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Tribunal Determination Order Enforcement/Avoidance

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  • 23-04-2019 4:12pm
    #1
    LyleLanley
    Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭


    Hiya, I'm sorry if this is repetitive but I couldn't find any thread specifically talking about this kind of thing from recent years in the search. Knowledge or any experience of this kinda scenario would be greatly appreciated:

    I'm a tenant, and a week ago I received a Determination Order from the Tribunal I sat back in December, where I won the decision and with it a settlement. The landlord has until July to pay the settlement, and I'm now waiting the 21 days for them to appeal to the High Court. I'm hoping they won't do that as someone in Threshold told me those appeals cost tens of thousands, but I'm curious about the prospect of what comes after that - I'm assuming I have to try and get in touch with my old landlord directy to try and arrange payment, but I think that'll be a fruitless endeavour.

    As I said, he's got till July to pay so I'm wondering if I'll be waiting till then or can I, in the knowledge he won't pay, enact proceedings in the District Court before the date in July? I'm worried the landlord will try and get his assets into another's name in the intervening months between now and July and claim he can't pay what he owes me.

    I was also wondering if anyone knew the details of financing that District Court trip? I know the RTB enforce some cases, but I reckon I'll have to sort it myself. If I have to go paying for solicitors and stuff, and I go to court and win, is the landlord forced to cover my legal fees as well as paying me the money owed?

    I've been at this now for over a year, and after losing my Arbitration but finally succeeding in having my case heard properly in the Tribunal, I really just want to be shut of this whole chunk of my life as quickly as possible. Any advice on how to do that, or anyone with experience of landlords finding ways to avoid paying the settlement would be really, really appreciated.

    Cheers!


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    #2
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Mod Note

    OP, you need to seek proper, qualified legal advice.

    Everyone else; thread remains open for general discussion only. Before posting please keep in mind there is to be no legal advice given.

    Thanks


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    #3
    Fol20
    Registered Users Posts: 3,624 ✭✭✭Fol20


    Have you tried talking FLAC to see what they can do for you in regards your case.

    If your case is going to high court, i would recommend getting proper legal advice instead of free "advice" from random people with no qualifications. You get what you paid for.


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    #4
    LyleLanley
    Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭LyleLanley


    Graham wrote: »
    Mod Note

    OP, you need to seek proper, qualified legal advice.

    Everyone else; thread remains open for general discussion only. Before posting please keep in mind there is to be no legal advice given.

    Thanks
    Fol20 wrote: »
    Have you tried talking FLAC to see what they can do for you in regards your case.

    If your case is going to high court, i would recommend getting proper legal advice instead of free "advice" from random people with no qualifications. You get what you paid for.

    I'm sorry, I wasn't clear enough there. I'm not seeking legal advice on how to proceed at all, I know I'll need a lawyer if I get a High Court summons cos I'd be like a lost lamb trying to deal with that on my own.

    I'm more looking for any experiences or knowledge of the process of the enforcement of the RTBs Determination Order through the District Court system and the possible ways the landlord can avoiding paying me what I'm owed through bankruptcy/removal of assets from his name, etc

    Sorry for the confusion.


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    #5
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,104 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Op, if your LL has until July to pay, on what grounds do you think you can take a District Court case now in case he doesn’t pay? He has another 3 months.

    How much money are we talking about here in the award? If he one the first round, lost the second round, if it was a sizeable award then there is a very good chance he will appeal the decision, particularly if he feels he was in the right or the Tribunal errored in their adjudication.


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    #6
    LyleLanley
    Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭LyleLanley


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Op, if your LL has until July to pay, on what grounds do you think you can take a District Court case now in case he doesn’t pay? He has another 3 months.

    I don't know, that's why I was asking. I was unsure if I contact him about the payment after the appeal window closes and he refuses to pay, which is what I expect, can I then expedite the court proceedings on those grounds that he's not willing to pay, or do I still have to wait till July.

    I assume I have to wait, I'm just checking to see if anyone had any experience to the contrary. I'm just trying to put together a bigger picture of variables.
    Dav010 wrote: »
    How much money are we talking about here in the award? If he one the first round, lost the second round, if it was a sizeable award then there is a very good chance he will appeal the decision, particularly if he feels he was in the right or the Tribunal errored in their adjudication.

    I'm not assuming he won't appeal. I originally assumed he definitely would until I was told it doesn't often happen because it can cost tens of thousands to appeal to the High Court. That could also be bunkum.

    I'd be here all day summarising the case, but everyone from the RTB and Threshold was shocked I lost in the original Arbitration and put it down to a biased Adjudicator being assigned to the case and the amount assigned by the three members of the Tribunal is substantial (€12,500) because the landlord broke a litany of laws from all across the Act.

    Still, whether I win or lose a High Court appeal, I'm just trying to plan for a variety of eventualities and that includes trying to ascertain a clearer picture of the process of enforcement through the District Court system.


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    #7
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,774 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    Are you still 'in possession' as they say? (i.e., are you still living there?)


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    #8
    LyleLanley
    Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭LyleLanley


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    Are you still 'in possession' as they say? (i.e., are you still living there?)

    Nah, shifted city after it. I was illegally evicted, it was part of the case.


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    #9
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,104 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    LyleLanley wrote: »
    Nah, shifted city after it. I was illegally evicted, it was part of the case.

    Has he the means to pay?


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    #10
    LyleLanley
    Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭LyleLanley


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Has he the means to pay?

    I don't know if he'd have it to just give over in a lump. I'd be grand with some sort of payment plan where he gives me a grand a month for a year. He's an active landlord of 4 properties that I'm aware of.


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    #11
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,774 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    It seems extremely unlikely that you can enact proceedings before July.

    It is worth reading

    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/personal_finance/debt/court_procedures.html

    and

    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/personal_finance/debt/enforcement_of_judgments.html

    as some sort of starting point. Maybe the RTB will give you a pointer on this. I don't know.


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    #12
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    There have been very few appeals to the High Court on a point of law from the Tribunal and the vast majority have come from tenants.
    Until the deadline passes for payment nothing can be done. It is most likely the RTB will take a case in the District Court for non payment if you inform them you haven't been pai. This will only happen after the July deadline for payment. The RTBN will get judgement plus costs (which won't cover all of the costs) in tyhe District Court. If there is still no payment, other enforcement mechanisms will have to be used.


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    #13
    LyleLanley
    Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭LyleLanley


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    There have been very few appeals to the High Court on a point of law from the Tribunal and the vast majority have come from tenants.
    Until the deadline passes for payment nothing can be done. It is most likely the RTB will take a case in the District Court for non payment if you inform them you haven't been pai. This will only happen after the July deadline for payment. The RTBN will get judgement plus costs (which won't cover all of the costs) in tyhe District Court. If there is still no payment, other enforcement mechanisms will have to be used.

    So if I didn't get help from the RTB and paid the costs myself, there would be a high liklihood I wouldn't receive all those costs back?

    And when you say other enforcement methods, what would an example of that be? A case of going to the Gardaí for failure to comply with a court order?

    Thanks so much for your input.


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    #14
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    In any civil case it often happens that not all of the costs are recoverable. In the District Court there are scale costs. These are often a lot less that the lawyers acting in the case charge. All you can get from the other side is the scale costs. Other enforcement methods are garnishee, instalment order, judgement mortgage. The guards, contrary to what you might think are not debt collectors.


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    #15
    LyleLanley
    Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭LyleLanley


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    In any civil case it often happens that not all of the costs are recoverable. In the District Court there are scale costs. These are often a lot less that the lawyers acting in the case charge. All you can get from the other side is the scale costs. Other enforcement methods are garnishee, instalment order, judgement mortgage. The guards, contrary to what you might think are not debt collectors.

    Perfect, I'll look into those... That's great, thanks very much! I was able to get into tenancy law as much as I needed for the case up to this point but now it's heading towards the courts and there's serious money and stuff involved I am essentially clueless.

    Given that info about the costs I guess my best bet would be to go to the RTB to see if they can help first instead of trying to go it alone from the get go.

    Cheers!


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    #16
    Joick8888
    Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭Joick8888


    Not been.funny he might be skink.so.you might get nothing the rtb is not a court. The truth said there useless if hes skint you well get.nothing no good going to the rtb they wont help.there worse then a choc tea pot


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    #17
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Joick8888 wrote: »
    Not been.funny he might be skink.so.you might get nothing the rtb is not a court. The truth said there useless if hes skint you well get.nothing no good going to the rtb they wont help.there worse then a choc tea pot

    That is ridiculous. He has the property and other rental income.


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    #18
    Fol20
    Registered Users Posts: 3,624 ✭✭✭Fol20


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    That is ridiculous. He has the property and other rental income.

    They would put a lean on his property. Does the ll have other rental income also?


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    #19
    LyleLanley
    Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭LyleLanley


    Fol20 wrote: »
    They would put a lean on his property. Does the ll have other rental income also?

    He has 3 apartments and one house that I know of. Total monthly income on the apartments at least is somewhere around the €3000 mark.

    I am a small bit concerned he'd take assets out of his own name or something and potentially say he can't pay, because he doesn't work a day/night job or anything, being a LL is his job...


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    #20
    Fol20
    Registered Users Posts: 3,624 ✭✭✭Fol20


    LyleLanley wrote: »
    He has 3 apartments and one house that I know of. Total monthly income on the apartments at least is somewhere around the €3000 mark.

    I am a small bit concerned he'd take assets out of his own name or something and potentially say he can't pay, because he doesn't work a day/night job or anything, being a LL is his job...

    I wouldnt be concerned about that.
    For only around 10k, its not worth it to transfer them as legal fees alone may cost that or more.
    If he has any mortgages, the person they are being to will either need to reapply for a nee mortgage or have cash.
    There is normally a time frame of x years where the asset can no longer be taken. If its only a few months and he does something like this. The judge will see right through what he is doing.


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    #21
    LyleLanley
    Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭LyleLanley


    Fol20 wrote: »
    I wouldnt be concerned about that.
    For only around 10k, its not worth it to transfer them as legal fees alone may cost that or more.
    If he has any mortgages, the person they are being to will either need to reapply for a nee mortgage or have cash.
    There is normally a time frame of x years where the asset can no longer be taken. If its only a few months and he does something like this. The judge will see right through what he is doing.

    Cool, thank you. I was unsure if it was doable in such a short time frame but the LL is really, really bitter about this whole dispute so I'm just fully expecting him to do something, even drastic, to get out of having to pay!


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    #22
    Fol20
    Registered Users Posts: 3,624 ✭✭✭Fol20


    LyleLanley wrote: »
    Cool, thank you. I was unsure if it was doable in such a short time frame but the LL is really, really bitter about this whole dispute so I'm just fully expecting him to do something, even drastic, to get out of having to pay!

    I would be talking to a solicitor just so you cover all bases if your worried about it. Anything legal will always take time. Its understandable to be bitter if you have to pay out 10k but at the same time, unless hes an idiot, he has to be practical about what will happen next. If it ends up costing him much more money and headache, it might be easier to just to pay up and sort it out even if you disagree.


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    #23
    Joick8888
    Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭Joick8888


    Look.the rtb useless if your waiting for money from.LL U MIGHT GET NOTHING HE MIGHT BE IN DEBT HIM SELF if he does not want to pay take LL to court he might offer u 5 euro month if your lucky because he onws house means nothing. He might behind in his mortgage u dont know as I say rtb no bloody good there very carefull on advice they give theere like robots, it also has a high turnover of staff even the ceo off the rtb says its unfit for purpose


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    #24
    Fol20
    Registered Users Posts: 3,624 ✭✭✭Fol20


    Joick8888 wrote: »
    Look.the rtb useless if your waiting for money from.LL U MIGHT GET NOTHING HE MIGHT BE IN DEBT HIM SELF if he does not want to pay take LL to court he might offer u 5 euro month if your lucky because he onws house means nothing. He might behind in his mortgage u dont know as I say rtb no bloody good there very carefull on advice they give theere like robots, it also has a high turnover of staff even the ceo off the rtb says its unfit for purpose

    Tenants might be on the spectrum of 5e a week however ll are certainly not. If they have assets, they will be garnished to pay back debt.

    The CEO of RTB is always looming for more funding to validate their jobs so no wonder he is saying that. In this case its true but a good manager will always seek more.


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    #25
    LyleLanley
    Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭LyleLanley


    Joick8888 wrote: »
    Look.the rtb useless if your waiting for money from.LL U MIGHT GET NOTHING HE MIGHT BE IN DEBT HIM SELF if he does not want to pay take LL to court he might offer u 5 euro month if your lucky because he onws house means nothing. He might behind in his mortgage u dont know as I say rtb no bloody good there very carefull on advice they give theere like robots, it also has a high turnover of staff even the ceo off the rtb says its unfit for purpose

    Are you my old LL?? XD

    But seriously, I get the distinct impression they let you down quite badly but the RTB have, so far, been pretty on the ball with my case. It's been slow, cos that's how it works, but they've been massively helpful throughout this whole thing. I understand the failings of the body; they're pretty well documented, but repeating that here is kinda just redundant when there's other people actually offering salient pointers and help to me. I also have a better understanding of the LLs finances and background so shouting at me about that through your keyboard ain't doing much!
    Fol20 wrote: »
    I would be talking to a solicitor just so you cover all bases if your worried about it. Anything legal will always take time. Its understandable to be bitter if you have to pay out 10k but at the same time, unless hes an idiot, he has to be practical about what will happen next. If it ends up costing him much more money and headache, it might be easier to just to pay up and sort it out even if you disagree.

    That practicality is what I'm hoping for but I guess I'll just have to wait an see. There's been some nonsensical stuff from him throughout and he's inexperienced in coming up against this stuff as he inherited all those properties from his deceased brother a little over a year ago so I was his first tenant. Hopefully he'll learn something from all this...


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    #26
    rightmove
    Registered Users Posts: 992 ✭✭✭rightmove


    Op if the shoe was on the other foot would you pay him?. You are happy with rtb coz they ruled in your favour.


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    #27
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    1) I'd imagine it's much easier for the RTB to pursue a landlord as there's an attachment to the property he/she owns.
    2) It's probably safe to assume that somebody who is awarded something in the favour is going to be happy with the party doing the awarding.


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    #28
    LyleLanley
    Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭LyleLanley


    rightmove wrote: »
    Op if the shoe was on the other foot would you pay him?. You are happy with rtb coz they ruled in your favour.

    Well yeah, that seems obvious. I tasked them with a complaint and they've done their job so far, and I'm happy with them as far as it pertains to my situation. What's your point?

    I wouldn't have done all the illegal **** he did. The amount of violations he racked up... Nor would I have gotten so infuriated by my challenging an illegal rent increase that I'd do an illegal inspection and leave all my windows open so my pet cat went missing. Can't see myself wearing those shoes.


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    #29
    Fol20
    Registered Users Posts: 3,624 ✭✭✭Fol20


    rightmove wrote: »
    Op if the shoe was on the other foot would you pay him?. You are happy with rtb coz they ruled in your favour.

    No one is in favour of making a payout. Even if a ll wins, they may never see the day when they receive the arrears or damage etc. I wonder why we as ll are never entitled to compensation even if its difficult to recoup?

    OP, i would recommend editing your previous post so that none of it is personally recognizable on the issues you came across. Completely up to you but i would be careful what you put on the internet especially when you lodged a legal dispute.


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    #30
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    LyleLanley wrote: »
    Well yeah, that seems obvious. I tasked them with a complaint and they've done their job so far, and I'm happy with them as far as it pertains to my situation. What's your point?

    I wouldn't have done all the illegal **** he did. The amount of violations he racked up... Nor would I have gotten so infuriated by my challenging an illegal rent increase that I'd do an illegal inspection and leave all my windows open so my pet cat went missing. Can't see myself wearing those shoes.

    Did you have the landlords permission to bring a cat into his property.


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    #31
    LyleLanley
    Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭LyleLanley


    tretorn wrote: »
    Did you have the landlords permission to bring a cat into his property.

    Yes, I had the cat for years and his presence was permitted in all my contracts in that property.

    The tone of this forum is hilariously hostile... This seems to be spiralling into irrelevant questioning now so it can probably be locked.

    4ensic15 and Fol20, thanks very much for your help and advice. It's all really beneficial for me to get a clearer mental picture of what's to come.


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