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Which discrimination should trump which discrimination?

1356

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 807 ✭✭✭Vivisectus


    Absolam wrote: »
    You'll need two people and two calls though; one gay and one straight. If they refuse to make the cake for both they're not discriminating against gay people. If they only refuse to make the cake for the gay caller, they're discriminating against gay people (and psychic). If they only refuse to make the cake for the straight caller, they're just pissed off with people ringing up to annoy them. Or confused.

    If that is the case, then it is not discrimination against christians to ban printing the bible, as long as atheists and christians are both banned from doing so.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 133 ✭✭mrsweebri


    They should be free to refuse to print the slogan. I should be free to boycott the bakery.


  • Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Zane Crooked Iron


    Get Real wrote: »
    At no point do religious/ political views enter it. A couple wanted a cake
    An activist wanted a political cake with a logo on it

    The couple were denied this cake on the basis of their sexuality.
    What couple are you talking about?
    Both are entitled to have their beliefs and voice them, but not when it enters a business transaction and someone is denied a service because of their sexuality.
    We don't know the sexuality of the activist


  • Registered Users Posts: 807 ✭✭✭Vivisectus


    mrsweebri wrote: »
    They should be free to refuse to print the slogan. I should be free to boycott the bakery.

    How about the school your kids go through: should they be allowed to refuse to enroll your kids next year based on their religion? You can always boycott them, right?


  • Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Zane Crooked Iron


    Vivisectus wrote: »
    How about the school your kids go through: should they be allowed to refuse to enroll your kids next year based on their religion? You can always boycott them, right?

    This happens already


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 133 ✭✭mrsweebri


    Vivisectus wrote: »
    How about the school your kids go through: should they be allowed to refuse to enroll your kids next year based on their religion? You can always boycott them, right?

    I already have vivisectus. Educate together ftw.

    (Edited to add: I boycott Catholic school not because they refuse to enrol my children, but because they refuse to teach with an inclusive ethos - a closer comparison to the cake shop situation than the scenario you suggested).


  • Registered Users Posts: 807 ✭✭✭Vivisectus


    bluewolf wrote: »
    This happens already

    too bloody true.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    Vivisectus wrote: »
    No, not qualifiers per se. I do not really limit freedom of speech, I just point out that there is also the freedom to not be harassed, or otherwise hampered. So in some cases we may have to limit the venues or ways in which some speech can be uttered so we are not unnecessarily bothering people either. For instance, you would not necessarily have a Jim Jefferies show in a pre-school.


    What's wrong with Jim Jeffries having free speech in your society? Is not the idea of free speech that he can say what he likes, where he likes, when he likes? I'm about to go downtown in a minute and I'm guaranteed to hear stuff come out of the mouths of children that would make Jim Jeffries blush, and that's only what they say to their parents!

    "Out of the mouths of babes" as they say.

    That is not the point I was making, nor does it follow from the point that I was making. At all. Nor do you show why or how my line of reasoning would lead to this, at all. You just seem to have jumped to that conclusion from a standing start.


    No different than the leaps you're making that would give Shergar a run for his money.

    Well done! You have followed some other posters in this thread and have happily compared even the very mention of homosexuality to profanity or pornography.


    Profanity and pornography? Do you have issues with the human body? I love breasts, I also love penises, in fact I'm very attached to mine and there's nothing profane or pornographic about it, so I don't know how you made that leap in association when I request a penis cake to celebrate my attachment to my penis. I think it deserves a cake of it's own!

    Next time any critic of religion automatically mentions child abuse, you will have no reason to complain.


    I don't. That shìt got old decades ago. You hear it enough times, you eventually become immune to it. Maybe your free speech idea might not be such a bad idea after all - help separate the numpties from the people actually worth listening to?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Get Real wrote: »
    A gay couple should have every right to get whatever kind of cake they want, the same as if I want to order an adult themed/ shaped cake etc or a novelty cake, or a kids cake.
    But should they have the right to compel someone else to make the cake for them just because they are gay? I don't think so. Just as you don't have the right to compel a baker to make you a penis cake or Wiggles cake just because you want it; if the baker has an aversion to making it they cannot (and should not) be compelled to do so.
    Get Real wrote: »
    The baker would have been paid for this cake and for their work. At no point do religious/ political views enter it. A couple wanted a cake, and went to a suitable baker who does this type of work and cash would have been paid.
    Surely it's a given that a person should be paid for work they undertake? But it hardly means they must undertake any work someone offers to pay for? If so there's a few people I don't like and a couple of unpleasant jobs I need doing.....
    Get Real wrote: »
    The couple were denied this cake on the basis of their sexuality.
    That's just not so. They were denied this cake on the basis of the cake they wanted. The owners never said they wouldn't make them any cake, just they wouldn't make the cake they wanted.
    Get Real wrote: »
    Both are entitled to have their beliefs and voice them, but not when it enters a business transaction and someone is denied a service because of their sexuality.
    So, if I'm gay and I offer to pay you to clean the toilets in my slum apartment block, are you obliged to provide the service? Or are you entitled to decide whether you want to perform that service for that price regardless of my sexuality?
    Get Real wrote: »
    The baker has a right to religion. He has a responsibility to respect others opinions and not incite hatred. Therefore he has failed to adhere to his responsibilities associated with his right.
    Exactly how does not baking a cake incite hatred? I can see how pillorying someone in their local community because they're accused of being homophobic would incite hatred though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 807 ✭✭✭Vivisectus


    mrsweebri wrote: »
    I already have vivisectus. Educate together ftw.

    (Edited to add: I boycott Catholic school not because they refuse to enrol my children, but because they refuse to teach with an inclusive ethos - a closer comparison to the cake shop situation than the scenario you suggested).

    I see your point. I am still worried about the opportunity for exclusion that this brings with it - the whole voting with your wallet/ feet proposition does not always work (look at how tough it can be to find a decent educate together within reasonable commuting range, for a start, or the semi-official segregation in the southern US that lasted well past the end of segretation laws and had a profound impact on black people in the region) and because of this I still think it is not OK for a business to refuse service in cases like this, and that cases like this need to be brought. Perhaps not in a rather ambiguous and trivial case like this, however: they do not seem to have chosen their battle wisely.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 807 ✭✭✭Vivisectus


    What's wrong with Jim Jeffries having free speech in your society?

    Nothing at all. Nor was that my point.
    Is not the idea of free speech that he can say what he likes, where he likes, when he likes?

    I already covered this. read my last posts on the subject.
    I'm about to go downtown in a minute and I'm guaranteed to hear stuff come out of the mouths of children that would make Jim Jeffries blush, and that's only what they say to their parents!

    The point being?
    No different than the leaps you're making that would give Shergar a run for his money.

    Please substantiate how and where I made such a leap.
    Profanity and pornography? Do you have issues with the human body? I love breasts, I also love penises, in fact I'm very attached to mine and there's nothing profane or pornographic about it, so I don't know how you made that leap in association when I request a penis cake to celebrate my attachment to my penis. I think it deserves a cake of it's own!

    You made that one when you recommended I order a penis cake from a jewish bakery as if that is the same thing as asking a christian bakery to print the logo and slogan of a gay rights organisation: the buffoonery is yours, not mine.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Case of the ‘gay cake’ reveals worrying double standards among liberals

    Don't have time to read this, nor so I want to since the article title uses the word "liberal" pejoratively and that means only one thing - totalitarianism!

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/case-of-the-gay-cake-reveals-worrying-double-standards-among-liberals-1.1862130
    Muppets. That seemed to be the prevailing view of the Northern bakery which refused to make a cake with a picture of Bert and Ernie, the tousle-headed Sesame Street twosome on top, and the accompanying slogan, “Support Gay Marriage”. Public opinion was largely on the side of the gay rights activist who tried to order the cake, and the Equality Commission of Northern Ireland, which sent the Christian-run bakery, Ashers, a letter threatening them with possible legal action for discriminating against a customer on the grounds of his sexual orientation.

    Ashers themselves were mostly on their own, apart from the Christian Institute, and various members of the DUP, who popped up to defend the rights of God-fearing Ulster pâtissiers to decorate their cakes entirely in accordance with their own beliefs. The fact that the Equality Commission is a state agency of the devolved government at Stormont, which has voted repeatedly against gay marriage, added a particularly piquant tang to the whole thing. Cakes endorsing gay marriage must, by law, be made if requested, but gay marriage itself is prohibited.

    It is, admittedly, an absurd situation. The top of an iced gateau is a strange battleground for the latest skirmish between religious traditionalists and marriage equality campaigners to take place. But it does raise some interesting questions about whether individuals, businesses or institutions can be – or should be – compelled to accept prevailing liberal ideals. Of course, there’s no doubt whatsoever that discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation, or any other perceived difference of race or sex or (dis)ability or whatever, is wrong. That should go without saying.

    Refusing to serve a customer because he or she is gay is self-evidently discriminatory and is rightly a prosecutable offence. Refusing to write a political slogan, requested by that customer, is an entirely different matter. Surely no company is under any obligation to facilitate the dissemination of beliefs that are antithetical to the ethos of that business. Are they? And anyway, how would it advance the cause of equality to force these unrepentant bakers to renounce their own beliefs, get out the pink piping bag and, through gritted teeth, squirt out the words “Support Gay Marriage”?

    By that logic, you’re neither promoting tolerance and goodwill towards all, nor leading blinkered bigots towards the path of secular enlightenment, merely turning people into hypocrites compelled by the state to endorse a campaign they cannot condone. Their original convictions remain intact, and indeed perhaps are strengthened, but they know to keep quiet about them now. Who wins? Take a different scenario. Say a feminist collective set up its own bakery: should it be forced to make cakes for pro-life celebrations, complete with sweet little fondant foetuses? Of course not, they’d be quite within their rights to tell the anti-abortionists to take their creepy order elsewhere.

    The idea seems to be that the Christian bakers are the people being unreasonable here. Intolerant. Illiberal. Forcibly imposing their views on others, to the detriment of society as a whole. But it seems obvious that these epithets could, with more justification in this instance, be applied to their opponents. Open-minded, right-thinking people have decided that gay marriage is good, therefore it is entirely legitimate to use all kinds of punitive strategies to silence those who can’t quite get their heads around the notion. As the sanctimonious saying goes, we are intolerant of intolerance.
    Or are we just intolerant?

    I am strongly in favour of marriage equality myself, and have no truck with the crackpot beliefs of religious fundamentalists, but I feel queasy when I see so-called liberals adopting the crude, absolutist and authoritarian moves of their traditional opponents, seeking to extinguish views they find unacceptable. True, you could hardly argue that conservative Christians are a persecuted minority in the North. Essentially, they run the place, subjecting the populace at large to a range of repressive restrictions, from when you can finish up your drink in the pub (early), to whether you can donate blood if you’re gay (no thanks) or marry your same-sex partner (sod off, sodomites).

    They are dug well in for the long haul, and show every sign of being virtually un-extinguishable. So perhaps it’s not surprising that local activists feel tempted to try such small-minded resistance tactics. But the practice of selective tolerance and liberal double standards extends much wider – right around the world, in fact – and with far less excuse. Seeking to compel others to conform to approved cultural values is a totalitarian impulse. And it derives from a smug, corpulent complacency that assumes the right to have your cake, whatever the chosen topping, and eat it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    robindch wrote: »
    Case of the ‘gay cake’ reveals worrying double standards among liberals

    Don't have time to read this, nor so I want to since the article title uses the word "liberal" pejoratively and that means only one thing - totalitarianism!

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/case-of-the-gay-cake-reveals-worrying-double-standards-among-liberals-1.1862130


    Ahh here, rob I think you should've taken time to read the piece beyond your knee-jerk reaction to the attention grabbing headline alone. I don't think it's suggesting what you think it's suggesting, but it does make an interesting argument.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    robindch wrote: »
    Case of the ‘gay cake’ reveals worrying double standards among liberals

    Don't have time to read this, nor so I want to since the article title uses the word "liberal" pejoratively and that means only one thing - totalitarianism!

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/case-of-the-gay-cake-reveals-worrying-double-standards-among-liberals-1.1862130

    To quote Shakespeare, it is "a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing".


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    robindch wrote: »
    Case of the ‘gay cake’ reveals worrying double standards among liberalsDon't have time to read this, nor so I want to since the article title uses the word "liberal" pejoratively and that means only one thing - totalitarianism!http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/case-of-the-gay-cake-reveals-worrying-double-standards-among-liberals-1.1862130
    Not a bad piece; they pretty much stuck to the straightforward facts, and I think the feminist collective fondant foetuses example is quite illustrative.


  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Paloma Elegant Giant


    Good article, pity you wrote it off because of the headline. I think it's a nail on the head job.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    Good article, pity you wrote it off because of the headline. I think it's a nail on the head job.

    The article reads more like the advice Homer Simspon once gave to his children: "If its hard to do, then its not worth doing". It is simply saying that because there are bigots out there, and that it is very hard to change their minds or get them to at least act appropriately, then we should defer to their wishes and let them continue to show their bigotry and small-mindedness in public.

    As I said "a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."


  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Paloma Elegant Giant


    The article reads more like the advice Homer Simspon once gave to his children: "If its hard to do, then its not worth doing". It is simply saying that because there are bigots out there, and that it is very hard to change their minds or get them to at least act appropriately, then we should defer to their wishes and let them continue to show their bigotry and small-mindedness in public.

    As I said "a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

    I'm afraid I just can't agree with that analogy whatsoever. Nor believe that's even close to a fair description.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    The article reads more like the advice Homer Simspon once gave to his children: "If its hard to do, then its not worth doing". It is simply saying that because there are bigots out there, and that it is very hard to change their minds or get them to at least act appropriately, then we should defer to their wishes and let them continue to show their bigotry and small-mindedness in public. As I said "a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."
    I think you may have missed some of the points in the article then?
    For instance
    "it does raise some interesting questions about whether individuals, businesses or institutions can be – or should be – compelled to accept prevailing liberal ideals"
    and
    "how would it advance the cause of equality to force these unrepentant bakers to renounce their own beliefs, get out the pink piping bag and, through gritted teeth, squirt out the words “Support Gay Marriage”?"
    maybe you skipped
    "Open-minded, right-thinking people have decided that gay marriage is good, therefore it is entirely legitimate to use all kinds of punitive strategies to silence those who can’t quite get their heads around the notion. As the sanctimonious saying goes, we are intolerant of intolerance."
    the last paragraph would seem quite salient?
    "Seeking to compel others to conform to approved cultural values is a totalitarian impulse. And it derives from a smug, corpulent complacency that assumes the right to have your cake, whatever the chosen topping, and eat it."
    Perhaps Blake will serve you better than the Bard in this; "A fool sees not the same tree that a wise man sees."


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    As much as I hate religion I don't really see this case, if there is one, being successful. On the face of it, the objection was to a particular slogan. There is no indication that the baking of the cake was refused because the customer was gay. Unless there is some evidence that we are not aware of that the reason for the refusal was that the customer was gay, I can't see any case being successful.

    Personally, I think there is a fairly good chance the underlying reason for the refusal is that the customer was gay. Having lived in NI for 27 years I am well aware of the bigotry there. But regardless of that, it is not what you know or what you suspect, but what you can prove. All we know is that the bakers refused to bake a cake based on what was requested, and I thin that is something they should be able to do.

    Clearly this is not ideal, as a business owner if likely to come to the conclusion a customer is gay if they ask for a gay related cake, but sometimes the law does not fit every scenario.

    It is possible that there is a chance of success on a kind of indirect discrimination. This is something you see in employment law, and I am not sure if it would work here... It goes something like this, the baker would refuse to make that cake irrespective of the sexuality of the person trying to order it. If a straight person tried to order it they would be refused as well. Now, whilst there might be an assumption on the part of the baker that the customer was gay, this would be difficult to show and I think the court is likely to say there is no provable direct discrimination.

    Now, if you consider that persons trying to order a cakes support SSM are most likely to be gay, then by refusing to make such a cake you are indirectly discriminating against them. This would be similar to having a company-wide ban on flexible working, apply to male and female workers. This would have a disproportionally negative effect on female workers as they are more likely to be mother and therefore more likely to need flexible working hours. If this kind of indirect discrimination were applied to this type of scenario, then it is possible that it could be found there was discrimination.

    Even then, it still might not work. Direct discrimination is not justifiable, but indirect is. Freedom to practice their religion may be sufficient justification.

    Tricky one.

    MrP


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    ShooterSF wrote: »
    Not that I'm siding with the cake maker (plus I'd like to see more details on the case) but hypothetically speaking couldn't a situation where a baker is asked to make a cake with the slogan "Anyone who has gay sex should be killed" and refuses risk the same treatment?
    Yesterday, the Court of Appeal in Belfast upheld a judgment that cake-maker Asher had discriminated against on the grounds of sexual orientation:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/oct/24/born-again-christian-ashers-bakery-lose-court-appeal-in-gay-cake-row

    The Daily Mash and News Thump weren't long in showing up to the party:

    http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/gay-cake-converted-entire-tray-of-bread-rolls-to-homosexuality-2015052098454
    http://newsthump.com/2016/10/24/gay-baker-sued-after-refusing-to-make-angel-cake-for-christian-couple/


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    I won't be eating any baps for a while :D

    I see the baker is going to appeal..
    Following the judgment, Daniel McArthur, flanked by his wife Amy, said: “This ruling undermines democratic freedom, religious freedom and freedom of speech.”
    Wells said an appeal would be mounted against the ruling at the supreme court in London.
    Mc Arthur missed a golden opportunity there, to quip "I'll be back" at the end of his soundbyte.

    Anyway, the judge's reasoning is interesting;
    On Ashers’ stance regarding the cake, Morgan said: “The supplier may provide the particular service to all or to none but not to a selection of customers based on prohibited grounds. In the present case the appellants might elect not to provide a service that involves any religious or political message. What they may not do is provide a service that only reflects their own political or religious message in relation to sexual orientation.
    McArthur the baker could argue that he does not do any controversial or illegal messages on cakes, for anybody. As SSM is currently illegal in NI, that helps him. It would be hard to disprove this, unless somebody can produce an uneaten Ashers cake bearing a controversial message.
    But instead, he has argued that he only does cakes with messages he agrees with, regardless of the sexual orientation of the customers. That was not a good enough argument, apparently.

    Reading between the lines, the judge might even be saying McArthur was badly advised and used the wrong legal defence. He criticised the equality officers there for not providing McArthur with advice.

    Ah well, that's what happens when you let bible bashers provide you with free legal services.
    McArthur said he was very surprised by the watchdog's letter and had asked the Christian Institute, an evangelical pressure group, for advice. The institute supports the bakery's stance and is providing legal assistance.
    source


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,541 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    recedite wrote: »
    Anyway, the judge's reasoning is interesting; McArthur the baker could argue that he does not do any controversial or illegal messages on cakes, for anybody. As SSM is currently illegal in NI, that helps him.

    A message supporting change in the law is not the same thing as a message encouraging people to break the law. This has already been discussed on the thread. In a democracy, the latter may be illegal but the former can never be (unless what you're asking for is something like a law to ban Mexicans and muslims from your country, then perhaps...)

    Scrap the cap!



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    .. the former can never be (unless what you're asking for is something like a law to ban Mexicans and muslims from your country, then perhaps...)
    As I said, its easier to just steer clear of anything controversial or "possibly" illegal. That policy was open to the baker, and still is.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,689 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Regardless of how the law is at the moment I wouldn't support a particular religious objection however secular baker and a hard line religious person comes in wanting a cake with anti Jewish sentiments on it or pro religious extremist position and its only right that a small business owner has some control over their work. there seems to be a permission to be a d1ck built into the current arrangement. Mohammed cake? , gay Mohammed cake? Jewish baker and Hitler birthday cake?

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    silverharp wrote: »
    Mohammed cake? , gay Mohammed cake? Jewish baker and Hitler birthday cake?
    Basically, you could refuse all these. Also all pro SSM cakes and all anti SSM cakes. But you can't necessarily pick and choose according to your own preferences or convictions.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,689 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    recedite wrote: »
    Basically, you could refuse all these. Also all pro SSM cakes and all anti SSM cakes. But you can't necessarily pick and choose according to your own preferences or convictions.

    I don't get what you mean by "pick and choose"? I don't think individual staff should have the right, they sell whatever the employer sells, but the employer should have the right to choose based on whatever floats their boat

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    silverharp wrote: »
    I don't get what you mean by "pick and choose"?
    Mc Arthur here wanted to refuse a SSM cake based on his own convictions. But he had no general policy to refuse political/religious messages. So he wanted to be free to make cakes with political/religious messages he agreed with (or at least that's the precedent his bible bashing lawyers were trying to set). That was his downfall here.

    As it turned out, it didn't really matter whether the client asking for the cake was gay or not. Mc Arthur thought he would be within the law because he didn't ask about that individual's sexuality, but it was the message itself that counted in this case.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,689 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    recedite wrote: »
    Mc Arthur here wanted to refuse a SSM cake based on his own convictions. But he had no general policy to refuse political/religious messages. So he wanted to be free to make cakes with political/religious messages he agreed with (or at least that's the precedent his bible bashing lawyers were trying to set). That was his downfall here.

    As it turned out, it didn't really matter whether the client asking for the cake was gay or not. Mc Arthur thought he would be within the law because he didn't ask about that individual's sexuality, but it was the message itself that counted in this case.

    ok but leaving the law aside he should have that right. going forward it doesnt really matter, slogans on cakes are not really a thing, better have a policy to not make them so as to not to be set up
    but take another business like a printer, if you dont want to print some political party's literature or some cause you might personally find offensive (which you might not even be aware of ahead of time) the owner should be allowed have full discretion , here a printer saying he wont print political stuff might hurt his business

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    silverharp wrote: »
    slogans on cakes are not really a thing, better have a policy to not make them so as to not to be set up.
    Yes, avoiding contentious slogans is the best policy for bakers for now. And it does look as if this baker was deliberately set up alright, although that has not been proven or even alleged AFAIK.
    ..but take another business like a printer, if you dont want to print some political party's literature or some cause you might personally find offensive (which you might not even be aware of ahead of time) the owner should be allowed have full discretion, here a printer saying he wont print political stuff might hurt his business
    I think that is most peoples opinion, and indeed that was the general consensus on this thread about how this case would play out. We thought the baker would only be done for discrimination if it could be shown that he was discriminating against the customer personally. But we were wrong, apparently. It was deemed to be discrimination due to the nature of the slogan the customer was asking for.

    I'm inclined to think it was a bad decision because
    (a) discrimination happens when a person is treated differently because of their personal characteristics or religious beliefs, and the sexual orientation of the customer was never really discussed, it was only inferred by the slogan, which I don't think is a fair or reliable inference.
    (b) It was reported that the judge suggested McArthur "might elect not to provide a service that involves any religious or political message" but AFAIK political persuasion is not a protected characteristic under the law, though religious persuasion would be. Maybe he was just offering friendly advice, but it seems wrong or misleading if it was part of a judgement.

    BTW McArthur did say they would appeal to a London court, so maybe its not over yet.


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,232 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i'm inclined to disagree with the ruling too.
    if i went in to a bakers asking for a cake with a 'your mother sucks cocks in hell' message, i would not get very far in many bakers. it's easy to think of many cake toppings which would not be illegal, but which a baker should reasonably be able to refuse to provide.

    i've heard claims - though not substantiated yet - that the customer in question had frequented ashers before this incident; any know if this is true? even with that, that would not necessarily prove they knew anything about the customer's sexual orientation.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,541 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    i'm inclined to disagree with the ruling too.
    if i went in to a bakers asking for a cake with a 'your mother sucks cocks in hell' message, i would not get very far in many bakers. it's easy to think of many cake toppings which would not be illegal, but which a baker should reasonably be able to refuse to provide.

    Nothing in this case about being forced to provide an illegal or obscene message.

    Scrap the cap!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,689 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    recedite wrote: »
    I'm inclined to think it was a bad decision because
    (a) discrimination happens when a person is treated differently because of their personal characteristics or religious beliefs, and the sexual orientation of the customer was never really discussed, it was only inferred by the slogan, which I don't think is a fair or reliable inference.
    (b) It was reported that the judge suggested McArthur "might elect not to provide a service that involves any religious or political message" but AFAIK political persuasion is not a protected characteristic under the law, though religious persuasion would be. Maybe he was just offering friendly advice, but it seems wrong or misleading if it was part of a judgement.

    BTW McArthur did say they would appeal to a London court, so maybe its not over yet.

    its easy enough to switch it around and have a religious customer and an atheist business owner or any variant off and you have potential problems. I hope they do appeal and get the law back to only selling "off the shelf" stuff and services and leave bespoke services to the discretion of the owner. the court of Yelp will balance everything else and not clog the courts with pointless cases.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Paloma Elegant Giant


    Considering this ruling - What kind of messages is the proprietor not entitled to refuse to print from now on?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,689 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Considering this ruling - What kind of messages is the proprietor not entitled to refuse to print from now on?

    maybe this? , Muslim street preacher wants thousands of leaflets printed up on the benefits on Sharia law and the evils of the west and Israel. I'd like the freedom be able to say on yer bike son. ?

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Considering this ruling - What kind of messages is the proprietor not entitled to refuse to print from now on?
    I presume he can only refuse hate speech, promotion of illegal activities, and anything untrue or libelous. Its a bit much to expect a busy baker to sort out one from the other though.

    The other alternative is he puts up a sign to say his policy is to refuse all political, religious and potentially controversial slogans. But then he can't do any pro-Christian slogans for his mates.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    OT: Not sure that this hasn't been pointed out yet but anyone notice the thread title contains the words "Trump" and "Discrimination"? :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭learn_more


    Considering this ruling - What kind of messages is the proprietor not entitled to refuse to print from now on?

    I don't think the message was personally offensive or hateful to the proprietor.

    Opinions are just opinions. I'm not insulted if someone disagrees with my opinion. I think a religious belief is just an opinion. I know it's more than that for the believer but I think in law religious beliefs should be treated exactly the same as any other opinion and should not be elevated to some higher status.

    I think Ashers believe that 'Religious beliefs' should have some special status in law. And that is why I'm sure that they are going to take this case further.

    To answer the question @emmet asked, the better question is what messages are they entitled to refuse. I would say it's only ones they are personally offended by and ones that are restricted in law.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    learn_more wrote: »
    To answer the question @emmet asked, the better question is what messages are they entitled to refuse. I would say it's only ones they are personally offended by and ones that are restricted in law.
    Only the latter. He was in court because he refused the former; a slogan that he personally disagreed with.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,541 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Disagreed with, yes.
    More than a bit of a stretch if he's claiming he was offended by the actual words "Support Gay Marriage", however much he may disagree with the legalisation of same.

    Scrap the cap!



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  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Paloma Elegant Giant


    learn_more wrote: »
    To answer the question @emmet asked, the better question is what messages are they entitled to refuse. I would say it's only ones they are personally offended by and ones that are restricted in law.

    Of course you're right, I double negatived myself :(.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Its not about disagreeing with, or being offended by the customers. Neither is allowed. Its about whether discrimination is being applied in dealings with the customers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding



    i've heard claims - though not substantiated yet - that the customer in question had frequented ashers before this incident; any know if this is true? even with that, that would not necessarily prove they knew anything about the customer's sexual orientation.
    I remember reading in the reports way back when this first broke, the Gareth Lee was a regular customer.

    MrP


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    MrPudding wrote: »
    I remember reading in the reports way back when this first broke, the Gareth Lee was a regular customer.

    MrP

    I recall that too, though I can't find it now. But whilst the original Judge spent some time pointing out that the bakers must have or should have known his sexual orientation, the Appeals Judges felt the finding of discrimination did not rely on this; the fact that the benefit of the message accrued entirely to gay people as a class they said meant that simply not producing the message itself was illegally discriminatory.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Absolam wrote: »
    ... the Appeals Judges felt the finding of discrimination did not rely on this; the fact that the benefit of the message accrued entirely to gay people as a class they said meant that simply not producing the message itself was illegally discriminatory.
    A fair asessment I think.
    IMO the judge has crossed the boundary of "protecting minority rights" and strayed into "political correctness gone mad" territory.
    But everyone will have their own opinion on where that boundary lies.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭Arcade_Tryer


    recedite wrote: »
    A fair asessment I think.
    IMO the judge has crossed the boundary of "protecting minority rights" and strayed into "political correctness gone mad" territory.
    But everyone will have their own opinion on where that boundary lies.
    Essentially what they have done is erode the fundamental rights of free expression and speech (which were designed especially to protect minorities) in an effort to appear to protect minorities. Thus eroding the rights of minorities. The stupidity on show is simply mind boggling. More evidence to support my belief that legal "experts" are nothing more than glorified rote learners and spelling champions. An embarrassing decision.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 646 ✭✭✭seanaway


    Enough of the politically 'correct' going into the judiciary. Time citizens got our democracy back.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,232 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    that post can be easily cariacatured as 'we've had enough experts defining our law, what we need is more pitchforks at dawn'.

    you'll need to define more cleary what is wrong with the system, and what 'citizens' means.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    The case of alleged discrimination by Ashers' Bakery has reached the UK's Supreme Cour - moves on this are expected today:

    https://www.ft.com/content/962f54b0-4b8c-11e8-8a8e-22951a2d8493
    FT wrote:
    The UK’s highest court will convene in Belfast this week to make a landmark decision in a case involving a bakery in Northern Ireland that refused to ice a cake with the slogan “Support Gay Marriage”. The Christian owners of Ashers Bakery are asking five Supreme Court justices to overturn earlier rulings that they breached equality laws by refusing to make the cake for Gareth Lee, a member of QueerSpace, an LGBT advocacy group in Northern Ireland.

    The case has attracted huge public interest and highlights the deep cultural divisions in Northern Ireland, the only part of the UK where gay marriage is not legal. In earlier court appeals, senior politicians from Northern Ireland’s socially conservative Democratic Unionist party have voiced their support for the bakery.

    In May 2014, Mr Lee placed an order with Ashers for a cake with the slogan “Support Gay Marriage” and the Sesame Street characters Bert and Ernie. The bakery initially accepted the order but later cancelled it and refunded Mr Lee. Colin and Karen McArthur, the co-owners of Ashers, oppose the introduction of same-sex marriage. Mrs McArthur has said she was unable to complete the order because the slogan went against the family’s Christian beliefs. Backed by the Northern Ireland Equality Commission, Mr Lee sued the Ashers for discrimination under the Equality Act.

    In court filings, he said the “blatant refusal of a service” made him “feel like a second-class citizen”. He said it was not right that a “business can choose to serve me depending on its views of my sexual orientation, religion or politics”. Mrs McArthur has said she cancelled the order because of her concerns about the slogan, not Mr Lee’s sexual orientation. Mr Lee has won his case in two lower courts, including the Northern Ireland Court of Appeal, which ruled in October 2016 that there was unlawful direct discrimination by the bakery.

    Declan Morgan, Northern Ireland’s Lord Chief Justice, said at the time: “To prohibit the provision of a message on a cake supportive of gay marriage on the basis of religious belief is to permit direct discrimination. “The fact that a baker provides a cake for a particular team or portrays witches on a Halloween cake does not indicate any support for either.” Legal experts expect the Supreme Court to uphold the earlier rulings.

    Nicholas Le Riche, an employment partner at law firm Bircham Dyson Bell, said: “It’s well established that businesses cannot pick and choose who they provide services to based on a customer’s sexual orientation. Religious belief cannot be used as a shield for not serving someone.”

    A similar case is also being considered by the US Supreme Court.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Declan Morgan, Northern Ireland’s Lord Chief Justice, said at the time: “To prohibit the provision of a message on a cake supportive of gay marriage on the basis of religious belief is to permit direct discrimination. “The fact that a baker provides a cake for a particular team or portrays witches on a Halloween cake does not indicate any support for either.
    Declan touches on an interesting example there. There are some protestant sects that take a very dim view of the whole Halloween festival. Perhaps Ashers would have been the type of bakery to refuse an invitation to bake a cake featuring witches. If Declan cannot understand that, then he fails to grasp the true meaning of discrimination, or indeed the whole concept of minority rights.
    Instead he is enforcing conformity to a particular agenda, which is set by a "liberal" majority, or perhaps an elite who are not even the majority.


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