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"Wind and wave energies are not renewable after all"

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    #92
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,827 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Chloe Pink wrote: »
    Which valleys will be flooded in Ireland to provide the hydro and / or which mountains will be hollowed out?
    Not a problem, if wind power turns out to be a flash in the pan we can make loads of money using the hollowed out mountains to store the UK's nuclear waste , or to call it by it's common name ,coal ash.


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    #93
    Chloe Pink
    Registered Users Posts: 804 ✭✭✭Chloe Pink


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    wind moves from high pressure areas to low pressure areas
    but not in straight lines, it moves in a sprial / cyclonic way
    eye of the storm will have no wind and wind strengths will vary across the the weather front.
    This doesn't negate the fact that it is likely that when Ireland has wind and has electricity to export, so will other EU countries.
    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    when you have high winds you are already at max capacity anyway , but we don't have high winds all the time - you are taking the exception and calling it the rule.
    Surely it is during periods of high winds (not so high that the wind generators shut down mind) that Ireland will be in a position to export electricity?
    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    and they have pumped storage in wales, they have gas turbines in the UK ,
    The point being?
    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    and I'll repeat that a grid means everyone needs less installed capacity
    Please would you explain this point further.


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    #94
    Chloe Pink
    Registered Users Posts: 804 ✭✭✭Chloe Pink


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    Not a problem, if wind power turns out to be a flash in the pan we can make loads of money using the hollowed out mountains to store the UK's nuclear waste , or to call it by it's common name ,coal ash.

    Ah you've focussed on hydro in mountains here in line with your post (no.8) in the hydro thread re hydro in valleys, "there isn't a lot for commercial development"
    (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056252172

    Nuclear waste doesn't need much space and surely it is better left in situ than transported?
    Would Ireland want to house nuclear waste in redundant hollowed out mountains?


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    #95
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    Chloe Pink wrote: »
    This doesn't negate the fact that it is likely that when Ireland has wind and has electricity to export, so will other EU countries.
    That doesn't matter though, this is Parkinson's Law in action.

    "The demand upon a resource tends to expand to match the supply of the resource."

    I would imagine this holds especially true for a resource as fundamental as energy.


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    #96
    Chloe Pink
    Registered Users Posts: 804 ✭✭✭Chloe Pink


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    That doesn't matter though, this is Parkinson's Law in action.

    "The demand upon a resource tends to expand to match the supply of the resource."

    I would imagine this holds especially true for a resource as fundamental as energy.

    So if the wind blows at night, will everyone wake up, switch on the lights and make a cuppa?


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    #97
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    Chloe Pink wrote: »
    So if the wind blows at night, will everyone wake up, switch on the lights and make a cuppa?
    The heaviest users of electricity are industrial. Also when we're on short run or full electric cars, which should be in the near future, there will be a recharge demand at all hours, but mostly at night.


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    #98
    Chloe Pink
    Registered Users Posts: 804 ✭✭✭Chloe Pink


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    The heaviest users of electricity are industrial. Also when we're on short run or full electric cars, which should be in the near future, there will be a recharge demand at all hours, but mostly at night.

    And if the wind starts blowing well (for electricity generation) during the day will everyone suddenly plug in their cars?


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    #99
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    Chloe Pink wrote: »
    And if the wind starts blowing well (for electricity generation) during the day will everyone suddenly plug in their cars?
    So you're saying nobody uses electricity during the day now? :D

    As it turns out, it is quite conceivable to set up trickle charging at opportune times, even very doable to use the enormous number of vehicles as grid-based storage if you wanted to even out spikes.


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    #100
    Chloe Pink
    Registered Users Posts: 804 ✭✭✭Chloe Pink


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    So you're saying nobody uses electricity during the day now? :D
    No but if a large quantity of wind suddenly comes onto the grid and the other generators running at the time, cannot be ramped down sufficiently quickly, then the wind is curtailed or exported as part of the grid balancing process - hence the discussion about exports.
    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    As it turns out, it is quite conceivable to set up trickle charging at opportune times, even very doable to use the enormous number of vehicles as grid-based storage if you wanted to even out spikes.
    Well you can't trickle charge when your driving around.

    I'm not saying such things can't play a part but cost and practicalities have to be considered and even the report you linked to on the other thread refers to limiting installed wind capacity.


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    #101
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    Chloe Pink wrote: »
    No but if a large quantity of wind suddenly comes onto the grid and the other generators running at the time, cannot be ramped down sufficiently quickly, then the wind is curtailed or exported as part of the grid balancing process - hence the discussion about exports.
    Hence the explanation of Parkinson's Law.
    Chloe Pink wrote: »
    Well you can't trickle charge when your driving around.
    As a percentage of the day, how many hours would you say most people spend driving around? Five percent?
    Chloe Pink wrote: »
    I'm not saying such things can't play a part but cost and practicalities have to be considered and even the report you linked to on the other thread refers to limiting installed wind capacity.
    You do need to think about lots of different options however, the patterns of energy production and usage are moving rapidly and what seems like a curiosity one day may become your national energy plan the next. ;)


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    #102
    Chloe Pink
    Registered Users Posts: 804 ✭✭✭Chloe Pink


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    Hence the explanation of Parkinson's Law.
    Except that other European countries are likely to be looking to curtail wind or export electricity at the same time - so we're back where we started.


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    #103
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    Chloe Pink wrote: »
    Except tht other European countries are likely to be looking to curtail wind or export electricity at the same time - so we're back where we started.
    Did you understand the explanation for Parkinson's Law as given?


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    #104
    Chloe Pink
    Registered Users Posts: 804 ✭✭✭Chloe Pink


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    Did you understand the explanation for Parkinson's Law as given?

    Yes thank you, I believe so in the context in which it was used.


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    #105
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    Chloe Pink wrote: »
    Yes thank you, I believe so in the context in which it was used.
    So how do you reckon we're back where we started.


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    #106
    Chloe Pink
    Registered Users Posts: 804 ✭✭✭Chloe Pink


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    So how do you reckon we're back where we started.

    Please see post 96


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    #107
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    Chloe Pink wrote: »
    Please see post 96
    Why, your point has already been obliterated. Regardless, I've better things to do on a Sunday than sit around trying to convince the unconviceable, so once again good luck with that.


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    #108
    dowtcha
    Registered Users Posts: 104 ✭✭dowtcha


    Having read through a few pages of previous posts, I'm not sure there is any compelling argument to back up the thread title, did I miss a killer post? Maybe the cost of the installation of renewable energy is expensive, but then isn't any technology at the initial stages of development. Generally speaking technologies tend to become cheaper as their lifecycle progresses
    As an Irish consumer of energy why should we be concerned about the cost of renewable energy? the eneormous cost of the PSO levy, the mechanism where renewable energy is subsidised to encourage its installation/production - I think not - only 27% of the PSO is paid to renewable energy producers, most of it goes to peat stations, a separate discussion, and as an example the PSO makes up less than 5% of most industrial users electricity cost, meaning the renewable energy portion costs under 1.5%. Eirgrid report concludes wind power is acting to reduce power supply costs
    A bit of discussion about what we're going to do with all this renewable energy, while it may be interesting to consider this issue, it most definitely is a problem we may have to face in the future, certainly we are a long way away from it presently
    The large cost of getting renewable energy onto the grid has been raised as a negative- the fact is our grid needs upgrading and my understanding is that all new renewable energy applicants pay the full cost of grid connection, as determined by the regulator, so again as an Irish energy consumer why does the expense of grid connection concern me? Yes grid connection costs are expensive, but not so prohibitive vs. the returns offered from power sales to ward developers off
    What's the alternative? put all our bets on cheap gas from all these undiscovered Irish offshore sources, or rely on Gazprom, hmmm it doesn't inspire confidence:confused:
    In short we may look back at renewables in years to come and conclude the benefit vs cost were ill advised, but in my humpble opinion a bad plan is better than none
    And as all developers are very fond of pointing out, Ireland vs other EU countries can hardly be accused of running away with ourselves, and with the state of our finances, we are hardly likely to


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    #109
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Chloe Pink wrote: »
    This doesn't negate the fact that it is likely that when Ireland has wind and has electricity to export, so will other EU countries.
    So wind generation potential is uniform across Europe?


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    #110
    Chloe Pink
    Registered Users Posts: 804 ✭✭✭Chloe Pink


    djpbarry wrote: »
    So wind generation potential is uniform across Europe?

    No, 'Uniform' is not an adjective I would use in this context.


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    #111
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Chloe Pink wrote: »
    No, 'Uniform' is not an adjective I would use in this context.
    Kindly elaborate.


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    #112
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,827 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Chloe Pink wrote: »
    Please see post 96
    every time I see you do this instead of providing a link I'm so tempted to delete an older post of mine :p

    If you continue to claim that the having similar conditions of wind across Europe is the norm please post links. Otherwise the rest of us will keep believing in the weather patterns given by the met office and satellites which show us circles of clouds , where there is no wind in the centre and winds are at the edges.

    Also your denial of knowledge the usage of interconnectors can only mean you haven't been reading other peoples posts, it comes up very often in any discussion of renewable / nuclear power.

    I don't think I can dumb it down more than this -
    When everyone puts the kettle on after Eastenders / Corrie the peak demand could be met by building a gas turbine power station that is only used for 10 minutes on weekday nights in winter OR if you had some really, really big Jump Leads you could just get a boost from France.

    The power station would remain idle for most of the year and even when it was being used it would reamin idle for most of the day. The jump leads are in use every day and it means France and UK each save the cost of building and runing a backup power station.

    (You could also use pumped storage in Wales to store some leccy , which you could even sell back to France)

    There are transmission losses in power lines , I squared R. If you double the current you get four times the losses. If you only use one third of the current you only get one ninth of the losses. This means off peak it's the losses in transmission lines aren't as bad as the nay sayers would like you to believe. While at peak the losses are far worse it's still better than building another local power station. With renewables it's not really costing that much to warm up the power cables anyway so it's not really that big an issue.

    There have been plans proposed to transmit solar electricity from Africa to Europe. It would result in 0.3% of the Sahara / middle east deserts being darker than normal. One trick is to use mirrors to heat water to make steam , you can then run the turbines 24 hours a day. Another would be to pump hydrogen back.


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    #113
    Chloe Pink
    Registered Users Posts: 804 ✭✭✭Chloe Pink


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    ... similar conditions of wind across Europe

    Please google 'low pressure across Europe'

    Here's just one example; there are many more
    http://www.reportingclimatescience.com/news-stories/article/global-warming-shares-blame-for-europes-cold-weather-says-climate-scientist.html“the current heavy snow and sub-zero temperatures across Europe”
    “Cold weather in Europe is often associated with a weather system known as the North Atlantic Oscillation”


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    #114
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Chloe Pink wrote: »
    Yes thank you, I believe so in the context in which it was used.
    Chloe Pink wrote: »
    Please see post 96
    Chloe Pink wrote: »
    No, 'Uniform' is not an adjective I would use in this context.
    Chloe Pink wrote: »
    Please google 'low pressure across Europe'
    Your last four posts on this thread have added nothing to the discussion. If you have nothing to contribute, then don't post.


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    #115
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,827 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Chloe Pink wrote: »
    Please google 'low pressure across Europe'

    Here's just one example; there are many more
    http://www.reportingclimatescience.com/news-stories/article/global-warming-shares-blame-for-europes-cold-weather-says-climate-scientist.html current heavy snow and sub-zero temperatures across Europe”
    “Cold weather in Europe is often associated with a weather system known as the North Atlantic Oscillation”
    I had to fix your broken link.
    That article says that Cold weather in Europe is often associated with a weather system known as the North Atlantic Oscillation (NAO) but there is also a significant impact from current low levels of sea ice in the Barents-Kara Sea, according to a leading climate scientist.

    If you look up the NAO https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/North_Atlantic_oscillation
    Especially during the months of November to April, the NAO is responsible for much of the variability of weather in the North Atlantic region, affecting wind speed and wind direction changes, changes in temperature and moisture distribution and the intensity, number and track of storms.
    You were asked to post a link to support your claim that having similar wind conditions across europe was a very common occurance

    instead you posted something generic which refers to the mechanism that causes variability in wind across Europe
    The title of the thread is Science (google that word !)
    it means if you make a statement that contradicts the usual observations you must have evidence to back it up


    (Hint if you get in to the habbit of posting irrelevant links or links that aren't what you claim they are then people will rightly consider you a timewaster - even if this weren't boards and you had a right to free speach , no one has to listen to you)


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM

    An argument isn't contradiction.


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    #116
    Chloe Pink
    Registered Users Posts: 804 ✭✭✭Chloe Pink


    Chloe Pink wrote: »
    This doesn't negate the fact that it is likely that when Ireland has wind and has electricity to export, so will other EU countries.
    And the converse

    http://www.ref.org.uk/publications/227-new-study-confirms-ref-intermittency-studies

    "In subsequent work for REF, published in July 2010, Mr Bach updated and extended his work in a book entitled, The Variability of Wind Power: Collected Papers 2009-2010. This work revealed the degree to which wind variability might be synchronized across Europe, with the implication for spot prices and the value of trans-continental interconnections. As Mr Bach wrote: “The combination of wind power in Denmark, Germany, and Ireland produces a statistical smoothing effect […] however, the effect is not strong, and even assuming market interconnections which are perfect in a physical and regulatory sense there would still be extreme peaks and troughs in wind output” (p. 47)."


    "Pöyry’s study goes some way to addressing the questions raised by Oswald and Bach’s work, and reiterates many of the conclusions previously drawn by REF in its research work on intermittent renewables, namely that:

    (i) A geographical spread of wind (and, Pöyry argue, solar) supported by a supergrid would not resolve the problems of intermittency because similar weather patterns can extend across much of the continent of Europe and the UK and Ireland."


    Quote from the summary of the Pöyry report which can be down loaded from here: http://www.poyry.com/media/media_2.h...301471113.html

    "This heavy reinforcement of interconnection doesn’t appear to offset the need for very much backup plant, however. This surprising observation comes from the fact that weather systems – in particular high pressure ‘cold and calm’ periods in winter – can extend for 1000 miles, so that periods of low wind generation are often correlated across Europe."


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    #117
    Chloe Pink
    Registered Users Posts: 804 ✭✭✭Chloe Pink


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    That doesn't matter though, this is Parkinson's Law in action.

    "The demand upon a resource tends to expand to match the supply of the resource."

    I would imagine this holds especially true for a resource as fundamental as energy.

    Quotes from the summary of the Pöyry report which can be down loaded from here: http://www.poyry.com/media/media_2.html?Id=1301471113.html

    Re power markets:
    "The answer has turned out to be much more complicated than a simple ‘Can the market deal with this?’ or indeed ‘Can we square the circle by building enough interconnection or changing demand pattern to match the intermittent generation’."

    "Unlike previous work that has concluded that theoretically demand can meet supply – usually by massive, and possibly unrealistic increases in interconnection and electrification – Pöyry can now draw on a deep understanding of the economic character of such markets, and take realistic views on the outlook for current and future investments and developments."


    And from a report that Amhran Nua pointed to in his thread on Nuclear power; it can be downloaded from here: http://www.esri.ie/publications/latest_publications/view/index.xml?id=3252
    Page 17:

    "Policy on Renewables and Energy Efficiency
    The EU has a range of policies requiring both increased energy efficiency and increased deployment of renewable electricity. The logic behind these policies is not fully clear. While they could serve to reduce emissions of greenhouse gases and to enhance security of energy supply there is no guarantee that this will be the result. In addition, the environmental and security objectives could almost certainly be met at lower cost by having better targeted policies specifically designed to meet the environmental and security goals (Tol, 2011)."


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    #118
    easychair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 905 ✭✭✭easychair


    Chloe Pink wrote: »
    "Policy on Renewables and Energy Efficiency
    The EU has a range of policies requiring both increased energy efficiency and increased deployment of renewable electricity. The logic behind these policies is not fully clear. While they could serve to reduce emissions of greenhouse gases and to enhance security of energy supply there is no guarantee that this will be the result. In addition, the environmental and security objectives could almost certainly be met at lower cost by having better targeted policies specifically designed to meet the environmental and security goals (Tol, 2011)."

    This is the same EU whose idea on how to conserve fish is to throw back into the sea millions of tons of perfectly good dead fish?


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    #119
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Chloe Pink wrote: »
    "This heavy reinforcement of interconnection doesn’t appear to offset the need for very much backup plant, however. This surprising observation comes from the fact that weather systems – in particular high pressure ‘cold and calm’ periods in winter – can extend for 1000 miles, so that periods of low wind generation are often correlated across Europe."
    But that's not what you are saying?

    This is the last time you'll be asked to stop copying & pasting walls of text without making clear what it is you're arguing.


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    #120
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    easychair wrote: »
    This is the same EU whose idea on how to conserve fish is to throw back into the sea millions of tons of perfectly good dead fish?
    Stay on topic please.


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    #121
    Chloe Pink
    Registered Users Posts: 804 ✭✭✭Chloe Pink


    My apologies, I will try to clarify my argument as follows:

    In response to using inter-connectors to “sell our excess wind to the UK, and buy from them when the wind isn't blowing”(post 89)
    I wrote (post 90)
    “Generally areas of high and low pressure cover most of Europe i.e. winds are high over most European countries at the same time. This means that when the winds are good for electricity generation with wind turbines in Ireland, they're probably good in the UK too (and the rest of Europe) meaning that everyone will be trying to export electricity to balance their grids.”

    In post 96 Captn.Mid. asked for links to support my posts on the matter of weather conditions across Europe.

    I provided two links and three quotations in post 116. They are more eloquent than my posts. They look at the weather patterns across Europe and how these limit the effect of interconnectors in Europe in mitigating against the intermittancy of wind generated electricity.

    This is the point I wished to make, as in my example scenario in post 90.
    I hope this is helpful.


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