  • Registered Users Posts: 521 ✭✭✭Voodoo_rasher


    A Primal Nut: "It should be Monsanto and their customers who have to try to ensure that non-consumers crops are not contaminated. If the government bring in legislation to protect farmers from litigation.."

    Monsanto cannot be compelled to do anything; they are now above the law

    in the U.S. A law was passed last April dubbed the 'Monsanto Protection Act'? Look it up folks its pretty recent.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Ever hear of the Monsanto Protection Act?
    Nope.
    Look it up folks its pretty recent. This is the level of power they can wield now.

    See here.

    http://rt.com/news/monsanto-march-berlin-protest-115/
    Unless I am very much mistaken, that article does not mention any "Monsanto Protection Act"?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Nope.
    Unless I am very much mistaken, that article does not mention any "Monsanto Protection Act"?
    In all but name perhaps?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,996 ✭✭✭two wheels good


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Nope.
    Unless I am very much mistaken, that article does not mention any "Monsanto Protection Act"?

    Oh, that's just the unofficial moniker to distinguish it from all the other examples of successful lobbying by GM corps.

    AFAIR I read that this provision was inserted anonymously, and late in the debate, into the Bill. Yes, there is apparently a provision for public representatives to anonymously add clauses to a bill.

    One interpretation of the the provision is it "effectively bars federal courts from being able to halt the sale or planting of controversial genetically modified or genetically engineered seeds, no matter what health issues may arise concerning GMOs in the future"


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,783 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    That bill was already debunked in this thread.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 521 ✭✭✭Voodoo_rasher




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Probably worth mentioning that the above paper has just been retracted by the publisher:

    http://www.nature.com/news/study-linking-gm-maize-to-rat-tumours-is-retracted-1.14268
    An update on this if anyone's interested.

    That paper has been republished, bizarrely, without any further peer-review:
    A controversial paper linking genetically modified maize to the development of tumours and other severe disease in rats, which was published in 2012 and retracted in 2013, has now been published again, by a different journal.

    ...

    The journal that originally published the paper, Food and Chemical Toxicology (FCT), retracted it in a storm of criticism in November 2013 after Séralini’s team refused to withdraw it (see ‘Study linking GM maize to rat tumours is retracted’). A post-publication review of the paper found that “the data were inconclusive, and therefore the conclusions described in the article were unreliable.” However FCT found “no evidence of fraud or intentional misrepresentation of the data”, according to the journal's publisher, Elsevier in Amsterdam.
    http://www.nature.com/news/paper-claiming-gm-link-with-tumours-republished-1.15463

    I could be wrong, but in terms of scientific publishing, I think this may be unprecedented. I've never heard of a retracted paper being republished elsewhere without any further review.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,376 ✭✭✭The_Captain


    I am generally positive about GM, but I don't agree with Monsanto's business practices. Suing farmers who accidentally got GM on their farm is unacceptable. It should be Monsanto and their customers who have to try to ensure that non-consumers crops are not contaminated. If the government bring in legislation to protect farmers from litigation, I would like to see GM experimentation here.

    I don't like Monsanto, but to be fair to them, the farmers who say they "accidentally got them on their farm" are normally sued because it's clear that they've also accidentally ploughed the land, accidentally planted the seeds and accidentally fertilised them for months before being caught


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    I don't like Monsanto, but to be fair to them, the farmers who say they "accidentally got them on their farm" are normally sued because it's clear that they've also accidentally ploughed the land, accidentally planted the seeds and accidentally fertilised them for months before being caught

    I think the point is that the seeds get caught up in their seeds. GM seeds don't exactly come visibly tagged.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,376 ✭✭✭The_Captain


    Macha wrote: »
    I think the point is that the seeds get caught up in their seeds. GM seeds don't exactly come visibly tagged.


    You buy the seeds from Monsanto and sign an agreement not to save seeds from grown crops. Where are the seeds going to get caught up with other seeds?


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    You buy the seeds from Monsanto and sign an agreement not to save seeds from grown crops. Where are the seeds going to get caught up with other seeds?

    I'm talking about accidental cross-pollination cases, not the farmers who argued about buying it from third parties. Many of the farmers involved are organic farmers who stand to lose their organic status due to cross-pollination with GM. The idea that they're somehow sneakily doing it on purpose makes no sense to me.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    From this post
    In 1997, Percy Schmeiser found Monsanto's genetically modified “Roundup Ready Canola” plants growing near his farm. He testified that he sprayed his nearby field and found that much of the crop survived, meaning it was also Roundup Ready.[2] He testified that he then harvested that crop, saved it separately from his other harvest, and intentionally planted it in 1998.[2] Monsanto approached him to pay a license fee for using Monsanto's patented technology without a license. Schmeiser refused, claiming that the actual seed was his because it was grown on his land, and so Monsanto sued Schmeiser for patent infringement.

    Have we any actual examples of "innocent" farmers being sued for "accidentally" growing Monsanto crops?

    BTW does anyone know how the Monsanto trials for blight resistant spuds went? They had them planted in Carlow behind a high fence, it was last year or the year before I think.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    recedite wrote: »
    From this post

    Have we any actual examples of "innocent" farmers being sued for "accidentally" growing Monsanto crops?

    BTW does anyone know how the Monsanto trials for blight resistant spuds went? They had them planted in Carlow behind a high fence, it was last year or the year before I think.
    Yes. You are giving examples and referring to the type that were testing the law or, like I said, thought buying it from 3rd party was different. I am talking about different cases.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Macha wrote: »
    Yes. ... I am talking about different cases.
    Go on.....


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Re the GM potato trials, it seems they are still ongoing, but appear to be successful.
    In Irish climatic conditions unless conventional farmers use chemical fungicides 100% crop loss is a real possibility, 15- 20 sprays are required to protect each potato crop!...Arising from the preliminary study completed in 2012, we now know that the GM potato variety we are researching has the potential to resist Irish blight strains (see below) but much more work is required and this will commence in 2013.
    from teagasc

    Also I was mistaken in that Monsanto are not involved in this, although they did trial GM beet there some years ago. It is this publicly funded Dutch research facility.That is logical enough, because blight resistant potatoes would not earn money for the chemicals industry, quite the opposite.


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