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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    because the values of islam are the same as those within many branches of the right.

    Which values would this be? If the right as you say 'rules the west' then how come minorities, women and gays are much freer here than in countries with Sharia law?

    Also, are you ever going to answer my question I put to you a few months ago where you claimed that Hitler was a practicing Catholic up until he died and that Stalin on his death bed renounced Atheism and turned religious....


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    robindch wrote: »
    The thread was opened by jank ....

    It was opened with the blessing of the mods.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    jank wrote:
    even when a minority of Muslims seek to harm western liberal principles that were hard won

    That's the most app summation ever: a minority. So, we should defend and accommodate the majority. Nothing hypocritical about that.
    Muslims are always seen as victims while the west are bullies.
    Which is sometimes true. And sometimes the reverse is true. The world isn't black and white.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Turtwig wrote: »
    That's the most app summation ever: a minority. So, we should defend and accommodate the majority. Nothing hypocritical about that.

    The Majority are happy to live side by side and embrace western liberal principles and the opportunity that arise from this. The majority are already accommodated and we should defend people who are religious but are happy to embrace Hellenic principles.
    Turtwig wrote: »
    Which is sometimes true. And sometimes the reverse is true. The world isn't black and white.

    Totally agree but try telling that to the Socialist Workers Party who blames the Western ruling class for the Charlie Hedbo murders. Muslims are always victims in their eyes. You proved my and their point.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,570 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    jank wrote: »
    It seems that young university types who would think themselves as liberal are actually quite conservative. Banning the Sun newspaper, pop songs and books that does not fit their moral compass or outlook. It sounds like the 1950's only with extra bandwidth.

    I would certainly be against mandatory sensitivity training brain washing as portrayed here.

    So you describe them as "left wing" and then quite quickly point out they're conservative in their work view? Just so you can take a cheap shot at "liberals/lefties", I assume.

    Anyone who believes as they do is not left wing, which you already know, so why not simply criticise them for their actions instead of tagging on a broad criticism of the left.

    FWIW, I agree with the training, if it saves one person from being rapped it's worked. Banning songs I don't agree with, unless it's One Direction.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭BuilderPlumber


    It always amazes me how the left and right extremists often support each other. For example, many leftwingers support rightwing fascist 'Islamic' fundamentalists who are actually neo-Nazis hiding behind warped versions of 'Islam'. Alois Brunner, an ex Nazi, went to Syria after WW2 and he is probably at least partly responsible for Islamic fascism.

    The same with the rightwingers. They publically hate Muslims in their own countries like France and the UK. Yet, extremists like Nick Griffin (an Irishman in charge of a British nationalist party) had cosy relations with 'Islamic' fascist regimes in the 1980s.

    All politicians are slimy jellyfish with no principles anyway. Extremists are worse and their only goal really is the path to absolute power and the way to get there does not matter.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,190 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    All politicians are slimy jellyfish with no principles anyway.

    You've met them all? Colour me impressed!


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    It always amazes me how the left and right extremists often support each other.
    By the time that people have moved as far left or right as they can, they've frequently met their opponents coming in the other direction.

    That's one of the reasons why I dislike the facile terms "left" and "right" - they describe very poorly the basic functioning of people's political tendencies, despite the peculiar belief amongst some people that they do it amazingly well.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭BuilderPlumber


    robindch wrote: »
    By the time that people have moved as far left or right as they can, they've frequently met their opponents coming in the other direction.

    That's one of the reasons why I dislike the facile terms "left" and "right" - they describe very poorly the basic functioning of people's political tendencies, despite the peculiar belief amongst some people that they do it amazingly well.

    Very true. The proof is a look at Pol Pot's Cambodia v Taliban Afghanistan. One an officially leftwing regime, the other a very rightwing one but BOTH were essentially the same. North Korea and Ceaucescu's Romania acted like royalty and were kingdoms in all but name. Stalin v Hitler is another example.

    I prefer to categorise politicians as moderate v extremist/radical. The most dangerous individuals are those who have a dream (no matter how well intentioned or not) who will stop at nothing to achieve it (inclusive of killing people). Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, the Taliban, ISIS, al Qaeda, the Kim regime, Enver Hoxha, Mao, GW Bush, etc. are all examples of this type of person/regime. Ideology driven more than pragmatic.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Brian? wrote: »
    So you describe them as "left wing" and then quite quickly point out they're conservative in their work view? Just so you can take a cheap shot at "liberals/lefties", I assume.

    Anyone who believes as they do is not left wing, which you already know, so why not simply criticise them for their actions instead of tagging on a broad criticism of the left.

    FWIW, I agree with the training, if it saves one person from being rapped it's worked. Banning songs I don't agree with, unless it's One Direction.

    Blast from the past...

    You miss the point, they identify themselves and see themselves as left wing. One can be left wing and also conservative which this demonstrates.

    One just has to look at the groups behind banning newspapers, pop songs and books. Banning things and censorship is normally seen as authoritarian which has usually been an attribute of the right but alas, the left now a days are going full circle so to speak. As I mentioned in my post when George Carlin and Chris Rock mentioned that they noticed this doing gigs a number of years ago. Causing offense carries the same social taboo as committing an actual crime in a lot of circles and this is an extension on this.

    Regarding the mandatory 'training' and courses you have no problem with ( I wonder if you would be so keen if this was religious 'training' of old ;)), where 'a lot of men' are described as 'pre-rapists', the line, 'well if it saves one person its worth it' is a cop out as it gives no credence or leverage to the holistic nature of this type of re-education, the damage to critical thinking and to men's self esteem over the longer term, especially where men are seen as criminals that have to be cured, cleansed and molded into some sort of acceptable version of themselves according to left wing University bureaucrat.

    Would you agree therefore that we should specifically re-educate Muslim men who enter the UK in the same fashion in an effort to prevent another Rotherham incident? If it saves on rape eh ? ;)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    robindch wrote: »
    By the time that people have moved as far left or right as they can, they've frequently met their opponents coming in the other direction.

    That's one of the reasons why I dislike the facile terms "left" and "right" - they describe very poorly the basic functioning of people's political tendencies, despite the peculiar belief amongst some people that they do it amazingly well.
    One of my favourite phrases, 'go far enough to the left and you will meet someone coming round from the right.'

    MrP


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Calling someone Mr. and Ms. is banned at New York University.

    http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/21034/
    City University of New York’s Graduate Center tells faculty to ‘eliminate use of gendered salutations and references’

    Professors and other employees at the City University of New York’s Graduate Center have been forbidden from addressing students and prospective students with the title “Mr.” and “Ms.” because, campus leaders say, the terms may be offensive.

    “Effective Spring 2015, the (graduate center’s) policy is to eliminate the use of gendered salutations and references in correspondence to students, prospective students, and third parties,” Louise Lennihan, interim provost, states to employees in a recent memo. “Accordingly, Mr. and Ms. should be omitted from salutations.”

    Lennihan instructs staffers to interpret the new policy “as broadly as possible,” that it applies to “all types of correspondence, such as: all parts of any letter including address and salutation, mailing labels, bills or invoices, and any other forms or reports,” states the memo, a copy of which was provided to The College Fix by school spokeswoman Tanya Domi.

    Rather than using “Mr.” or “Ms.,” staff are instructed to refer to students by his or her full name. The policy will “ensure a respectful, welcoming, and gender-inclusive learning environment … [and] accommodate properly the diverse population of current and prospective students,” Lennihan states in the memo.

    Sure why not go the whole hog and address people by a number, nobody can be offended by that I presume. Anthem, here we come!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,579 ✭✭✭swampgas


    jank wrote: »
    Calling someone Mr. and Ms. is banned at New York University.

    http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/21034/


    Sure why not go the whole hog and address people by a number, nobody can be offended by that I presume. Anthem, here we come!

    Sure, 10178, why not?

    best wishes // 151701


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    jank wrote: »
    Anthem, here we come!
    It's been discussed elsewhere, even on this forum, but Anthem is a serious contender for the lamest piece of writing ever produced in the English language.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 541 ✭✭✭Bristolscale7


    Slight correction, that's not NYU it's CUNY http://www.cuny.edu/index.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,968 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Slight correction, that's not NYU it's CUNY http://www.cuny.edu/index.html

    Don't let that get in the way of a rant.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Done.

    Who else should we ban today?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    Turtwig wrote: »
    Done.

    Who else should we ban today?
    I would like to request that Permabear gets banned. If you spell his name backward, and then split it up it become clear his name is actually 'raeba Mr eP' and that makes me feel bad. I feel his ban should be longer, as his case is aggravated by the fact he tried to conceal it.

    MrP


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Done.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,516 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Slight correction, that's not NYU it's CUNY

    Couldn't they have chosen a less unfortunate initialism??

    Scrap the cap!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    Couldn't they have chosen a less unfortunate initialism??

    City Learning University Newyork General Education Site?


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,968 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Manhattan Institute of Next Generation Education?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,516 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Cavan-Leitrim Institute of Technology :cool:

    Scrap the cap!



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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Shannon Higher Institute of Technology and Education(*)





    (*) We used this name from time to time, back in the 80's...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    Couldn't they have chosen a less unfortunate initialism??

    For about five glorious years the IT, Tralee was known as Tralee Insititute of Technology or, you guessed it, a big TIT.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    robindch wrote: »
    Shannon Higher Institute of Technology and Education(*)





    (*) We used this name from time to time, back in the 80's...

    I thought it was NIHEL


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Turtwig wrote: »
    I thought it was NIHEL
    Yes, but there was also Thomond College of Education across the soccer pitch, so when the two merged in 1989, chatter down the pub suggested that the tech-heavy NIHE-L + the education-heavy Thomond should be merged under the acronym, cough, mentioned above.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    For about five glorious years the IT, Tralee was known as Tralee Insititute of Technology or, you guessed it, a big TIT.

    I do get a laugh from the like of LYIT, DIT, CIT etc having their location at the start but if I ever see IT,<location> I automatically put it the other way to see what abbreviation they are trying to avoid.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    robindch wrote: »
    Yes, but there was also Thomond College of Education across the soccer pitch, so when the two merged in 1989, chatter down the pub suggested that the tech-heavy NIHE-L + the education-heavy Thomond should be merged under the acronym, cough, mentioned above.

    Oh wow I just got the ****E acronym thing now. :o
    My brain is slow. :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭BuilderPlumber


    MrPudding wrote: »
    I would like to request that Permabear gets banned. If you spell his name backward, and then split it up it become clear his name is actually 'raeba Mr eP' and that makes me feel bad. I feel his ban should be longer, as his case is aggravated by the fact he tried to conceal it.

    MrP

    Who or what is Raeba Mr Ep?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Is this some new North Korean dictator we need to be afraid of :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Why It's Socially Unacceptable To Do Anything



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,511 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    Unite Against Facism, oh where have we heard them before?

    French far-right leader Marine Le Pen mobbed by Oxford Union protesters

    Crowds of protesters gathered outside the building to denounce the controversial leader of France's far-right Front National. Her speech to gathered union members was delayed by over one hour as the angry crowd attempted to block entrances. Union officials have faced criticism for inviting Ms Le Pen to speak uninterrupted for five minutes, rather than insisting on a more traditional debate format where an opponent would have also been heard.

    The disruption meant that many of those with tickets for her speech were unable to attend. Similarly the scrum outside the union meant that reporters were unable to get inside.

    Yeah, let's try to censor political thought...that helps debate. At least the Union invited her.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Yeah, let's try to censor political thought...that helps debate.
    There's a fine line between, on the one hand, encouraging legitimate, honest, open debate, and on the other hand, providing cranks with free airtime - an issue we grapple with here on A+A from time to time, incidentally.

    Until recently, I wasn't aware of Le Pen's modus operandi well enough to make a confident judgement on what she's like and whether the degree of responsibility she brings to public debate is worthy of the right to unlimited access to it, but now that her political outfit is being funded directly from Moscow, and a bank owned by one of Putin's friends, I have to say my sadness at hearing that her speech was interrupted or blocked is distinctly limited.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,511 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    We should be scrutinising every politician's financial backing anyway.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    As galling as it can be to give these people the time of day, never mind a platform for their bull****, I think the best solution is always to give them enough rope to hang themselves.

    I think throwing a strop and trying to block them speaking plays into their hands and creates this persecution narrative that they can use to garner sympathy from fence sitters.
    Maybe there's a net benefit in a reduction of numbers of people of who will be persuaded towards fascism, but irrespective of that, I think it's immoral to try to block that discourse.

    It always seems obvious when the person you're blocking is Le Pen, but it won't always be so clear cut and if you allow one group to sabotage another's right to speak, I think you're leaving the doors open for it to happen on more borderline issues.

    Lefties are just as prone as right-wingers to being too insecure in their beliefs to be able to tolerate dissent. It's clearly a fundamental human trait.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    Bill Maher is pretty much a posterboy for threads like this.
    Apparently he had a roll around in some anti-vaxx bull**** on one of his recent shows.

    Given how utterly daft he can be on some issues, I can only think that when he gets things right it's totally by accident.

    For a self-professed skeptic, his ability to reason is pretty shocking.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Hardly a week goes by without someone from the Socialist Party of Ireland advocating some downright insane and wacky economic proposal. Perhaps we have to limit their airtime by force.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Following on with the topic of free speach and the illberal left.

    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2015/01/not-a-very-pc-thing-to-say.html

    His article caused a bit of a ruckus even though the author himself would be a card carrying democratic liberal.

    A snippet..
    It is true that liberals and leftists both want to make society more economically and socially egalitarian. But liberals still hold to the classic Enlightenment political tradition that cherishes individuals rights, freedom of expression, and the protection of a kind of free political marketplace. (So, for that matter, do most conservatives.)

    The Marxist left has always dismissed liberalism’s commitment to protecting the rights of its political opponents — you know, the old line often misattributed to Voltaire, “I disapprove of what you have to say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it” — as hopelessly naïve. If you maintain equal political rights for the oppressive capitalists and their proletarian victims, this will simply keep in place society’s unequal power relations. Why respect the rights of the class whose power you’re trying to smash? And so, according to Marxist thinking, your political rights depend entirely on what class you belong to.

    The modern far left has borrowed the Marxist critique of liberalism and substituted race and gender identities for economic ones. “The liberal view,” wrote MacKinnon 30 years ago, “is that abstract categories — like speech or equality — define systems. Every time you strengthen free speech in one place, you strengthen it everywhere. Strengthening the free speech of the Klan strengthens the free speech of Blacks.” She deemed this nonsensical: “It equates substantive powerlessness with substantive power and calls treating these the same, ‘equality.’ 

    Well worth a read..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭BuilderPlumber


    jank wrote: »
    Hardly a week goes by without someone from the Socialist Party of Ireland advocating some downright insane and wacky economic proposal. Perhaps we have to limit their airtime by force.

    The problem with these guys is that they don't care about the how to implement what they say: as all they care about is saying it, having it become popular among the people and then get them votes. When they are elected, they can gladly become part of the next hodge podge government of either FF/SF and independents or FG/Labour and independents and then they can justify being in government 'for the national interest'. It will be a laugh to watch Paul Murphy defend Irish Water in 2017.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭KomradeBishop


    Fantastic article here on how people - throughout the ideological spectrum - who hold conspiratorial/crank views about many topics (anti-vax, climate change denial), often hold those views due to a 'crisis of authority', i.e. (if I'm understand this right) distrust of an authority (often for good reason), whether that authority be government, religion, or even science itself:
    www.salon.com/2015/02/07/anti_vaxxers_climate_deniers_and_the_crisis_of_authority

    Never thought of it from that angle before, as the author ties a lot of related things together very well.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Feminist activists urge boycott of 50 shades of Grey equating the movie is akin to 'promoting' domestic abuse.
    Dakota Johnson, the actress who plays Anastasia, urged people to see the film before drawing any conclusions.

    "Everything that Anastasia does is completely her choice and it's consensual and no person is abused in the movie and I think it's kind of a closed-minded outlook," she said at the Berlin premiere on Wednesday.

    Not ironic seeing as the target audience of the books and the movie are women in their 20's and 30's? Never mind the author is also a woman. (God help us if it were a man!)

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carey-purcell/fifty-shades-of-grey-feminism_b_2395932.html

    The unholy alliance is also getting in on the act.
    http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/movies/2015/02/12/feminists-moralists-conservatives-slam-fifty-shades/23297675/

    Feminists the new conservatives? Quite possible.
    https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/tens-of-thousands-urge-boycott-of-fifty-shades-of-grey
    "Feminists and social conservatives agree: Fifty Shades of Grey promotes misogyny, abuse, and manipulation, not relationships based upon mutual love and respect," said the coalition. "This film normalizes and glamorizes behaviors such as stalking, threats and physical violence. Its portrayal of relationships and sex is offensive to real life victims of domestic abuse. The film sets a particularly dangerous example for younger viewers, who may not understand that attractive, charismatic young billionaire Christian Grey is also an abusive sociopath, especially since victim/narrator Anastasia Steele continually describes and portrays him as a god."

    Anyway, men are at fault and to blame again...
    http://theconversation.com/fifty-shades-of-grey-is-just-an-old-fashioned-romance-thats-the-problem-37440
    This is consistent with a wider cultural script in which obsessive male behaviour and men’s sense of entitlement to women is still too often legitimated, with concrete, material effects on women’s safety and lives. Ana agrees to marry Christian aged 21, and just weeks into their relationship, because he needs reassurance that she is “his”, she modifies her behaviour to contain his rage, in recognition of the maternal neglect and paedophilic abuse (by an older woman) which has brought him here. Male violence is women’s responsibility.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    The book it's based on depicts a disturbing abusive relationship. Definitely think it's distasteful to be released on Valentine's. Ffs like some women actually have to experience Valentine's with men along the same lines of Grey.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    So what you're saying is Jank, never criticize or boycott something, because criticism is bad and freedom to protest is wrong?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,690 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Links234 wrote: »
    So what you're saying is Jank, never criticize or boycott something, because criticism is bad and freedom to protest is wrong?
    No, what you are saying, Links, is that if somebody ever takes issue with any particular criticism or any particular boycott, they can be taken as saying that criticism in general is bad and freedom to protest is wrong.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    No, what you are saying, Links, is that if somebody ever takes issue with any particular criticism or any particular boycott, they can be taken as saying that criticism in general is bad and freedom to protest is wrong.

    So in essense Peregrinus you are saying that if someone takes issue with someone taking issue over someone taking issue... where were we? :confused:


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