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Which discrimination should trump which discrimination?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18


    Anyway as I said before, in all likelihood the people would not have been served no matter what cake they wanted once they identified as gay, its just that company thought the logo gave them an out once the shít hit the midden.

    Any evidence to support that claim?

    I suppose if a straight person had ordered the cake they would have baked it?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    Problem solved. Anyway as I said before, in all likelihood the people would not have been served no matter what cake they wanted once they identified as gay, its just that company thought the logo gave them an out once the shít hit the midden.


    I must have missed that piece of evidence in any of the media reports I've read, or did you just make that up yourself?

    I'm sure the bakery in question has baked numerous cakes for LGBT people who saw no reason to inform the owner of their sexual orientation. It's quite likely they hadn't considered it relevant, unless you're now trying to imply that a person is required to inform people of their sexual orientation before they employ their services?


  • Registered Users Posts: 807 ✭✭✭Vivisectus


    Well, there is one way of testing this. Let's track down their phone number and see if we can get them to make us a wedding-cake with two grooms on it. That says "Adam And Steve Together Forever" or something.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    Vivisectus wrote: »
    Gotcha. Freedom of speech should be limited to people with inoffensive opinions.


    What? You claimed I talk nonsense, and then come out with that?

    If speech is restricted, then it's not free, and there should never be any such thing as free speech because there will always be that minority that shout longer and louder and make more noise than adding value to society. Freedom of speech is nice in theory, but in practice, it's a mess.

    Righty-oh. There is no difference between me forbidding people to print Bibles and forbidding the use of non-eco friendly paper, it is just that people are taking it personally.


    You'll get no argument from me on that score, I'm a big advocate of the paperless office, and when I stay in hotels, I leave the courtesy Bible they provide down at reception as I carry my own Bible in digital format. I wouldn't take it personally.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    Vivisectus wrote: »
    Well, there is one way of testing this. Let's track down their phone number and see if we can get them to make us a wedding-cake with two grooms on it. That says "Adam And Steve Together Forever" or something.


    Off you go, do report back. I'd be interested to know how you got on.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 807 ✭✭✭Vivisectus


    What? You claimed I talk nonsense, and then come out with that?

    If speech is restricted, then it's not free, and there should never be any such thing as free speech because there will always be that minority that shout longer and louder and make more noise than adding value to society. Freedom of speech is nice in theory, but in practice, it's a mess.

    Why complain only to proceed to confirm I was correct? You say freedom of speech is nice in theory, but in practice people say things that you have unilaterally decided are not "adding value to society" and so you reject it.

    Hence, freedom of speech is not a sound principle because people say things that you do not like.

    In stead I say freedom is speech is a fundamental value in our society, and for good reason. However that does not mean that I do not also have the right not to be unreasonably bothered by deliberately offensive or hateful speech if I do not wish to be.

    Hence we have laws against harassment and we can refuse service to people who use disrespectful language or profanity, etc.
    You'll get no argument from me on that score, I'm a big advocate of the paperless office, and when I stay in hotels, I leave the courtesy Bible they provide down at reception as I carry my own Bible in digital format. I wouldn't take it personally.

    Excellent! So if we stated to ban the printing of Bibles in Ireland, this would be fine by you: there is no difference between it and the banning of using certain materials, except that Christians tend to take it personally.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Vivisectus wrote: »
    Well, there is one way of testing this. Let's track down their phone number and see if we can get them to make us a wedding-cake with two grooms on it. That says "Adam And Steve Together Forever" or something.
    You'll need two people and two calls though; one gay and one straight. If they refuse to make the cake for both they're not discriminating against gay people. If they only refuse to make the cake for the gay caller, they're discriminating against gay people (and psychic). If they only refuse to make the cake for the straight caller, they're just pissed off with people ringing up to annoy them. Or confused.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    Vivisectus wrote: »
    Why complain only to proceed to confirm I was correct? You say freedom of speech is nice in theory, but in practice people say things that you have unilaterally decided are not "adding value to society" and so you reject it.

    Hence, freedom of speech is not a sound principle because people say things that you do not like.

    In stead I say freedom is speech is a fundamental value in our society, and for good reason. However that does not mean that I do not also have the right not to be unreasonably bothered by deliberately offensive or hateful speech if I do not wish to be.

    Hence we have laws against harassment and we can refuse service to people who use disrespectful language or profanity, etc.


    Soooo... Freedom of speech, but only with qualifiers that suit you and we can disregard my opinion as irrelevant. I see what you're doing there, and it's pretty much guaranteed to come back and bite you in the ass when you meet someone else who has a different opinion again to both of ours.

    Excellent! So if we stated to ban the printing of Bibles in Ireland, this would be fine by you: there is no difference between it and the banning of using certain materials, except that Christians tend to take it personally.


    Ahh, but there you go again viewing the world though your own subjective lens! To most people, the Bible is just a book. To most people, Mein Kampf is just a book. To most people, The Hobbit is just a book... you see where this is going?

    So if we are to apply your standards, then we must ban the printing of ALL books. In the same way - a bakery that refuses to design a cake in a certain fashion, must then deny ALL customers that design.

    Then everybody's happy, right?

    How are you getting on with tracking down that bakery anyway?

    Closer to home (depending on where you live I suppose), you could always try the Bretzl Bakery in Dublin and ask them will they bake you a penis cake, or boobs, I dunno, whatever you're into yourself, and see what they say -

    The Bretzel Bakery on 1a Lennox St, Portobello, Dublin 8 (tel. 01 475 27 24). A list is available instore of their kosher products. Irish Pride breads and buns are kosher parve, except for Boston Brown and the Fruit Bracks which are kosher dairy. Exceptions are: Soda bread. Bread with Omega 3 (eg Kids VITA) & Iced Logs, which are not kosher. Kingsmill and Sunblest bread are certified kosher.


    http://www.jewishireland.org/visiting-ireland/food/


    Just the one slice for me thanks, I'm watching my figure.


  • Registered Users Posts: 890 ✭✭✭Get Real


    In my opinion, one discrimination should "trump" another when it negatively affects the other discrimination to a higher degree.

    In this instance the cake maker is religious, and thats fine, they have their views and a right to be heard.

    However, these beliefs influenced a professional/business decision. A gay couple should have every right to get whatever kind of cake they want, the same as if I want to order an adult themed/ shaped cake etc or a novelty cake, or a kids cake.

    The baker would have been paid for this cake and for their work.

    At no point do religious/ political views enter it. A couple wanted a cake, and went to a suitable baker who does this type of work and cash would have been paid.

    The couple were denied this cake on the basis of their sexuality.

    Both are entitled to have their beliefs and voice them, but not when it enters a business transaction and someone is denied a service because of their sexuality.

    For every fundamental human right, there is a fundamental human responsibility.

    I have the right to free speech. I have the responsibility to use that right in a constructive way, and not use it to preach hate/ racism.

    I have the right to free movement. I have the responsibility to ensure I have the correct documentation and that I have not committed any offences that would prevent me from moving freely.

    The baker has a right to religion. He has a responsibility to respect others opinions and not incite hatred. Therefore he has failed to adhere to his responsibilities associated with his right.


  • Registered Users Posts: 807 ✭✭✭Vivisectus


    Soooo... Freedom of speech, but only with qualifiers that suit you and we can disregard my opinion as irrelevant. I see what you're doing there, and it's pretty much guaranteed to come back and bite you in the ass when you meet someone else who has a different opinion again to both of ours.

    No, not qualifiers per se. I do not really limit freedom of speech, I just point out that there is also the freedom to not be harassed, or otherwise hampered. So in some cases we may have to limit the venues or ways in which some speech can be uttered so we are not unnecessarily bothering people either. For instance, you would not necessarily have a Jim Jefferies show in a pre-school.

    Ahh, but there you go again viewing the world though your own subjective lens! To most people, the Bible is just a book. To most people, Mein Kampf is just a book. To most people, The Hobbit is just a book... you see where this is going?

    No, I am utterly at sea as to where you are going with this. Can you clarify?
    So if we are to apply your standards, then we must ban the printing of ALL books. In the same way - a bakery that refuses to design a cake in a certain fashion, must then deny ALL customers that design.

    That is not the point I was making, nor does it follow from the point that I was making. At all. Nor do you show why or how my line of reasoning would lead to this, at all. You just seem to have jumped to that conclusion from a standing start.
    How are you getting on with tracking down that bakery anyway?

    So far I have not had an opportunity, but I will give this a go this evening when I am at home.
    Closer to home (depending on where you live I suppose), you could always try the Bretzl Bakery in Dublin and ask them will they bake you a penis cake, or boobs, I dunno, whatever you're into yourself, and see what they say -

    Well done! You have followed some other posters in this thread and have happily compared even the very mention of homosexuality to profanity or pornography.

    Next time any critic of religion automatically mentions child abuse, you will have no reason to complain.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 807 ✭✭✭Vivisectus


    Absolam wrote: »
    You'll need two people and two calls though; one gay and one straight. If they refuse to make the cake for both they're not discriminating against gay people. If they only refuse to make the cake for the gay caller, they're discriminating against gay people (and psychic). If they only refuse to make the cake for the straight caller, they're just pissed off with people ringing up to annoy them. Or confused.

    If that is the case, then it is not discrimination against christians to ban printing the bible, as long as atheists and christians are both banned from doing so.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 133 ✭✭mrsweebri


    They should be free to refuse to print the slogan. I should be free to boycott the bakery.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    Get Real wrote: »
    At no point do religious/ political views enter it. A couple wanted a cake
    An activist wanted a political cake with a logo on it

    The couple were denied this cake on the basis of their sexuality.
    What couple are you talking about?
    Both are entitled to have their beliefs and voice them, but not when it enters a business transaction and someone is denied a service because of their sexuality.
    We don't know the sexuality of the activist


  • Registered Users Posts: 807 ✭✭✭Vivisectus


    mrsweebri wrote: »
    They should be free to refuse to print the slogan. I should be free to boycott the bakery.

    How about the school your kids go through: should they be allowed to refuse to enroll your kids next year based on their religion? You can always boycott them, right?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    Vivisectus wrote: »
    How about the school your kids go through: should they be allowed to refuse to enroll your kids next year based on their religion? You can always boycott them, right?

    This happens already


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 133 ✭✭mrsweebri


    Vivisectus wrote: »
    How about the school your kids go through: should they be allowed to refuse to enroll your kids next year based on their religion? You can always boycott them, right?

    I already have vivisectus. Educate together ftw.

    (Edited to add: I boycott Catholic school not because they refuse to enrol my children, but because they refuse to teach with an inclusive ethos - a closer comparison to the cake shop situation than the scenario you suggested).


  • Registered Users Posts: 807 ✭✭✭Vivisectus


    bluewolf wrote: »
    This happens already

    too bloody true.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    Vivisectus wrote: »
    No, not qualifiers per se. I do not really limit freedom of speech, I just point out that there is also the freedom to not be harassed, or otherwise hampered. So in some cases we may have to limit the venues or ways in which some speech can be uttered so we are not unnecessarily bothering people either. For instance, you would not necessarily have a Jim Jefferies show in a pre-school.


    What's wrong with Jim Jeffries having free speech in your society? Is not the idea of free speech that he can say what he likes, where he likes, when he likes? I'm about to go downtown in a minute and I'm guaranteed to hear stuff come out of the mouths of children that would make Jim Jeffries blush, and that's only what they say to their parents!

    "Out of the mouths of babes" as they say.

    That is not the point I was making, nor does it follow from the point that I was making. At all. Nor do you show why or how my line of reasoning would lead to this, at all. You just seem to have jumped to that conclusion from a standing start.


    No different than the leaps you're making that would give Shergar a run for his money.

    Well done! You have followed some other posters in this thread and have happily compared even the very mention of homosexuality to profanity or pornography.


    Profanity and pornography? Do you have issues with the human body? I love breasts, I also love penises, in fact I'm very attached to mine and there's nothing profane or pornographic about it, so I don't know how you made that leap in association when I request a penis cake to celebrate my attachment to my penis. I think it deserves a cake of it's own!

    Next time any critic of religion automatically mentions child abuse, you will have no reason to complain.


    I don't. That shìt got old decades ago. You hear it enough times, you eventually become immune to it. Maybe your free speech idea might not be such a bad idea after all - help separate the numpties from the people actually worth listening to?


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Get Real wrote: »
    A gay couple should have every right to get whatever kind of cake they want, the same as if I want to order an adult themed/ shaped cake etc or a novelty cake, or a kids cake.
    But should they have the right to compel someone else to make the cake for them just because they are gay? I don't think so. Just as you don't have the right to compel a baker to make you a penis cake or Wiggles cake just because you want it; if the baker has an aversion to making it they cannot (and should not) be compelled to do so.
    Get Real wrote: »
    The baker would have been paid for this cake and for their work. At no point do religious/ political views enter it. A couple wanted a cake, and went to a suitable baker who does this type of work and cash would have been paid.
    Surely it's a given that a person should be paid for work they undertake? But it hardly means they must undertake any work someone offers to pay for? If so there's a few people I don't like and a couple of unpleasant jobs I need doing.....
    Get Real wrote: »
    The couple were denied this cake on the basis of their sexuality.
    That's just not so. They were denied this cake on the basis of the cake they wanted. The owners never said they wouldn't make them any cake, just they wouldn't make the cake they wanted.
    Get Real wrote: »
    Both are entitled to have their beliefs and voice them, but not when it enters a business transaction and someone is denied a service because of their sexuality.
    So, if I'm gay and I offer to pay you to clean the toilets in my slum apartment block, are you obliged to provide the service? Or are you entitled to decide whether you want to perform that service for that price regardless of my sexuality?
    Get Real wrote: »
    The baker has a right to religion. He has a responsibility to respect others opinions and not incite hatred. Therefore he has failed to adhere to his responsibilities associated with his right.
    Exactly how does not baking a cake incite hatred? I can see how pillorying someone in their local community because they're accused of being homophobic would incite hatred though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 807 ✭✭✭Vivisectus


    mrsweebri wrote: »
    I already have vivisectus. Educate together ftw.

    (Edited to add: I boycott Catholic school not because they refuse to enrol my children, but because they refuse to teach with an inclusive ethos - a closer comparison to the cake shop situation than the scenario you suggested).

    I see your point. I am still worried about the opportunity for exclusion that this brings with it - the whole voting with your wallet/ feet proposition does not always work (look at how tough it can be to find a decent educate together within reasonable commuting range, for a start, or the semi-official segregation in the southern US that lasted well past the end of segretation laws and had a profound impact on black people in the region) and because of this I still think it is not OK for a business to refuse service in cases like this, and that cases like this need to be brought. Perhaps not in a rather ambiguous and trivial case like this, however: they do not seem to have chosen their battle wisely.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 807 ✭✭✭Vivisectus


    What's wrong with Jim Jeffries having free speech in your society?

    Nothing at all. Nor was that my point.
    Is not the idea of free speech that he can say what he likes, where he likes, when he likes?

    I already covered this. read my last posts on the subject.
    I'm about to go downtown in a minute and I'm guaranteed to hear stuff come out of the mouths of children that would make Jim Jeffries blush, and that's only what they say to their parents!

    The point being?
    No different than the leaps you're making that would give Shergar a run for his money.

    Please substantiate how and where I made such a leap.
    Profanity and pornography? Do you have issues with the human body? I love breasts, I also love penises, in fact I'm very attached to mine and there's nothing profane or pornographic about it, so I don't know how you made that leap in association when I request a penis cake to celebrate my attachment to my penis. I think it deserves a cake of it's own!

    You made that one when you recommended I order a penis cake from a jewish bakery as if that is the same thing as asking a christian bakery to print the logo and slogan of a gay rights organisation: the buffoonery is yours, not mine.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Case of the ‘gay cake’ reveals worrying double standards among liberals

    Don't have time to read this, nor so I want to since the article title uses the word "liberal" pejoratively and that means only one thing - totalitarianism!

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/case-of-the-gay-cake-reveals-worrying-double-standards-among-liberals-1.1862130
    Muppets. That seemed to be the prevailing view of the Northern bakery which refused to make a cake with a picture of Bert and Ernie, the tousle-headed Sesame Street twosome on top, and the accompanying slogan, “Support Gay Marriage”. Public opinion was largely on the side of the gay rights activist who tried to order the cake, and the Equality Commission of Northern Ireland, which sent the Christian-run bakery, Ashers, a letter threatening them with possible legal action for discriminating against a customer on the grounds of his sexual orientation.

    Ashers themselves were mostly on their own, apart from the Christian Institute, and various members of the DUP, who popped up to defend the rights of God-fearing Ulster pâtissiers to decorate their cakes entirely in accordance with their own beliefs. The fact that the Equality Commission is a state agency of the devolved government at Stormont, which has voted repeatedly against gay marriage, added a particularly piquant tang to the whole thing. Cakes endorsing gay marriage must, by law, be made if requested, but gay marriage itself is prohibited.

    It is, admittedly, an absurd situation. The top of an iced gateau is a strange battleground for the latest skirmish between religious traditionalists and marriage equality campaigners to take place. But it does raise some interesting questions about whether individuals, businesses or institutions can be – or should be – compelled to accept prevailing liberal ideals. Of course, there’s no doubt whatsoever that discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation, or any other perceived difference of race or sex or (dis)ability or whatever, is wrong. That should go without saying.

    Refusing to serve a customer because he or she is gay is self-evidently discriminatory and is rightly a prosecutable offence. Refusing to write a political slogan, requested by that customer, is an entirely different matter. Surely no company is under any obligation to facilitate the dissemination of beliefs that are antithetical to the ethos of that business. Are they? And anyway, how would it advance the cause of equality to force these unrepentant bakers to renounce their own beliefs, get out the pink piping bag and, through gritted teeth, squirt out the words “Support Gay Marriage”?

    By that logic, you’re neither promoting tolerance and goodwill towards all, nor leading blinkered bigots towards the path of secular enlightenment, merely turning people into hypocrites compelled by the state to endorse a campaign they cannot condone. Their original convictions remain intact, and indeed perhaps are strengthened, but they know to keep quiet about them now. Who wins? Take a different scenario. Say a feminist collective set up its own bakery: should it be forced to make cakes for pro-life celebrations, complete with sweet little fondant foetuses? Of course not, they’d be quite within their rights to tell the anti-abortionists to take their creepy order elsewhere.

    The idea seems to be that the Christian bakers are the people being unreasonable here. Intolerant. Illiberal. Forcibly imposing their views on others, to the detriment of society as a whole. But it seems obvious that these epithets could, with more justification in this instance, be applied to their opponents. Open-minded, right-thinking people have decided that gay marriage is good, therefore it is entirely legitimate to use all kinds of punitive strategies to silence those who can’t quite get their heads around the notion. As the sanctimonious saying goes, we are intolerant of intolerance.
    Or are we just intolerant?

    I am strongly in favour of marriage equality myself, and have no truck with the crackpot beliefs of religious fundamentalists, but I feel queasy when I see so-called liberals adopting the crude, absolutist and authoritarian moves of their traditional opponents, seeking to extinguish views they find unacceptable. True, you could hardly argue that conservative Christians are a persecuted minority in the North. Essentially, they run the place, subjecting the populace at large to a range of repressive restrictions, from when you can finish up your drink in the pub (early), to whether you can donate blood if you’re gay (no thanks) or marry your same-sex partner (sod off, sodomites).

    They are dug well in for the long haul, and show every sign of being virtually un-extinguishable. So perhaps it’s not surprising that local activists feel tempted to try such small-minded resistance tactics. But the practice of selective tolerance and liberal double standards extends much wider – right around the world, in fact – and with far less excuse. Seeking to compel others to conform to approved cultural values is a totalitarian impulse. And it derives from a smug, corpulent complacency that assumes the right to have your cake, whatever the chosen topping, and eat it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    robindch wrote: »
    Case of the ‘gay cake’ reveals worrying double standards among liberals

    Don't have time to read this, nor so I want to since the article title uses the word "liberal" pejoratively and that means only one thing - totalitarianism!

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/case-of-the-gay-cake-reveals-worrying-double-standards-among-liberals-1.1862130


    Ahh here, rob I think you should've taken time to read the piece beyond your knee-jerk reaction to the attention grabbing headline alone. I don't think it's suggesting what you think it's suggesting, but it does make an interesting argument.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    robindch wrote: »
    Case of the ‘gay cake’ reveals worrying double standards among liberals

    Don't have time to read this, nor so I want to since the article title uses the word "liberal" pejoratively and that means only one thing - totalitarianism!

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/case-of-the-gay-cake-reveals-worrying-double-standards-among-liberals-1.1862130

    To quote Shakespeare, it is "a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing".


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    robindch wrote: »
    Case of the ‘gay cake’ reveals worrying double standards among liberalsDon't have time to read this, nor so I want to since the article title uses the word "liberal" pejoratively and that means only one thing - totalitarianism!http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/case-of-the-gay-cake-reveals-worrying-double-standards-among-liberals-1.1862130
    Not a bad piece; they pretty much stuck to the straightforward facts, and I think the feminist collective fondant foetuses example is quite illustrative.


  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Good article, pity you wrote it off because of the headline. I think it's a nail on the head job.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    Good article, pity you wrote it off because of the headline. I think it's a nail on the head job.

    The article reads more like the advice Homer Simspon once gave to his children: "If its hard to do, then its not worth doing". It is simply saying that because there are bigots out there, and that it is very hard to change their minds or get them to at least act appropriately, then we should defer to their wishes and let them continue to show their bigotry and small-mindedness in public.

    As I said "a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."


  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The article reads more like the advice Homer Simspon once gave to his children: "If its hard to do, then its not worth doing". It is simply saying that because there are bigots out there, and that it is very hard to change their minds or get them to at least act appropriately, then we should defer to their wishes and let them continue to show their bigotry and small-mindedness in public.

    As I said "a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

    I'm afraid I just can't agree with that analogy whatsoever. Nor believe that's even close to a fair description.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    The article reads more like the advice Homer Simspon once gave to his children: "If its hard to do, then its not worth doing". It is simply saying that because there are bigots out there, and that it is very hard to change their minds or get them to at least act appropriately, then we should defer to their wishes and let them continue to show their bigotry and small-mindedness in public. As I said "a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."
    I think you may have missed some of the points in the article then?
    For instance
    "it does raise some interesting questions about whether individuals, businesses or institutions can be – or should be – compelled to accept prevailing liberal ideals"
    and
    "how would it advance the cause of equality to force these unrepentant bakers to renounce their own beliefs, get out the pink piping bag and, through gritted teeth, squirt out the words “Support Gay Marriage”?"
    maybe you skipped
    "Open-minded, right-thinking people have decided that gay marriage is good, therefore it is entirely legitimate to use all kinds of punitive strategies to silence those who can’t quite get their heads around the notion. As the sanctimonious saying goes, we are intolerant of intolerance."
    the last paragraph would seem quite salient?
    "Seeking to compel others to conform to approved cultural values is a totalitarian impulse. And it derives from a smug, corpulent complacency that assumes the right to have your cake, whatever the chosen topping, and eat it."
    Perhaps Blake will serve you better than the Bard in this; "A fool sees not the same tree that a wise man sees."


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    As much as I hate religion I don't really see this case, if there is one, being successful. On the face of it, the objection was to a particular slogan. There is no indication that the baking of the cake was refused because the customer was gay. Unless there is some evidence that we are not aware of that the reason for the refusal was that the customer was gay, I can't see any case being successful.

    Personally, I think there is a fairly good chance the underlying reason for the refusal is that the customer was gay. Having lived in NI for 27 years I am well aware of the bigotry there. But regardless of that, it is not what you know or what you suspect, but what you can prove. All we know is that the bakers refused to bake a cake based on what was requested, and I thin that is something they should be able to do.

    Clearly this is not ideal, as a business owner if likely to come to the conclusion a customer is gay if they ask for a gay related cake, but sometimes the law does not fit every scenario.

    It is possible that there is a chance of success on a kind of indirect discrimination. This is something you see in employment law, and I am not sure if it would work here... It goes something like this, the baker would refuse to make that cake irrespective of the sexuality of the person trying to order it. If a straight person tried to order it they would be refused as well. Now, whilst there might be an assumption on the part of the baker that the customer was gay, this would be difficult to show and I think the court is likely to say there is no provable direct discrimination.

    Now, if you consider that persons trying to order a cakes support SSM are most likely to be gay, then by refusing to make such a cake you are indirectly discriminating against them. This would be similar to having a company-wide ban on flexible working, apply to male and female workers. This would have a disproportionally negative effect on female workers as they are more likely to be mother and therefore more likely to need flexible working hours. If this kind of indirect discrimination were applied to this type of scenario, then it is possible that it could be found there was discrimination.

    Even then, it still might not work. Direct discrimination is not justifiable, but indirect is. Freedom to practice their religion may be sufficient justification.

    Tricky one.

    MrP


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