"Government is dumbing down schools" says former Director of Education

Laguna Loire · 26-06-2011 7:22pm #1

According to a woman who used to work for the United States government, the government officials who operate the United States education system, as well as other education systems, are deliberately dumbing down today's youth. I know that they do this to a certain extent in order to create docile workers, which is what school is basically for, creating a work force. However, I'm not sure it's to the extent that the woman is talking about. What do you guys think?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDyDtYy2I0M

Overheal · 27-06-2011 3:45am

I tried listening to this and I'm still confused. Quite honestly. She could be more succinct I wish.

southsiderosie · 27-06-2011 10:30am

OP, can you summarize the position of the woman in the video?

Mjollnir · 27-06-2011 8:11pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte_Thomson_Iserbyt

The Nuttjobbery Quotient is quite high in this one.

"Iserbyt believes that the Bavarian Illuminati hid inside the Freemasons, and that the Skull and Bones Secret Society is derived from these Illuminati-degree Freemasons from Bavaria whose goals were documented in an original edition 1798 book Proofs of Conspiracy by John Robison in Iserbyt's possession that she claimed was originally owned by the first president of the United States of America, Freemason, George Washington. The ideas of a ruling elite date back prior to Plato's writings about the hierarchical plutocracy. Among the goals of the Order of the Illuminati were to destroy religions, and governments from within, merge the destroyed countries, and to bring about a one world government, a new world order, in their secret control."

Smell the brain gears grinding!

Overheal · 28-06-2011 2:55am

Wha?

I mean, ok, mildly plausible I guess, if you're into that sort of thing. But not exactly political faire.

Black Swan · 28-06-2011 4:52am

MOD COMMENT:
This video-driven OP appears to suggest a conspiracy theory, and may be more appropriately located in the forum that hosts such discussions. It will be locked and moved to the CT forum for review by their mods.

Penn · 28-06-2011 10:45am

Thread re-opened. Please bear in mind that as posts have been made by users who may not frequent this forum, you may not get a response if you ask them any questions.

jackiebaron · 28-06-2011 1:05pm

It's not a new phenomenon but I'd say it began to become official policy in the 60's and post-60's era. People back then could think for themselves as they learned critical thinking skills in school.
Now US schools are churning out "epsilons".

Dude111 · 28-06-2011 1:18pm

Sadly its not just kids they are doing this to!!

ALMOST EVERYONE IS BEING DUMBED DOWN NOT TO FIGHT AGAINST THINGS,ACCEPT GARBAGE,ETC........ ITS QUITE SICKENING AND SAD....

Monty Burnz · 28-06-2011 1:21pm

jackiebaron wrote: »

It's not a new phenomenon but I'd say it began to become official policy in the 60's and post-60's era. People back then could think for themselves as they learned critical thinking skills in school.
Now US schools are churning out "epsilons".

This is probably the outcome of US ideology on education - underfund public schooling, and pay teachers peanuts, so that you'd have to be mad or a saint to teach there.

This is one area where I think that the conservatives/right wing in the US has got things badly wrong. Everyone should have a shot at a good education, regardless of whether your parents are high-achievers or total wasters. If you blow that shot, then it's your own fault - but you should be given it.

If you look at the average standard of education of US citizens, it's piss poor compared to the average of a Western European country. At the very top level (doctoral and post-doctoral level in the top colleges) they are by far the best in the world. Below that, the standards are very, very poor.

Mahatma coat · 28-06-2011 2:34pm

They are allowing calculators in Maths exams for Junior and Leaving cert now.

Also the questions seem a lot easier, anyone see that roof question from this years Mechanical drawing test, Piece of Pish, and I havent done anything like that ina good many years.

Is it that the standards are dropping across the board or were we just cleverer

ed2hands · 28-06-2011 2:56pm

Mahatma coat wrote: »

They are allowing calculators in Maths exams for Junior and Leaving cert now.

Also the questions seem a lot easier, anyone see that roof question from this years Mechanical drawing test, Piece of Pish, and I havent done anything like that ina good many years.

Is it that the standards are dropping across the board or were we just cleverer

Aye standards are definitely dropping IMO. Maybe this years papers are easy though coz of the snow interruptions during term.

I worry for the youth of today in general. The primary and secondary education system is getting worse (if that is possible)...

robtri · 28-06-2011 3:02pm

ed2hands wrote: »

Aye standards are definitely dropping IMO. Maybe this years papers are easy though coz of the snow interruptions during term.

I worry for the youth of today in general. The primary and secondary education system is getting worse (if that is possible)...

what are you basing this on???

ed2hands · 28-06-2011 3:09pm

robtri wrote: »

what are you basing this on???

Anecdotal evidence i read from newspaper articles and also stats i've come across that say reading standards etc are steadily falling. Haven't done any hard research.

The three ???'s tell me your shocked. Are you shocked that thats my opinion?

robtri · 28-06-2011 3:42pm

ed2hands wrote: »

Anecdotal evidence i read from newspaper articles and also stats i've come across that say reading standards etc are steadily falling. Haven't done any hard research.

The three ???'s tell me your shocked. Are you shocked that thats my opinion?

shocked no... curious thats all..

Did i not hear on the news today that our reading and understanding standards are actually quite high......
So I was just wondering what studies you where basing this assumption that the education system is decling...

what newspapers are you reading that you believe are trusted sources??

ed2hands · 28-06-2011 4:20pm

robtri wrote: »

shocked no... curious thats all..

Did i not hear on the news today that our reading and understanding standards are actually quite high......
So I was just wondering what studies you where basing this assumption that the education system is decling...

what newspapers are you reading that you believe are trusted sources??

Oh ok. I haven't seen that article. Would be grateful if you linked it.

The ones i would have read were these among others:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/aug/03/sats-figures-reading-standards-drop
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/reading-and-maths-standards-falling-in-britain-says-oecd-762805.html

Regarding trusting these sources, would use my noggin to judge they're probably accurate in these articles, but wouldn't go recommending them as fully trustworthy on other issues...;)

Mahatma coat · 28-06-2011 7:53pm

I Would take anythin in the Irish papers about our literacy standards as a nation with a pinch of salt, Now I wouldnt be a Grammar Nazi, but, the typos and errors in both the Indo and recently the Times are atrocious, there were a couple of glaring ones in the Indo Yesterday.

overall the standard of writing in this country has declined markedly in the last twenty years.

Mathematical skills are on the decline too.

simple experiment for ya,
Go to shop
Buy groceries
Tot up price in your head
go to checkout
State correct price before the machine Beeps it out
examine dumfounded look on checkout persons face as price you say matches price the machine tells them

seriously folks, the question is not whether Schools are being dumbed down, the question is WHY.

with all ths talk about a 'knowledge based Economy' wouldnt it be a good idea to invest in Knowledge.

ed2hands · 28-06-2011 8:45pm

Why is most certainly the question.

As someone already said, it's true that education has been starved of funding. Don't we know it here in Ireland. Teachers can only do their best with the limited resources and curriculum. It's so ****ed up.

Just as an aside, the teaching of history, not just in Ireland, more so in general terms worldwide, is a thread in itself.
We're definitely going through interesting times at the moment. Can't help wondering how young learners' history books will interpret things going on in the last couple of decades.
This is subjective now, but will Iraq/Afghanistan/Libya go under a chapter called "The War on Terror"? Or maybe it should be called "The Oil Wars"? Or something else?...

Sparticle · 29-06-2011 12:49am

For all you people saying the curriculum is being dumbed down I propose a challenge.

Do the exams.

Mahatma coat wrote: »

They are allowing calculators in Maths exams for Junior and Leaving cert now.

Calculators in class is a sign dumbing down!! By removing menial calculation from the curriculum (EG 14!) more can be examined in less time. Anyone doing the actual course knows you don't even use it for 95% of the course. A lot of it is algebra, differentiation and integration. You can't use a calculator for that! For example maths paper 1 HL 2011.

http://www.examinations.ie/archive/exampapers/2011/LC003ALP100EV.pdf

You cannot use a SEC certified calculator for 99% of that exam.

Are you even familiar with the course?

ed2hands wrote: »

Aye standards are definitely dropping IMO. Maybe this years papers are easy though coz of the snow interruptions during term.

I worry for the youth of today in general. The primary and secondary education system is getting worse (if that is possible)...

Most of the papers are set before the snow. No mercy there.

Education system getting worse!! Damn I miss learning 10 + poems, 5 short stories, and reams of gaelic history catechisms in and about dead language no-one in the real world cares about. The gradual decline of irish and the increase of emphasis on understanding in maths and the sciences rather than rote learning is a bad thing?? If it makes the exams easier for those who actually understand the subject rather than those with good exam technique and cramming ability it's a success in my book.

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Mathematical skills are on the decline too.

simple experiment for ya,
Go to shop
Buy groceries
Tot up price in your head
go to checkout
State correct price before the machine Beeps it out
examine dumfounded look on checkout persons face as price you say matches price the machine tells them

seriously folks, the question is not whether Schools are being dumbed down, the question is WHY.

with all ths talk about a 'knowledge based Economy' wouldnt it be a good idea to invest in Knowledge.

??? Mental addition is almost entirely useless in a "knowledge based economy" where everything involving some form of maths is quadruple checked. Would you trust a person building a bridge who did the calculations for it's weight threshold "in his head". I wager you would not.

Are you basing this "mathematical skills are on the decline" statement on cold hard facts or just personal observation?

The only dumbing down I see in the populace is done by quacks, wanabee theocrats and conspiracy demagogues who throw muck in the face of rationality and drown out real truth about the world with their relentless drone of lies.
This culture is responsible for most of the ignornace and dumbing down in the western world at not the education system. Books like "the secret" are best sellers ffs.

ed2hands · 29-06-2011 1:14am

Sparticle wrote: »

Most of the papers are set before the snow. No mercy there.

Education system getting worse!! Damn I miss learning 10 + poems, 5 short stories, and reams of gaelic history catechisms in and about dead language no-one in the real world cares about. The gradual decline of irish and the increase of emphasis on understanding in maths and the sciences rather than rote learning is a bad thing?? If it makes the exams easier for those who actually understand the subject rather than those with good exam technique and cramming ability it's a success in my book.

Sarcasm and and reference to our "dead language" is all well and good, but are you saying that our education is not getting worse?
I meant this mainly from a funding point of view but yea i was referring to the curriculum aswell in the broad sense. Do you think the Irish curriculum has changed fast enough to be in tune with preparing young adults to deal with modern society? I don't.

Torakx · 29-06-2011 6:08am

I think Sparticle has a point in some respects anyway.
The culture and alot of it spilling over from the west, in itself is a big contributer to this recent (last 50-80 years) slump in society when it comes to informal and self education of youths.
Im guessing this slump can be linked with a chart fairly closely to the date television(and later computers and games) started to become a common thing and then a very popular form of entertainment.As apose to say doing activities or reading books.

The statement on books should be obvious when you consider the evolution of language nowadays and text speech.Can anyone say lol?!! lmao.
Mark my words there will be a time in the future "books" will be written in text speech,if it hasnt happened already.
I have no issue with text speech itself(its efficient but unrefined), as i understand it easily.
I do have issue with it becoming a first language leaving the more eloquent and usefull languages of many countries behind where the layman is concerned.

I think it was monty burns who posted about the gap between the educated people in america at the top levels of different industries and the common people.That was a good post.
Its a pretty good sum up of exactly what i think is going on.

People are being squeezed for more and in the process, those left over with not as much use to be had from suffer, while the big industrial(replace industrial with whatever fits now) machine keeps on going, burning up fuel at an incredible rate.

We arent going to be able to agree on the irish education untill a study has been done and posted i think.
I had a thought though.
Even if they are using calculators now for exams and school to help with subjects.
Maybe its because the maths they are doing now is more complicated than the stuff i would have done in school back then.
Once you can add and subtract,multiply divide and so on.it may be that the real maths is in the equations which represent these other calculations and so the need for a calculator could also be a sign that they are getting smarter in this respect.
An extreme example to make my point.
Alot of people nowadays wouldnt know how to start a fire let alone keep it going.But in the past this was something everyone needed to know how to do.We happen to have gotten smarter,invented technology whch allows us to have all the necessities and more without having to light a fire.
We arent getting more stupid because we need electricity for one.We just happen to take it all for granted.
Much the same with calculators in school i hope!
It could well be we are a closer comparison to America than i ever wish.

jackiebaron · 29-06-2011 9:51am

^^^

as "apose" ?

What the fcuk?

For what it's worth I used a calculator when I did my Leaving Cert Maths Test and that was in 1986. You need a scientific calculator for this test otherwise you're going to spend ages trying to look up something in the log tables and when you want to graph a sinusoidal wave it's easier to calculate Sin π than to be scribbling that sh!t down to get your graph points.

Anyway today's kids are RETARDS!

hooradiation · 29-06-2011 2:07pm

jackiebaron wrote: »

Anyway today's kids are RETARDS!

Undoubtedly the generation before yours had a similarly low opinion of you and your peers at that age.

Mahatma coat · 29-06-2011 2:08pm

??? Mental addition is almost entirely useless in a "knowledge based economy" where everything involving some form of maths is quadruple checked. Would you trust a person building a bridge who did the calculations for it's weight threshold "in his head". I wager you would not.

Are you basing this "mathematical skills are on the decline" statement on cold hard facts or just personal observation?

Yes, I would have much more confidence in an Engineer who could do the calculations in his head, I wouldnt expect him to be 5 decimal; places correct, but if we were standin lookin at a partially completed Bridge and I asked him,

Would it support the VW Transporter at this stage?

I'd lose a lot of respect for him/her if they had to use a Calculator for the answer

ed2hands · 29-06-2011 7:33pm

Sparticle wrote: »

The only dumbing down I see in the populace is done by quacks, wanabee theocrats and conspiracy demagogues who throw muck in the face of rationality and drown out real truth about the world with their relentless drone of lies.
This culture is responsible for most of the ignornace and dumbing down in the western world at not the education system. Books like "the secret" are best sellers ffs.

Ahaha! :pac:

I just re-read this. If you want to get away from education for a minute that's fine with me.
So the only potential dumbing down of the populace according to you lies firmly at the door of "quacks" and conspiracy theorists? Thats a larf and quite convenient for you isn't it?

So you don't think trash TV stations indoctrinating the masses with their 20-second newsbites, cult of celebrity and innane programming and pumping out absolute garbage 24/7 might not have a little bit to do with it then?
Or the rise of the home gaming industry? Or toilet-paper tabloids?
Or what about the Hollywood movie business and it's piss poor violence-soaked rubbish?

You don't think modern pharma/doctors handing out Prozac and Ritalin like sweets might also contribute? Or what about all the corporate blitz of nutrition-free Mcdogburgers in every town and city? Or the rest of our modern foodstuffs drenched with chemicals and pesticides?

No, it's the fault of the conspiracy theorists.:rolleyes:

Monty Burnz · 29-06-2011 7:54pm

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0629/breaking56.html

Declining literacy standards among Irish school-leavers have prompted a leading Dublin university to allocate more time to the teaching of basic writing skills to first-year students.

Dublin City University’s BA in Journalism programme is to place greater emphasis on writing skills to help students overcome what the college has described as “gaps in their grasp of basic English, including spelling, grammar, punctuation and word usage”.

The college said lecturers had noticed growing numbers of students were having difficulties.

From next autumn, the time spent on the course module covering English language usage will increase by 50 per cent in an attempt to address the issue. Patrick Kinsella, head of the School of Communications at DCU, said lecturers were spending an inordinate amount of time correcting errors and improving the basic writing skills of students.
“CAO applicants for DCU journalism must have a B in Honours English in the Leaving Certificate. Points for journalism rose last year to 445, so we’re still getting very bright, creative and able students,” Mr Kinsella said.

“But despite their great exam results, many students still have significant weaknesses when it comes to the basics. Punctuation and spelling are problematic for some, while others have gaps in their application of grammar or use words wrongly,” he said.

Mr Kinsella, who is also chairman of the BA in Journalism programme, said an increase in the tuition hours devoted to writing skills was vital if graduates were to meet the “high standards of the journalism profession”.

What percentage of students get 445 points and over these days? Would it even be 15% of school leavers (as opposed to those who sit the Leaving Cert)? And yet, these aspiring journalists' standards of literacy are so poor that they are having to devote time to teaching them basic rules they should have acquired in primary school.

This type of thing, plus the inability of firms to hire enough maths-literate graduates, is pretty good anecdotal evidence that we've seen large-scale grade inflation and a general lowering of standards in many areas in the last few decades.

Naikon · 01-07-2011 12:39am

Monty Burnz wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0629/breaking56.html

What percentage of students get 445 points and over these days? Would it even be 15% of school leavers (as opposed to those who sit the Leaving Cert)? And yet, these aspiring journalists' standards of literacy are so poor that they are having to devote time to teaching them basic rules they should have acquired in primary school.

This type of thing, plus the inability of firms to hire enough maths-literate graduates, is pretty good anecdotal evidence that we've seen large-scale grade inflation and a general lowering of standards in many areas in the last few decades.

Jaysus, I am actually shocked at this. The problem is that teachers tend to focus only what comes up on the test. I remember being scorned for suggesting an alternative method of solving a maths problem simply because it was not on the sylabus. Kids don't want to learn, they want the grades. Sure I knew many people learning off by heart the same essay for Honours English. Potential breach of copyright?

hooradiation · 01-07-2011 10:07am

Naikon wrote: »

The problem is that teachers tend to focus only what comes up on the test.

As opposed to?

Monty Burnz · 01-07-2011 11:55am

hooradiation wrote: »

As opposed to?

As opposed to teaching the subject area.

A real-world example: Studying English for the LC in the 90s - learning by rote about a few poems. Teacher breaks down the poem into chunks, explaining that a certain stanza features 'personification'.

The student goes into the exam, sees this poem/poet is on the exam, and trots out the various relevant bits they have learned off, gets a A1, and goes home.

But does the student know personification next time they see it in a different context? Can they see a film, or read a story, and realise that the director/author is using personification to make a certain point? Typically, no. What is more likely to happen is that they hear someone talking about personification, and they go "oh, yeah, that's 'The Lovesong of J Alfred Prufrock', right?"

I've seen it time and time again - teaching the LC exam (at least as it was when I did it) tests memory more than anything else. It teaches very little about critical thinking, and very little that is generalisable unless the student has the insight to realise it themselves.

hooradiation · 01-07-2011 12:49pm

that's all well and good, but then how do we reasonably then asses what kind of grasp the 55 thousand or so students that sit the leaving certificate every year have of said subject? Do we examine them, continuous assessment?

If we examine them, then we have the same problem - the LC is still the gateway to 3rd level education and as such people will learn for the exam because that is the least effort for the most reward.
Continuous assessment falls into a similar problem - any time I've been under such a system there were a couple of milestone events (reports, projects etc) and it's quite possible to just specalise in what you need for that particular milestone then, as in the LC, dump it afterwards.

While i can understand that "teaching the subject area" is an admirable goal, i do think it would be the best way to do thing, don't get me wrong. But, I do not see how we're going to apply that in any kind of effective way.
If you have a plan or can point to somewhere else that has managed to reach this that'd be awesome, but this frankly while the culture of learning by rote is a problem i believe it's

A] over stated, at least in the west. If you want to see a proper system where people just learn for the exam, look at china and other far east nations. They take it to an extreme to the point where rampant plagiarizing at university level is refereed to as "heavy referencing".

B] ultimately inherent in any education system as long as learning has a reward other than for learnings sake.

Monty Burnz · 01-07-2011 1:03pm

hooradiation wrote: »

that's all well and good, but then how do we reasonably then asses what kind of grasp the 55 thousand or so students that sit the leaving certificate every year have of said subject? Do we examine them, continuous assessment?

You're right, it's not a simple issue with a simple solution. Continuous assessment is probably a good idea, but it can bring other issues. The Leaving Cert is ruthlessly fair, no doubt - but the question is whether it is the best means of testing the educational achievement of students. I think we can do better.

"Government is dumbing down schools" says former Director of Education

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